Just spoke to someone who mentioned he realized anatta and has stabilised it. Previously he has gone through the I AM.

But on further discussion it turns out what he refers to 'anatta' is what I call 'non-doership'. I told him,

"what's important is that in the midst of vivid manifestation, like hearing a sound, seeing a scenery, it can be realized that 'Awareness' and 'Witnessing' is none other than the sound, the colors, and so on, and there is no background agent, knower, seer, hearer,. this will lead to the collapsing of an agent and Witness into vivid luminous manifestation without needing to enter a state of nothingness

in the midst of vivid manifestation nirvana is seen, like in bahiya sutta. in the seen only the seen without you in terms of that and that is the end of suffering

there is a realization involving the complete seamlessness of subject-action-object, realizing that there is no seer besides seeing besides seen, the dualistic structure gets seen through and collapses

the actualization of anatta will dissolve any centerpoint or Witness

is your no-mind experience like 'there is no cold or heat' stable or only passing glimpses in meditation? is the sense of dualistic subject/object witnessing persistent in daily experience?"

He mentioned that his experience of no-mind of "there's just experience no one experiencing anything just experience" is only fleeting glimipses throughout the day, whereas his sense of Subject/Object Witnessing is persistent throughout his daily experience. Also in his glimpses of no-mind, "What I experienced was when I let go of all Concepts ideas everything what remained was experience alone. And suffering truly ended there"

I told him the experience no-mind is not the same as the realization of anatta.

All phenomena happening by itself spontaneously and causally (via dependent origination) on its own, without the sense of doership or control, is not what I call anatta realization.

I told him, "i see, in that case i would consider that you are experiencing as non-doership, but the realization of anatta has not arisen.. once the realization of anatta in the sense of complete seeing through of the construct and sense of a seer-seeing-seen, the no-mind will become effortless and the tendency to fall back to subject-object witnessing will dissolve

the realization is as i described in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/10/my-commentary-on-bahiya-sutta.html

and https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-wind-is-blowing.html"

He asked, "
Ok. So this is your recommendation of where to start correct?"

I told him, 

"contemplate on bahiya sutta and challenge any sense of a seer, witnessing, seeing, hearing, as existing by its own side as anything other than the sound, color, sensation, etc. until a sudden realization arises that what you call 'witnessing' and 'awareness'... or 'seeing' is only colors, 'hearing' is only sound, never a seer or hearer beside

i think these links will clarify things for you, https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/11/no-mind-and-anatta-focusing-on-insight.html and also the article and comments by thusness at the comments section can be helpful - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html


I do not have the slightest trace of subject/object duality for about the past 8 years after the realization of anatta. Before realization of anatta I was switching between Witness and glimpses of No Mind for some time.
7 Responses
  1. Anonymous Says:


  2. Anonymous Says:

    One must be very careful not to let the teaching of anatta to be used to bypass vasanas ..... Ultimate freedom is the release of ones real being forever frm samsara(samsara = entrapment in vasanas/samkharas/tendencies).

    Even then, freedom of 'soul' frm karma may simply be the beginning stage of wat human is capable of. Beyong this 'human path' , after soul being release frm samsara, there may be higher stage of 'pure God consciousness' . (Note that the way u see God-Consciousness ,as i see it, may be errorneous, for u simply put it below non self stages)

  3. Soh Says:

    I have gone through all those god realization stages so I completely disagree with you on any beyond.

    Anatta comes with the realization of no beyond. If one has notions of beyond one has not realised a trace of anatta.

    This is a good read: https://app.box.com/s/7u47emus4osjxzpnqs03

    Also Simpo wrote well about ten years ago:

    Just my opinion only,
    I think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.
    To me, 'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect. The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage, there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.
    However, at Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required.


    The author say that thought is a problem. It may not be entirely accurate.
    IMO, when visual vision and thought imagery arise, there is a tendency to compartmentalise certain sections as entities, focus or objects. Next, there is a desire to modify that section. For example, in the visual sense, from the environment you are engaging a conversation with someone. The mind desires to change the 'person' into what it imagines will be the desired outcome. Example, you want to make the person think the way you think and so on so forth. The mind fails to see that this is 'hit and miss' and that the changes is really not dependent on the desire to modify the subject. Rather, it has got to do with the 'person' own willing or not.
    So... to me, thought is the not the problem. Instead, the desire to modify and change 'what is' is the cause of suffering.
    Also, when we say that we are not the thoughts or the body, unconsciously we have separated 'phemonena' from a 'untouchable' portion of ourself.
    The difference at the non-duality stage is that, no attempt is made... Sensations are left as they are...
    At the I AM/eternal witness stage, there is a seeking for the place beyond thoughts.
    Also, at the I AM/eternal witness, no-suffering is preferred over suffering. There is no understanding that there is really NO blissful place that is beyond pain. When there is pain, there is nothing beyond it too.
    So at the I AM/eternal witness stage, attempts may be employed by the mind to get rid of the pain... to go a place beyond the pain. The understanding that 'sensation and pain' is inseparable from Presence/Buddha Nature is not there yet.

  4. Anonymous Says:

    Yr so-called 'no beyond' is simply proof u hvent 'experienced' any 'beyond' at all ...

    But its understandable - the soul clothed in human form,subject to the brain,nervous system's perception,chances to perceive such essence beyond nameform is very slim..

    And i believe u hve totally misunderstood (again,its understandable,for many2 others r in the same boat) the essence of ' soul-realization ' ....

  5. Anonymous Says:

    " Just as the scabbard hides the sword, the outer shell covers the tamarind fruit, the coat covers the body, so also these five sheaths hide the Atman. Hence the significant name Kosha. Just as the Kosakar worm gets itself bound in its nest, so also the Jiva gets himself bound within the Koshas."

  6. Soh Says:

    No, you don't understand.

    I have gone through phases of Self-Realization where there is doubtless realization of the I AM that is felt to be beyond everything. This realisation is as described here: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2013/04/jax-message.html

    Only in later realizations is there the realisation that any "beyond" is illusion. That means the I AM is just another aggregate.

    Anyway there is no point arguing about this. You are going by mere faith and belief at the moment. Just go through the stages of realisations and see for yourself. I have seen for myself all the stages of realisation.

  7. Soh Says:

    If you read that link closely you'll see that anatta is not a repudiation of I AM or Presence but the removal of wrong views with regards to it.


    "Me: I see. What do you mean by needless once seen through. Needless to seek beyond?

    Thusness: Yes only when view is dualistic and inherent it appears so. But that quality and dimension of realization must remain."


    "Thusness also wrote:

    The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must have first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights"