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Shared this with a group so thought to just share it here.
Feedback on my practice is welcomed!
Soh Wei Yu
Yin Ling It is good you are stabilizing your anatta experience after the initial breakthrough insight into anatta. I think you are progressing well. First is the stabilization of anatta, then after that one can still fall into sidetracks like the AF physical if practicing without right view, otherwise one can continue progress into +A and -A emptiness with the right view of D.O. and non-arising / emptiness. And on that you are also progressing so I am not so worried. After all three tastes are stabilized the next step will be progression into the three states, and only then can one confidently say that one has mastery and liberation in all states even in bardo.
Don't practice in a way that is too tense or fabricate any experience otherwise it leads to energy imbalance.. be natural and effortless which you are now starting to experience. Because of anatta and emptiness insight, presence is experienced as totally natural, spontaneous, non-referential and traceless in accord with dependent origination, otherwise it will be something or a special state to be fixated or held on to, be it as an absolute background (in I AM), as a seamless field of oneness (one mind), as physical actual world (post anatta physical sidetrack). Be light as a feather and immense as the universe. And also Buddha's teachings about the vina that is neither too taut nor too loose - https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN6_55.html
I can't advise you well so will let John Tan reply.
Was reminded of this including "Do not fear challenging your imaginary split. In time to come, you will realize you can't re-experience the 'division' even if you want to.", for me it didn't take long for all sense of division and agency and any lingering trace of background to stop arising. But d.o. and emptiness took some time. (post anatta D.O. is clear but there are still varying depths of deconstruction as you know by now - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-phases-of... )
"John Tan wrote to me shortly after my anatta realization (he wrote this in Jan 2011): “AEN,
The summary of the experiences and realizations that you have written for your teachers and masters are good documentations of your journey but not to get too attached to external 'authentication'.
What that is more important now is to realize after the arising insight of anatta, how through the adoption of 'right view' lead to thorough seamless and effortless experience of non-dual. As I have told you in the earlier post:
The initial break-through although may appear thorough to you but the clear experience of no-mind should not last more than few months. It will lose its grandeur and the 'split' will surface intermittently.
So go through few cycles of refining your experience of no-mind and continue to adopt the 'right view' of understanding the experience. Have no doubt that Phenomena in their primordial purity is Dharmakaya. Always check whether there is any lingering trace of a background. If there is, there will always be division.
Do not fear challenging your imaginary split. In time to come, you will realize you can't re-experience the 'division' even if you want to.
Once again, check and fearlessly challenge whether such lingering trace remains. Is non-dual intermitent or reversible and has the right view sunk into the deep most of your consciousness. This step must be done with utmost sincerity and must not be compromised.
The grandeur will disappear after a few months but once the right view is practiced correctly, your experience will be stable and continuous. There must be complete thoroughness and effortlessness in non-dual.
This is the only true authentication.”"
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I found a cool meditation spot today.
You know that little voice inside you that talks non stop?
That one who “help” you make decision
Who Tell you to do this and that
Who Have “secret” judgments against ppl?
Who praises your self “well done you!”
That Which all spiritual books call “self-esteem”?
Or call your body fat ?
Or fortunately ..
80% of it will go after awakening.
And there is silence, stillness.
Quiet. Really quiet.
A broken tape stops.
A deafeaning silence is prominent at initial awakening.
Which gets quieter as days passed
Now you hear the birds chirping
You see others
You feel the breeze
You enjoy walking
Not as your body and mind,
No longer trapped inside a body and a little noisy brain.
But as the universe.
All is mind.
Mind meeting mind meeting mind meeting mind.
Thoughts are mind. Body is mind. Car is mind, plants are mind.
Who, where, what, why, how.. becomes .. weird.
You, I , they, we, us, them.. sounds strange.
Just this suchness. Like a dream.
Who is gaining. Who is losing.
Who is fighting with whom?
All mind, meeting mind.
It all stillness, movement happens
A gratitude for the miraculous opportunity to experience
A little bird, a flower.
laying down the burden,
Ending the cause of suffering.
It was so heavy before, so so heavy
I suffered so much as a person, before.
Is that even necessary ?
no more me struggling against the world.
Just all of this, all of this,
The world will face the world as one
Mind meeting mind as one,
No more others
No more fear
Let’s get use to this.
It is ok.
I use alot of words, to explain reality,
Only to help others see.
But sometimes if i speak to a person who already sees it,
I don't say anything,
at most one word "suchness"
and a smile
Reality is all suchness.
however to come to suchness,
It is not that easy,
it's breakthroughts after breakthroughs,
dedication and effort to learn the views,
to see with honesty and authenticity,
to let go of alot of identification,
to communicate with ppl who are already there to give you the courage to experience in a radical different way compared to one's paradigm before. this is the hardest.
The layers of onion I needed to peel personally being :
1) concentration training and train the mind to Know sensations clearly
2) train the mind to see thoughts as thoughts and not get pulled away.
3) Separating out emotions and thoughts so they do not overwhelm. a lot of emotional work
4) Drop the doer, and perceiver gradually by seeing luminosity( things being aware of themselves) and drop labelling.
5) complete drop of "self" when all 6 senses turn non dual. Senses are still substantial.
the world is vivid, bright, ultra HD.
lots of energy, looked into body work, energy work, self massage, to release.
6) Investigate into unlocatableness of all sensation to induce taste of insubstantiality.
- No Who, no where, no when, no how, no what
-Look into "non-arising" via dependent origination.
-the world turns magical.
- more energy release
7) investigate all boundaries body to drop body identification.
another bout of energy release.
- deep realization could transcend birth and death
Investigate conceptual elaborations to break cognitive obscrurations , 1 of the 2 obscurations that will blind.
- e.g existence and non-existence, being and non-being, eternal and nihilism,
9) investigate more cognitive obscurations of common concepts via MMK
- cause and effect, motion, things and their characters, language barrier - huge help from MMK.
10) investigate conceptualisations - labelling of an thing makes things thing.
-which is Gelug school "mere names",
-Nagarjuna "dependent designation", or "naming of a non-referent" as opposed to a referent.
-"chariot 7 fold analysis" helps
11) Familiarisation of the 'suchness' taste after 1-10 is peeled off.
the world is crystal/mirror/ dream like/ have a holographic feel to it.
-mindfulness turns more and more "effortless".
-watching the mind closely for any emotional obscurations - any few seconds of egotistical emotions - jealousy hatred frustrations etc, so i could release.
-but they don't come up that easily anymore if i don't find fault with others lol
12) Cultivate compassion and the paramis.
13) Waiting for the marketplace to serve me the 8 winds and whack me around to bring out those deep latent tendencies up so that I can release all of it into suchness, as suchness
p/s : writing this down as it's getting harder and harder to recall experiences when things turn more and more 'natural' after a period of integration.
Homage to the Blessed one,
who have told us
liberation is here and now.
and we all have Buddha Nature, like him.
and silly me takes his word seriously
The platform sutra may be helpful for her.
Good friends, since ancient times, this Dharma teaching of ours, both its direct and indirect versions, has proclaimed 'no thought' as its doctrine, 'no form' as its body, and 'no attachment' as its foundation. What do we mean by a form that is 'no form'? To be free of form in the presence of forms. And 'no thought'? Not to think about thoughts. And 'no attachment,' which is everyone basic nature? Thought after thought, not to become attached. Whether it's a past thought, present thought, or future thought, let one thought follow another without interruption. Once a thought is interrupted, the dharma body becomes separated from the material body. When you go from one thought to another, don't become attached to any Dharma. Once one thought becomes attached, every thought becomes attached, which is what we call 'bondage'. But when you go from one thought to another without becoming attached to any Dharma, there's no bondage. This is why no attachment is our foundation.
