regarding 'process based understanding', some conversations i had with thusness before i realised anatta : 

Session Start: Saturday, 24 July, 2010

(2:14 PM) Thusness: actual freedom doesn't seem welcomed in kenneth's forum

(2:15 PM) AEN: yeah... he closed the actual freedom thread

(2:15 PM) Thusness: ahaha..

(2:15 PM) AEN: they dowan the place to overrun by AF like DhO

and kenneth doesnt really like AF i think

(2:15 PM) Thusness: yeah

(2:17 PM) Thusness: well those actually free ppl should go through life first before over-claiming anything.

(2:17 PM) Thusness: at the age of early twenties, it is still too early to make such comments.

(2:17 PM) AEN: oic..

but richard is v old leh

(2:18 PM) AEN: i think 50s or 60 years old liao

(2:18 PM) Thusness: that is why i do not consider him a wise teacher.

(2:18 PM) AEN: oic.. u think he over claimed?

(2:19 PM) Thusness: of course

(2:19 PM) AEN: ic..

(2:20 PM) Thusness: let alone declaring ppl actually free at such an early age.

(2:20 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:22 PM) Thusness: go through life and experience the many faces of Self in the form of attachments and slowly realize the gray-scale of no-self

now is still too early to talk about it.

(2:23 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:25 PM) Thusness: ur comment for maximo is not really appropriate but the quotes are. 🙂

(2:25 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:25 PM) AEN: how come not appropriate 😛

(2:25 PM) Thusness: unclear

(2:26 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:28 PM) Thusness: and u kept categorizing ppl experience and realization according to my phases of insight

(2:30 PM) Thusness: saying that they are just at which level and so forth...this is quite dis-respectful.  It will cause followers to retaliate.

(2:30 PM) Thusness: So u can't blame Craig N.

(2:30 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:34 PM) Thusness: Some of AF articles are quite good.

And the Realization tallies the experience described.

(2:35 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:35 PM) Thusness: it is also not easy to have that sort of clarity.

many cannot differentiate the difference between non-dual and anatta

(2:38 PM) Thusness: the only point lacking in AF is the realization of 'process'-based understanding

(2:40 PM) AEN: what do u mean by process based understanding

(2:41 PM) Thusness: understanding reality as a flow

not entity

(2:45 PM) AEN: oic.. but AF doesnt understand reality as an entity right

(2:45 PM) Thusness: yes but there is a difference

(2:46 PM) Thusness: no-subject is directly understood as this flow...

(2:46 PM) Thusness: which is quite clear in joan's article.

and in stainlessness and tata articles.

(2:47 PM) Thusness: as well as steven hagen

(2:47 PM) Thusness: means there is clarity in expression about this.

(2:49 PM) Thusness: Because in actual experience, it becomes very clear. If a practitioner were to explore further, it will not be difficult for him to realize the impact of 'view' on experience.

(2:50 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:55 PM) AEN: btw is this about the flow: "...Apperceptiveness is observing the moving flow of experience and enjoying things as they are changing ... in full appreciation of being here and participating in this happenstance. Apperceptiveness is seeing the birth, growth, and maturation of all phenomena ... and it is seeing all phenomena age, decay and die. Apperceptiveness is its own attentiveness moment by moment, continuously ... one is the experiencing of the doing of this moment of being alive. Apperceptiveness stops one from adding anything to perception, or subtracting something from it: one does not enhance anything for one does not emphasise anything. One is free to observe exactly what is here   now   without distortion..."

"...By living together in peace and harmony, equity and freedom, we have proved that, with pure intent, this is possible for anyone on the planet. Life, after all, was meant to be easy, friendly, comfortable, peaceful, harmonious, ever-changing, fresh each moment, direct, obvious, with the senses allowing intimate and total involvement in this moment of being alive. But then again we all have sometimes suspected this and even had tantalizing glimpses of this perfection. It is the destiny we seek..."

(2:57 PM) Thusness: yes but what is the insight about?

(2:59 PM) Thusness: when there is no-subject and experience is a moving flow and has always been so, what does that mean? what is the relationship between in/out, here/there, now/then... awareness/thoughts

(2:59 PM) Thusness: what does the insight of anatta really tell us?

(3:00 PM) AEN: hmm... its telling us that there is only a flow of sensations with nothing inherent anywhere?

(3:02 PM) Thusness: there is non-conceptual thought then conceptual thought, then non-conceptual thought...... there is no Awareness

(3:02 PM) Thusness: relate this to the quotes u provided in ur comment

(3:08 PM) AEN: hmm.. so when awareness is the flow, both conceptual thought and non conceptual thought have the same essence and nature... there is no other inherent entity called non conceptual awareness, its just a flow of conceptual and non conceptual thoughts and the flow itself is awareness?

(3:08 PM) Thusness: no

(3:09 PM) Thusness: there is no the flow itself is awareness as in true existence

just mere convention

(3:09 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:10 PM) AEN: so the insight is in seeing how nothing is inherent and everything we say like in/out, awareness/thoughts etc are mere conventions?

but in reality theres only a flow

(3:10 PM) Thusness: no

(3:11 PM) Thusness: it tells us why a reality that is always so can become entity base...

(3:11 PM) Thusness: and how it relates to liberation

(3:12 PM) AEN: oic...

(3:46 PM) AEN: it tells us why a reality that is always so can become entity base... - u mean by seeing everything as impermanence, then u realise how u have been solidifying them through grasping them as fixed entities?


Session Start: Saturday, 24 July, 2010

(11:28 PM) Thusness: AF sees the universe as this flesh and bone as a realization of one's destiny.  This is important.

(11:28 PM) AEN: destiny?


thats like anatta right

(11:30 PM) Thusness: it is very difficult to explain to u now unless it becomes an effortless experience for u.

(11:31 PM) Thusness: universe as this body is not exactly right but for now it helps ur understanding of impersonality and the I AM phase.

(11:32 PM) Thusness: if u refine ur non-dual experience in terms of luminosity with all these insights, then u will understand anatta better.

(11:33 PM) AEN: oic..


23 august:

(10:47 PM) Thusness: u have to practice until the background is completely gone then fully into luminosity

feeling with entire being without the sense of self completely

(10:48 PM) Thusness: it has to do with fearlessness

as i have to told u many times

(10:49 PM) Thusness: now just focus on realization

(10:49 PM) AEN: oic..

how to focus on realization

(10:49 PM) Thusness: there are few questions u have to ask

(10:50 PM) Thusness: i think it will update the article to include the 'how' to focus on realization

(10:50 PM) AEN: ic..

(10:55 PM) AEN: the questions are koans?

(10:57 PM) Thusness: no to penetrate indepth 3 aspects deeply

(10:59 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:59 PM) Thusness: i mean u need to penetrate indepth 3 aspects deeply

(11:00 PM) Thusness: however i do not want to tell u too much so that u go around saying this and that and commenting ppl are not there yet

(11:03 PM) AEN: ic..

(11:04 PM) AEN: lol

(11:07 PM) Thusness: for example u see AF description of insight and experience are very similar to what i described in anatta article.

(11:09 PM) AEN: oic.. ya

(11:10 PM) AEN: lucky7strikes have realised emptiness?

(11:11 PM) Thusness: there is no ending to this realization

(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;

Refrain from both positive and negative projection -

leave appearances alone:

The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.


this is very good

(11:46 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.

ask luckystrikes

(11:52 PM) AEN: ok

(11:55 PM) AEN: posted

(12:29 AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby:  If you see that awareness is none other than everything, and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life, the diversity of experience itself.

(12:30 AM) Thusness: very good.

(12:31 AM) Thusness: This is anatta

(12:31 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:32 AM) Thusness: what left in is the intensity of practice.

(12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely without trace of awareness

(12:34 AM) AEN: ic..

'We talk about awareness only to see that what we take to be separate objects are really thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc appearing and disappearing within awareness. As that is seen through, we see that the word awareness is actually pointing to the world itself. But the separation is now sweetly missing.'

(12:36 AM) Thusness: u can start to read about scott kiloby

(12:37 AM) Thusness: only the word 'within' Awareness presents a problem.

(12:37 AM) Thusness: otherwise the insight is complete. 🙂

(12:37 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:38 AM) Thusness: put this quote into our blog

(12:38 AM) AEN: both?

(12:38 AM) Thusness: yeah

(12:38 AM) AEN: ok

(12:41 AM) AEN: posted

(1:02 AM) Thusness: send also luckystrikes the scott kiloby quote


Session Start: Monday, 6 September, 2010

(9:01 PM) AEN: scott kiloby wrote an article on 'The Flow'

(9:13 PM) Thusness: kiloby's article is very good

(9:16 PM) Thusness: the article u posted in the blog by kiloby and together with this article, it fairly complete

(9:17 PM) Thusness: u must be able to integrate the 2 articles.

(9:17 PM) Thusness: currently u r looking at AF 'aliveness' that is only the luminosity aspect.

(9:19 PM) Thusness: now the article u showed me has two very important points, tell me the 2.

(9:23 PM) Thusness: many of the titles seem interesting

(9:35 PM) AEN: it's talking about self not as something solid but as the flow, ungraspable?

(9:36 PM) Thusness: no

(9:36 PM) Thusness: completely out

(9:37 PM) AEN: its saying that concepts are part of the flow, and concepts do not actually refer to something solid, and therefore thoughts aren't a problem?

(9:38 PM) Thusness: what is the different between all previous articles and this one?

(9:43 PM) AEN: the previous article seems to stress more on non conceptuality

this one seems to talk about concepts as not a problem?

im not so sure

(9:44 PM) Thusness: just read through the articles, they are very different

(9:44 PM) AEN: u're talking about which previous article

(9:44 PM) Thusness: the one u posted in our blog

(9:45 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:47 PM) AEN: im not so sure..

(9:48 PM) Thusness: so just rem this part

(9:49 PM) AEN: remember what?

(9:49 PM) Thusness: rem that there are differences between these 2 articles

very different in fact.

(9:51 PM) Thusness: and u r always looking for easy answers.  Even if u were to think, u still face the same issue that is mentioned in kiloby's article.

the article that u pasted in this msn.

(9:51 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:29 PM) AEN: in the blog article, scott kiloby talks about objects as being thoughts, emotions, sensations happening in awareness

in the article he talks about thoughts, emotions, sensations as seamless currents of an unknowable river

(10:30 PM) Thusness: totally out

(10:30 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:32 PM) Thusness: the analogy is the same as the dust and the mirror i told u.

(10:33 PM) Thusness: but he is unable to get over the idea of the mirror.

(10:33 PM) Thusness: yet in the article of the blog, he spoke of no mirror

(10:33 PM) AEN: ic..

(10:33 PM) Thusness: therefore there is no clarity of the view yet

(10:34 PM) Thusness: u can see he repeatedly talk about the current is the river

(10:35 PM) AEN: oic.. but wats the difference between the two articles?

(10:35 PM) Thusness: first go through all the points first

all are very important

(10:36 PM) Thusness: post it in the blog, i see whether i got time to go through...there are some very important points that u have to know.

(10:37 PM) Thusness: it is also advisable to re-read these articles to have deepening insight.

(10:40 PM) AEN: posted

(10:41 PM) Thusness: will go through it these few days

(10:42 PM) AEN: ic..

(10:43 PM) Thusness: u posted twice

(10:43 PM) AEN: yea deleted the other one

(10:56 PM) Thusness: is AF more about the flow article, or you r left with the world?

(11:00 PM) AEN: you are left with the world

AF seldom mentions about the flow

(11:00 PM) AEN: i think

(11:02 PM) Thusness: yes

(11:02 PM) Thusness: what is AF emphasizing?

(11:02 PM) AEN: the universe, the physical, the actual, the intensity of luminosity

(11:02 PM) Thusness: yes

this experience peaks when?

(11:03 PM) AEN: hmm

when one experiences consciousness as just the flow?

(11:04 PM) Thusness: no

why u like to anyhow link hah

(11:05 PM) AEN: 😛 the experience peaks when all sense of self/Self is being dissolved?

(11:05 PM) Thusness: closer

when u r left with the world

(11:05 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:06 PM) Thusness: like what richard herman said, the zen master slaps the floor... luminosity manifested in the actuality

(11:06 PM) AEN: ic..

(11:07 PM) Thusness: so u know why i say AF lacks of something?

(11:07 PM) Thusness: when no-self matures, what is lacking?

(11:08 PM) AEN: the intensity of luminosity as the actuality of the world?

(11:08 PM) Thusness: no

totally out

this is what AF is about

how is it that u r unable to see.

(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..

hmm its about the insight into awareness as the flow?

(11:09 PM) Thusness: are u seeing with ur heart or just going through motion.

how could the AF be lack of luminosity manifesting as actuality.

(11:10 PM) Thusness: it is expressed all over the place

(11:10 PM) AEN: ic.. ya

(11:10 PM) Thusness: if u truly want to know, then u have to be sincere in practice and at least have certain insight.

(11:11 PM) Thusness: yet 'the flow' has certain misconception

(11:12 PM) Thusness: it cannot integrate the article 'u r left with the world' with 'the river and the current'.

go contemplate

don't anyhow answer

(11:13 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:19 PM) AEN: btw u saw rar jungle's post?

in the comments section

(11:19 PM) Thusness: yeah

(11:20 PM) Thusness: such comment is not so appropriate in the blog

more appropriate to be in the sgforums

(11:21 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:13 AM) AEN:

(12:38 AM) AEN: mikael says:

*i think I have a natural disposition toward the PCE

*i think i've had one before

*whenever I "naturally" try to meditate.. I concentrate on the senses and try to "become" the world, ignore feelings by just seeming them as impermanent physical sensations. thoughts are usually non existent because i'm concentrating

*i'm going to try to cultivate that

(12:44 AM) AEN: i think i know the difference between the first and second article... the awareness is the world is like talking about the 2nd stanza of anatta with the emphasis on luminosity as the universe, then the flow is talking abuot the 1st stanza of anatta... the insubstantiality of everything as

simply mind moments arising and passing without anything graspable whatsoever. like a thought is simply an arising bubble... but then the flow article fails to integrate the insight of awareness as simply the 'current', the universe, the sensations?

(1:58 AM) AEN: the new article still talks about river and current as if river is something inherent even though the current is part of the river... the previous article is talking about how there is no mind/awareness, only the manifestation/current

Session Start: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010

(11:15 AM) Thusness: PCE is simply non-dual experience except the realization is about manifestation (coming face to face with the actual stuff, i.e, the other five entries and exits)  instead of coming face to face with "I AM".

ur answer is still no good

(11:15 AM) Thusness: although ur answer is quite near.  You must also be aware of the part on there is no way u can have any 'concepts' of the flow.  But the idea or 'right view' is still not there.  Not having any 'fixed idea' or 'fixed view' is still not good enough.

(11:16 AM) AEN: oic..

(11:43 AM) AEN: what do u think of what upekka said: when we say 'we see the computer screen', we take the 'seeing+computer screen' as one entity and we are conscious to the computer screen. this is what happen to us all the time, this will be what happen to us all the time unless we can not understand Buddha's Teaching

if we are mindful, if we have sati, if we have yoniso-manasikara, we do not cling to the 'computer screen', we are not with ignoranace (avijja) so do not create any sankhara (kamma-formation)

when there is no kamma-formation, there is no place for Consciousness to reside on

(11:43 AM) AEN: one thought moment arisen and fallen away without any residual to come back again in future

in other words, in one thought moment there is no Dependent-arising activated

(4:44 PM) AEN:

    * There is no individual 'seer', there is only Pure Consciousness Seeing.

    * There is no individual 'hearer', there is only Pure Consciousness Hearing.

    * There is no individual 'speaker', there is only Pure Consciousness Speaking.

    * There is no individual 'thinker', there is only Pure Consciousness Thinking.

    * There is no individual' doer', there is only Pure Consciousness Doing.

    * There is no individual 'life', there is only Pure Consciousness Living.

    * There is no individual 'breather', there is only Pure Consciousness breathing.

This "pure Intelligence" or "living presence" is keeping your entire body together, the "glue" that is holding the whole universe in  place as it appears. Functioning your entire body effortlessly and naturally for you. There is absolutely nothing you have to do by  "will", to be alive right now! This living presence or livingness naturally IS! It is your natural state of presence.

(4:44 PM) AEN:

Just like when you were only a group of cells, this "pure Intelligence" or "Life" was growing you and forming you effortlessly and  naturally. Putting together the pattern or body that you have right now, inside your mother's womb all by itself, just as it is still

  growing you right now naturally and effortlessly all by itself. This pure Intelligence, Life or Consciousness, does not need any help  from you or anyone else, it knows very well what it is doing!

Realize that this entire manifested Universe is that exact same one "Presence", unchanged and untouched by time and space. The  "Infinite Essence" of this entire Universe is your essence also, one and the same! Only one essence is present, that is your true  nature or natural state of presence, not a small transient human being, but this Infinite unchanging Presence of Consciousness.

(8:33 PM) Thusness: this is what your must experience for the next few years

(8:34 PM) Thusness: + what taught in AF.  That is experience the actuality of manifestation

(8:35 PM) Thusness: PCE must be experienced in both background and foreground and the realization of "I AM" and One Mind must be clear.

(10:29 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:11 PM) Thusness: ic...seems like the blog is getting

u promoted too much

(11:12 PM) Thusness: when u go bmt, u will not have so much time

(11:12 PM) AEN: ic..

(11:14 PM) Thusness: wow...visitors is 183


Session Start: Friday, 10 September, 2010

(11:39 PM) AEN: yesterday had a weird dream.. u passed away. and i was very sad... lol

(12:24 AM) AEN: intense luminosity is very blissful

(10:04 AM) Thusness: lol

(10:04 AM) Thusness: yes...intense luminosity is very blissful...only in a relax way that 'you' disappears.

(10:04 AM) Thusness: This is not "I AM" realization

(10:04 AM) Thusness: anyway your experience of aliveness is good, u r directly experiencing 'this' in the foreground as transience and beginning to experience the bliss of anatta...i hope to write you something before ur enlistment. 🙂

Session Start: Sunday, 12 September, 2010

(12:15 AM) Thusness: Thorough  aliveness  also requires  you  to disappear.  It is an experience of being totally  transparent  and without boundaries.  If you do not fall back to a background, these experiences are quite obvious, u will not miss it.  

(12:21 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:22 AM) Thusness: In addition to bringing this  taste  to the foreground, u must also  realize  the difference between wrong and right view.  There is also a difference in saying  Different forms of Aliveness  and  There is just breath, sound, scenery  

(12:23 AM) Thusness: that these arising dependently originates.

(12:24 AM) Thusness: In the former case, realize how the mind is manifesting a subtle tendency of attempting to  pin  and locate something that inherently exists. The mind feels uneasy and needs to seek for something due to its existing paradigm.   

.   It is not simply a matter of expression for communication sake but a habit that runs deep because it lacks a  view  that is able to cater for reality that is dynamic, ungraspable, non-local , center-less and interdependent.  

(12:25 AM) Thusness: Otherwise the mind will continue to locate and seek.  

(12:26 AM) Thusness: Lastly also understand that 'bliss' is the result of luminosity, 'liberation' is the result of the insight of emptiness.

(12:26 AM) AEN: ic..

so one must understand emptiness also

(12:27 AM) AEN: like replace the wrong view with right view

(12:27 AM) Thusness: yes

(12:28 AM) Thusness: intensity of luminosity into the foreground, into actuality does not result in auto letting go.

(12:28 AM) Thusness: the mind continues to hold in a very deep level and subtle way.

(12:28 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:34 AM) Thusness: so u know why Buddha taught vipassana?

(12:35 AM) AEN: its to directly experience luminosity without a self and without holding on to something permanent or inherent

(12:36 AM) Thusness: in the foreground

(12:36 AM) AEN: ic..

(12:36 AM) Thusness: as aggregates

(12:38 AM) AEN: oic..

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