Important message for everyone.  

The two stanzas of anatta are linked to this: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/06/pellucid-no-self-non-doership.html

[8:40 PM, 6/9/2021] John Tan: 1. Dzogchen has a phrase "spontaneous presence". I do not know it's exact meaning in dzogchen however the phrase is intimately related to the 2 experiences of the 2 stanzas:

1. No doership = spontaneous

2. Mere appearances as Presence

You'll see that I wrote about both aspects in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/04/why-awakening-is-so-worth-it.html

Without realizing of the second stanza of anatta in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html , it is not considered genuine anatman (no-self) realisation in AtR. Related: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/06/pellucid-no-self-non-doership.html , http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/07/i-was-having-conversation-with-someone.html , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/02/the-transient-universe-has-heart.html , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/05/nice-advice-and-expression-of-anatta-in.html

I have also remarked that 99% of the time, people who said they realised no-self merely experienced the non-doership aspect and not the genuine nondual anatman realisation. Also see: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html

Based on my experiences from discussions with thousands of individuals, I've observed that claims of recognizing nonduality—where there's no differentiation between the internal and external, or an absence of self—do not necessarily indicate a true realization of anatman or an authentic nondual experience or insight. Often, there is a chance that the person is simply adopting specific jargon or imitating others, under the impression that they have reached a similar level of understanding. However, in reality, their experience may only encompass a sense of impersonality and non-doership, rather than a genuine nondual experience or insight.

I (Soh) have once asked John Tan if he thinks a certain teacher has realised anatta, to which John replied, “There is no authentication of one's radiance, no recognition of appearances as one's radiance and no clear pointing of how conventional constructs (Soh: are seen through and released).  So what led you to that conclusion?” 

Additionally, commenting on a certain teacher’s writings, John Tan wrote,

“When we say "Mind is the great earth", the first step is to understand and taste what is mind before we go a step further.

If the teaching doesn't teach and taste what mind is, then it is just beautiful talks and grandious speech.

Next one has to point out what is "great earth"?  Where is this "great earth"?  The soil, the ground, the flower, the air or buildings or the conventional world?

Then talk about what is total exertion they have been talking?

Then the integration of the mind and total exertion and that is +A.”

However it does not mean the second stanza of anatta is more important than the first stanza. In fact, after awakening the second stanza of anatta, the pellucid radiance as all appearances beyond the paradigm of subject-action-object, it is vital to penetrate deeply into the first stanza.

Everything self-arises without doer or agent, as natural as breathing and heart beating. Thoroughly penetrating this, be completely spontaneous and effortless and releasing. Natural radiance is completely effortless, 0 effort required at all. Let deep insight into anatman and emptiness carry you into self-liberation and spontaneous perfection and dissolve the disease of effort and subtle overfocusing or clinging to radiance. As John Tan also said before, it is important not to over emphasize on the radiance (lest it causes the unpleasant effects of energy imbalance), and that it must be complemented with the first stanza of non-doership. He added that after non-dual, one's practice must be relaxed and open, insubstantial and free -- be natural and open, light, relaxed and effortless, then contemplate on effortlessness. The openness and relaxation should build up into a momentum in one's practice. Additionally, as John Tan said, we have to understand the relationship between non-doership and total exertion -- allowing the totality of the situations to exert itself. Seen from one side of the coin, it is complete "effortlessness" of radiance, and seen from another side, it is the exertion of the totality of conditions.

Satsang Nathan videos are a good expression of the non-doership aspect of anatta. See: Satsang Nathan Videos

To emphasize: building up the momentum mentioned above in practice is crucial. To paraphrase John Tan, "You must engage in regular practice and refrain from pretentious wisdom until a certain momentum builds. Only then can you hope to overcome challenges associated with x's issues. I am sincere in my advice; you have not yet experienced these issues firsthand, but when you do, you will understand the importance of mastering this art.

If you practice meditation consistently, both in opening up and in your daily life, a momentum will eventually develop. Even when challenges arise, if you can manage to stay calm and allow this momentum to guide you, you will find yourself capable of overcoming them.

It resembles the art of letting go, although it's quite challenging to articulate effectively. Our natural tendency leans towards attachment, regardless of how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise. This is why consistent practice is essential.

You may spend all day discussing the concept of freedom from all elaborations, the natural state, and sounds, and you might even gain some insights. However, when you are confronted with these issues for various reasons, all your attachments will come to the forefront.

Fears about death, health, and personal anomalies will emerge. Your mind will struggle to release these attachments.”

John Tan also told X before, “You got good karma...just relax and understand that essencelessness also implies effortlessness, don't focus, don't concentrate.  Simply refine the view and understanding after anatta insight that appearances are one's radiance.”

John also wrote to X, a friend of ours, “Can be overcomed. I used to have very intense energy disruptions of energy imbalance post I AM due to over focusing. 

Currently I think it is better to let the body and mind calm down first through distractions, shifting attentions...the body and mind at the very subtle level is very sensitive, the hidden fear will just sway ur entire balance.

Medicines do help and I think you should.

We must be very careful, there is relaxation of mind that lead to more alertness and there is the relaxation that calms the mind into peace via overcoming afflictions (eg fear).

When we are in a state of later, then we can rest and response to conditions in balance.”

John also wrote to me before, “ Focus on "effortlessness" first, then later you release you can let go of ur thoughts and let what happen happens as happening...but you may later feel you are unable to concentrate, it's ok...slowly and gently recall that appearances are one's own radiance, then radiance is by nature beyond effort...get use to it first.

Whatever appears by nature self liberates.”

If insight and practice is not mature in this aspect and radiance becomes strong, and one subtly overfocuses on the radiance, one runs the risk of encountering painful energy imbalances leading to stuck energy in the brow chakra, serious tension, headaches, insomnia (literally 0 sleep at night, super consciousness throughout night which some mistakes as accomplishment), waves of energy that feels like panic attacks (I said feels like because it was more of a bodily than a mental fear, it was a very tense and “nervous” bodily sensation running through the body), and worse symptoms than that. I've had such unpleasant encounters in 2019 for seven days, as detailed in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/03/the-magical-fairytale-like-wonderland.html. This leads to what is known as 'zen sickness' which doctors will not be able to cure, and I have dedicated a whole chapter to this topic in the original AtR guide. I've been fortunate to have not re-trigger such episodes through a shift in practice but have seen others experience something similar. So, it is my heartfelt wish that people don't go in the wrong direction in practice. Please take care and practice well.

Perhaps if you are interested in Dzogchen, receive transmission and teachings from  Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith (who also likewise stressed on this crucial aspect of non-doership and effortlessness of radiance appearances in anatta, and the integration of the 2 stanzas of anatta -- it is not in his public writings but in his online teachings to subscribers which I attended) and get the book 'The Supreme Source' which elucidates clearly the total effortlessness of spontaneously perfect and self-arising nature of total presence. But please do not DIY Dzogchen as that will be extremely misleading, but rather find good teachers (e.g. Acarya Malcolm) in that tradition. You can watch this YouTube video (highly recommended) for an introduction to Acarya Malcolm’s Dzogchen teachings that was recommended by Sim Pern Chong on the AtR group: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/09/talk-on-buddhahood-in-this-life.html . Also, some of Malcolm’s writings can be found here https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/02/clarifications-on-dharmakaya-and-basis_16.html . To practice that book "The Supreme Source", empowerment, direct introduction and guidance from a qualified Dzogchen teacher is necessary, and it is certainly not to be mistaken as lazing around without practice nor the nihilism of neo-Advaita. Case in point: https://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2015/08/ground-path-fruition_13.html

Here’s a good video shared by John Tan:

 "Did Buddha ever taught physical reality was/is an "illusion"?"

Krodha replied the redditor:

Yes, this is a strong theme throughout Buddhist teachings.

Some examples from the Pali Canon, starting with the Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta SN 22.95:

Form is like a lump of foam; feeling is like a bubble; perception seems like a mirage; choices like a banana tree; and consciousness like a magic trick: so taught the Kinsman of the Sun. However you contemplate them, examining them carefully, they’re void and hollow when you look at them closely. Concerning this body, he of vast wisdom has taught that when three things are given up, you’ll see this form discarded. Vitality, warmth, and consciousness: when they leave the body, it lies there tossed aside, food for others, mindless.

Such is this process, this illusion, cooed over by fools. It’s said to be a killer, for no substance is found here. An energetic mendicant should examine the aggregates like this, with situational awareness and mindfulness whether by day or by night.

They should give up all fetters, and make a refuge for themselves. They should live as though their head was on fire, aspiring to the imperishable state.

Another from Udānavarga 2.18:

He who has perceived that this body is (empty) as a vase, and who knows that all things (dharma) are as an illusion, does thus destroy the chief of Māra's flowers, and will no more be seen by the king of death.

He who has perceived that this world is like froth, and who knows that all things are as an illusion, does thus destroy the chief of Māra's flowers, and will no more be seen by the king of death. He who has perceived that this body is like froth, and who knows that all things are as an illusion, does thus destroy the chief of Māra's flowers, and will no more be seen by the king of death.

Another, SA 265:

Monks, it is just as if a master magician or the disciple of a master magician at a crossroads creates the magical illusion of an elephant troop, a horse troop, a chariot troop, and an infantry troop, and a clear-sighted person carefully examines, attends to, and analyses it. At the time of carefully examining, attending to, and analysing it, he finds that there is nothing in it, nothing stable, nothing substantial, it has no solidity. Why is that? It is because there is nothing solid or substantial in a magical illusion.

Some Mahāyāna examples, in the Bhadramāyākāra Sūtra, it is said:

Maudgalyāyana, moreover, since the illusions of Bhadra the Magician are partial, his illusions are not true; but the illusions of the Tathāgata are true, therefore, all phenomena are fully realized to be illusory.

The Samādhirāja states:

All existence is like an illusion, powerless, like foam that gathers and becomes hollow.

And,

The primal nature of phenomena is empty, like an illusion, which tirthikas are unable to know. Understanding all phenomena to be similar to illusions, is not the domain of signs.

The Ārya-lalitavistara-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra says:

Because of dwelling in the equivalence of all phenomena with illusions, mirages, dreams, water moons, echoes and double vision, the Dharma free of affliction is perfectly realized.

The Ārya-mañjuśrīvikurvāṇaparivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra:

Further, sister, the five aggregates are illusory. They do not exist. There is no arising of erroneous action. It is conventionally designated through an error. Sister, awakening is like an illusion, it does not exist, it is conventionally designated through an error. Sister, though awakening is like an illusion, it does not exist, it is conventionally designated through an error. Therefore, sister, because illusions are the same, the aggregates are the same. Because the aggregates are the same, illusion is the same. Since illusion is the same, awakening is the same. Since awakening is the same, illusion is the same. Sister, therefore, I call you "awakened".

The Ārya-ghanavyūha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra says:

The suchness of all phenomena arises through power of mutual relation, the yogins seeing in that way clearly see it as suchness. The perfected nature is the dharmatā of phenomena; all phenomena do not arise as the substantial entities of the imputed: empty, insubstantial, beyond the extremes of existence and nonexistence, similar with illusions and dreams, like fairy castles, like opthalmia and like mirages.

The Acintyastavaḥ says:

Like a dream, an illusion, [or] seeing two moons: Thus have You [The Buddha] seen the world, as a creation not created as real. Like a son who is born, established, and dies in a dream, the world, You have said, is not really born, does not endure, and is not destroyed... According to cognition of truth, [however], You maintain that there is no annihilation or permanence. [You] assert that the entire world is empty of substance, like a mirage.

The Lokātītastava states:

You [The Buddha] have stated that all arising is like the arising of an illusion. Therefore You have fully understood that this world has arisen due to imagination. It is unreal, [and] not having originated it cannot be destroyed.

The Mahāyānaviṁśikā:

The object of knowledge in dream is not seen when one awakes. Similarly the world disappears to him who is awakened from the darkness of ignorance. The creation of illusion is nothing but illusion. When everything is compound there is nothing which can be regarded as a real thing. Such is the nature of all things. As the figments of a dream dissolve upon waking, so the confusion of Samsara fades away in enlightenment.

——-

Interesting that people are upvoting u/Sneezlebee’s inaccurate answer that “the Buddha never said physical reality itself is an illusion.”

And OP finds that “reassuring.” No offense but that inclination to seek a secure refuge or landing place should be thoroughly investigated. That is how deep our conditioning is.

Like the Ḍākārṇava Tantra says:

Everyone is confused by illusion; but the wise are liberated by illusion.

Seeing that this world - this so-called “physical reality” - is an illusion, is the doorway to liberation. Reifying this illusory reality as stable and real (vāstu) will seed the causes for the continual cycle of suffering.

There are two obscurations that prevent us from attaining buddhahood. These two obscurations must be eliminated to attain buddhahood. The first, the afflictive obscuration, is the perception of a self. The second, the cognitive obscuration, is the perception of an real external physical reality. Buddhas have eliminated both of these obscurations, they do not perceive a physical reality.

From Rongzom:

Moreover, the way [a buddha] knows and sees is not like holding [entities] to be substantial. He knows and sees [them] as an illusion. Likewise, the Dharmasaṃgītisūtra states:

For example, some magicians attempt to free a magically created [being by removing its magical power]. Since they already know [that it is an illusion], they face no obstructions to [correctly perceiving] that illusion-[like being]. Likewise, the wise, who are fully awakened, perceive the three [realms of] existence to be illusion-like.

Also, in the Pitāputrasamāgamasūtra it is stated:

Because a magician knows the magical apparition created [by him] to be an illusion, he is not confused by it. You, [too,] see the entire world ('gro ba: jagat) in this way. [I] pay homage and praise to one who sees everything [in this way].

Further, some say: The fully awakened one possesses the knowledge of the absolute, [namely], the so-called gnosis of knowing [phenomena] as [they actually] are, but does not possess the knowledge of the conventional, the so-called gnosis of knowing [phenomena] to the full extent. It is not that something knowable (mkhyen rgyu yod pa) is not known [by a buddha]. But since conventional knowable [phenomena] are non-existent, there is no gnosis of perceiving them [either]. How is it that conventional [phenomena] are non-existent? Conventional [phenomena] appear to ordinary beings as they are, namely, caused [in their case] by defiled ignorance (nyon mongs pa can gyi ma rig pa). They appear to the three [types of] nobles (i.e., śrāvaka saints, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas) as they are, namely, caused [in their case] by undefiled ignorance (nyon mongs pa can ma ying pa'i ma rig pa). It is, for example, like the appearance of strands of hair and [other] 'floaters' (rab rib: timira) to a [person] suffering from an eye disease. [Immediately] after the Diamond-like Samadhi [has arisen in him], a buddha discards [even undefiled] ignorance, and sees true reality, in that [he] does not see any phenomena. Therefore, these deceptive conventional [phenomena] do not exist in a buddha['s field of perception].

Also, Sneezlebee’s assessment that “consciousness dreaming the body” is a “new age” view is really not the case. This is implied in buddhadharma, and stated explicitly in some systems, the Khandro Nyinthig says:

To sum it all up, ignorant attachment to dualistic appearances assembles the rtsal of gnosis (jñāna - pristine consciousness) into the [four material] elements, and forms the body in actuality.

Winston Tg shared this with me. Nicely expressed by Anzan Hoshin Roshi. From mirror bright to no mirror (anatman) realisation.

https://wwzc.org/dharma-text/difficulty-strangeness-beauty

Difficulty, Strangeness, Beauty

Presented by Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi

Zazen-ji, December 13, 1988

Printed in Zanmai #7, Winter 1991 Issue

Good evening. This is the evening of Tuesday, December the 13th, 1988, and it is one day after the ninth year anniversary of the death of my own beloved teacher, Yasuda Joshu Dainen Hakukaze roshi... I think back to the time that I first arrived at Hakukaze-ji, to take up the practice of the Way of Zen under Joshu roshi.

When I arrived at the train station, somebody was there to greet me and to drive me to the monastery. We drove along a dirt road and it was raining. The rain was washing down the windows, and the wind-shield wipers were making their arcs through the path of the drops. After some time, we turned into a lane-way and I could see the farmhouse and the barn, trees and long grasses. The leaves of the trees were bowed under the pressure of the raindrops and the wind was moving the long grasses. I was told to wait there until Joshu roshi sent for me.

I looked for a place that was somewhat dry, to put down my sack. It was raining all around me. I put down the sack, sat on top of it, and waited. The rain fell. I had long hair at that point, and so I had hair in my eyes and I was breathing rain in and out of my nostrils. Since I was quite young, the rain and cold didn't particularly bother me physically, but mentally it did. I was pissed off. I sat there for four hours, because I knew that if Joshu roshi said to wait there, I had to wait there. I also knew, from my brief meeting with him some weeks before, that when he did call me in, he would say something like: “Aren't you even smart enough to come in from the rain?” And so I sat there and waited.

Finally a monk in a rain poncho came out and said “Please come in”. We went in through the back door into the kitchen. Joshu roshi looked at me and said, “Aren't you even smart enough to come in from the rain?”  He threw me a towel. Somehow I laughed.

This practice of Zen is difficult right from the very beginning. Sometimes it is difficult physically; our knees hurt, our back aches, we have to get up so early in the morning. Sometimes it is difficult because our feelings ache. This practice hurts our pride. It hurts our pride because we find ourselves in a situation beyond our control, even though everything is very clean, very sharp, very clear; you sit until the bell rings, then you take care of your zafu and you stand up. Despite the fact that things are so simple and there are so many straight lines in our practice, we find that it is out of our control. Thoughts and feelings come up which we would rather not have to face; thoughts that we've spent a lifetime convincing ourselves are not us; thoughts that we just do not have. We're brought face-to-face, again and again, with all of who and what we are. And so our pride is hurt.

When our pride is hurt, sometimes, this is truly the beginning of healing because, when we drop our pride, when we drop our humbleness, we can begin to find that another quality entirely will manifest: a quality of unshakeable confidence. The confidence of this moment. The confidence of the heart of our lives. This heart of our lives arises as the entirety of what we experience, the vastness and vividness of this present moment without barrier. This confidence that we learn, and we begin to be able to naturally manifest, is not the kind of confidence that arises out of a self-help course, or out of having toughened something up, of “knowing that we can take it”. It is an unconditional confidence. It is unshakeability. And so, when we hear terms like “the iron man”, or “dukkha”, or “the mile high cliff”, we begin to understand.

Sitting in the rain, being drenched by the rain, I began to feel the raindrops, to watch them explode around me as they touched the ground, or entered puddles, the slant of the rain changing with the direction and strength of the wind. This was so beautiful. Despite the fact that our practice is difficult, it is also very beautiful. When I actually noticed the raindrops, I felt and saw and breathed how beautiful they were.

When we begin to notice our lives, when we begin to practise this attention, we begin to understand an unconditional beauty beyond good and bad. We begin to understand our lives. At the moment that we truly drop attempting to understand our lives, when there is “no understanding”, our understanding is complete. When our understanding becomes complete, it is time to drop that and go yet further, because once we realise the unconditional confidence of the “mile high cliff”, it is time to take a step off that cliff.

Taking such a step, there can only be one step. There is no room or time for a second step. This is realizing this single bodymind as the display of all directions, of all times, and dropping this bodymind, dropping all directions, all times, so that one can act freely, can come in and go out, can range throughout the six realms, can dance atop the pile of the five skandhas and realise the Unborn Nature of all conditions.

Zen is not only difficult, not only beautiful, but also a very strange thing to do. When we attend to just how strange a thing it is to do, we are shocked. Yet, despite the fact that it is strange, it makes absolute and complete sense. There is something in us that responds “Yes!”, something in us which recognizes the strange things that the teacher says in dokusan and teisho. There is something in us that recognizes the beauty of this practice and finds itself at great ease in the midst of the difficulty.

It truly becomes very difficult to say anything about this practice. When we try to talk about this Way of Zen, as a whole, what seems difficult at one time, at other times seems easy. It is only when we pick up a particular facet of this practice, that we can say anything about it; but this practice is only a facet of a jewel called Zen. This practice of which we speak, in this moment, is only one of a hundred thousand facets of practice of this jewel of Zen. Our practice is changing from moment to moment. Our practice is turning from moment to moment; sometimes easy, sometimes difficult.

When we find it to be at its most difficult, we must realise that it is self-image that finds it difficult, and it is self-image that makes it difficult. It makes it difficult through wandering and sinking, through obsessing, through playing its games and strategies, through trying to make its deals and then finding that they just don't work, and it finds all of this so difficult it could just scream. But, what is it that is aware of this difficulty?  Where do the games and strategies come from? Where do they go?  When this thought arises, at the moment of its arising, it ceases. When this sound is heard, it is gone. Where is there difficulty in this?  Where is there ease in this?

The place of true practice is really the heart of our lives. The heart of our lives has no shape, has no form. Sometimes it looks like this wall, sometimes it feels like the floor, sometimes it feels like a dream, sometimes it is eating and drinking, sometimes it is driving along a highway, or wandering in the forest, sometimes it is morning and sometimes it is night. This heart of our lives has no form, no shape. It is defined by none of these thoughts and none of these feelings. It is completely unobstructed. The heart of our lives extends in all directions. It is the very direction that we face. It is the faceless face without direction, without time, without expression, without a smile, without a scowl.

The true place of practice is this heart, this Original Face. We practise to glimpse this Original Face. Once we do so, if we continue to practise, we will realise that it was the Original Face which had this glimpse and then, there is only seeing this Original Face. We discover that our life, all worlds, are simply the display of this Faceless Face and all Dharmas are reflections arising on the Mirror of Mind.

If we go yet further, we polish this Mirror, and we begin to realise its vastness and how far it extends in all directions. We realise that it truly is the place in which all dharmas arise. It is the arising of all dharmas. It is the decaying of all dharmas, it is this impermanence, it is this heartbeat, this breath. Going yet further, we see that, that which we were polishing itself shines. Even the dust that is gathered upon this Mirror is bright. We see that even the confusion, the strategies, the deep-rooted tendencies, are simply the display of this Mirror.

Going even further, (Roshi bangs nyoi staff on the floor), we shatter this Mirror, and then we're truly free. Being truly free, we realise that we need be nothing at all. We need not even be everything. We need not even be “one” with the All. It is at this point that we understand JUST THIS. It is at this point that we truly understand the heart of our lives. It is at this point that all understanding drops away, because we can no longer find a knower and a known, and there is just this Knowing.

Sometimes our practice is difficult and sometimes it is easy. Sometimes it is shallow and sometimes it is deep, but this practice is the transmission of freedom, it is the transmission of ourselves to ourselves.

Perhaps one of the most frustrating things in this practice is realizing that there is nothing that we can give our teacher and nothing that our teacher can give us. The teacher is just like our practice: something that we can't really understand. Our practice, our teacher, the environment of training and the Lineage of Ancestors simply points, simply question us, again and again: Who are you?  What is this body?  This mind? If the realization of the Buddha could be given to you, it could be taken away from you. What is it which cannot be given and cannot be taken?  What is it that you have always had so long? That you do not even have, because it is what you are?

Whether our practice is difficult or easy, this is what we must realise. This is what we must practise. Simply this questioning, this looking, this attending. We must realise what it is that attends and then we will realise the Mind of the Lineage, the Mind of the Buddhas and Dharma Ancestors, the mind of all beings.

Practice always begins now. It begins at the moment of hearing this sound. It begins at the moment of this breath. It begins this cold December evening. Practice begins wherever you are. Right now. Let's not avoid the difficulties of our practice. Let's not avoid the beauty of our practice. Let's not avoid being shocked by our practice. Let's not avoid that which recognizes what is being pointed to.

Please enter into this practice most fully. Enter into your lives most fully. Enter into this breath most fully. Sharpen and clarify your mindfulness of this moment. Live this moment fully, with the whole body. Live in each moment with the whole body until you realise what this living is, and then there will no longer be any question of “whole body”. There will be JUST THIS.

In this moment there is just this: just this moment, just this practice, just this difficulty, just this ease.

Please, practise to your utmost and enjoy yourselves.

The sequel to this transcript is Standing in the Rain (Tangaryo)

Also See: Teachers who Realised Anatta

In their journey towards a deeper understanding of nonduality and anatta, individuals frequently face the decision of whether to seek a teacher, guide, engage in one-on-one personal mentorship, participate in coaching programs, or explore other forms of spiritual guidance. This complex and nuanced topic has been extensively discussed in various online platforms, shedding light on the experiences and insights of different practitioners and teachers.

I, Soh, an admin of the Awakening to Reality Facebook group and co-author of AtR, addressed this topic by highlighting the practical challenges of offering mentorship while holding a full-time job. I emphasized that it's difficult to mentor a large community and maintain a separate career unless one decides to dedicate full-time to coaching, which would necessitate charging a fee for survival. This is a path I have chosen not to pursue, preferring to maintain my current career over giving up for full-time spiritual coaching​​.

The conversation extends to different paths within spiritual practice. Some practitioners, like Yin Ling, are inclined towards the Vipassana path, which leads more to nondual and anatta insights. Yin Ling's journey, detailed on the AtR website in the article "6) Nice Advice and Expression of Anatta from Yin Ling and Albert Hong + What is Experiential Insight?", provides valuable insights for those interested in this particular path.

Regarding Dzogchen teachings, Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith stands out as a key figure. He offers teachings and practice instructions through his website, www.zangthal.com, with a structured fee. You can watch this YouTube video (highly recommended) for an introduction to Acarya Malcolm’s Dzogchen teachings that was recommended by Sim Pern Chong on the AtR group: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/09/talk-on-buddhahood-in-this-life.html . Also, some of Malcolm’s writings can be found here https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/02/clarifications-on-dharmakaya-and-basis_16.html . His approach includes regular Zoom sessions and encourages students to email their queries, albeit concisely due to his large student base and other professional responsibilities​​. 

Similarly, Zen teacher Venerable Jinmyo Renge Sensei offers a long-distance training program in Zen, accessible via www.wwzc.org, which is akin to Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith's approach in terms of structure and fees. You can read some of her articles here https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/04/tada.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/12/zen-master-ven-jinmyo-renge-senseis.html

On Reddit, a user inquired about finding a good nondual coach and guide. In response, I, Soh, referred to teachers like Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith and Zen teacher Venerable Jinmyo Renge Sensei, emphasizing that while these teachers do charge for their services, the fees are reasonable considering the support they provide to their communities and temples. I pointed out the importance of finding a practice, community, and teaching that resonates with the individual, rather than seeking quick solutions through one-time sessions. There are of course, many awakened teachers apart from these two that I have mentioned.

The teachings of Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith are particularly recommended for those interested in a deeper understanding of Dzogchen. His approach is structured and includes Dzogchen texts he personally translated, regular teachings and recordings which are also made available through his online platform, and the possibility of personal guidance through email correspondence. This method ensures a comprehensive and structured approach to Dzogchen, accommodating both beginners and advanced practitioners.

For those seeking mentorship or guidance in spiritual practices, the path is not always straightforward. The availability of mentors and the structure of their teachings vary, and fees may be involved. It's crucial to find a path and a teacher that resonate personally, ensuring a sustained and meaningful engagement with the practice. Whether through online platforms, formal teachings, or personal mentorship, the journey towards understanding nonduality and anatta is a deeply personal one, shaped by individual circumstances and commitments.

In addition to the various paths and teachers discussed in the context of spiritual mentorship and guidance, the significance of finding an awakened teacher cannot be overstated. As I, Soh, shared with someone recently, the teachings of the first Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma offer profound insights into this matter.

Bodhidharma, esteemed as the first patriarch of Chan/Zen, marking him as a foundational and transformative figure in the lineage and teachings of this tradition, emphasizes the crucial role of a teacher in the journey towards enlightenment. In his teachings, he states, "To find a Buddha, you have to see your nature. Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha. If you don’t see your nature, being mindful of Buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings, and keeping precepts are not equal to it. Being mindful of Buddhas results in good karma, reciting sutras results in a good intelligence; keeping precepts results in a good rebirth in heavens, and making offerings results in future blessings — but no buddha. If you don’t understand by yourself, you’ll have to find a teacher to know the root of births and deaths. But unless he sees his nature, such a person isn’t a good teacher. Even if he can recite the twelve groups of scriptures he can’t escape the Wheel of Births and Deaths. He suffers in the three realms without hope of release. Long ago, the monk Good Star was able to recite the twelve groups of scriptures. But he didn’t escape the Wheel, because he didn’t see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite a few sutras or shastras and think it’s the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your own Heart, reciting so much prose is useless.

To find a Buddha have to see your nature directly. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who’s free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don’t see your nature and run outwards to seek for external objects, you’ll never find a buddha. The truth is there’s nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a good teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand. Life and death are important. Don’t suffer them in vain.

There’s no advantage in deceiving yourself. Even if you have mountains of jewels and as many servants as there are grains of sand along the Ganges, you see them when your eyes are open. But what about when your eyes are shut? You should realize then that everything you see is like a dream or illusion. If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But without the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.

People who don’t understand and think they can do so without study are no different from those deluded souls who can’t tell white from black.” Falsely proclaiming the Buddha-Dharma, such persons in fact blaspheme the Buddha and subvert the Dharma. They preach as if they were bringing rain. But theirs is the preaching of devils not of Buddhas. Their teacher is the King of Devils and their disciples are the Devil’s minions. Deluded people who follow such instruction unwittingly sink deeper in the Sea of Birth and Death.

Unless they see their nature, how can people call themselves Buddhas they’re liars who deceive others into entering the realm of devils. Unless they see their nature, their preaching of the Twelvefold Canon is nothing but the preaching of devils. Their allegiance is to Mara, not to the Buddha. Unable to distinguish white from black, how can they escape birth and death?

Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha; whoever doesn’t is a mortal. But if you can find your buddha-nature apart from your mortal nature, where is it? Our mortal nature is our Buddha nature. Beyond this nature there’s no Buddha. The Buddha is our nature. There’s no Buddha besides this nature. And there’s no nature besides the Buddha."

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Zen teacher Ven Jinmyo Renge Sensei: "Sometimes students really can't understand why they can't just sit at home, by themselves, without instruction. After all, the Buddha did that. Bodhidharma did that. May I point out that you are not the Buddha and you are not Bodhidharma. You're also not Einstein and you're not going to come up with anything like the theory of relativity – not without countless years of instruction and study and probably not even then. You're not Bach and so it is highly unlikely that you will write music like his, not without countless years of instruction and study. Sorry if this is the first time anyone's pointed this out, but things are not all equal, they're not all fair, we do not all have the same starting point and you are as you are, not as someone else is. Or was. Start from where you are and be willing to learn from others.


You might not like what I just said, but do you understand why I said it?

I once asked the Roshi about Teachers – if two people who had nothing in common Woke Up and became Teachers, would they somehow come to agree with each other about everything? He said "No, but they would understand why the other was saying or doing what he or she was saying or doing."" - https://wwzc.org/book/export/html/1017

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Also See: Teachers who Realised Anatta