https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/xu9fxp/does_the_spirit_get_to_live_on_after_after_death/Posted by


u/Ratboi973

13 hours ago


Does the “spirit” get to live on after after death even after reaching Nirvana?

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I’m very confused so please respond in actual simplistic and point of view to someone who has no clue how Buddhism really works. So no deep thinking or anything if someone can just explain the belief basis of what Buddhists believe happens after physical death even after attaining nirvana?


Like I heard that after reaching nirvana the “soul” or spirit or whatever you want to call it, can finally stop the cycle of rebirth and rest in bliss. But where? Where do you rest? Cuz if they say you finally ended all rebirth is there like an afterlife heaven type place that they can reside in once one has reached nirvana and died?


I heard they can be rebirthed to help others or also reside in a different dimension in peace.


Like my mind is going nuts can someone explain what the Buddhists really think happens after death AND reaching nirvana? Does it just all go black?


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level 1

xabir

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11 hr. ago

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edited 11 hr. ago

In Mahayana/Vajrayana Buddhism, although it is agreed in all Buddhist traditions that there is no unchanging or independent self, the mindstream (which consists of a transient, momentary and self-less series of mind moments) of a Buddha continue to endlessly manifest or emanate for the sake of other sentient beings out of compassion. Buddhas like all arahats do not suffer and are not bound by the cycles of karmic rebirth. However, Buddhas do not stray into the cessation of an arahat. Even arahats will be roused by a Buddha from their samadhi of cessation after a long time to continue their path to Buddhahood. This understanding about arahats is not shared by Theravada Buddhism, where many may see arahatship as their ideal goal and endpoint of spiritual practice.



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Ratboi973

OP

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11 hr. ago

So theoretically the cycle is infinite right? Once nirvana is reached an Arahat will still continue to be manifested in some form to help others reach this understanding? So it is technically an infinite process still? Because of compassion it chosen that they will return to help other humans?


This makes way more sense now if that’s what you mean



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level 3

xabir

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11 hr. ago

Something like that. The mahayana understanding is that even arahats are roused by a buddha from their state of cessation after a long time.


But the emanation of a fully awakened Buddha in our world is not due to karmas and are not uncontrolled. They do not suffer in the process of helping others. They are free from all mental afflictions (the kleshas such as clinging, craving, anger, delusion and all manners of I/me/mine making) that drives suffering and karmic rebirth.



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Ratboi973

OP

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11 hr. ago

So if they come back to earth to help others out of compassion to share the teachings of enlightenment what form do they take? I’m probably ignorant to be asking that as it takes lots of Buddhist study to understand, but I would assume that in order to be consciously aware to help others they need to take upon some shape or form without the concept of “I/we/they” And I know that Buddhists tend to deny the idea of a soul as it’s an independent being but does that mean that take upon the form of a god or something? (Since they have returned to share the teachings of enlightenment)



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xabir

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9 hr. ago

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edited 9 hr. ago

In the context of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, it is important to understand that a fully awakened Buddha has three bodies. For example the historical Shakyamuni Buddha who appeared in India more than 2500 years ago is one such nirmanakaya manifestation that enacted the birth as a prince, his renunciation and search for truth culiminating in enlightenment under the bodhi tree. All these, according to Mahayana/Vajrayana teachings is simply a play, a show, a teaching device of an ancient Buddha that had long been awakened for a very long time.


On the three bodies:


“The dharmakāya, sometimes translated as the “truth body” or “reality body,” generally refers to the essential nature of the Buddha, as is stated in this sūtra. The saṃbhogakāya and the nirmāṇakāya, known collectively as the form bodies, are understood as emanations of the dharmakāya, or essential nature, of the Buddha. In other words, they are the manifestations of the enlightened activity of the Buddha. The saṃbhogakāya, sometimes translated as “enjoyment body,” is the apparitional form the Buddha takes for bodhisattvas and practitioners in meditative states or in dreams. The nirmāṇakāya, sometimes translated as “manifestation body,” is the physical form of the Buddha that can be seen by any sentient being. The Buddha, who is able to emanate in countless forms, does so in order to liberate beings through the illumination and demonstration of the Dharma. All three bodies are ultimately considered inseparable.” - The Noble ‌Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Three Bodies” https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-068-017.html


It is important to understand this point made by the redditor Krodha:


“The Buddha is the dharmakāya, the nature of your own mind. The Buddha is idolized and venerated because the three jewels, Buddha, dharma and sangha are the means by which you personally can actualize buddhahood and realize the true meaning of what it means to be a Buddha yourself. The the prajñāpāramitā exegesis, the Buddha himself states that he is not to be actually idolized as name and form, he says the Buddha is not the rūpakāya, not the personage, not the historical character, the Buddha is the dharmakāya, and the dharmakāya is the nature of your own mind. How do you actualize the citadel of the dharmakāya? By exhausting the two obscurations. How is that accomplished? By realizing the luminosity of mind and phenomena via the experiential realization of selflessness [anatta]. The Ārya-aṣṭasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā Sūtra states: Those who are attached to the tathāgata as a form or a name are childish and have corrupted discerning wisdom [prajñā], the tathāgatas are not to be seen as the rūpakāya; the tathāgatās are to be seen as the dharmakāya”



