"By his fifteenth year one burning question became the core around which his spiritual strivings revolved: "If, as the sutras say, our Essential-nature is Bodhi (perfection), why did all Buddhas have to strive for enlightenment and perfection?" His dissatisfaction with the answers he received at Mount Hiei led him eventually to Eisai-zenji, who had brought the teachings of the Rinzai sect of Zen Buddhism from China to Japan. Eisai's reply to Dogen's question was: "No Buddha is conscious of its existence [that is, of this Essential-nature], while cats and oxen [that is the grossly deluded] are aware of it." In other words, Buddhas, precisely because they are Buddhas, no longer think of having or not having a Perfect-nature; only the deluded think in such terms. At these words Dogen had an inner realization which dissolved his deep-seated doubt."

-- recommended reading, Yasutani-roshi's Introductory Lectures on Zen Training (it's a practical text on Zazen and Koan training)

This reminded me of what Thusness wrote to me in 2007:

(10:10 PM) Thusness:    before experiencing non-dual, one cannot fully understand spontaneous arising.
(10:11 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:11 PM) Thusness:    non-dual first then spontaneous arising and emptiness is deeper than that.
(10:11 PM) Thusness:    it is not to say it is complete and perfect
(10:12 PM) Thusness:    this is fall back to the background.
(10:12 PM) Thusness:    now if u think carefully, isn't it the cognitive thought in action?
(10:13 PM) Thusness:    it is the cognitive mind extrapolating it.
(10:13 PM) Thusness:    one should not react to the teachings
(10:14 PM) Thusness:    know emptiness without image, without concepts
(10:15 PM) Thusness:    don't think of existence or non-existence
(10:15 PM) Thusness:    don't think that it is perfect
(10:15 PM) Thusness:    don't assume that it is imperfect
(10:15 PM) Thusness:    nothing of this sort.
(10:15 PM) Thusness:    just arising and ceasing when condition is.
(10:16 PM) Thusness:    then true naturalness will be experienced.
(10:16 PM) Thusness:    there is nothing perfect about our nature, it is just so.  Just our nature.
(10:16 PM) Thusness:    luminosity and empty
(10:16 PM) Thusness:    :)
(10:17 PM) Thusness:    when condition is not there, nothing is there.
(10:17 PM) Thusness:    there is no manifestation.
(10:17 PM) Thusness:    neither existence nor non existence
(10:18 PM) Thusness:    however X has already entered the path of prajna, ur center called it wu-wei fa.
(10:18 PM) Thusness:    that is spontaneously arises, naturalness according to yuan.
(10:18 PM) Thusness:    but why can't sleep?
(10:18 PM) Thusness:    :P
(10:18 PM) AEN:    background?
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    no what i meant why can't she sleep if naturalness is already there?
(10:19 PM) AEN:    sinking to the source?
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    if condition arises, why there is no sleep?
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    just sleep
(10:19 PM) Thusness:    coz all the conditions for sleep already manifest but she still can't sleep.
(10:20 PM) AEN:    brb
(10:20 PM) Thusness:    becoz there is another cause preventing her from entering sleep working at the pre-conscious level.
(10:20 PM) AEN:    back
(10:20 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:20 PM) AEN:    what kind of other cause
(10:21 PM) Thusness:    the experience of "AMness"
(10:21 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:21 PM) Thusness:    sinking back to the source.
(10:21 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    din u see she said about the xu kong (empty space)?
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    as an illustration.
(10:22 PM) AEN:    ya
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    anyway just sui yuan. :)
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    she is already 50+?
(10:22 PM) AEN:    yup
