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Ng Xin Zhao shared a link.
Any comments on this? I am still investigating if Non-duality can be used as a tool for Buddhist enlightenment.
88 Comments
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
I wrote a critique on this article.
Critique on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Article "Dhamma and Non-duality"

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Critique on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Article "Dhamma and Non-duality"
Myriad Objects
Geoff discussed this exact paper here.
He explains that Bhikkhu Bodhi is mischaracterizing and misunderstanding Mahayana views
He ties it into Ven. Nyanananda as well, and shows connections to the suttas
I recommend reading & sharing this

DHAMMAWHEEL.COM
Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Soh Wei Yu Finally finish reading wow.
The following links are expired/gone. Impermanence.
Thanks! Very good article. I kinda get the 7 stage's usefulness now.
DHARMACONNECTIONGROUP.BLOGSPOT.COM
Dharma Connection: Nirvana In The Different Schools Of Buddhism
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Also on a completely different topic.. i also wrote a critique on ven thanissaro’s explanation of anatta which is misleading:
Kyle
would know as he is always refuting people on reddit holding the
confused views of ven thanissaro. I am glad that some other theravadin
venerables refuted those views.
Yin Ling
Admin
I tried to read but very convoluted and too academic for me as practitioner , or maybe I’m not focusing.
Non duality imo is a safe way to realize anatta. It will bring to a powerful and clear realization.
And
when anatta (buddhism non dual) is realized, non dual is undeniable.
Like how the sun rise from the east , one can’t deny it, it’s super
super clear.
Anatta is implicitly non dual. There’s no duality in here as there’s no perceiver.
Most
ppl who want to jump right into anatta without understanding non dual
end up not properly realize anatta but put up a front of “fake no self” ,
denying the core of self in this body, and become a very dissociated
and nihilistic practitioner .
They tend to talk abotj “no person doing anything, making judgments, no feelings, no personality etc” very nihilistic
It is all over the web and Facebook.
This is not realization. Only full of intellectualisation.
The Bahiya sutta is non dual. That was how Bahiya was taught to practise.
In the seen only the seen.
In the heard only the heard.
Ever always so, ever always non-dual.
This kind of realisation is alive, vivid, beautiful, blissful, rich, and intimate.
You melt into the universe, you become the universe.
It’s your own true face.
Zen satori is this.
How to doubt?
SUTTACENTRAL.NET
suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway
Myriad Objects
Soh Wei Yu This is from an old translator from Pali to english from the 1950s, Bhikkhu Ñānamoli
Even
he seems to have considered contact (phassa) to be connected to a
subject-object split in experience resulting from ignorance
(if I’m reading this right)