Good friends, 'no form' means externally to be free of all forms. If you can just be free of forms, the body of your nature is perfectly pure. This is why we take 'no form as our body.' To be unaffected by any object is what is meant by 'no thought,' to be free of objects in our thoughts and not give rise to thoughts about Dharmas. But don't think about nothing at all. Once your thoughts stop, you die and are reborn somewhere else. Students of the way take heed, don't misunderstand the meaning of this teaching. It's one thing to be mistaken yourself, but quite another to lead others astray then to criticise the teaching of the sutras while remaining unaware that you yourself are lost. Thus the reason we proclaim 'no thought' as our doctrine is because deluded people think in terms of objects, and on the basis of these thoughts they give rise to erroneous views. This is the origin of all afflictions and delusions.
Nevertheless when this school proclaims 'no thought' as its doctrine, those people who transcend objects and who don't give rise to thoughts, even though they have no thoughts, they do not then proclaim 'no thought.' What does 'no' negate? And what thought is 'thought' about? 'No' negates dualities and afflictions. And 'thought' is thought about the original nature of reality. Reality is the body of thought, and thought is the function of reality. When your nature gives rise to thought, even though you sense something, remain free and unaffected by the world of objects. The Vimalakirti sutra says, 'externally, be skilled at distinguishing the attributes of Dharmas, and internally, remain unchanged by the ultimate truth.'
Good friends, in this school of the Dharma, when we practice Zen, we don't contemplate the mind, and we don't contemplate purity, and we don't talk about being dispassionate. If someone says to contemplate the mind, the mind is basically a delusion. And because a delusion is the same as an illusion, there is nothing to contemplate.
Soh Wei Yu
From atr guide
No-Self is Not Associated with a State of No Thoughts
"The association of anatta (no-self) to the cessation of thoughts is due to a lack of insight that anatta is a seal, not a stage of attainment. In thinking there are always only thoughts, no thinker. In fact it is the realization that the continual arising and ceasing of thoughts without a thinker that is precious. The 2 important qualities that must be experienced are non-dual and spontaneity. Thoughts can slow down or even completely ceased but it has nothing to do with the insight of anatta."
- John Tan, 2009
“[commenting on some posts misinterpreting freedom as a state of thoughtlessness]
[9:51 PM, 9/15/2020] John Tan: I dunno what to say and dont want to comment. It is just seeing through reification that results in pristineness of appearance free from imputations... that is thought free wakefulness. There is clear intuitive discernment that is boundless and spontaneously free.
[9:53 PM, 9/15/2020] John Tan: One should first have the experiential insight of anatta as it is the exhaustion of the background self as the reified construct. To just say free of thoughts or to say it is a blank state that one can't differentiate left from right is just nonsense and pure ignorance.
[9:55 PM, 9/15/2020] John Tan: I think even taoism i ching has more clarity if understood correctly.
[9:57 PM, 9/15/2020] John Tan: Buddhism proviides such clarity but I just don't understand why is it presented or misunderstood to this extent... maybe I am wrong...lol.
[9:59 PM, 9/15/2020] John Tan: But since I am out of all these idle talks, I just don't want people to disturb me unless condition is there. No point to keep engaging in fruitless idle talk. You too, be sincere and practice.”
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, Clarifying the Natural State:
"At this moment, allow a feisty thought, such as delight, to take form. The very moment it vividly occurs, look directly into its identity from within the state of aware emptiness.
"Now, is this thought the intangible and naked state of aware emptiness? Or is it absolutely no different from the identity of innate mind-essence itself? Look!"
Let the meditator look for a short while.
The meditator may say, "It is the aware emptiness. There seems to be no difference." If so, ask:
"Is it an aware emptiness after the thought has dissolved? Or is it an aware emptiness by driving away the thought from meditation? Or, is the vividness of the thought itself an aware emptiness?"
If the meditator says it is like one of the first two cases, he had not cleared up the former uncertainties and should therefore be set to resolve this for a few days.