(10:24 PM) Thusness:    just sui yuan.  But remember for ur practice, the practice of wu wei fa is like the xin jing.  But understanding of emptiness must be like what i tell u.
(10:25 PM) Thusness:    not because it is perfect or whatsoever, it is because the nature is so.
(10:25 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:25 PM) Thusness:    this must be the understanding.
(10:25 PM) Thusness:    then c whether got yuan to experience non-dual...eheeh
(10:26 PM) Thusness:    then fuse the 2 understandings.
(10:26 PM) Thusness:    and experience intuitively..:)
(10:28 PM) Thusness:    now what is the most unique understanding u have all these years?
(10:30 PM) AEN:    erm i dunno leh lol
(10:30 PM) AEN:    i guess after i experience then it will become 'unique' :P
(10:30 PM) Thusness:    lol
(10:30 PM) Thusness:    then what sort of knowledge u gathered so far?
(10:31 PM) AEN:    non duality, impermanence, things like tat? naturalness?
(10:31 PM) Thusness:    what is non-duality?
(10:31 PM) AEN:    no self, no subject object division? no background?
(10:31 PM) Thusness:    yes. :)
(10:32 PM) Thusness:    non-duality is buddhism no-self
(10:32 PM) Thusness:    no-self is a better word to me...ehehehe
(10:32 PM) AEN:    oic haha
(10:32 PM) Thusness:    there is really no-self
(10:33 PM) Thusness:    and mindfulness purpose is to allow us to experience that
(10:33 PM) Thusness:    why so?
(10:33 PM) Thusness:    because there is no symbols
(10:33 PM) Thusness:    because there is no content
(10:33 PM) Thusness:    it is raw and bare attention.
(10:33 PM) Thusness:    and 'self' is an image
(10:33 PM) Thusness:    it is about content
(10:34 PM) Thusness:    therefore when one is raw and imageless, yet there is knowing
(10:34 PM) Thusness:    when this experience is sustained, there is absolutely no sense of self at all.
(10:34 PM) Thusness:    this is the first level
(10:35 PM) Thusness:    but there is still no experience of non-duality level of no-self
(10:35 PM) Thusness:    until the manifestation alone is understood as really the source itself.
(10:35 PM) Thusness:    :)
(10:36 PM) Thusness:    then not only is mirror bright is fully understood, the breaking of the mirror is also understood.
(10:36 PM) Thusness:    so this is only part of what i have always said.
(10:36 PM) Thusness:    i always say there are 3 stages
(10:37 PM) Thusness:    no-self, emptiness, spontaneous arising
(10:37 PM) Thusness:    no-self is non-duality
(10:37 PM) Thusness:    then emptiness
(10:37 PM) Thusness:    u notice from beginning till now, i have always said that our nature is no where to be found.
(10:38 PM) Thusness:    no who
(10:38 PM) Thusness:    and no when.
(10:38 PM) Thusness:    nothing like that
(10:38 PM) Thusness:    when i said emptiness, it is always so and when condition arise, manifestation is.
(10:38 PM) Thusness:    this is the emptiness i am toking about.
(10:38 PM) Thusness:    nothing about complete perfect...
(10:39 PM) Thusness:    i don't like to use these terms.
(10:39 PM) Thusness:    have u seen me using such terms?
(10:40 PM) Thusness:    instead i always say it is not that great
(10:40 PM) Thusness:    :)
(10:40 PM) AEN:    but complete perfect is just used to explained there is no need to attain anything right
(10:40 PM) Thusness:    precisely
(10:40 PM) Thusness:    there is no attainment. :)
(10:41 PM) Thusness:    because we are free from beginning and there is no origination and there is no-self
(10:41 PM) Thusness:    it is more of suffering when we 'seek'
(10:41 PM) Thusness:    there is nothing inside nor outside
(10:41 PM) Thusness:    nothing about complete or incomplete
(10:42 PM) Thusness:    can we say the fire is in the matchstick?
(10:42 PM) Thusness:    or the 'tree' is in a seed?
(10:42 PM) Thusness:    this is viewing 'entity'
(10:42 PM) Thusness:    and not understanding the importance of conditions
(10:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness:    emptiness is supposed to break this view. 


(5:54 PM) AEN:    oh i said "actually the sutras also said things like our intrinsic nature is wholly complete and therefore no attainment or something rite"
(5:55 PM) Thusness:    yes every place and everywhere. :P
(5:55 PM) Thusness:    but not from practitioners. :)
(5:56 PM) Thusness:    if we want to be a true practitioner, we must know whether it is the karmic propensities that did so or we truly experience it as so.
(5:56 PM) Thusness:    when we are toking about our experience, we cannot say so.
(5:56 PM) Thusness:    otherwise we only retrogress by being unmindful.
(5:57 PM) Thusness:    letting the propensities react without knowing it.
(5:58 PM) Thusness:    that is, one merely "know one small part of it" but just say out the "whole phrase of it", however there is no experience whatsoever.
(5:58 PM) Thusness:    this will prevent one from experiencing.
(5:58 PM) Thusness:    that is why i tell u not that i don't want to tell u too much.
(5:58 PM) AEN:    "“Virtuous man, one who practices Complete Enlightenment of the causal ground of the Tathagata realizes that [birth and extinction] are like an illusory flower in the sky. Thus there is no continuance of birth and death and no body or mind that is subject to birth and death. This nonexistence of [birth and death and body and mind] is so not as a consequence of contrived effort. It is so by its intrinsic nature.

“The awareness [of their nonexistence] is like empty space. That which is aware of the empty space is like the appearance of the illusory flower. However, one cannot say that the nature of this awareness is nonexistent. Eliminating both existence and nonexistence is in accordance with pure enlightenment.

“Why is it so? Because the nature of empty space is ever unmoving. Likewise, there is neither arising nor perishing within the Tathagatagarbha. [8] It is free from conceptual knowledge and views. Like the nature of dharmadhatu, which is ultimate, wholly complete, and pervades all ten directions, such is the Dharma practice [of the Tathagata] of the causal ground."
(5:59 PM) AEN:    i mean i heard such verses from sutras :P
(5:59 PM) Thusness:    the knowledge of it prevent u from experiencing it.
(5:59 PM) AEN:    oic
(5:59 PM) AEN:    "
There is no place where illusions vanish,
and there is no attainment
in accomplishing the Buddha Path,
for the intrinsic nature is already wholly complete.
(6:00 PM) Thusness:    when X say the intrinsic nature is such and such therefore it is not necessary to be so and so and allow spontaneous arising.
(6:00 PM) Thusness:    that already is propensities reacting and where is the freedom?
(6:00 PM) Thusness:    instead a true teacher and master should not even say yes to X.
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    directly reprimand it and say no!
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    not even phrasing or anything.
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    first it is wrongly affirming one's progress.
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    second has the stage been thoroughly tested?
(6:02 PM) Thusness:    it only led to misunderstanding and allow the mind to overlook and be unmindful.
(6:02 PM) Thusness:    preventing one from having true insight.
(6:02 PM) Thusness:    this is no good.
(6:02 PM) AEN:    oic
(6:03 PM) Thusness:    for example u cannot say because non-duality is so and so therefore u do this.
(6:03 PM) Thusness:    this would be like nub then. :P
(6:03 PM) AEN:    hahahaha
(6:04 PM) Thusness:    :)
(6:04 PM) Thusness:    u c the similarity? Because one is ur teacher, u have respect for her and therefore discriminate.  But the same reason still apply.
(6:04 PM) AEN:    lol
(6:04 PM) AEN:    icic
(6:05 PM) Thusness:    xin jing is so deep that only the disciple with great wisdom understand it. :)
(6:05 PM) Thusness:    not to over simplify it.
(6:06 PM) AEN:    but actually she never said something like not practising mah.. but rather she said practising during daily living and not discriminate
(6:06 PM) Thusness:    yes.  She said because intrinsic nature is so and so, therefore...
(6:06 PM) Thusness:    it is not like that
(6:07 PM) Thusness:    because she is getting old and therefore....then she realised that our nature is so and so....
(6:07 PM) Thusness:    din buddha in kalama sutra said don't take it just like that
(6:07 PM) Thusness:    it is not a form of deduction.
(6:08 PM) Thusness:    it must be intuitively experienced.
(6:08 PM) Thusness:    in non-duality, the transparency is a crystal clear presence.
(6:08 PM) Thusness:    that is, the phenomena, the arising, the ceasing is the luminosity itself.
(6:09 PM) Thusness:    a phenomenon is an arising and never remain
(6:09 PM) Thusness:    so where is the presence?
(6:09 PM) Thusness:    what is the luminosity?
(6:10 PM) Thusness:    understanding the intrinsic nature by directly experiencing it...it is not easy before experiencing and stabilizing non-dual experience (no-self)
(6:10 PM) Thusness:    so everything is really complete
(6:11 PM) Thusness:    but unless we know what is "everything" in dharma as fa
(6:11 PM) Thusness:    and know that everything is really the source
(6:11 PM) Thusness:    and know that nothing can be separated but for explanation sake
(6:12 PM) Thusness:    that condition can never be separated and has never been separated
(6:12 PM) AEN:    oic.. hey i gtg in a minute..
(6:12 PM) Thusness:    then dharma is from beginning already complete.
(6:12 PM) Thusness:    and there is no ending to the experience. :)
(6:12 PM) Thusness:    there can be no karmic propensities but there is always condition.
(6:13 PM) Thusness:    and condition cannot be separated from source
(6:13 PM) Thusness:    they are one.
(6:13 PM) Thusness:    therefore it is not becoz of completeness of source therefore that
(6:13 PM) Thusness:    fa is the source itself in actual experience. 

(5:45 PM) AEN:    its her.e.. http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=210722
(5:45 PM) AEN:  

Yes Longchen,

Very well said. There never was a gap, it can't be. It is one whole flow and nothing else. When there is one, there is two. When the one subsides, nothing isn't the one Reality.

Clear transparency of the One Reality also has its problem. An illumination into the non-duality without certain pre-requisite can cause problems. There is always habitual propensities that will again make this experience an object of attachment. It can cause a person to go without sleep as the body is incapable of dealing with this new found experience. Many have mistaken this to be a heightening of awareness and took it as a natural progression. This is not true. Whenever this happens, know that it is due to attachment. Learn how to let go of everything until a tranquil calmness arise, it has got to do with our thought patterns, there must come this willingness to let go of our body completely, then our thoughts and the experience of presence...completely letting go from moment to moment...the senses and thoughts can be shut by this art of letting go and non-attachment. Total letting go and
(5:46 PM) AEN:    Total letting go and vivid Presence must fuse into one.

Practice during the waking state till the there is no single trace of doubt that there is absolutely no one there, no inner and no outer, just the incredible realness and vividness of the manifestation. The experience of non-dual in the waking state. Witnessing dreams and there is no witness, just dreams is different. Dealing with the more subtle states and pre-conscious propensities require one to master this art of non-attachment, non-action. There is no conscious way of dealing with the more subtle states, just stabilized the experience and allow the momentum to carry us naturally into the dream and deep sleep. Sleep well. Smile
(5:47 PM) Thusness:    yes
(5:47 PM) Thusness:    very clear what
(5:47 PM) Thusness:    :P
(5:47 PM) AEN:    hmm ya
(5:48 PM) Thusness:    that is precisely what i meant.  'Be' Dreamless.  The cognitive mind cannot know.
(5:49 PM) Thusness:    There is no conscious way of dealing with the more subtle states, just stabilize the experience and allow the momentum to carry us naturally into the dream and deep sleep.
(5:50 PM) Thusness:    no-conscious way...don't maintain that 'witnessing'
(5:51 PM) Thusness:    the conscious mind will only come to know about it when the 7 factors of enlightenment is enhanced during waking state.
(5:51 PM) Thusness:    That is the problem faced by X also.
(5:52 PM) AEN:    hmm in non dual sleep, luminosity is experienced as nothingness?
(5:52 PM) Thusness:    the 'jue' went deep into her.
(5:53 PM) Thusness:    being subtly attached to the 'Witnessing', she is unable to 'be' when the conditions of sleep manifest.
(5:53 PM) Thusness:    I hope JonLS know what i meant. :)
(5:54 PM) Thusness:    so that 'emptiness nature' will be his next stage. :)
(5:55 PM) Thusness:    even in deep samadhi and absorption, there is no knowing at all.
(5:55 PM) Thusness:    only when out, u know.
(5:55 PM) AEN:    oic..