DHAMMATALKS.ORG
AN 4:24 Kāḷaka Sutta | At Kāḷaka’s Park
Myriad Objects
Soh Wei Yu Here’s a note from Ven. Ñānavīra.
He was controversial, but he too seems to relate the subject-object split to ignorance and contact (phassa)
Myriad Objects
more from the same Bhikkhu
Myriad Objects
one more
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu yes all major suttas are non dual
Satipathanna especially.
Experience the body in the body.
Experience feeling in the feeling.
I feel getting some insight is foremost. Even I Am. It creates confidence and faith
Too much intellectualisation just waste so much time
Yin Ling
Admin
At later stage it’s not even just the sensation being non dual( no perceiver)
It’s
the whole scenery with all the sensations arising in one flow. No
duality no break no gap. No past or present. Just one whole flow. Can’t
even say it’s one. Just this.
So clear and powerful.
No doubt.
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
This
is exactly how doubt can arise. The usage of your true face can be read
as imposing a true self which is clung to. I know you don't mean this,
but from non-dual perspective, it's easy to misinterpret it like that.
Yin Ling
Admin
The
doubt will be gone when one recognise that true face coz the self is
gone. It is not intellectual but a deep realisation after lots of lots
cycle of refinement and practise
Yin Ling
Admin
I
agree there can still be grasping as emptiness is a separate insight.
But grasping to the personal self as identity is gone at satori
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Yin Ling
Sorry, I am still a bit sensitive to the terminology true face. If it's
identical with suchness, emptiness, etc, I am more ok with those
terminologies. Although likely I am still misconstruing those terms as
well.
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Yin Ling you were talking about awareness is not right some time ago. Is that awareness non-dual?
Cause
some of the non-dual books I am reading now sort of uses the notion of
dissolving the self into the space of awareness which has no boundaries.
Awareness they use here is consciousness I think.
Yin Ling
Admin
Ng Xin Zhao it’s a terminology in zen.
Every
tradition have their own terminology and it gets quite confusing at one
point. Eventually we ourselves willl have to decide how we want to use
it coz certain termilogg create imprints in our mind. It is good if you
feel that it doesn’t suit you, don’t use the word true face .
Yin Ling
Admin
Even
mind, consciousness, true face
Have similar effect
Suchness is very hard to use when one haven’t seen “true face” because what is suchness to you?
Yin Ling
Admin
I wrote about awareness and my opinion on awareness in the post I pinned on my page.
It is not apart from phenomenas
Phenomenas nature is self-aware and empty of essence
You can even say there is no awareness
No material
No sensation
Just suchness
But this nature is not sthg we have ever come across in our usual experience
So it’s hard to teach suchness straight away. It will even mislead and cause wrong understanding
So need to step by step
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Yin Ling I see suchness now as: Just like that lo.
Experiences
are just experiences. Anything we add onto it is delusional. Notions
like beings, time, space. The thinking mind can still function on its
own helping in the survival of this body and mind without such delusion.
It's
something to be experienced, not forced, something to be realized, not
gamified by using ego. Not to think oneself towards it.
I welcome corrections.
Yin Ling
Admin
This is not authoritative
To me
suchness is the nature of reality When anatta, dependent arising and emptiness is clearly understood and realized
All appearances becomes one own empty clarity, and nothing apart.
All
appearances manifest yet not arising , not truly out there, they only
come forth according to conditions. Yet conditions and manifestation are
not cause and effect.. just dependent
All
is like that. There is no self playing any controller or doer role.
There cannot be one, as self causes thing to not function.
I am sure I have cognitive obscurations that I haven’t see through. But for now suchness to me is this.
It’s a simple word which takes so much work to truly intuit and understand and I am still working hard at it
Nixon Na
This
article is old but gold. Bhikkhu Bodhi pointed out the absence of
non-duality in the original teachings. In fact, this has already been
established by scholars to be a concept of later development.
For
what it’s worth, if non-duality, anatta, or any other concepts lessen
your tanha (craving), clinging, greed, hatred and delusion towards the 5
aggregates, then by Dhamma’s standards, it is a useful tool.
If
one becomes more conceited, delusionally proud or more attached to
pleasant states or awakened statuses, then this ironically is fool’s
gold.
The
true measure of this path, as Bhikkhu Bodhi said, is ultimately how
much clinging and defilements we have rather than how much “no-self” or
“no-one-there-anatta” one has perceived.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Geoff
wrote a good critique on the misunderstanding of Bhikkhu Bodhi on
Mahayana teachings. It is good to read thoroughly without a biased mind.
Geoff discussed this exact paper here.
He explains that Bhikkhu Bodhi is mischaracterizing and misunderstanding Mahayana views
He ties it into Ven. Nyanananda as well, and shows connections to the suttas
I recommend reading & sharing this”
Also,
Pali canon and Theravada does not have a monopoly on lessening and
extinguishing clinging and defilements. That is taught in Mahayana and
Vajrayana too.
Lastly, in Pali canon, you cannot be liberated without realizing the emptiness of self. This is basic Buddhism.

DHAMMAWHEEL.COM
Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Look at the world and see its emptiness Mogharāja, always mindful, eliminating the view of self, one goes beyond death.
One who views the world this way is not seen by the king of death.
— Sutta Nipāta 5.15, Mogharājamāṇavapucchā
Nixon Na
Soh Wei Yu Don’t confuse “non-duality” with “emptiness” and “the view of self”.
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Nixon Na
you should read the article he responded. It addressed the non-duality
issue. Non-dual is not non-duality. Non dual is used by Buddhism. It's
epistemic. Non duality as you used it above is ontological, that's not
the Buddhist view.
Still reading it, super duper long! And good, for the detailed clarifications.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Yes
the ontic nondualism of vedanta (one without a second of atman-brahman)
is rejected through Buddha’s epistemic non-duality which rejects the
extremes of existence and non-existence, being and non-being
Sim Pern Chong
Admin
I
have a different experience. Non-duality (as in no subject-object) is
the 'base' experience that matured into no-self. The initial non-dual is
rather 'solid'.. as it matures no-self is realised. To me, no-self is
the matured experience/expression of proper non-duality.
However, non-duality is also often misconstrued as no right or wrong..
Yin Ling
Admin
Sim Pern Chong it was similar for me.
Emptiness was another separate insight after no-self. Completely different experience.
Sim Pern Chong
Admin
Yin Ling Yup.. emptiness is also a distinctively different experience to me too. Hard to describe 

Nixon Na
Sim Pern Chong Yin Ling That’s right, every step and every insight in the right direction of weakening clinging.
The
idea is that upon close investigation, there is nothing worth to be
taken as a self and not worth clinging onto. Not even this pleasant
peaceful mind. But that said, life is dukkha, we still need the support
of blissful states until we have reached the final step.
William Lim
So
if i understand correctly, you can't have Anatta insight without
non-dual experience, but you can have non-dual experience without
realising Anatta yah?
So, is non-dual realization a prerequisite to Anatta realization?
Sim Pern Chong
Admin
Nixon Na
'i am' at this experience as if i have never ever existed (as a
separate thing).. it is not as if there was a person that realised 'no
self' and there is no self there after. It is as if 'nothing has ever
existed as a fixed 'thing'. .. nothing ever existed in the way that they
appears... not accurate.. but something like that.
But, the processes still rolls on.
Yin Ling
Admin
Actually
I am not sure. For me i went through non dual then anatta. It is
different for me because my senses didn’t all turn non dual at once. It
was one by one.
But
with one non-dual sense as reference I know how another sense gate is
still dual. I could understand the insight, I just haven’t have the
realisation
When all is non dual it still feels contrived until
I relax and let all things be always so and stop merging awareness and phenomena
Then I could understand nature of phenomena - empty and vivid.
To me each step in ATR is important and I can’t imagine how to skip
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Yes.
You can have nondual experience without the anatta insight. You can
also fall into substantialist nondual phase where nondual is realised
(not just an experience) but not yet overcome inherent view of
self-nature. Whether you go through those phases before anatta is highly
subjective and depends on the thoroughness of your insight. Some people
like Bahiya just attained liberation all at once. Most people go
through a process of deepening insight and practice.
Yin Ling
Admin
Yeah agree with sim pern chong
It becomes at one point “self” is not relevant anymore.
It’s not like you can choose to cling or not cling to self. Or think whether it is worth it or not.
It’s just is no self .
It is a different space.
You can’t even see self in others at one point.
The projection gradually diminishes naturally
Non dual is also very blissful 

