See whole discussion here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/permalink/4595324210508973

Chris Jones recently realised I AM and posed this question.

Chris Jones

Has anyone gone through Liberation Unleashed and have any experiences or thoughts on it they’d like to share? They claim to be able to point people directly to Anatta, even without any prior practice. It seems to depend highly on how experienced your guide is, but I think it’s a really interesting idea.

(I’m not advertising and don’t represent them in any way, just wanted opinions)

Soh Wei Yu

You know I always throw the 80% I AM, 15% One Mind Nondual, 2% or less anatta/emptiness estimate by myself (admittedly I haven't done a very methodical study) which is purely based on my own estimate.

My guess, again based purely on impressions, is that LU is somewhat like 80% impersonality, maybe 10–20% have gone through I AM, 10% have one mind sort of nondual, and maybe 1–2% are closer to anatta.

But for you, if you can even experience impersonality that is good, since that is one of the four aspects of I AM that will be your next step. For example, when John Wheeler wrote this article, he was only experiencing the ‘impersonality’ aspect of no-self + I AM realization, so that no-self spoken in there is about impersonality, nothing more, he wasn't even clear about nondual yet: Awakening to the Natural State — yet he clearly delineated the two insights (I AM and impersonality) as both different yet crucial and complementary to his understanding and breakthrough.

I suppose some do have anatta sort of insight from LU and Ruthless Truth but it is a minority. Hale Oh said he realised anatta in LU, and prior to that he was at the I AM phase.

Liberation Unleashed was the offshoot of Ruthless Truth, exactly same approach also, so these comments apply:

Conversation — 18 May 2011

Thusness: Don't over-promote Ruthless Truth. Many of the "blue status" members aren't realizing anatta, and that is not the way to teach.

AEN: I see. Yeah, I do notice that many have not realized anatta. Why is it not the way to teach?

Thusness: What are they teaching? Everything isn't clear. How is it that you introduce people to this site here and there instead of leading people to the right path with the right view? There are so many good Buddhist sites with right teaching. Some don't even have non-dual view, and with all these over-claiming, don't mislead people. How things manifest is not clear; anatta is not clear; non-dual is not clear. There is not even the experience of I AM.

AEN: I see. Yeah, they don't talk about I AM. I think it is a mix of people in impersonality, non-dual, and anatta. I mean the site.

Thusness: Not only that, there is no clear insight. So don't anyhow claim about enlightenment and lead people to enlightenment. Worst still is over-claiming that insight of anatta arises. This is pure nonsense. What anatta? Didn't I tell you experience of "no-mind" is not anatta? From a scale of 1 to 10, I don't even rate it a 2. Don't anyhow introduce people; that will only mislead people. Not even Actual Freedom. There is no shortcut. Don't get mixed up and confused. Out of 10 questions asked about anatta, I don't think they can pass even one. Lead them to the right Buddhist site.

AEN: What questions?

Thusness: There is Mahamudra. You mean Ruthless Truth has clarity?

AEN: Not really.

Thusness: Then? Anatta must be understood with Dependent Origination. Don't create Buddha. You are misrepresenting Buddhism. I don't even dare say I understand the profound teaching of Buddha. How is anatta the end of the path? Didn't I tell you it is only the beginning stage? And from a scale of 1 to 10 in the bhumis, what has one understood? Understand clearly that it is only the bare beginning of rightly understanding liberation. Also, do not give people the impression that anatta is the end of the path. Also, the releasing is still not there. As for you, release your contraction. Your latent tendencies are still strong despite your realization.

AEN: Means sense of self?

Thusness: Your mind and body. You are unable to let go non-dually. It means your latent inherent tendencies are still very strong. Sit and let go of your entire mind and body. Meet conditions and let go. When you answer your parents, treat it as a form of practice too. Smile in your heart and be patient. After realization, meditate on the Six Entries and Exits. Feel that whatever arises is primordially pure. Then allow it to meet daily matters... see how it arises... and understand the latent deep. That is then true practice.