(5:57 PM) AEN:    hmm i recently found another article written by X saying something like jue/mindfulness is like a mirror reflecting all things as it is but not nothing sticks on the mirror
(5:58 PM) AEN:    among those articles i kept in 2002
(5:58 PM) Thusness:    still not good enough.
(5:58 PM) Thusness:    c now she understand there is no mirror at all.
(5:59 PM) Thusness:    she somehow know the problem but isn't clear.
(5:59 PM) AEN:    but mindfulness is like that right.. the venerable gunaratana wrote in mindfulness in plain english.. mindfulness mirror thought
(5:59 PM) AEN:    ?
(5:59 PM) AEN:    she know the problem?
(5:59 PM) Thusness:    yes but u must understand that u r not toking about mindfulness alone.
(5:59 PM) AEN:    hmm anyway i was saying ven gunaratana said mindfulness is mirror thought, reflecting things as it is, the only problem with this analogy is mindfulness is "participatory" with no subject object separation
(5:59 PM) Thusness:    u are toking about non-duality which is a very subtle state.
(5:59 PM) AEN:    hmm wat u mean
(6:00 PM) Thusness:    mindfulness is a technique
(6:00 PM) Thusness:    a way for u to experience ur pristine nature
(6:00 PM) Thusness:    non-duality aka no-self is the peak of that experience.
(6:00 PM) AEN:    oic
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    when u r toking about mindfulness, it can range from stage 4 - 5.
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    din i write about stage 4 as mirror bright?
(6:01 PM) AEN:    ya
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    i have written so clear :P
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    ehehehhe
(6:01 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:01 PM) AEN:    actually stage 1 and 2 no mindfulness ah
(6:01 PM) Thusness:    yes
(6:02 PM) Thusness:    but there is experience of Presence.
(6:02 PM) Thusness:    a mirror but not attached to the reflection.
(6:02 PM) Thusness:    to there is no mirror!
(6:03 PM) Thusness:    only manifestation alone is.
(6:03 PM) AEN:    oic
(6:03 PM) Thusness:    completely break that mirror.
(6:03 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:03 PM) Thusness:    then that is non-dual.
(6:03 PM) AEN:    oic
(6:04 PM) Thusness:    the conditions are there for X if she wrote what u said.
(6:04 PM) Thusness:    if she has the 'yuan' she will understand.
(6:04 PM) AEN:    icic
(6:05 PM) Thusness:    give her the english version better and let her decode herself instead. :P
(6:05 PM) Thusness:    or let her write the next article.
(6:05 PM) Thusness:    there is no-mirror....hahaha

(6:05 PM) AEN:    give english version better ah
(6:05 PM) AEN:    wat u mean the no mirror
(6:06 PM) Thusness:    no mirror is stage 5 lor.
(6:06 PM) Thusness:    i mean let ur X write the next article and the title is "There is no mirror"
(6:06 PM) Thusness:    :)
(6:07 PM) AEN:    huh let X write? but i send her all 6 stages?
(6:07 PM) AEN:    anyway i scanned in the
jue (awareness) thing yesterday for nub
(6:07 PM) Thusness:    ic. :)
(6:07 PM) AEN:    Initiated a file transfer
(6:07 PM) AEN:    the article i just mention
(6:07 PM) AEN:    wait wat do u mean
(6:07 PM)    Transfer of "2002Jue.jpg" is complete.
(6:07 PM) AEN:    by let X write about the title no mirror :P
(6:08 PM) Thusness:    i mean if she break-through lah
(6:08 PM) Thusness:    that will be the next article.
(6:08 PM) Thusness:    :P
(6:09 PM) Thusness:    I got to go for another meeting now. :)
(6:09 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(6:09 PM) AEN:    ok cya
(6:09 PM) Thusness:    cya