Nixon Na
William Lim
Anatta as in the original teachings of the Buddha, is a realisation
after one has thoroughly investigated the 5 aggregates and finds them to
be inconsistent and dissatisfactory. So even our own 5 aggregates are
anicca and dukkha, these are truly not fit to be called our
self/soul/essence and not worth to be clung onto. This is applicable to
everything in life.
There
is no need to bring the concept of non-duality. What we need instead is
morality (sila), so that we can have guilt-free deep stillness
(samadhi). In there, the 5 hindrances are suppressed temporarily - this
enables us to sharpen our lens and see things as they truly are. That is
where you will properly see anatta.
Nixon Na
Yin Ling Very nice, though much work remains to be done.
Throughout
the course of the day, note how many times we have irritation, boredom,
food cravings, no matter how mild. These are indicators of how much
subtle clinging to sensual pleasures (kama-tanha) are still latent in
us. How about feelings of our loved ones dying, or our own mortality?
This is the craving to want to exist (bhava-tanha).
To be truly awakened, these latent tendencies must cease.
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Yin Ling I am not sure if my sharing would be helpful. Maybe I am too cold.
My grandparents on father side died recently. I didn't felt much sadness if at all.
1. They lived to be very old, 80+, so no sadness from cutting short of life.
2.
I stayed in Singapore for 8 years, so during the time I am away from
friends, family etc, I sort of regard them as maybe I wouldn't see them
again and functionally, since I am not being with them all the time, and
not financially dependent on them, their death is like this current
absence and not communicating. My early exposure to Buddhism too had
made me be wary of forming attachments to anyone. Not that I cannot form
close friends when the conditions arises, but I wouldn't allow
attachments to form. Well, at least for friendship.
3.
What is the difference of friends/family being alive and dead? Alive
means they can talk back to you. What's that in terms of experiences? Do
they talk to us all the time? No most of the time, we are not in
communication with anyone. (except for the inner dialogue). So what does
death mean? No more ability for people to respond to me. Functionally,
whenever people are not talking to me, not appearing in front of me,
they are as if dead. Death is just that no more future possibility of
that happening ever again and it happens to everyone. Even me. Well,
except in dreams. Sometimes, I still forgot that my grandparents died in
my dreams, so I didn't find it sad or strange to interact with them in
dreams. Or did I felt sad upon waking up and remembering.
Basically, with attachments comes sadness, without attachments comes no sadness.
Yin Ling
Admin
Haha yeah my personality does not parallel w yours as I’m extremely empathetic and warm
I feel everything fully Lol
I feel into arts musics poetry nature etc etc and I love it lol
So I don’t know. I thjnk emptiness insight need to arise more powerfully
And thanks for your input! Appreciate!
Nixon Na
Sim Pern Chong
Noting is a form of Samma-sati (Right mindfulness). In short, Sati has 2
parts - (1) Being aware of the current state of mind; (2) Remembering
the Buddha’s instructions on what to do next.
We
first need to sharpen the ability to note, to be aware. But merely
noting is insufficient, sati has to be supported by Right Effort
(Samma-vayama). This means the 4 right effort: (1) Remove
unwholesomeness in the mind, (2) Bring up wholesomeness, (3) Prevent
unwholesomeness from arising, (4) Multiply wholesomeness.
When
you consistently keep the mind in a good state, when meditation comes,
the mind easily slips into samadhi. There is where the deep seeing
happens.
For our minds to truly switch, we need the complete 8 fold path supported at the foundation by Right View, then
Right Aim/Intention
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Stillness
From Right Stillness you will get Right Knowledge and Right Liberation.
My
apologies for the long post. If you would like a more detailed
explanation, I’ll have to refer you to Sylvia Bay’s Dhamma course at Buddhist Fellowship
Nixon Na
Yin Ling
In times of grief and crisis, anything blissful is a blessing. I have
the support of good teachers and wise kalyanamitta (good dhamma
friends). Also, knowing that the deceased has had a good happy wholesome
life made it easier.
To
surf the waves of dukkha, we need to equip ourselves with many tools -
be it resting in “non-self”, metta, compassion, anapanasati (breath
meditation), non-contact etc. Whatever is wholesome. But we need to be
aware these are merely tools, a means to an end. We must be clear of the
end goal - the remainderless cessation of this craving energy (tanha),
so that there will not be a next becoming (rebirth). This is the goal of
the arahant.
Sim Pern Chong
Admin
Nixon Na Thanks for the reply.
My experience differs... but none of us are claiming to be truly and fully awakened 

For
me, the noting cannot weaken clinging substantially. What weakens
clinging is insight into the nature of reality and the recognition of
suffering. In fact, the more suffering ones experiences after no-self
insight, the deeper the dispassion.
Noting or mindfulness was especially useful for allowing the glimpse into no-self.
However,
after the initial no-self insight and especially after sometimes, the
noting change flavour. This is because the no-self insight is actually a
recognition of a large chunk of clinging.. arising from wanting..
leading to the false impression of a subject-object split. This is why,
to me, non-duality (aka no subject-object) is a maturation of no-self.
because the dichotomy of a self and appearance outside it arises from
the 'forward' clinging' into an outside 'environment'... where there is
only 'processes'.
After
the no-self, there can also be an experience of auto-release from
clinging. There is no self or noting required for the release of
clinging. during those period.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Well said.
Also noting as in labeling wasn’t taught by Buddha
I would consider it a form of skillful means by contemporary masters. Same as counting breath.
That
is different from direct mode of satipatthana. So as many teachers of
noting method say, at later stage you must drop noting
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu yeah I noted for 18 months for 5-6 hours a day 

until my mind cannot stop noting until now still have that residual ability 








My teacher asked me to stop doing it but the mind can’t stop. Only when it gradually slows that I can access direct mode
Nixon Na
Sim Pern Chong
Sounds good. Just don’t be blindsided by the deep hidden tendencies.
These can only be uprooted by consistently guarding the senses and the
mind, deep samadhi and by walking the complete 8-fold path.
As
for concepts like non-duality, or triple-duality or whatnot, use them
as tools. Don’t be fooled into attainments of awakening. Keep grounded
and humbly walk the path.
Yin Ling
Admin
Nixon Na
note every sensation that arise. Including thoughts including mind
states or even anything I can’t say I just give it a random name
At
the very end I don’t even need to note. The universe note itself. It
can sense 20-30 sensations at half a second or one mind moment and
thoughts just melted whenever it’s known. So I have a period I don’t
have much thoughts but it isn’t a problem anyway.
In the end I need to stop noting, which brought me to ix awareness,
Which gave me non dual realisation
Subsequently anatta realization
So I’m ok now, without disturbance from any thoughts. Any thoughts can arise and is known clearly without a self clinging
The no self realisation chop off the root to cling
Yin Ling
Admin
Sim Pern Chong I love how you say the more suffering after no self the more dispassion.
I
find that after a period of “mind grasping” things always become so
much clearer and equanimity so much more prominent. Like a purification.
I don’t quite like to suffer but it’s kinda good for my mind 

Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Nixon Na From what I learned, the 4 right efforts are goal language, it's concerned with the results.
How
to attain to abandon bad, do good is by method language, which in terms
of the vipassana noting method, can be seen as a combination of the
method from MN20: https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/sujato?layout=plain...
Of
the ignore, due to thoughts arising so fast, no time to ruminate on
them. If there's samatha practice, then it's more of the 4th way,
calming the thoughts down to zero.
To try to do the goal language (confusing goal as method), one just uses ego, craving, makes things worse.
SUTTACENTRAL.NET
suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway
Yin Ling
Admin
Ng Xin Zhao oh i see.
I don’t use this method.
I don’t manipulate anything when I meditate nowadays
Coz I don’t experience a self I can’t do this. I need to re-exert a self to do the 4 efforts
I just look at its true nature - non self and empty. Not I look, ir just happen naturally
So the clinging is drop effortlessly, pretty cool.
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Yin Ling exactly, you're using method language. It's feels like no effort (naturally). Basically being (knowing/looking), not doing.
Result
wise is described by goal language, which is confused by common
beginners, especially ones with big ego to use strong effort.
I
am using goal language to write this (to describe method language), to
use method language to describe method language, it's more like the way
zen master talks. And like how you talk.
Yin Ling
Admin
yes it needs to be tailored to where a practitioner is imo.
I
was using effort at the start. Then I was told to drop noting when my
mind is clear and not tied by thoughts . Effort is needed at the start.
The seeker needs to be exhausted
It
was after almost 2000 hours of efforting . But that 2000 hours has
given my mind a lot of clarity now that I didn’t have before. I wouldn’t
have this mind now if I haven’t put in effort
To
ask me to put in effort after no self is a regression imo becusse
inunderstood what is effort hence I could understand what is no effort.
Without a no self realisation non-effort cannot be understood
To do nothing when one hasn’t did anything is to do nothing in delusion. Dangerous advice
Nixon Na
Ng Xin Zhao Good sutta, in there Buddha gave precise instructions to abandon unwholesomeness.
When
all else fails, he: “…with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed
against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes
mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in
him…and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to
singleness, and concentrated.”
Sometimes, strong effort is needed. But if it can be done with no effort, even better.
Like mentioned, equip oneself with tools and you’ll have many methods to work with.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
"As
for concepts like non-duality, or triple-duality or whatnot, use them
as tools. Don’t be fooled into attainments of awakening."
We have to be clear what the non-duality here means.
There are three main types listed by Acarya Malcolm but can be more than that, David Loy lists 5 or more for example.
Malcolm's 3 in summary (my own words and paraphrase, not his):
1)
ontic non-duality -- the Vedantic 'one without a second' variety of
non-duality. Everything is just one substance -- Atman-Brahman, you are
that one, all phenomena are that one, just like a necklace may appear in
various shapes but is just made of one 'thing' -- gold.
2) absence or emptiness of subject-object (such as: perceiver-perceived, agent-action, doer-deed, etc)
3) emptiness of the ontic pairs such as existence and non-existence through insight of emptiness
It
is obvious that when we realise the Buddhist insights, 1) becomes
irrelevant or is seen through as flawed. It is no longer based on a view
of essence, substance, or ontological substratum.
The
Buddha however did teach, even in Pali suttas, 2 and 3. When you have a
Buddhist awakening, the so called 'non-duality' of 2 and 3 becomes
implicit and natural even without needing to call it by that name or
give special emphasis to them as a concept. It is just non-conceptually
actualized. That is why you do not need to give special emphasis on
these as concepts, for example you can teach four noble truths and
anattalakkhana sutta and then automatically the first five students have
attained arahantship even without hearing about non-duality. In other
suttas, the Buddha however did explicitly describe the equipoise of an
arya as the suchness of heard/sensed/cognized without a cognizer and
something cognized (such as Kalaka Sutta) i.e. subject and object, and
many other suttas also describe how the overcoming of self view in
various forms includes overcoming the view and sense of being an
experiencer, agent, and watcher (Sabbasava Sutta among others).
Anyone
who experiences a state, a peak experience, where the cognizer and
cognised 'fuses into one' or a state of forgetting self is just
describing a peak experience. That is not awakening. Even if there is
some form of non-dual realization, it can end up being like Brahman.
That is also not Buddhist awakening.
But
if you realise anatta, dependent origination, emptiness ala the
Buddhist insights, and you enter the stream, whether it be called
'stream entry' or 'first bhumi' (which Malcolm calls 'Mahayana stream
entry'), automatically no subject and object is a natural and effortless
state. It is not a peak experience. All the time it will be experienced
like that (without reified subject and object) even without the
slightest effort. It is just that the insight allows the seeing through
of reification and this allows all experience to be seen in its true
face - without a self/agent/perceiver/doer-deed dichotomy, and operating
via conditionality, without self-nature or essence. It is like seeing a
picture puzzle until one day something clicks and the perspective
shifts forever, never to be unseen again. All these are far from a kind
of conceptual game, it requires a direct insight into the nature of
dhamma/dharma. The nature of mind. Then the so called no subject-object
is just implicitly so, you don't even need to emphasize it... the more
important point in fact is the absence of self-nature and
conditionality.
However,
if someone claims to have awakened in the Buddhist sense, but then they
say their subject object sense is still strong or present, I would say
this person hasn't really attained true Buddhist awakening. Even if they
claim to realise no self, it is not the true Buddhist no self insight,
but only halfway there.
Like
Ajahn Brahmavamso said those who practice meditation and jhanas can
first overcome self by seeing through and dissolving the doer. Only
later, at a more mature phase, the "last citadel of self" -- the knower
-- is seen through. How can you say for example that the self is truly
seen through but still hold oneself to be a knower behind the known
(subject and object)? So that cannot be, obviously.
The
true Buddhist insight of anatta is not only seeing through doer, but
also agent, knower, perceiver, seer, hearer, be-er, being, etc etc.
Total deconstruction of all self/Self. Then that I consider true
insight.. and Yin Ling and Sim Pern Chong fortunately has that deep penetrative insight.
William Lim
Soh Wei Yu nice definition of terms 