AEN: I see. Letting go non-dually—is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isn't even "a universe"...

Thusness: No. That is completely wrong. After anatta, you are able to experience whatever arises directly. Feel wholly. Yet you are still contracting. Your entire body is imprinted to hold. Letting go non-dually means allow whatever arises to let go. By its own accord, non-dually. Not by disassociation. Practice this. Your mind, your thoughts, your body—without ground, without center, without essence. Like painting on a pond. You understand theoretically but not in direct experience. There is realization but experience is still on the surface. Is your body releasing?

AEN: It feels like any "I" or anything is dissolving into just the universe... and not only that the entire universe is dissolving, gone each moment.

Thusness: Is your mind in a state of perpetual releasing?

AEN: I wouldn't say perpetual... like every moment of my life I guess... but it's like kind of normal.

Thusness: No. Now you are only without background, but not releasing. Your experience is direct, vivid, and clear, but not releasing. Experience is spontaneous but not releasing. That is different. Spontaneous because of Dependent Origination, but if latent tendencies are there, what arises is like a perpetual holding mode. Just like an arising thought, there is no one behind, but that "thought" is attachment. Is holding. Get it? Like your attachment to the forum. Now there are two ways: one is disassociation, one is letting go due to its nature. When I told you to let go, initially we do it by way of disassociation. Even after arising insight of anatta, we still do it that way. But we understand what it meant. However, most of the time, releasing and letting go is still very much dualistic.

AEN: I see. What is letting go dualistically? Means there is aversion? Or trying to tune things out?

Thusness: You may think your letting go is natural, but it is not. It is still a form of disassociation. When you hear music, listen and experience how it disappears... like painting on the surface of a pond. Slowly dissolve into tracelessness. As itself and by itself dissolve into tracelessness. When you breathe... train yourself to be in tune with the flow. Your thoughts. Your body and your mind must be in a state of perpetual releasing. This is very important.

AEN: Means everything is like gone and fresh without clinging to a previous moment?

Thusness: Don't worry about being fresh. Means phenomena itself is releasing. Mental states. Body. Mind. Whatever arises. Now your experience is still very skewed towards intensity of luminosity. Feels experiencing directly and wholly. Like I told you about the mandala, vivid and clear... then gone. Although you understand, you have not experienced clearly yet.

AEN: It's similar to what I said right? "Letting go non-dually is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isn't even 'a universe'..."

Thusness: No. When you experienced, you will not be writing this way. Why do you worry about the universe?

AEN: For example, if I am walking on the street... there isn't a perception even of moving from one location to another... in fact there is not even a perception of there being a universe... it's utterly empty and self-releasing... nothing I can pin down.

Thusness: Why universe? Why do you worry so much about the universe?

AEN: Yeah... that's what I mean. There isn't a universe.

Thusness: So why mention about it?

AEN: Because prior to this the universe still does have a tinge of appearing solid... like it's "there"... but now that can't be said.

Thusness: It is not experience becoming dream-like. I mean saying the releasing. Did you experience that releasing?

AEN: If you mean everything is gone every moment and nothing solid there then yes... but if you mean something else then I don't know.

Thusness: No, I am not referring to nothing solid... I am telling you the releasing. Aiyoh... you know what is releasing or not? The feeling of letting go...

AEN: Is it like the tranquilizing of body and mind that I talked about?

Thusness: Do you have that feeling of letting go? Not stillness. Like now you are very attached. Then the letting go of this attachment... let go... get it? Like you are very attached to answering to Kian... I tell you to let go... gone... get it? One is holding, one is letting. Your mind is holding. I told you let go... get it?

AEN: Just now I took a glance at Taobums, then headache... then I just let go. Gone.

Thusness: Let's say in the seen, just the seen... I tell you to let go of that... gone... no more. Gate gate... gone... like the Heart Sutra. Currently there is still a sense of "let go." It is just that arising letting go of itself. I am not referring to the explanation... I am referring to that experience. I am not referring to that you realize that. I am saying that "releasing." It is just like luminosity... you directly experience the non-dual luminosity. Clear, vivid... pristine... and brilliantly present. I am not referring to that "releasing." Did you experience it?