(6:17 PM) AEN:    “Mindfulness is participatory observation. The meditator is both participant and observer at one and the same time. If one watches one's emotions or physical sensations, one is feeling them at that very same moment. Mindfulness is not an intellectual awareness. It is just awareness. The mirror-thought metaphor breaks down here. Mindfulness is objective, but it is not cold or unfeeling. It is the wakeful experience of life, an alert participation in the ongoing process of living. “
(6:31 PM) AEN:    how is stage 2 different from mindfulness?
(7:42 PM) AEN:    hi do join bohiruci’s skype on 9 p.m, discussing diamond sutra, if u can :)
(8:25 PM) Thusness:    Mindfulness is participatory observation. The meditator is both participant and observer at one and the same time. If one watches one's emotions or physical sensations, one is feeling them at that very same moment. Mindfulness is not an intellectual awareness. It is just awareness. The mirror-thought metaphor breaks down here. Mindfulness is objective, but it is not cold or unfeeling.
(8:25 PM) Thusness:    It is the wakeful experience of life, an alert participation in the ongoing process of living. “
(8:25 PM) Thusness:    This is very good. But there is still trace of duality.
(8:25 PM) AEN:    oic.. how come
(8:26 PM) Thusness:    it is very difficult to go beyond it and say phenomena is it.
(8:26 PM) Thusness:    Therefore what that is taught and proclaimed in lanka is often not realised.
(8:26 PM) AEN:    icic...
(8:27 PM) Thusness:    It is very difficult for one to experience the transparency i m toking about.  Once experienced, all will be very clear.
(8:28 PM) Thusness:    perhaps the only one that can break through is longchen.
(8:28 PM) AEN:    oic...
(8:28 PM) Thusness:    this is if he can non-dual in all three stages and let be.
(8:28 PM) AEN:    i tot jonls is close to emptiness?
(8:28 PM) AEN:    :P
(8:29 PM) Thusness:    then at the waking state, the presence can be so powerful that there is no boundary at all.  The body is a total non-obstruction and the Presence stands out as if consciousness is out of the body and phenomena alone is.
(8:30 PM) Thusness:    that is relative. probably 8 months back longchen is behind but few months back, he progressed. :)  

(11:36 PM) Thusness:    and the practitioner must be clear of what are the most important aspects too.
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    only 5 onwards are important.

(11:38 PM) Thusness:    whatever it is, for the truth of dharma, it must be taught properly.
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    even in the very basic, buddha taught about no-self
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    and to the highest stage, it is also about no-self
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    the mirror bright wisdom is no-self
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    but by jue (awareness) itself, it can easily lead to "I AMness"
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    and this is what happen.
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    fortunately there is the wu wei fa.
(11:40 PM) Thusness:    but it cannot be correctly understood.
(11:40 PM) Thusness:    the 3 stages i told u cannot be bypassed.
(11:40 PM) Thusness:    no-self, emptiness and self-arising.
(11:41 PM) Thusness:    why so?
(11:41 PM) AEN:    erm bcos its required for awakening? lol
(11:42 PM) AEN:    or not just stuck on 'amness'
(11:42 PM) Thusness:    because without knowing that manifestation is the source, one does not know that emptiness is refering to what.
(11:43 PM) Thusness:    the yi qie (everything) is still treated as external.
(11:44 PM) Thusness:    and the
jue (awareness) is internal.
(11:44 PM) Thusness:    this is not enlightenment
(11:44 PM) Thusness:    and there is no true understanding.
(11:44 PM) AEN:    hmm.. no leh its often taught that buddha nature has no inner, outer, or center
(11:44 PM) AEN:    lol
(11:44 PM) Thusness:    that is taught
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    not experienced
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    that is, when ur master teach wu wei fa, almost all experienced it as dual.
(11:46 PM) AEN:    X last time said something like one must have inner awareness, but quickly corrected it saying that actually buddha nature is all pervading and not 'inner', but only spoken bcos of our current ability to understand
(11:46 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    X has not experienced non dual.
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    that is why there is sleeping problem. :P
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    and she must take it as a misunderstanding of consciousness

(11:47 PM) Thusness:    yes. :)
(11:48 PM) Thusness:    this latent problem can only be solved by stage 5 and 6.
(11:48 PM) Thusness:    sleeping problem.
(11:48 PM) Thusness:    this also means that she has not experienced wu wei fa also.
(11:48 PM) Thusness:    contrary to what she wrote.

(11:49 PM) Thusness:    but not to tok about stage.  She misunderstood it as I AMness and 4th stage.
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    when at 5.5, her problem will be solved.
(11:50 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    her yuan must be there. :)
(11:50 PM) AEN:    but she still say "can continue".. saying she tinks there are higher stages? :P
(11:50 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    that is what she think lah
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    anyway not to be little her. :)
(11:51 PM) AEN:    lol
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    just that there is a problem of sleeplessness
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    it is good to tell her when the yuan is there.
(11:52 PM) Thusness:    and the lacking in the teaching must be patched. :)


(4:43 PM) Thusness:    all and almost all will think of it along the line of "I AMness"
(4:44 PM) Thusness:    all are like the grandchildren of "AMness"
(4:44 PM) Thusness:    and that is the root cause of duality.
(4:44 PM) Thusness:    and tat is one of the reason why i do not like zen. :P

(4:48 PM) Thusness:    but if u tell someone it is that simple and mislead ppl into thinking it is it, then that is misleading.
(4:49 PM) Thusness:    all claims simplicity and directness
(4:49 PM) Thusness:    but none know the implication of tendencies.

(4:50 PM) Thusness:    one should not tok too much about buddha nature.
(4:53 PM) Thusness:    if one wants to tok about Buddha Nature, don't tok about pure awareness.
(4:53 PM) Thusness:    the best is to tok about the 3 seals first.
(4:53 PM) Thusness:    and i respect dharma dan. :)
(4:54 PM) Thusness:    the 3 doors enter from there and use it to measure whether u have understood Awareness from these 3 seals.
(4:54 PM) Thusness:    to prevent one from deviation.


(8:54 PM) Thusness:    did buddha talk a lot about our intrinsic nature?
(8:54 PM) Thusness:    instead he spoke of the poisons, the seals, the ignorance
(8:55 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:56 PM) AEN:    but he tok about luminosity rite
(8:56 PM) Thusness:    who?
(8:56 PM) AEN:    i mean buddha
(8:56 PM) Thusness:    yeah...
(8:56 PM) Thusness:    but buddha's teaching is very unique
(8:56 PM) Thusness:    and scientific
(8:57 PM) Thusness:    and he precisely know the result of the outcome for a particular practice


(11:29 PM) Thusness:    when we say there is a background that does not change, we are falling into this trap.
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    so when there is stress, u cannot say that something behind is always not stressed.
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    this is an illusion
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    u cannot say that u have insight into the unchanging
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    instead, u must 'see' the condition for the arising of stress.
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    otherwise where is the solution?
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    when u practice, u practice to c.
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    that is the clarity of buddha's nature.
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    that is, it is pain.
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    clearly so.
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    it must be as clear as it can be.
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    arises and ceases
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    get it?
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    now the clarity is never affected
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    why?
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    because there is pain
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    otherwise it becomes dull.
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    something is wrong
(11:33 PM) Thusness:    or it becomes a stone
(11:33 PM) Thusness:    that is why mindfulness leads to enlightenment
(11:34 PM) Thusness:    now when we c this, we do not have image
(11:34 PM) Thusness:    we cannot have
(11:34 PM) Thusness:    because it is not anything at all
(11:34 PM) Thusness:    there is no way to know
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    but if u say all those attributes, it becomes predictable
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    it becomes something
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    it has an image
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    it is a background
(11:35 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    when one experience something like the background, it is a form of samadhi
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    it is a merge with the image
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    but if one arises and ceases without background, then that is insight
(11:37 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:37 PM) AEN:    u mean stage 1 and 2 is samadhi?
(11:37 PM) AEN:    but u said theres difference rite
(11:37 PM) AEN:    between samadhi and stage 1
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    yeah
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    what is important is to have insight, the directness until u reaches non-dual
(11:38 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    then when non-dual is peak, there is self-liberation.
(11:38 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    however self liberation has 2 very important characteristics
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    one is completely non-attached
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    the other is fearlessness

(4:56 PM) Thusness: Buddha never view our buddha nature as a background
(4:57 PM) Thusness: is there a need to tok about no-self, impermanence and DO if buddha nature is the background?
(4:58 PM) AEN: no self, impermanence and DO means buddha nature is not a background?
(4:59 PM) Thusness: is there a need to tok about the seals and DO if buddha nature is a background?
(4:59 PM) AEN: no
(4:59 PM) Thusness: the emptiness nature of luminosity is most difficult to see.
(5:00 PM) Thusness: karmic propensity is a spell, don't just laugh at it. :)
(5:00 PM) Thusness: this habitual tendency blinds and bonds us life after life.
(5:01 PM) Thusness: so we should not act smart and overlook it.