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p.s. this dharmakaya, or nature of mind, is as explained by Kyle/Krodha -- empty clarity:

"'Self luminous' and 'self knowing' are concepts which are used to convey the absence of a subjective reference point which is mediating the manifestation of appearance. Instead of a subjective cognition or knower which is 'illuminating' objective appearances, it is realized that the sheer exertion of our cognition has always and only been the sheer exertion of appearance itself. Or rather that cognition and appearance are not valid as anything in themselves. Since both are merely fabricated qualities neither can be validated or found when sought. This is not a union of subject and object, but is the recognition that the subject and object never arose in the first place [advaya]. ", "The cognition is empty. That is what it means to recognize the nature of mind [sems nyid]. The clarity [cognition] of mind is recognized to be empty, which is sometimes parsed as the inseparability of clarity and emptiness, or nondual clarity and emptiness." - Kyle Dixon, 2014


.......

  • William Lim
    Soh Wei Yu so enlightenment (aka freedom from rebirth) is technically cessation, which is what the arahat chooses to do?
    And (instead of cessation) Buddha chooses for its mindstream to manifest in samsara in order to help those still in samsara? But the difference from ordinary rebirth is that Buddha's manifestation/s is free from affliction and karma?
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  • Yin Ling
    William Lim I will let soh answer this haha too out of my depth
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  • Daniel Lester
    William Lim in my limited understanding .
    Theravada Buddhism, a bodhisattva is seen as an exceptional and rare individual. Only a few select individuals are ultimately able to become bodhisattvas in Mahayana Buddhism generally the bodhisattva path is open to everyone and Mahayanists encourage all individuals to become bodhisattvas.
    In theravedan it is understood that a bodhisatva is someone who made a resolution to become a buddha and has recieved confirmation from an actual buddha. In mahayana a bodsatva refers to someone who has developed bodicitta, or have developed the 4 bramavihara qualities. Metta, karuna, upekha and mudita as well as other bodhisatva qualities. Wisdom etc.
    complex but thats my understanding, boddhisatvas come prior to buddhas. (Maybe close to enlightenment or became enlightened but still have residue karma in this lifetime. But a buddha can also be a bodhisatva and come back at will.
    Thats my take on things, dalai lama etc.
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  • Daniel Lester
    Thanks that was an interesting read. Some good pointers!
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Sharing from some replies I posted in Reddit today.
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    level 3
    Jotunheiman
    ·
    42 min. ago
    humanist
    That which you have quoted also shows that awakening, that is, becoming an arahant, is not part of the foci of Mahayana. The ‘Lesser Vehicle’ goal is to become an arahant and not be reborn.
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    level 4
    xabir
    ·
    6 min. ago
    All Mahayana Buddhists strive to attain the supreme, unexcelled, complete awakening of a Buddha. Awakening as an arahant is merely one type of bodhi - Sāvaka-Bodhi (Arhat), Pacceka-Bodhi (Pratyeka), Sammā-Sambodhi (supreme Buddha).
    So it would not be accurate to say that awakening is not part of the foci of Mahayana, in fact it is the precise reason for practicing the Mahayana path. Aspiring to attain Buddhahood is also known as bodhicitta.
    Hence, a Mahayana Buddhist strives to first attain awakening as a Bodhisattva, starting with the first bhumi, conferring the realisation of twofold emptiness. Then work all the way up to Buddhahood (also known as the 11th, or 13th, or 16th bhumi and so on depending on tradition). The two obscurations (afflictive and knowledge obscurations) are completely eliminated at the point of attaining Buddhahood.
    Furthermore, the statement I said that "the eighth bhumi bodhisattva is seen as equivalent with an arahant in terms of overcoming mental afflictions, according to Mahayana." is accurate.
    On distinguishing the difference in attainment between an Arahat or Pratyekabuddha and a Buddha, the Mahayana scripture Lankavatara Sutra states, “...Therefore, Mahamati, the assurances given to shravakas and bodhisattvas do not differ. Mahamati, what doesn’t differ is the taste of liberation when shravakas and pratyeka-buddhas or buddhas and tathagatas get rid of the obstruction of passion, not when they get rid of the obstruction of knowledge. Mahamati, the obstruction of knowledge is purified when they see that dharmas have no self. The obstruction of passion is removed prior to this when they become accustomed to seeing that persons have no self. It is when the seventh consciousness ceases that they are liberated from the obstruction of dharmas. And it is when the habit-energy of the repository consciousness ceases that their purification is complete.”
    And yet, what is the difference between the Arahant and 8th Bhumi Bodhisattva? Lankavatara Sutra states,