On the other hand, if he personally experiences it to be like the latter case, he has seen identity of thought and can therefore be given the following pointing-out instruction:
"When you look into a thought's identity, without having to dissolve the thought and without having to force it out by meditation, the vividness of the thought is itself the indescribable and naked state of aware emptiness. We call this seeing the natural face of innate thought or thought dawns as dharmakaya.
"Previously, when you determined the thought's identity and when you investigated the calm and the moving mind, you found that there was nothing other than this intangible single mind that is a self-knowing, natural awareness. It is just like the analogy of water and waves.”
Mahamudra teacher Gharwang Rinpoche said,
“Understanding these qualities of the mind—its essence, nature, and characteristics—is fundamental to the features of mahāmudrā practice. For example, in mahāmudrā practice, you may encounter the instruction to not abandon thoughts. This might sound very strange to meditators from other traditions, but if you really understand the nature of the mind, then you will understand the profundity of this instruction. Thoughts are not harmful things in and of themselves. The final goal of mahāmudrā practice is not the cessation of all thoughts. This is not something that we strive for. It is said in the mahāmudrā tradition the essence of thought is the dharmakāya, the truth body of a buddha. So, in a certain sense, practicing with the aim to abandon thought would be like aiming to abandon the dharmakāya. In fact, many mahāmudrā masters say that when thoughts arise, they feel so happy and joyful because, for them, more thoughts means more opportunity to experience the dharmakāya.” - Mahamudra: A Practical Guide by Zurmang Gharwang Rinpoche
Soh Wei Yu
"Session Start: Monday, September 22, 2008
(12:31 PM) AEN: hi i replied you just now
(12:31 PM) AEN: i mean forum
(12:54 PM) Thusness: don't talk about effortless and spontaneity
(12:54 PM) Thusness: if we look at Isis question, why is it so?
(12:54 PM) Thusness: why is there fear and phobia?
(12:55 PM) Thusness: What is mind?
(12:56 PM) AEN: bcos of past experiences right
(12:56 PM) AEN: like something happened before
(12:56 PM) AEN: and so when he/she experience something (like dog)
(12:57 PM) AEN: then he/she will react through conditioned thinking
(12:57 PM) AEN: so give rise to fear
(12:57 PM) Thusness: you are using logical reasoning
(12:57 PM) AEN: its like habitual reaction
(12:58 PM) AEN: or karmic propensity?
(12:58 PM) Thusness: all experiences that resulted has just one impact, they becomes imprints
(12:58 PM) AEN: oic
(12:58 PM) Thusness: so what is mind?
(12:58 PM) AEN: imprints and mental activities?
(12:58 PM) Thusness: you must feel it
(12:59 PM) Thusness: it is not an entity...
(12:59 PM) Thusness: it is a tendency
(12:59 PM) Thusness: that is not as an entity...u still have that sensation as if it is a Witness, an entity because you cannot feel this truth yet.
(1:00 PM) Thusness: can you see that mind As an arising tendency
(1:01 PM) AEN: the other day when meditating i had a sense suddenly that my entire mind is just tendencies arising, and there is like no thinker
(1:01 PM) Thusness: yes
Soh Wei Yu
(1:02 PM) Thusness: you must first feel this truth with your entire being
(1:02 PM) Thusness: like what Jeff Foster said, 'YOU' are just an arising thought
(1:02 PM) AEN: oic
(1:02 PM) Thusness: don't worry too much how it arises and how it subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: for now, you must see 'what is'
(1:03 PM) Thusness: a thought arises, then subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: then sound, then subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: then another thought arises
(1:04 PM) Thusness: what is thought?
(1:04 PM) AEN: just thought lor
(1:04 PM) AEN: awareness?
(1:04 PM) Thusness: no good
(1:04 PM) AEN: its like a kind of phenomena just like sound, sight, etc
(1:05 PM) AEN: but a different kind
(1:05 PM) Thusness: very good
(1:05 PM) Thusness: very good.
(1:05 PM) Thusness: what sort of phenomena?
(1:05 PM) AEN: dunnu how to describe it leh
(1:05 PM) AEN: mental phenomena?
(1:05 PM) Thusness: haha...
(1:05 PM) Thusness: yes what is it like?
(1:06 PM) AEN: images recalled, mental reasoning, arising in the mind?
(1:07 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:07 PM) AEN: words, etc
(1:07 PM) Thusness: but what that is more important, it is a 'knowing' or 'luminous' phenomenon
(1:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:08 PM) Thusness: an arising thought, then another arising thought
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:08 PM) Thusness: each thought is 'luminous'
(1:08 PM) Thusness: first you must know this
(1:08 PM) Thusness: but if you see it from all previous experiences, you 'see' differently.
(1:09 PM) Thusness: what is seen is 'An Eternal Witness' sort of experience.
(1:09 PM) Thusness: is it not true?
(1:10 PM) AEN: yea
(1:10 PM) AEN: and theres a subtle tendency to push away all thoughts rather than simple see everything as it is
(1:10 PM) AEN: or rather
(1:10 PM) AEN: attempt to be the background awareness
(1:10 PM) Thusness: yes the tendency to push, to relate to a 'center' a source
(1:10 PM) Thusness: to be a container, a background
(1:11 PM) Thusness: you must feel the differences
(1:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:12 PM) Thusness: it is just a tendency to relate back to a source and refuses to 'see' what is.
(1:13 PM) Thusness: every arising of a thought carries with it deeply rooted imprints
(1:13 PM) Thusness: that 'blinds'
(1:13 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:14 PM) AEN: and the eternal witness is the thought of what is and what isnt awareness right, then becomes a tendency
(1:14 PM) AEN: to sink back to a center
(1:14 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:14 PM) Thusness: but first you must understand 'thought'
(1:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness: a thought is luminous
(1:15 PM) Thusness: a luminous arising mental phenomena
(1:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness: isn't it?
(1:16 PM) AEN: yes
(1:16 PM) Thusness: besides that what else? Isn't it always so?
(1:16 PM) Thusness: 'You are just an arising thought'
(1:17 PM) Thusness: a luminous thought at this moment 'looking' back, relating
(1:17 PM) Thusness: pondering
(1:17 PM) Thusness: in thinking, there is only thoughts
(1:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:17 PM) Thusness: now meditate on the stanza
(1:18 PM) Thusness: in thinking there is only thought
(1:18 PM) Thusness: in hearing, there is only sound
(1:18 PM) Thusness: just this two lines is enough
(1:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:21 PM) AEN: so whenever thoughts, tendency arise, we should just experience the thought as it is
(1:21 PM) AEN: as luminous
(1:21 PM) Thusness: no
(1:22 PM) Thusness: you must first understand clearly what is meant by no-self
(1:23 PM) Thusness: but know what is thought first.
(1:23 PM) Thusness: then understand anatta
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:31 PM) Thusness: What is the different between in 'thinking, no thinker' and in thinking, only thoughts?
(1:31 PM) AEN: the luminosity of the thought is not thoroughly experienced even though there is insight into no split?
(1:31 PM) AEN: i dunno
(1:32 PM) Thusness: until you understand, then tell me.
(1:32 PM) Thusness:
(1:32 PM) AEN: lol ok
(1:35 PM) AEN: in thinking, only thought, means each thought is discrete and complete?
(1:35 PM) AEN: no linking
(1:37 PM) AEN: before that there is still chaining of one thought with another?
(1:39 PM) Thusness: okie..so so only...anyway you have not understood the real essence of being unsupported, discrete and complete yet.
(1:40 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:40 PM) Thusness: just meditate on the first 2 lines : in thinking, just thoughts and in hearing, just sound
(1:40 PM) AEN: ok"