[6/8/18, 11:01:43 PM] John Tan: Then presence is also empty.
[6/8/18, 11:02:33 PM] John Tan: When u say urine is as perfect and radiance, u r simply expressing relatively.
[6/8/18, 11:02:51 PM] John Tan: Otherwise it becomes subsuming
[6/8/18, 11:03:00 PM] John Tan: No difference from advaita.
[6/8/18, 11:03:38 PM] John Tan: Freedom means freedom from extreme.
[6/8/18, 11:04:34 PM] John Tan: When u see just goods and there is a definite ultimate characteristic then it is being trapped in conventionally defined characteristic and thinking it as ultimate.
[6/8/18, 11:05:21 PM] John Tan: When u investigate u will realize whatever good do not exist beyond mere conventionality.
[6/8/18, 11:06:20 PM] John Tan: U feel that it is true, it is perfect, it is all encompassing means it is worth attached to also.

[6/8/18, 11:07:34 PM] John Tan: It is just different level of seeing the same perfection.
[6/8/18, 11:08:38 PM] John Tan: So although I do not quite agree with Jared on some issues but on this I m in agreement with his understanding.
[6/8/18, 11:09:01 PM] John Tan: So first u must know clearly what is meant by inherent.
[6/8/18, 11:09:36 PM] John Tan: In this case there is already coming into existence with cause.
[6/8/18, 11:09:47 PM] John Tan: Without
[6/8/18, 11:10:29 PM] John Tan: Such experience is not new actually ... I hv such insight in p1 and p2 (thusness stage 1 and 2)
[6/8/18, 11:10:48 PM] John Tan: In fact I wrote a Chinese poem abt it.
[6/8/18, 11:11:05 PM] John Tan: When I was like 17-18 lol.
[6/8/18, 11:12:31 PM] John Tan: When our mind hear untainted, purity...etc, we think of characteristic.
[6/8/18, 11:12:38 PM] John Tan: Even the translator
[6/8/18, 11:13:02 PM] John Tan: However what meant to b expressed is freedom from extremes.
[6/8/18, 11:14:50 PM] John Tan: We must b careful not to mix experiential of radiance and intensity of it with emptiness
[6/8/18, 11:15:43 PM] John Tan: When u see it as perfect from one side, that is extreme.
[6/8/18, 11:16:49 PM] John Tan: It is not moving all to the good or subsuming all to one source or to some perfect characteristics...
[6/8/18, 11:17:11 PM] John Tan: Rather it is seeing through them

[6/8/18, 11:35:34 PM] John Tan: Means that experience of radiance presence
[6/8/18, 11:35:53 PM] John Tan: Is the cause of the formation of proliferation.
[6/8/18, 11:36:18 PM] John Tan: It can be extremely blissful, clean, radiance
[6/8/18, 11:36:39 PM] John Tan: Because consciousness expands
[6/8/18, 11:36:49 PM] John Tan: Or altered state
[6/8/18, 11:37:00 PM] John Tan: But that is different from wisdom.
[6/8/18, 11:44:28 PM] John Tan: However dzogchen or all creator king is not wrong in talking about the natural state beyond path, naturally perfected.
[6/8/18, 11:45:53 PM] John Tan: But because it is translated or understood from a defiled mind, it is not easy to understand.
[6/8/18, 11:46:47 PM] John Tan: We can say we understand but if u ask urself truthfully u will realize we don't.
[6/8/18, 11:46:54 PM] John Tan: How can that be?
[6/8/18, 11:48:14 PM] John Tan: If one neither hv experienced the state of mind free from defilement and experience even the 3 worlds were to destroy right in front of us, how r we to understand the state of Buddha.
[6/8/18, 11:48:59 PM] John Tan: U can't even get beyond altered state
[6/8/18, 11:49:15 PM] John Tan: What is so perfect and beyond path.
[6/8/18, 11:50:46 PM] John Tan: The mind that is beyond traversing is vajra, free and unmoved, so don't b misled.
Labels: | edit post
0 Responses