Sim Pern Chong
Admin
Soh Wei Yu Yup.. nice . thx... Nixon Na non-duality is not a concept.. not an idea.. It is an insight.. at a certain stage.. then it gets further refined, etc.
An
idea is something that one conceptualises. An insight is a kind of
direct knowledge.. once it is realised, it refutes the assumption before
it.
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Yin Ling Ah yes, it's the danger of mixing up goal vs method language.
Whatever application is done, which doesn't lead to Nibbana, then one can know that there's a mix up.
Initially,
goal language, which is what the language of the Pali suttas is in
mostly, (I think), is useful for beginners, for those pre-stream
winning.
Then
after some time, the habit builds up, the method language is gradually
realized to be more efficient. There might be some confusing the method
as goal, leading to non-practise. But it's good to note then, and use
method as method, not as goal. Goal is to have bad abandoned, the
results. Method is letting be. Result is letting go.
Like
a lot of Ajahn Brahm's advice of do nothing in meditation, let Jhana
happen. One cannot attain to Jhana (using the ego), Jhana happens when
the self is dropped.
So
here goal language is to attain to Jhana, method language is letting
be. To misuse method language of do nothing in meditation as goal, leads
to not meditating. To misuse goal language of enter Jhana as method
leads to using ego to enter into Jhana.
"Without a no self realisation non-effort cannot be understood"
It
can, to a smaller extent. That's why I am developing this goal vs
method language to make it clear where the pitfalls are, how to use each
language correctly.
"Effort is needed at the start. The seeker needs to be exhausted"
Same as Ajahn Brahm said. Give up the hope that one can enter into Jhana, that's the way to enter into Jhana.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Once
true insight into anatta, conditionality, absence of self-nature /
emptiness arise... not only subject and object, but the 6 wrong views of
self in Sabbasava Sutta, and the 62 kinds of wrong views in The
Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1), etc etc are automatically demolished in an
instant of direct insight, never to arise again. Not one by one refute
them... that is more like conceptual explanation as a skillful means of
teaching.
No
more eternalism and nihilism, no subject and object, etc. As Malcolm
puts it "The point is that there is no point to eternalism if there is
no eternal agent or object."
Yin Ling
Admin
I’m
not really talking about jhana though jhana is still a fabrication not
realisation. Not the goal. I understnd you want to say jhana is the
goals but I’m afraid ppl think this is all jhana:
There
is effort to go into jhana. There are set ups and where to focus on and
where to breath etc etc then one enter and then one exit
The realisation of no self is literally a differnt space altogether
You are living in it all moment you cannot get out it is a gateless gate
One
also don’t know how to get out. It is irreversible. It’s like you grow
into sthg else and can never go back again being a person. Impossible.
You will know when you are there. No doubt
The doubter is gone lol
That is the aim.
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu yes it is literally chopping off the root to all clinging
While what Nixon Na is talking about is chopping branches
Chopping branches can regrow
Root will not.
That is no self realisation
Ng Xin Zhao
Author
Yin Ling Sorry, not to say that the goal only got one goal. It's just the name of the language system used.
There
are other names for goal vs method, the first one corresponds to goal,
the second is to method. Horizontal vs vertical thinking, Doing vs
being, conventional vs ultimate reality, etc.
Yes, based on Soh Wei Yu's
explaination, I think the method language is different for people at
different stages, when their goal (next result) is different.
After no self, it seems that method is not so much being anymore.
Nixon Na
Yin Ling
The 4 right efforts in the sutta are a prevention & maintenance
strategy by the Buddha for keeping the mind clean. The sutta Ng Xin Zhao posted (MN 20) are actual techniques on how to perform the cleansing.
One
must not belittle these instructions, it is not just chopping branches,
this is the method itself to ending negative states of mind. This is
preparatory exercise before seated meditation.
I’m
positive your experience of “non-duality” resting in bliss works. In
time to come, as you progress you may find certain negativities do not
always respond to your method. Despite resting in awareness, disturbing
thoughts still arise. Then, you may find the Buddha’s method useful as
an alternative tool.
For if one is truly awakened via the no self realisation, why is there still dukkha, doubts and clinging remaining?
Yin Ling
Admin
No self realisation is stream entry.
There is still 7 fetters left to slowly be eradicated, hence dukkha clinging still remain
But doubt won’t. Doubt will be eradicated at stream .
But no self realisation is a prerequisite to eradication of the other 7 fetters
Without this realisation it is impossible to eradicate greed hatred and delusion thoroughly
Karma still runs
Hence it is call ENTERING THE STREAM
One float slowly to the sea in maximum 7 lifetimes bec
the
realisation will carry that being towards full enlightenment bec their
view is correct and the tendency to create more afficlfion is greatly
subdued
They
view the world differently, coz they don’t have self other view, they
won’t easily go against the precepts that easily , emotional afflictions
drop. Karma is purified
It is worthwhile to read myriad object post on stream entry in the above link soh posted
The effort to reduce unwholesome thoughts are important too,
However this is a provisional teaching for those who are not incline to realise stream entry. It is from a self view.
The Buddha taught many ppl. So teachings are very personalised. It is not a one size fit all
William Lim
"No self realization is a PREREQUISITE to the eradication of the other 7 fetters"

Nixon Na
Yin Ling Have a look at this sutta https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato?layout=plain...

