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Shared with someone who realised anatta and asked me what I mean by I AM, its difference with anatta, and also about what follows anatta. (He himself has went through I AM to non dual to anatta, so it is not that he is not aware of these distinctions but he is just clarifying my terminologies)
"By the I AM realization I don't mean seeing through the illusion of subject-action-object duality. However the I AM actualization itself is nondual.
In that moment of realization, through asking 'Who am I?' one redirects attention and traces back the radiance into the Source. Which is an absolute certainty of Existence, or Beingness. In that oceanic all pervading Presence, there is no subject-object duality, there is no knower-knowing-known... it is not a knower knowing existence, there's just Existence, the knower is the knowingness is the beingness, there is only pure self-knowing Presence-Awareness itself. Awareness aware of itself is awareness being itself. No duality.
But due to uninvestigated ignorance and a dualistic paradigm, when one compares that taste of Mind to other sense doors and manifestations, lets say a conceptual thought pops up the next moment, then one subtly recalls the previous moment of the non-dual authentication of pure Beingness, that ignorant framework then structures and compares both experiences in terms of subject and object. In other words, it treats the previous non-dual authentication of pure Beingness as 'Ultimate Subject', and the subsequent conceptual or sensory phenomena as 'objects passing by within the background of the Ultimate Subject' and the background appears to be an infinite void container or like a canvas for the painting to appear in. Such a structure is based on ignorance. It is also not an accurate representation of the actual authentication of I AMness, which is a non-dual foreground 'happening'.
Now, when we realise anatta, the subject-action-object, seer-seeing-seen, hearer-hearing-heard, doer-doing-deed structure and framework and paradigm is seen through. So when seeing scenery, seeing is just the sceneries is just colors without seer, when hearing sound, just sounds, so on and so forth... no agent, not even a seeing besides colors and so on for all other senses.
Does this mean we then deny the I AM? We do not deny the Pure Beingness because as we have seen, it is just another non-dual moment of authenticating Mind, it is a moment or manifestation of Mind as a foreground manifestation. It is only misinterpreted to mean a hidden ultimate background. There is as you said, nothing hidden at all.
After anatta, the equal luminous intensity of Mind is not only found in the Mind door, but in all other manifestations, including a conceptual thought, including all the five senses, the colors, sights, sounds, taste, touch, smells, tactile sensations, all vividly reveals as Presencing effortlessly and with vivid intensity. Nothing is denied. Only the view is refined and this refining of view leads to the effortless and full blown and non-referential taste of Mind in No-Mind in all encounters and manifestations. Before maturing this insight, one cannot help but be efforting and referencing back to a source. Anatta is the key and gateway to effortless and full instant presence.
· 14m · Edited
Soh Wei YuAdmin
So when I said I AM realization is important it is not the same as anatta realization, but it is still important because it is the first time you have the direct realization and taste of the non-dual luminous Presence, except it is initially restricted to the Mind door. But it is the first time you have this realisation and taste, then the subsequent progress from there is the unfolding of this taste and expanding of it to everything and further investigating, refining the view with direct realisation into the nature of Presence and its relationship with the phenomenal world. That is where nondual anatta comes in. Then from there one further matures into total exertion and twofold emptiness.
Without the I AM realization, one's understanding of spirituality is mostly conceptual, dry and barren. Even if one has peak experiences. It is ok to have I AM realization and still hold a dualistic view at first, but with the right pointers and practice one moves into the direction of anatta and emptiness which you understand is important and crucial for liberation. With the right pointers, one can shortcut the path to anatta and emptiness with the I AM realization first, as John Tan said more than a decade ago, which I agree.
Soh Wei YuAdmin
After anatta realisation, further investigation into emptiness teachings and prajnaparamita and mmk reveals that the empty nature of self equally applies to the empty nature of all phenomena, revealing that the nature of all appearances to be its non arising, its lack of coming and going, arising, abiding and ceasing, which leaves appearances equivalent to magical illusions like a rainbow or phantom or mirage. As I explained in 2016,
[17/1/16, 3:30:25 PM] Soh Wei Yu: when we scroll text on facebook, people with erroneous essence view think that the text is actually going up and down, or as if the text below is hidden below and we have to scroll down and 'get there'. but when we realize D.O. and non-arising we don't see phenomena arising, abiding, ceasing, going to or coming from... so scrolling of text is merely appearing without movement, abiding no where and going no where, like a magical illusion.
the same for all other phenomena 'in the universe'
[17/1/16, 9:33:31 PM] John Tan: Quite good. Knowing that we must also know about functionality.
[17/1/16, 9:35:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. can u give an example
[17/1/16, 9:41:35 PM] John Tan: When u see texts scrolling from page 1 to page 2, paging serves the function of breaking down the "texts" into the window or screen frame to allow us the possibility of seeing the whole texts.
· 24m · Edited
Soh Wei YuAdmin
This is the 'non inherent existence' applied at a deeper and wider scope
Soh Wei YuAdmin
Otherwise one can get stuck with AF (actual freedom) level of realisation, where the self/Self is unreal and deconstructed and dissolved, but the physical world is extremely real and truly existing.
After twofold emptiness, appearances are still vividly self-luminous, but empty and not truly existent. The Dzogchen term is clearly apparent non-existents.