AEN: Yeah, I mean if I open to sensations as they are, they simply subside momentarily by itself... it is because I don't open to sensations as they are, that I cling to things solidly.

Thusness: Aiyoh. I am saying did you experience that releasing? It is like there is no-self. It is like you tell someone there is no-self. The question is did that someone directly experience the no-self? Once you experience no-self, you clearly understand no-self. I mean now say, about that releasing... get it?

AEN: More like non-abiding.

Thusness: More like stainless.

AEN: What I experience is that every moment is gone and fresh without any sense of linking with the past... but there is also not even the "present" as everything is really dissolving, not solid, not graspable.

Thusness: You know what is burden or not? Like walking 24km... then you completed. Finished... release... get it? Do you have that feeling? Can you get what I meant? What you are telling me is phenomena is empty... you realize... it is passing away. Get it? It is like you are watching... phenomena is gone. It is different from being that phenomena that is gone. The burden is gone. Like you are holding a rifle over your head. Tiring... then you let go... that letting go sensation. Releasing. Get it? Not "I see phenomena is ever passing," dreamlike. I am referring to that: do you have that feeling of releasing?

AEN: No, I don't feel that kind of releasing I think. I mean like what you described above.

Thusness: Yeah. Like when you first experience anatta. No-self. The weight is gone. There is a sense of relief too. On top of the vividness. Suddenly that linkage is gone. Get it? Like you are in conflict with someone. Suddenly both of you patch up. Relief and release. That feeling. Get it? Like you are having anger. Let go.

AEN: I see. So you're saying one should practice this?

Thusness: If you do not understand this, you will need to undergo suffering to release. Practice because it is not clear... the experience is not obvious. No owner is clear; no background is clear. The releasing is still very much lacking. Practice letting go as if you are willing to drop everything. I go sleep already.

AEN: I see. Good night.

Soh Wei Yu

One of the co-founders of LU, Elena Nezhinsky, 'gated' at Ruthless Truth and experienced impersonality/non-doership. She started LU and only many years after starting LU did she realize I AM through self-enquiry. Then after I AM, the nondual aspect.

Also I wrote this article which some may find helpful: Different Degrees of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls




Update, 2025, Soh wrote to someone:

Hi,

Regarding the use of AI, I actually think it is okay for guides to use AI to write and polish message replies, provided they are using it correctly. The key is not that they use it, but how they use it.

For example, even though I am using AI to help draft this reply to you right now, it is not a random message generated by simply prompting "X said this, write a reply." Rather, it contains my specific, directed thoughts and points, but perhaps expressed with better structure or clarity by the AI. If the guide is feeding their specific pointing instructions into an LLM to improve communication, that is a tool. If they are letting the LLM do the guiding without oversight, that is a problem.

However, I believe there is a bigger issue here than the AI itself: the question of whether the guidance at Liberation Unleashed (LU) is misleading or incomplete regarding the final goal.

It is important to note that Liberation Unleashed—and similar approaches—most of the time leads only to a preliminary type of no-self realization often called "Impersonality" or "Non-doership." While valuable, this is not yet the non-dual realization or the insight of Anatta (no-self) that I (or teachers like Angelo DiLullo) talk about. In fact, it lacks even the initial I AM awakening (or what Angelo calls the realization of unbounded consciousness or the preliminary 'awakening'). On the I AM and further stages of awakening, see https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

I have written extensively on why this distinction matters and the pitfalls of stopping at the "LU stage." or "mere impersonality". I highly recommend reading these two articles that I have posted in my blog to understand what I mean:

1. On the specific approach of LU: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/10/is-liberation-unleashed-similar-to-atr.html

2. On the different stages of insight (Crucial for distinguishing Impersonality from Anatta): https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html

 Mr Z.R wrote: