In response to someone's question in the thread https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/25213616491586443/?__cft__[0]=AZXkHSYlt0_3clNUX1ISUZkTb00AWIr5o6iHYR-Zb_6j9P-tFwql-mzbotFKgjq3z7atolRc3PcS4gHaYdfFuzjWM-59vtruRXAr0mBlmc0kbbUP5BV-0qU2vhMjIJcTCyfFj65HS4FO_8814BpM-OSY&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R]-R

First of all before I get into the main part of your questions, I just wanna mention a little about fetter model. Atr model actually doesnt emphasize fetter model. But I have to bring up fetter model, or rather correct people's misunderstandings of it from time to time in response to situations because of the questions and pervasive misunderstanding of the path, including the nature of stream entry (often misunderstood or mistaken as some sort of black out vacuum states or some other lesser insights before anatta and so on) or perhaps people thinking realisation of anatta is the ultimate finality or the final enlightenment and so on when in fact it's just stream entry. If i do bring up fetter model, it is usually due to a particular type of question (or misunderstanding(s)) that i deem appropriate to discuss that as a response.

Wrote to someone:

View of self (the view that an inherently existing self/Self in any way, shape and form, not only as an agent, doer, perceiver, even the illusion of a great Self, an unchanging Awareness and so forth is seen through and penetrated as illusory) is gone, subject-object duality and agent-action and agency can be gone after anatta realization but subtle appropriation in terms of mine-ness can arise. It manifests as an activity of appropriation and grasping

If you feel the slightest sense of being sad or unhappy if “your house” has burned down, or “your wife” leaves you, or “you get late stage cancer and has 3 months left” and so on, it means subtle appropriation of aggregates in terms of mine-ness still manifest. Otherwise no mental afflictions, sadness, fears and so on arises.

This is related to the Khemaka Sutta where an anagami basically implied realised there is no I yet the lingering traces of appropriating aggregates continues like the residual smell of a jug where contents have been poured away. While explaining the dharma he and others had a breakthrough where they attained arahantship and purified the last traces.

John Tan wrote to me in 2007,

“(6:58 PM) Thusness: Now at the phase 3 and 4 there is a constant re-enforcing of the thought that all is really the ‘True Self’. The non-dual experience is the experience of ‘True Self’ and is made more vivid when the lucidity of “Self as Forms’ or “Emptiness as Forms” is made more obvious.

(6:58 PM) Thusness: Conventionally speaking this is true, but just like the experience “AMness” that failed to penetrate the insight of “non duality and spontaneity” of our nature, the ‘non-dual’ experience of “Everything as Self’ fail to address ‘one point’.

What is that ‘one point’?

(6:58 PM) Thusness: That ‘one point’ is the differentiation between ‘I’ and ‘Mine’. This may not sound logical as if there is no ‘I’, how could there be ‘mine’ and it may ‘seem’ only natural that no ‘I’ will naturally lead to ‘no mine’, which in my experience is far from being true.

(6:58 PM) Thusness: This from my understanding remains true even when the experience of “Awareness as Forms” is vividly clear, ‘mine’ is not eliminated. :) There is indeed a difference and a new level of insight that may not be obvious now will need to surface later.

(6:59 PM) AEN: this para to who? longchen?

(6:59 PM) Thusness: Therefore the unknowing referencing back to ‘Self as everything’ is indeed a very very subtle propensity of what Buddhism call the ‘bonds in 7th and 8th Consciousness’ in action. The egoic structure is still lingering there in consciousness. That is, it is not only true that the ‘sense of self is not the doer of action’ but the entire idea of ‘mine’, ‘I own’, is a wrong view.

(6:59 PM) AEN: phase 3 as in the article's phase 3?

(6:59 PM) AEN: oh

(6:59 PM) AEN: ur stage 3 and 4 experience?

(6:59 PM) Thusness: That is when a ‘thought arise’, it is not ‘mine thought’ or ‘your thought’, in fact any arising has no mine or I, but arising is due to our dharma nature according to conditionality, the experience of Dharmakaya.

(7:00 PM) Thusness: It is quite hard to express but there is in fact some truth about the 4 immeasurables of Bodhisattva path in relation to our nature and its relations with regards to the experience of higher bliss and liberation; but then I am not advocating as what Dharma Dan put it, to groom oneself into an altruistic superstar.

(7:00 PM) Thusness: If you encounter any blockage in your future experience, you may want to think along this line. It can help you break-through some karmic hindrances. My 2 cents. :)”

He also wrote to someone back then,

“For the purpose of discussion, you can treat as yes, that agent is gone, the 'bond' in consciousness that there is an agent is gone. But the “bond' of 'mine' is still lingering there in consciousness. Many mistaken that if

there is no ‘I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.”

A dharma friend of mine, Yin Ling once wrote:

“Just a sharing, and see if my xp resonates with others.

I receive a kind message asking about how I “see” my emotion world and thought world as opposed to others?

There is always a continuum of thoughts for this being and we are not privy to another’s thought, that is for sure.

So the person ask, does that not affect how the whole “no self” experience?

I gave that a serious contemplation this morning’s meditation and look into my xp.

I realise there is two parts of the no self insight.

First part is like in the first few sentences of the Bahiya Sutta, “in the seen only the seen” and etc.

Manifestation and awareness arise in and of itself, without a seer, doer, hearer. That is clear when initial no self insight arise.

However xp always seen to be appropriated somewhere - like “my thoughts”, “my emotions” “my cognized” “my music” becusse we can’t see other ppls thoughts and emotions and we can’t hear what the hear.

There is this subtly “mine-ness” in xp, which is still an attachment.

Suddenly this morning the last part of Bahiya sutta sprung forth into attention - there is no you here, there is no you there, there is no you in between.. this is the end of suffering.

For all experience, there is no appropriation to a “you” or “mine”. Just that itself is all.

Imo, The Buddha was trying to teach us to dis-identified with “mine” in the second part, less of an I , as the I should be seen through in the first part of Bahiya sutta.

When there is no you/mine-ness in these emotions and thoughts, and they arise just dependently from conditions, not being appropriated to any person, all xp becomes equal and there is no worries of other ppls emotions and thoughts because even the emotions and thoughts that feels to be for this person here are not even “mine”. Xp sync!

I do love the Bahiya sutta. 😁😬”

Even after all traces of self-clinging and appropriation is obliterated completely along all traces to cling and any traces and tendencies towards any mental afflictions, which is a rare achievement, that is still like arahantship or eighh bhumi. There is still some ways to Buddhahood as the famous Tibetan Dzogchen Master Jamgon Mipam explained.

"PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT

What follows is a short explanation of the way Mipam presents the structure of the Buddhist path to awakening. According to him, we can only go so far in the Lesser Vehicle, realizing the lack of a personal self based on its path, but without the Great Vehicle, we will not come to fully realize the lack of self (that is, emptiness) with respect to all phenomena. In other words, those in the Lesser Vehicle realize only part of emptiness (the lack of a personal self) but do not realize the entire scope of emptiness. They hang on to an ultimate foundation of reality (the fundamental elements of reality, or dharmas), whereas there is actually no such foundation. Therefore, according to Mipam, one cannot become a buddha based solely on the Lesser Vehicle path; becoming a buddha is the result of the Great Vehicle. Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.

These afflictive obscurations function to prevent liberation, and they are tied in with the apprehension of a personal self. Based on the notion of such a self, we become attached (to me and mine) and averse (to what is other). This notion of self keeps the wheel of samsara rolling, because it perpetuates the distorted framework through which we selfishly act out attachment and aversion, thus sowing the seeds of suffering. Afflictive obscurations have two aspects: a gross, imputed aspect and a more subtle, innate aspect. According to Mipam, the imputed aspects are relinquished on the first “ground” (Tib. sa, Skt. bhūmi) when you directly perceive the suchness of reality. This experiential realization is called “the path of seeing.”

The imputed aspects of the afflictive obscurations are learned and not inborn like the innate aspects. Imputed aspects involve distortions that are explicitly conceptual, as opposed to the perceptual distortions that comprise the innate aspects. The difference between the imputed and innate aspects can be understood as something like the difference between software and hardware: the innate aspects are embedded more deeply in one’s mind-stream and are thus more difficult to eliminate. Imputed ego-clinging refers to imputing qualities to the self that are not there—namely, apprehending the self as a singular, permanent, and independent entity. This is overcome on the first bodhisattva ground in a direct, nonconceptual experience of reality that is the culminating insight of analysis. Nevertheless, the more subtle, innate aspect of ego-clinging hangs on.

The innate ego-clinging, as the bare sense of self that is imputed on the basis of the five aggregates, is more difficult to remove. Rather than construing qualities to the self such as singularity or permanence, it is a more subtle feeling of simply “I am” when, for instance, we wake up in the morning. This innate sense of self is a deeply rooted, instinctual habit. It thus involves more than just imputed identity; it is a deeper experiential orientation of distorted subjectivity. Although analysis into the nature of the self paves the way for it to be overcome, it cannot fall away by analysis alone. Rather, it has to be relinquished through cultivating the path of meditation. According to Mipam, there are no innate aspects of the afflictive obscurations left on the eighth ground. However, the afflictive emotions are only one of two types of obscurations, the other being cognitive obscurations.

Cognitive obscurations are nothing less than conceptuality: the threefold conceptualization of agent, object, and action. Conceptuality is tied in to apprehending a self of phenomena, which includes mistaking phenomena as real, objectifying phenomena, and simply perceiving dualistically. Such conceptualization serves to obstruct omniscience. Based on the Great Vehicle, these cognitive obscurations can be completely relinquished; thereby, the result of the Great Vehicle path culminates in not merely escaping samsara, as in the Lesser Vehicle, but in becoming an omniscient buddha. According to Mipam, up to the seventh ground, the realization (of the twofold selflessness) and abandonment (of the twofold obscurations) are the same in the Great and Lesser Vehicles.

As with the Great Vehicle, he maintains that accomplishing the path of the Lesser Vehicle entails the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, to see that phenomena are empty. Those who accomplish the Lesser Vehicle path also realize the selflessness of phenomena, because their realization of emptiness with respect to a person is one instance of realizing the emptiness of phenomena. The final realization of the Lesser Vehicle path, however, is incomplete. Mipam compares it to taking a small gulp of the water of the ocean: we can say that those who realize emptiness in the Lesser Vehicle have drunk the water of the ocean, just not all of it.150 The final realization of the bodhisattva’s path in the Great Vehicle, however, is the full realization of emptiness, like drinking the entire ocean.

- Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings"

https://www.amazon.com/Self-Help-Your-Nerves-overcoming-stress-ebook/dp/B06Y5V8LNB/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.a7FuP960Gzkw9rUHVNgfJcTdTnfqvs33getfo74y-MbZgquxsRhgIRao27fhyLChP9GijwIPoe_PDtWXcNv39WMMEG-D4mISA8M53eBl7X7G_AoDDhGjSKU5s5-zrSApyo7ciilfSZJK6KNqmgoaLf-QYtCo6d3fwtOYrAf-60u3IF7smdGpHnyB4S6wheca-D4BMaIci3uiG--5Tq4NLcvEKFj-twEtAh9w-NiwmyM.PenB5buQCG9KaDWj93v3f0bteynSVfrlzKDoOF0rlyw&dib_tag=se&keywords=Self+Help+for+Your+Nerves+%3A+Learn+to+Relax+and+Enjoy+Life+Again+by+Overcoming+Stress+and+Fear&qid=1712853550&s=books&sr=1-1

There is a book Yin Ling shared that she found to be genuinely helpful for those suffering anxiety. Although I do not have anxiety, I trust this book will be beneficial for those who suffer from anxiety (which is very common in this day and age), and even for those who do not currently suffer from anxiety.

Based on what I've seen from the book, even though it does not teach anatta as a realization, this book leads to the energetic signature of the non-doership aspect of anatta through the practices, which is important and key for solving anxiety as John Tan said before. 

A good book.

Yin ling added, “the only downside is it is written in 1960s when SSRI - the med for depression has just been approved .. so there is no section for encouraging ppl to eat med. if I rewrite this book, I will add this section and make it 30% of the book haha”

John tan also said to someone,

“Try to learn the art of effortlessness to allow arising conditions do the work.

Then when u take the antidepressant even without sleeping tablets, u will sleep within seconds or few minutes.”

Also, this practice can be helpful and important, should be done everyday, even if you start with just 15~20 minutes a day it can be good and beneficial:

Excerpt from “Open Mind, Open Heart” by Tsoknyi Rinpoche:

“Vase Breathing

One of the methods that helped this woman and countless others cope with emotions is a practice that helps us draw lung back to its center, or “home.” For this, we use a special breathing technique as a tool, because breath is a physical correlation to the subtle wind energy of lung.

This technique is called vase breathing, and it involves breathing even more deeply than the type of deep diaphragmatic breathing often taught in many yoga and other types of classes with which people may be familiar.

The technique itself is rather simple. First, exhale slowly and completely, collapsing the abdominal muscles as close to the spine as possible. As you slowly breathe in, imagine that you’re drawing your breath down to an area about four finger widths below your navel, just above your pubic bone. This area is shaped a bit like a vase, which is why the technique is called vase breathing. Of course, you’re not really drawing your breath down to that region, but by turning your attention there, you will find yourself inhaling a bit more deeply than usual and will experience a bit more of an expansion in the vase region.

As you continue to draw your breath in and your attention down, your lung will gradually begin to travel down there and begin to rest there. Hold your breath down in the vase region just for a few seconds - don’t wait until the need to exhale becomes urgent - then slowly breathe out again.

Just breathe slowly this way three or four times, exhaling completely and inhaling down into the vase area. After the third or fourth inhalation, try holding a little bit of your breath - maybe 10 percent - in the vase area at the end of the exhalation, focusing very lightly and gently on maintaining a bit of lung in its home place.

Try it now.

Exhale completely and then breathe slowly and gently down to the vase area three or four times, and on the last exhalation, hold a little bit of breath in the vase area. Keep this up for about ten minutes.

How did that feel?

Maybe it was a little uncomfortable. Some people have said that directing their breath in this way is difficult. Others have said that doing so gave them a sense of calmness and centeredness they’d never felt before.

Vase breathing, if practiced ten or even twenty minutes every day, can become a direct means of developing awareness of our feelings and learning how to work with them even while we’re engaged in our daily activities. When our lung is centered in its home place, our bodies, or feelings, and our thoughts gradually find a healthy balance. The horse and rider work together in a very loose and easy way, neither trying to seize control or drive the other crazy. In the process, we find that subtle body patterns associated with fear, pain, anxiety, anger, restlessness, and so on gradually loosen up, that there’s a little bit of space between the mind and the feelings.

Ultimately the goal is to be able to maintain that small bit of breath in the vase area throughout the day, during all our activities - walking, talking, eating, drinking, driving. For some people, this ability becomes automatic after only a short while of practice. For others, it may require a bit more time.

I have to admit that, even after years of practicing, I still find that I sometimes lose my connection to my home base, especially when meeting with people who are very speedy. I’m a bit of a speedy person myself, and meeting other speedy people acts as a kind of subtle body stimulus. I get caught up in their restless and displaced energy and consequently become a bit restless, nervous, and sometimes even anxious. So I take what I call a reminder breath: exhaling completely, breathing down into the vase area, and then exhaling again leaving a little bit of breath in the lung’s home.”

 John Tan:

明心还需见空性，明空性也需证妙心。

Soh’s translation:

"After apperceiving the (radiant/luminous) mind, one still needs to see the nature of emptiness; even understanding the nature of emptiness, one also needs to realize to the marvelous heart (Mind)."

----

Other relevant quotes:

“Should be recognition of radiance clarity is implied and naturally realized.

The recognition should be directly into realizing appearances as empty clarity therefore both 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) as both are merely conventionally designated and dependently arise.

As 五祖 (ChatGPT translate: the Fifth Patriarch) told 慧能 (ChatGPT translate: Huineng), 不识本心 学法无益 (ChatGPT translate: Not knowing the original mind, learning the Dharma is of no benefit). Like 10 ox herding pictures, 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) comes at a later phase.”

“Even when clarity is authenticated, still one got to differentiate between no-mind and anatta. Then "I" as reified construct and extend to phenomena to realized primodial purity of one's mind.”

—-

John Tan's reply on something Malcolm wrote in 2020:

“This is like what I tell you and essentially emphasizing 明心非见性. 先明心, 后见性. (Soh: Apprehending Mind is not seeing [its] Nature. First apprehend Mind, later realise [its] Nature).

First is directly authenticating mind/consciousness 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind). There is the direct path like zen sudden enlightenment of one's original mind or mahamudra or dzogchen direct introduction of rigpa or even self enquiry of advaita -- the direct, immediate, perception of "consciousness" without intermediaries. They are the same.

However that is not realization of emptiness. Realization of emptiness is 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature). Imo there is direct path to 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind) but I have not seen any direct path to 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature) yet. If you go through the depth and nuances of our mental constructs, you will understand how deep and subtle the blind spots are.

Therefore emptiness or 空性 (Soh: Empty Nature) is the main difference between buddhism and other religions. Although anatta is the direct experiential taste of emptiness, there is still a difference between buddhist's anatta and selflessness of other religions -- whether it is anatta by experiential taste of the dissolution of self alone or the experiential taste is triggered by wisdom of emptiness.

The former focused on selflessness and whole path of practice is all about doing away with self whereas the latter is about living in the wisdom of emptiness and applying that insight and wisdom of emptiness to all phenomena.

As for emptiness there is the fine line of seeing through inherentness of Tsongkhapa and there is the emptiness free from extremes by Gorampa. Both are equally profound so do not talk nonsense and engaged in profane speech as in terms of result, ultimately they are the same (imo).”

Dalai Lama - "Nature - there are many different levels. Conventional level, one nature. There are also, you see, different levels. Then, ultimate level, ultimate reality... so simply realise the Clarity of the Mind, that is the conventional level. That is common with Hindus, like that. So we have to know these different levels...." 

-- See more at Recognizing Rigpa vs Realizing Emptiness, and the Different Modalities of Rigpa 

-----

[20/3/24, 11:51:11 PM] John Tan: Currently u r just practicing natural opening of radiance right?

[20/3/24, 11:56:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: mostly yes

[20/3/24, 11:58:40 PM] John Tan: Yes and u believe and have great confidence that focusing on the purity and undeserving openning of one's radiance led to liberation correct?

[20/3/24, 11:58:52 PM] John Tan: Unreserved

[20/3/24, 11:59:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: yes but i think that is also contingent on how clear is one's insight into emptiness

[20/3/24, 11:59:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: for example anatta is also one type of wisdom into emptiness.. the initial one

[21/3/24, 12:00:03 AM] Soh Wei Yu: without that its not even possible to openly taste radiance as appearance for example

[21/3/24, 12:01:03 AM] John Tan: Yes what else?

[21/3/24, 12:03:34 AM] Soh Wei Yu: emptiness must extend to all self and phenomena as reified, mere names and imputations, non-arisen... and must lead to presence as free from extremes, illusory in taste, like space, a kind of insubstantial presence-absence rather than solid and real. beyond that theres still subtler cognitive obscurations

[21/3/24, 12:08:07 AM] John Tan: In one sense yes but the purpose is see without confusion what exactly are conventional in our thoughts moments and we will understand clearly all our discussions above.  Especially after anatta.

[21/3/24, 12:08:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:11:21 AM] John Tan: Now I ask u, is ur body more important than empty radiance?

[21/3/24, 12:20:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm.. they are inseparable.. thats why yoga etc are important

[21/3/24, 12:22:03 AM] John Tan: Normal exercises will do to balance ur energy before one is in a natural state of effortless and unreserved openning.

[21/3/24, 12:23:15 AM] John Tan: Exotic poses can harm ur body if not carefully practice esp without proper guidiance

[21/3/24, 12:23:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:24:49 AM] Soh Wei Yu: my dad told me when you demonstrated some poses or asanas, it seemed quite extreme and maybe harmful lol.. i told him its because you practice for many many years and are flexible and you also warned about dangers of extreme yoga before

[21/3/24, 12:25:10 AM] John Tan: Yeah

[21/3/24, 12:26:12 AM] John Tan: Not suitable for ppl without guidance. Not advisable for ppl.  Just normal exercises will do.

[21/3/24, 12:26:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: i see..

[21/3/24, 12:26:47 AM] John Tan: I dun advice ppl to practice that way.

[21/3/24, 12:26:57 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:27:38 AM] John Tan: But for u, u need to discipline to do some exercises to balance over focus of radiance.

[21/3/24, 12:27:54 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ic..

[21/3/24, 12:41:27 AM] John Tan: Also u got to have clear understanding of what if one only focus on emptiness of conventional yet without any taste of radiance.

[21/3/24, 12:57:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: then its just a cessation of concepts and reification on a mental level only right

[21/3/24, 1:02:26 AM] John Tan: Not exactly, cessation of concepts and reification  should lead to direct taste of radiance.

[21/3/24, 1:03:53 AM] John Tan: More like non-attachment due to seeing through, what will experience be like?  Go sleep.

[21/3/24, 2:07:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm.. more like a mental release i think. But it will still be inferential understanding of emptiness rather than a sort of realising of our nature isnt it

[21/3/24, 2:08:02 PM] Soh Wei Yu: https://youtu.be/f8y0QKXZGHs?si=o26rUnamdVvBwCgC

[21/3/24, 2:08:20 PM] Soh Wei Yu: First thirty minutes talk about anatta, emptiness, hinayana vs mahayana vs brahman

...

[21/3/24, 9:57:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=oXi_WOnOLmE

[22/3/24, 12:57:56 AM] Soh Wei Yu: im going to Taiwan tmr lol

[22/3/24, 12:57:56 AM] Soh Wei Yu: sat and sunday will be at his monastery for short retreat

[22/3/24, 8:04:55 AM] John Tan: 👍

[22/3/24, 8:09:47 AM] John Tan: 👍

[22/3/24, 8:30:46 AM] John Tan: Yes quite good.

....

[22/3/24, 8:36:38 AM] John Tan: This is like the question I asked u yesterday, does realizing emptiness of conventional lead to authentication of one's radiance?

[22/3/24, 8:51:39 AM] Soh Wei Yu: So in his case his is from realizing emptiness of the conventional leading to authentication of radiance?

[22/3/24, 8:52:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I would say.. If one can truly see through the conventional subject action object structure, it will lead to authenticating radiance as appearance

[22/3/24, 8:56:12 AM] John Tan: Not exactly.  Rather from realizing emptiness of conventional into spontaneous perfection and self liberation.

[22/3/24, 8:58:19 AM] John Tan: That is what I said yesterday, it is not possible to see through "reification" and not recognize appearances as one's radiance.

But one can keep practicing penetrating emptiness of the conventional and not authenticate radiance.  During this intermediate phase, what is it like is my question to u yesterday.

‎[22/3/24, 8:59:22 AM] John Tan: ‎image omitted

[22/3/24, 8:59:25 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. hmm like first stanza of anatta without going into second?

[22/3/24, 9:01:04 AM] John Tan: Something like that.  So u need to know the emptiness 法门 (Soh: the dharma door of emptiness), radiance 法门 (Soh: the dharma door of radiance) and then 大圆满 (Soh: great perfection/spontaneous perfection).

[22/3/24, 9:03:52 AM] John Tan: Actually no matter which path when practice with the right understanding can lead to self liberation if we have the right understanding and view from start.

However during the journey, practitioners need more season practitioners to point out to them what they lack.

[22/3/24, 9:04:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[22/3/24, 9:05:09 AM] John Tan: That is y u need to know clearly, the intermediate phase if without authentication of radiance or radiance without understanding emptiness of phenomena.

...

[22/3/24, 9:12:22 AM] John Tan: Yes because u start from I M to the recognition of appearances as radiance clarity but lack direct insight of how emptiness of conventional can equally lead to that.  

That is y I m now trying to lead u to see that from all those questionings.

[22/3/24, 9:14:20 AM] John Tan: It is not that "emptiness" alone cannot lead to authentication of radiance, it will but only at the mature phase.

[22/3/24, 9:15:06 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[22/3/24, 9:15:58 AM] John Tan: However for those that can see and understand it and skewed towards 顽空 then pointing radiance is necessary.

[22/3/24, 9:17:06 AM] John Tan: Actually the 7 phases of insights r quite complete already, just need to refine proper wordings and explanations.

...

John Tan:

“Should be recognition of radiance clarity is implied and naturally realized.

The recognition should be directly into realizing appearances as empty clarity therefore both 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) as both are merely conventionally designated and dependently arise.

As 五祖 (ChatGPT translate: the Fifth Patriarch) told 慧能 (ChatGPT translate: Huineng), 不识本心 学法无益 (ChatGPT translate: Not knowing the original mind, learning the Dharma is of no benefit). Like 10 ox herding pictures, 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) comes at a later phase.

Even when clarity is authenticated, still one got to differentiate between no-mind and anatta. Then "I" as reified construct and extend to phenomena to realized primodial purity of one's mind.”

"This.  He already clearly implied radiance in emptiness."

As John Tan said before,

“When we authenticate radiance clarity directly, we have a first hand experiential taste of what is called the "ultimate free from all conceptual elaborations" but mind is not "free from conceptual elaborations".”

Wrote some time back:

Seeing selfness or cognizance as a subject and phenomena as objects is the fundamental elaboration that prevents the taste of appearances as radiance clarity.. then even after anatta, there are still the subtle cognitive obscurations that reified phenomena, arising and ceasing, substantial cause and effect, inherent production and so on.

So elaboration is not just coarse thinking like labelling but to me is like a veil of reification projecting and distorting radiant appearances and its nature.

Another way to put it is that the fundamental conceptual elaboration that obscures reality/suchness is to reify self and phenomena in terms of the extremes of existence and non existence through not apprehending the nature of mind/appearance.

….

If you mean just authenticate radiance clarity like I AM, then it’s just nonconceptual taste and realisation of presence.

That moment is nondual and nonconceptual and unfabricated but it doesnt mean the view of inherency is seen through. Since fundamental ignorance is untouched the radiance will continue to be distorted into a subject and object.

.....

"The process of eradicating avidyā (ignorance) is conceived… not as a mere stopping of thought, but as the active realization of the opposite of what ignorance misconceives. Avidyā is not a mere absence of knowledge, but a specific misconception, and it must be removed by realization of its opposite. In this vein, Tsongkhapa says that one cannot get rid of the misconception of 'inherent existence' merely by stopping conceptuality any more than one can get rid of the idea that there is a demon in a darkened cave merely by trying not to think about it. Just as one must hold a lamp and see that there is no demon there, so the illumination of wisdom is needed to clear away the darkness of ignorance." - Napper, Elizabeth, 2003, p. 103"

It is important however to note that Gelug and non Gelug authors may have different definitions of conceptualities, as John Tan pointed out years ago: “Not exactly, both have some very profound points.  Mipham "conceptualities" is not only referring to symbolic layering but also self-view which is more crucial.  Mipham made it very clear and said the gelug mistake "conceptualities" as just symbolic and mental overlay, which is not what he is referring then he laid down 3 types of conceptualities.  Same for dharmakirti also...there is the gross definition and the more refine definitions.”

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/25196752283272864/?__cft__[0]=AZXBflTLeDk0GWy2yxDMHursCLy0ZFbO88YnPgAl9NeT24-xhWM8yMQKEHih6R58JBYoinw1dOBkoCaT12Jj5CqsRaaR5hvWsy5_HdLViRaQMqfswivm6e-wmTpE2Ef4dGqFkDvDGAXv_SoX8ELumhC2jPDcQ2WmGVQWuNsDKxS3P6tnUc5rpdODJrE9nhmfhKo&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R]-R

I agree that we should not be judgmental about someone’s wisdom on the basis of whether he or she smokes. Heck, even drinking alcohol — Alan Watts was a known alcoholic but John Tan and I find him to be quite deep in insights and has a lot to share. Unlike many redditor Buddhists, we do not think Alan Watts should be judged unfairly from the basis of a few behaviors. Having said that, John Tan stopped his infrequent/occasional drinking of alcohol for business entertainment many years ago after he found that it has detrimental effects on his qi/wind. 

However. Regarding views about engaging in sense pleasures without desire and attachment, I very much doubt that it is possible, as the Buddha states, "“Bhikkhus, that one can engage in sensual pleasures without sensual desires, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire—that is impossible." (Alagaddūpama Sutta) 

Vajrayana may say use sense pleasure as part of the path and method. That is fine to me but not to be equated with the goal, the elimination of the twin obscurations.

I do not see how without sensual desire even at the anagami level, one can continue to engage in sense pleasures. This is why in the suttas none of the anagamis and arahats engage in sense pleasures including lay anagamis, only sotapannas and sakadagami do. I can cite many passages on this one. This has nothing to do with conduct and vows but about the afflictions driving behaviours. If there is no craving or inclination towards sense pleasures, there can be no impetus to engage in them. Just like if there is no craving for heroin you just won’t use it, unless you are using prescribed opiates for extreme pain. An anagami or arahant may still need to taper off opiate medication gradually when he or she recovers due to physiological reasons of bodily acclimatization (you might have bad withdrawal symptoms otherwise), but there won’t be the slightest clinging, craving or reminiscence for the state of opiates, nor will there be “relapse” as there can be no craving at all. 

Even sex — there is no impetus to do that for someone free from kleshas, it is not my judgement or conjecture but this is just how it is, even in the scriptures it is abundantly clear. Sex for example, by itself is not something really bad, but it just falls off by itself at some point, and arahants are known as completely dispassionate, with no desire whatsoever for life nor death. But that is far along the path, when one is almost fully liberated and awakened. I don’t know of any that has reached that state now, although the last person to attain Buddhahood in recent times is Thrangu Rinpoche (https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/11/thrangu-rinpoche-attained-buddhahood.html). Unlike cigarettes and tobacco which is a known cancer-causing radioactive carcinogen (although that may not be known as fact in older times), there is no need to avoid or repress sex. I just told someone yesterday due to a question he asked, “Unless you choose the life of monastic, or have achieved anagami stage, i do not advise people to take up celibate path. It is ok to find a partner and get married. John tan has a wife and two kids.”

I have also read that Nisargadatta visited a prostitute, I think Joan Tollifson and many others said it, including someone else who said “According to Ramesh Balsekar, Nisargaddata used to visit a local prostitute. He was not ashamed or concerned with enjoying sex.” That is fine by my books in the sense that it does not make me have less respect for him, just like Alan Watts’ liking for alcohol, tobacco and women does not make me lose any respect for him and his wisdom. I do not think anybody should be judgmental or lose confidence in their writings and teachings or stop looking deeply into these teachings just because of these points. Of course it is not to say that we are saying smoking is fine. We can accept that smoking is unhealthy and avoid it for our own sake and still not get judgy about those who smoke. Also, there are stories of mahasiddhas who find prostitutes, drink alcohol and so on. But as Acarya Malcolm said, mahasiddhas are just those who have attained at least the first bhumi. (They are not all Buddhas.) 

Sexual desire for example is only eliminated in higher bhumis as krodha/kyle dixon points out (and similarly for all other sensual desires) before, “Āryabodhisattvas on the higher bhūmis overcome sexual interests. Below that you will still experience sexual urges and attraction.”

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Nafis shared a good article:

“Roshi, You Are Drunk”

When a student confronts his famed teacher, Steve Silberman learns the meaning of “intimate practice.” In that moment, he becomes a Buddhist.

https://www.lionsroar.com/roshi-you-are-drunk/