Kyle Dixon wrote 8 months ago:
"It means the appearance and the knowing of the appearance are the same. However “appearances are mind” is primarily a sarma school view. In Dzogchen mennagde it is not said that appearances are mind but rather that appearances are med par gsal snang, which means “non-existent clear appearances” or “clearly apparent non-existents.”"
· 22m · Edited"
Soh Wei Yu
More on the text scrolling analogy:
[29/3/16, 12:15:19 AM] John Tan: First u must know there r many unexamined assumptions
[29/3/16, 12:16:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. What assumptions?
[29/3/16, 12:19:34 AM] John Tan: There can only arising, duration and cessation when an "essence" can b found.
[29/3/16, 12:20:23 AM] John Tan: But u may think u hv gone through thorough enough to know abt essencelessness
[29/3/16, 12:21:57 AM] John Tan: Saying whatever originates in dependence does not originate, abide and cease does not mean u hv understood anything.
[29/3/16, 12:22:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[29/3/16, 12:24:07 AM] John Tan: The teaching starts with a sincere heart in looking for an essence but can't b found under ultimate analysis though in appearance, phenomena appear solid.
[29/3/16, 12:27:44 AM] John Tan: The first actual taste of the profound teaching of essencelessness is from the insight of anatta. However the taste is far from mature realisation of the meaning of non-arising and empty nature of phenomena.
[29/3/16, 12:30:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[29/3/16, 12:30:58 AM] John Tan: So if u do not see essencelessness deep enough, u won't b able to "feel" essencelessness
[29/3/16, 12:32:45 AM] John Tan: There when someone says a bell is ringing, it only sounds logical conventionally, not ultimately.
[29/3/16, 12:43:41 AM] John Tan: For in ultimate sense, neither bell nor sound can b found when sought.
[29/3/16, 12:43:56 AM] John Tan: And what does that mean?
[29/3/16, 12:44:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Bell is labelled based on the sound, the Colours, the function
[29/3/16, 12:44:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: No bell can be found
[29/3/16, 12:45:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Sound is labelled in dependence on hearing, hitting, etc
[29/3/16, 12:46:36 AM] John Tan: Like the example u gave once, these texts I m typing scrolls up and down seem to appear and disappear. The texts seem to hide below window and when scrolled upward appears to re-surface from below the window.
[29/3/16, 12:47:22 AM] John Tan: But in ultimate sense, there is no text hidden below the chat window.
[29/3/16, 12:48:18 AM] John Tan: But that is in ultimate sense, not conventional sense.
[29/3/16, 12:49:12 AM] John Tan: So in ultimate sense, there is nothing truly arise, abide and cease.
[29/3/16, 12:49:33 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[29/3/16, 12:58:15 AM] John Tan: So bringing this into actual taste (as first person), what is this telling u? In anatta, what is it telling u and how it feels like?
[29/3/16, 3:40:51 AM] Soh Wei Yu: In Anatta one is freed from the ghostly image of inherent existence and directly taste the appearance.. Likewise for non arising one taste the nature of appearance as empty clarity free from Essence, coming, going
[29/3/16, 3:41:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta tells you there is no ghost or inherent existence to awareness besides seen, heard, smell
[29/3/16, 7:59:02 AM] John Tan: U no need to work?
[29/3/16, 7:59:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Need to work
[29/3/16, 7:59:30 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Woke up in the middle of the night lol
[29/3/16, 7:59:45 AM] John Tan: Lol
[29/3/16, 8:02:21 AM] John Tan: Free from the inherent existence of self...not free from inherent existence
[29/3/16, 8:14:35 AM] John Tan: Yes allowing one to directly taste the transience and realize these transience (color, sound, thoughts, sensations, scent) that we shunt away is the very suchness. So don't look elsewhere for suchness.
Sound, sensations, colors, form, scent...all these transience phenomena...they r like the texts being scrolled up and down, appears to come and go...but in ultimate sense, understand that they do not truly arise, abide and cease. That is the non-arising and empty nature of suchness.
It is fully understanding these evanescence appearances without having the need to resort back to a linking essence that is difficult.
[29/3/16, 8:15:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[29/3/16, 8:16:55 AM] John Tan: There is some true existence hearing nature is the problem...for that is precisely the cause of duality.
[29/3/16, 8:17:07 AM] John Tan: And cause of suffering.
[29/3/16, 8:22:44 AM] John Tan: If one needs to establish "sound" to b "here", to b "now" or to have firm establishment any hearing nature separate from sound....that is stressful, not liberating.
[29/3/16, 8:26:44 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[29/3/16, 8:28:16 AM] John Tan: Freedom comes from directly experiencing the empty and non-arising nature of appearances in real time...not needing an Essence ground is the releasing factor.
[29/3/16, 8:41:11 AM] John Tan: The key issue is most do not know the way of essencelessness. It is directly opposite of "holding...rather it is just full and unreserve opening...complete welcoming
[29/3/16, 8:45:18 AM] John Tan: Even u after conceptually understood...even after initially taste of selflessness and the insight of anatta, there is no release. The karmic tendency of holding on to an essence has infiltrated into every aspect of our thoughts, manifested in our every action, imprinted into every cell.
[29/3/16, 8:46:48 AM] John Tan: The body must b opened up too in addition to just dissolving reified mental constructs.