SUTTACENTRAL.NET
SuttaCentral
Yin Ling
Admin
Nixon Na yup the sutra just talked about what I just said
“Suppose
there was a large tree standing with heartwood. It is possible to cut
out the heartwood after having cut through the bark and the softwood. In
the same way, there is a path and a practice for giving up the five
lower fetters. It is possible to know and see and give up the five lower
fetters by relying on that path and that practice. Suppose the river
Ganges was full to the brim so a crow could drink from it. Then along
comes a feeble person, who thinks: ‘By swimming with my arms I’ll safely
cross over to the far shore of the Ganges.’ But they’re not able to do
so. In the same way, when the Dhamma is being taught for the cessation
of identity view, someone whose mind isn’t eager, confident, settled,
and decided should be regarded as being like that feeble person. Suppose
the river Ganges was full to the brim so a crow could drink from it.
Then along comes a strong person, who thinks: ‘By swimming with my arms
I’ll safely cross over to the far shore of the Ganges.’ And they are
able to do so.”
There is feeble person and strong person
The feeble person Buddha will ask them cut branches
The strong Buddha will ask them chop off identity view
Hence we need to see who is feeble and who is strong before we dispense teaching 

Yin Ling
Admin
“Sir,
if this is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower
fetters, how come some mendicants here are released in heart while
others are released by wisdom?”
“In that case, I say it is the diversity of their faculties.”
That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, Venerable Ānanda was happy with what the Buddha said
Here Buddha explained
Release in heart
Released by wisdom
First is branch
Second is root
Second is no self realisation

Ok I have made myself clear, gonna get off this thread, nice chat! Practise well!
Sim Pern Chong
Admin
Nixon Na
The No-self realisation is Stream Entry. Before that, there is no
guarantee of full enlightenment. In the Teaching, it is said that a
Stream Enterer will have a maximum of 7 lives before full enlightenment.
It is not some kind of thing that the 'self' is going to put self-ing
effort in. It is irreversible 

There
is radical change in perception and understanding after stream entry.
From that point onwards, the person also intuitively knows how the
fetters will be removed. It is not by using a 'self'.. it will seems as
counter productive from that point onwards.
I
hope you can understand that perhaps there are insights that you are
not aware of (yet). Not saying it out of pride or anything, pls do not
mis-interpret. Just sharing for possibilities.
Thanks.
William Lim
Sim Pern Chong I'm glad you brought up the "radical change in perception".
Not many people understand that realization is an experiential thing and that there is "radical change in perception".
And it is this change in perception that brings about insights.
I
think more realized people should talk about what this change of
perception is, and how realization "feels" from an experiential
viewpoint.
Sim Pern Chong
Admin
William Lim
Personally, i am reluctant to talk about these stuffs partly becos it
is serious matters and i don't want to be seen as knowing more that what
i really know..
. I can't keep up with an image
. But, time is running short.. so i feel i should contribute abit.


William Lim
Sim Pern Chong
that's the spirit dude! It's a serious matter indeed, and that's why it
needs to be spoken about. I think speaking from what you know will
already be very beneficial to many. Yogi power unite!
Yin Ling
Admin
Sim Pern Chong
for what it is worth, your forum post with thusness many years back
have been so helpful for maturing my own insight bec both of you are so
sincere and serious about realisations and are so insightful.
It’s been a decade plus, you will have so much to contribute from personal experience which is precious
I really hope you come back and contribute
I’m sure Many will benefit.

Yin Ling
Admin
Sim Pern Chong
for what it is worth, your forum post with thusness many years back
have been so helpful for maturing my own insight bec both of you are so
sincere and serious about realisations and are so insightful.
It’s been a decade plus, you will have so much to contribute from personal experience which is precious
I really hope you come back and contribute
I’m sure Many will benefit.

Parami Xuan

I think it is the subtle view one puts the mind to. Or the mind that believes or aspiring towards.
If
using non duality gets one to that state of deep peace and quiet
mindful of see seeing with some form of samadhi to sustain, then this
can be a technique to come to here.
The
view, knowledge that one inputs the mind or a belief that the mind
holds or subscribes to is the one that either concludes this state or
allows one to continue to navigate and investigate the mind intuitively.