    "“Mahamati, at the eighth stage, bodhisattvas, shravakas, and pratyeka-buddhas experience nirvana. But because bodhisattvas are supported by buddhas during samadhi,9 despite the bliss of samadhi, they do not enter nirvana. Without such support, they would not complete the tathagata stage and would give up all that they do for other beings and would sever their membership in the lineage of buddhas. Therefore, the buddhas tell them of the inconceivable and infinite virtues of a tathagata. Meanwhile, shravakas and pratyeka-buddhas are seduced by the bliss of samadhi and create the thought of nirvana.The Lankavatara Sutra: Translation and Commentary . Counterpoint. Kindle Edition."
    Also, Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith said,
    "The obscuration of affliction is abandoned on the seventh bhumi. Bodhisattvas on the pure stages are also free of attachments.In the shravaka schools, the difference between an arhat and is Buddha is that the former has nonafflictive ignorance and the latter does not."
    "Only bodhisattvas above the seventh bhumi can avoid rebirth. That’s why those bhumis are called the “pure.” Bodhisattvas have no control over rebirth on the impure bhumis, other than the fact they never take birth in the three lower realms."
    Bodhisattvas above the 8th bhumi and Buddhas are free from rebirth. Can they manifest magical emanations to benefit sentient beings? Yes. But it is not karmic birth, it is not driven by unconscious or uncontrolled karmic tendencies, it is not "rebirth".
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  • Yin Ling
    Soh Wei Yu thanks. Just show how Damn high standard buddhism is.
  • Soh Wei Yu
    William: "enlightenment (aka freedom from rebirth) is technically cessation"
    No, enlightenment is not a word used in Buddhism. The nearest term, awakening, is 'bodhi'. It is not equivalent with cessation, which is 'nirvana'.
  • Soh Wei Yu
    All Buddhists of all traditions strive for awakening/bodhi. In one sense, Mahayana considers cessation an extreme. In another sense, we strive for nirvana, just not the kind that abandons samsara or sentient beings.
    The Mahayanists strive for a non-abiding nirvana that does not abandon sentient beings.
    Geoff:
    "For the Theravāda, nibbāna is an ultimately real dhamma (paramatthadhamma) and the only dhamma that is not conditioned (asaṅkhata). It is an object of supramundane cognition (lokuttaracitta) and is included in the mental phenomena sensory sphere (dhammāyatana) and the mental phenomena component (dhammadhātu). The four paths, four fruits, and nibbāna are classified as the unincluded level (apariyāpanna bhūmi), that is, not included in the sensual realm, the form realm, or the formless realm. According to the Visuddhimagga, nibbāna "has peace as its characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to comfort. It is manifested as the signless; or it is manifested as non-diversification (nippapañca)."
    According to the Sarvāstivāda, nirvāṇa is an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) that is a disjunction from impure dharmas that occurs through analysis (pratisaṃkhyāna), which is a specific type of discernment (prajñā). This analytical cessation is substantially existent (dravyasat) and ultimately exists (paramārthasat).
    For Sautrāntika commentators nirvāṇa as an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a merely a conceptual designation (prajñapti) and doesn't refer to an entity or state that is substantially existent (dravyasat). It is a non-implicative negation (prasajyapratiṣedha), that is, a negation that doesn't imply the presence of some other entity. Therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation that is the termination of defilements that are abandoned by the correct practice of the noble path.
    According to the Yogācāra, for those on the bodhisattva path, nirvāṇa is non-abiding (apratiṣṭha nirvāṇa). The dependent nature (paratantrasvabhāva) is the basis (āśraya) of both defilement and purification. The all-basis consciousness (ālayavijñāna) is the defiled portion (saṃkleśabhāga) of the dependent nature. Purified suchness (viśuddhā tathatā) is the purified portion (vyavadānabhāga) of the dependent nature. Synonyms for purified suchness are the perfected nature (pariniṣpanna) and non-abiding nirvāṇa. Non-abiding nirvāṇa is the revolved basis (āśrayaparāvṛtti) that has eliminated defilements without abandoning saṃsāra.
    Madhyamaka authors accept the notion of non-abiding nirvāṇa, but they don't use the three natures model used by the Yogācāra. Rather, they simply consider all things to be conceptual designations (prajñapti) that are empty of nature (svabhāva). For them, conceptual designations are relative truth (saṃvṛtisatya) and only emptiness is ultimate truth (paramārthasatya).
    Zen, Pure Land, Vajrayāna, etc., are practice traditions more so than doctrinal schools, and authors writing from any of these perspectives would generally rely on Yogācāra or Madhyamaka śāstras or a specific Mahāyāna sūtra."
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Wikipedia: Some schools of Buddhism, especially the Mahāyāna, consider apratiṣṭhita-nirvāṇa ("non-abiding cessation") to be the highest form of Buddhahood, more profound than pratiṣṭhita-nirvāṇa, the ‘localized’, lesser form.[2] According to Robert Buswell and Donald Lopez, apratiṣṭhita-nirvāṇa is the standard Mahayana view of Buddhahood, which enables them to freely return to samsara in order to help sentient beings, while still remaining in nirvāṇa and being a buddha[3] via the usage of the nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya.
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