- Non-duality, Anatta and BusinessCurious about running a business from a non-dual perspective and if it’s even possible.In my very little business (7 employees) I have to do it in a sort of ‘this is the agreed game we are playing’ kind of way, pretend we are all separate to an extent….yet it has thrown up many incongruencies, conflicts, hard decisions and questions over the years. (Yes, excellent training ground!).Like, why would I want to make maximum money from this ‘other’ who I feel such overflowing love for and who is not other at all. It seems I have to ‘other’ them and ‘self’ a me to engage with it all. Yet that is actually impossible. The client base is wealthy so it’s relatively easy in the sense that making a profit isn’t exploitative, as they aren’t struggling financially.Yet still, they are me and usually they would prefer to give me as little as possible, and I’m supposed to want as much as possible.And also with employees, I want to pay them as much as I possibly can, why wouldn’t I ! They are me. Yet the ‘sensible’ business model way would be to want to and try and pay them as little as possible and maximise profit.I see them as sovereign powerful beings and would love to see them thriving and expanding, busy with more fun higher things than struggling financially. Yet the industry is relatively low paid and aware there’s a larger dominant surrounding economic model which has a strong influence that has to be navigated with.There’s a running joke in my company that it is run by ‘The Force” (as in star wars) and we laugh about the clients’ reactions if they knew that.Aware that my ego kind of likes that I’m posting this, as it could be interpreted as virtue signally. Tick, ok with and clock that. Not looking for any ‘well done’s’ here. Some goals above might seem virtuous but that isn’t the motive, which is to live in a congruent way, probably in a right livelihood sense.Maybe that’s the succinct question there, can a business be run in a truly no self, non-dual, right livelihood way? Or maybe if I was truly in anatta none of this would even come up and that alone should be the focus and everything else would fall into place. Pls delete if this is off topic!
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BUDDHISTECONOMICS.NET
Home
Mr./Ms. SG
Author
Ng Xin Zhao thanks, looks interesting…how it might scale up to the macro economic situation…maybe where we are evolving towards
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
You can be rich, awakened, and benefit the sangha.
In pali canon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathapindika
EN.M.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
Anathapindika - Wikipedia
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
In mahayana canon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimalakirti_Sutra
The
scene is now Vimalakīrti's house in Vaiśālī. He is a wealthy merchant
householder. He is a husband and a father. However, he is also a
powerful bodhisattva with Buddha-like qualities.
EN.M.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
Vimalakirti Sutra - Wikipedia
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
John tan is a rich and successful businessman. Unfortunately he is not in this group to comment.
Ng Xin Zhao
I didn't read the Buddhist economics yet, but here's some ready stuffs I have on hand.
Don't
need to buy into economics is built on greed. There's many companies
which are not greed based. Non-profit organizations for example. One can
also share wealth with the employees by having them as automatic share
holders of the company, paying the profits to all via dividend.
Can also read some Marxism, Star trek economy without money, https://www.thevenusproject.com/
Corporate
social responsibilities, looking towards being green, using profits for
good projects. Like so many billionaires are using it to fund space
travel. Can use it to end poverty, promote vegan food, plant based meat
etc.
And look to Buddhist temples who has staffs too.
THEVENUSPROJECT.COM
The Venus Project
Mr./Ms. SG
Author
Ng Xin Zhao thanks for that and the link to the Venus Project, really inspiring to see such visionaries and projects exist
Òskar K. Linares
It
is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick
society. - K. So no, it's not possible, capitalism is too sick. You will
have to compete, want it or not... As said before, greed is in the
leading force in capitalist economy. A rat's race towards disaster. You
cannot avoid it if you enter to play the game. Sorry. If you want
something non-dual you may work for a non-profit org helping others.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
John tan said:
Not
affected by the 8 winds of prosperity, decline, disgrace, honor,
praise, censure, suffering and pleasure is the anatta and non-dual of
business. Recognize it by taste, not by forms.
But also be aware of 苏东坡 poems of the 8 winds and zen master 佛印 story... Haha
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Regarding the su dong po poems: https://medium.com/.../the-eight-winds-cannot-move-me...
MEDIUM.COM
The Eight Winds Cannot Move Me
Nafis Rahman
This post from last year is pretty similar: https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/5885291134845601/
Sample reply:
Soh Wei Yu Admin
To
the best of your ability practice the paramitas and let go of
attachment to the eight worldly winds. But take steps to attain
realisation, especially anatta realisation is crucial (but one can start
with the I AM, etc). And as Albert Hong said yesterday, "Daily
practice, or having a formal practice schedule day in and day out is
obviously the baseline. Then integrating that with your life.
But integration isn't possible in the way OP is getting at unless one has something to actually integrate.
Hence why retreat or doing a LOT of practice in daily life is paramount to have any success and progress."
Practically
speaking, it is very difficult to overcome these attachments without
correct realisation, although we just do our best in practice. For
example, John Tan suffered a lot despite his I AM realization, glimpses
of nondual and so on when faced with bankruptcy in 1997, which then
became the condition for him to take refuge in the triple gems and
realise anatta. Even after realising anatta it does not mean immediately
we become free from all attachments and become an arahant, there is
also a period of deepening and overcoming of any traces or tendencies.
John Tan said in 2005,
"Hi Long Chen,
Nice
to see you and Eternal Now too. As to your question whether one's
enlightenment will hinder oneself from relating in a normal society, I
supposed not. For one that has arrived at the fundamental ground,
whatever role he assumes, whether as a monk, teacher, businessman or a
beggar, he remains free. When it comes to practical application, he will
naturally know how to harmonize and fuses completely with everything.
In
Buddhism, No-Self is not a question of morality; it is a question of
the true nature of the phenomenon reality. From the marco universe to
the quantum world of quarks, from time to space, from body to
consciousness, all exhibit this characteristic. Emptiness prevails
everywhere. Even right now at this moment, we witness the Emptiness
truth in action -- the moment ceases as it arises. There is no changing
thing (Self), only change. Viewing things as solid entities and
categorizing them as 'this' or 'that' is due to the poverty of our
thinking mechanism, it is not reality.
The
act of labeling will make 'things' appear solid and separated, to the
extent that even when we are dealing with the very essence of ourselves
-- the pure awareness, we make it an 'I AM'. 'I AMness' is perhaps the
furthest the Thinking-Mind can give way and it is never meant merely as
an expression for communication. We seek, find and attempt to locate it
as if it is a solid entity hiding somewhere. As long as this wrong way
of 'seeing' persists, there will be attachments and sufferings. This is
the way it is; you cannot eliminate attachment with an 'I'. Therefore
the capacity to see by awakening the emptiness wisdom is especially
important in Buddhism.
Bare
attention that is taught in insight meditation trains one to see
without labeling, without a layer of words. It presents us a new mode of
experiencing reality as an ever changing inseparable flux. Without this
layer of thought, 'I' has no place to reside and slowly the bond of 'I'
will loosen and subside. If the karmic condition ripens, the mysterious
relationship between the pure awareness and the phenomenon world will
be revealed.
The
experience of I AM is an intuitive experience of our naked
consciousness. It is seeing Consciousness face to face and touching
Consciousness directly without in between thoughts. But its Emptiness
nature must be understood to progress further. I got to go now....do
take care.
Thusness
Edited by Thusness 21 Oct `05, 9:35AM "
Nafis Rahman
John Tan, 2006,
"When
in business, set our goals and go for it! We can’t afford to be
flickered minded in business. I agree that the business world can serves
as a good practice ground; just that it is easy to enter, difficult to
get out when it grows.
There
is this latent tendency of the mind to identify in a very subtle way
that goes undetected until we are forced to confront our identifications
and attachments. I always thought I have achieved certain level of
detachment but Singapore’s past 3 major recessions revealed otherwise.
Never in the past 3 recessions when attempting to save my businesses had
I able to remain pure, calm and stable. In fact many evil and
unwholesome thoughts surfaced (too shame to list them all). I am
fortunate that I managed to survive these crises, they are nightmares
but I do not want to roll in it till my last day; however settling these
businesses can take many years. Like karma that rolls on, we never know
whether we can stop it at the correct time.
In
my opinion, spirituality is more than just being healthy
psychologically and having a good life in the here and now. There is a
deeper sense to it; a deeper conviction that this life is but a spark in
a never ending stream. I would not call it an ambition but it
definitely starts from a deep call within to understand who we truly
are. Do leave some years for the bliss you mentioned, I wish you
success."
Nafis Rahman
Soh Wei Yu Admin
The
spiritual path is all about totally obliterating all delusions and
sense of self/Self and later the subtle knowledge obscurations. For that
you need to realise, and if you haven't realise then take steps to
realisation, then after realisation there is usually still ongoing
practice and two obscurations that are gradually eliminated. Anything
that supports that path or at least does not detract one from that, will
be supportive. Examples of actions that would not be supportive would
be the ten nonvirtues*, or any acts that harms oneself and/or others,
disturbs the mind, causes guilt and other unwholesome mental factors
which can obscure the clarity and stability of one's mind. The ten
unwholesome or nonvirtuous actions themselves arise out of afflictions
and self-grasping.
None
of those actions you mentioned, in and of themselves, are necessities
nor hindrances for awakening but are individual specific. Nobody can
tell you what you must do, it must come from one's own intuitive
awareness. For example taking responsibility for family - what about
monks? Monks don't need to take responsibility for family (other than
perhaps in some ways like teaching dharma and so on), but many monks are
awakened. But as a lay person if you have a family, then taking
responsibility for family is also not in and of itself an obstacle, but
what is appropriate for you.
Engagement
in activity is not necessarily an obstacle, in fact, when one is
actualizing anatta, one is fully engaged in a non-dual manner, from
sound and sight and smell and taste and touch and thought... to full
engagement in action where the whole universe is exerting in that
action/activity. One is only not engaged in the moment of action if
there is a sense of self, dissociating, withdrawing, contracting away
from the moment of experience or action. Dissociation is the result of
sense of self and grasping, thus a cause of suffering. But at the same
time if one is attached or grasping while engaging, then one is
appropriating things in terms of I, me, and mine, then it becomes an
obstacle and a cause for suffering as well. So, the key and quality of
spiritual practices does not always lie in 'what' you are
doing/not-doing, but more in terms of the quality of how you are
relating or experiencing that moment, and more fundamentally whether one
is operating from ignorance or wisdom/gnosis.
There
is also the teaching of non-action, wu wei, or wei wu wei -- actionless
action. In actionless action, the gap between actor and action is
refined till none. As John Tan puts it in 2012, "When the gap between
actor and action is refined till none, that is non-action and that
non-action is total action. Whether this total action is understood as
the natural way will depend on whether the insight of anatta has arisen.
Anatta is the insight that allows the practitioner to see clearly that
this has always been the case." - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../total-exertion_20.html
Besides
the refining the gap of actor and action till none, there are also the
qualities of 'action without seeking results', behaving without hopes
and fears. Almost like you are doing something for the sake of just
doing something, rather than a result in the future. There can moments
of planning, a goal, but in that moment of executing there is no
attachment to all these, just pure action. And one is not attached to an
expected result or outcome either. The means becomes an end to itself.
As John Tan said, in his business career, he had to deal with a lot of
these, and the key is completely relinquishing all grasping at 'gain'
and 'loss' into non-action. This is also a key to non-action and
liberation. The relinquishment of grasping towards the eight worldly
winds: Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, &
pain https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN8_6.html
Now
I speak as if spirituality is only totally 'self immolating' or 'self
relinquishment' as if it is a complete opposite of 'self improvement'.
That is also not necessarily the case. Improvement is always happening
and is usually something positive, but while actualizing it comes from
the flow of the total exertion. Like you learn and become good at
singing by the full engagement of singing, you learn and become good at
tennis by the full engagement of playing tennis. The learning does not
come from a 'self' trying to 'know' or 'grasp' or 'learn' or 'become
better' at something. Simply let the full engagement of whole
body-mind-universe totally exerting itself, improve itself by itself and
just lose yourself in that whole process without even grasping or
seeking for an outcome, that whole 'self' construct is unnecessary and
extra. Then actions can be self-liberated. Otherwise, all actions just
become worldly karma or actions, karmic activities, that leave traces
resulting and ripening in good and bad experiences in samsara but no
liberation.
Total Exertion
Total Exertion
Total Exertion
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AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Awakening to Reality
Mr./Ms. SG
Author
Nafis Rahman
thank you, so much in there. “Without hopes and fears”. One of the
major lessons of running a business for me, riddles with so many fears
and hopes, mostly fears! And yet now with more equanimity in the mix
after some years, I sit right back inside and ‘allow’ much more. And
strangely, like magic, the business does better without ‘me’ in the way.
Observing this with interest and amusement after years of
rollercoastering.
Nafis Rahman
Soh Wei Yu Admin
Actualizing
is only the natural way after insight into anatta as 'always already
so', but before that one can still practice non-action and letting go
gain/loss, hopes/fears, the paramitas and so on. These will help lessen
and dissolve the sense of self in activities. Then take steps to give
rise to the correct realisations. At some point, the insights are
naturally actualized in daily living.
“Soh Wei Yu Sunday, April 21, 2013 at 11:38pm UTC+10
facing
all kinds of stuff in life and yet experiencing the three
characteristics of self-liberation like you said, "non-duality,
non-attachment and fearlessness" is how I understand dong zhong xiu
(practice amidst movement) now
John TanSunday, April 21, 2013 at 11:39pm UTC+10
yes
but with the direct and intuitive knowledge that there is no you facing
anything, it is the entire universe facing it. it is like all the
phases of your insights actualized in this conventional world.
means when say talking to my children, it is neither me nor him… it is one activity
like I talk to you, it does not mean that soh does not exist.
it
is just no thusness or soh, only the question on hand that makes up the
situation… or when you talking to your teacher, no teacher or student
relationship… just a single activity… get it?
teacher
is not teacher, student not student… teacher becomes the student, the
student becomes the teacher, the teacher is the teacher, the student is
the student, no teacher, no student...all as one activity...
everything
interpenetrates, everything interdefines, there is no everything… when
eyes are open.. .the spontaneous presence of scenery… no seer, no
seeing, no seen… seer is the seeing is the seen… just this, the entire
movement.
this must be your moment to moment encounter in mundane activity.
deconstruct
self, deconstruct physical, deconstruct external, deconstruct internal…
be free from all arbitrary definitions and stories… then whatever
experience is neither physical nor mental nor spiritual... just direct,
non-conceptual as it is state of self arising… be free from all
arbitrary thoughts and definitions… don't let 'yourself' be troubled by
all these so that this activity is unobstructed and uncontrived in clean
purity… then experience will be transparent and total.”
1
· Reply
· 5w
Nafis Rahman
"Has
awareness stood out? There is no concentration needed. When six entries
and exits are pure and primordial, the unconditioned stands shining,
relaxed and uncontrived, luminous yet empty. The purpose of going
through the 7 phases of perception shift is for this... Whatever arises
is free and uncontrived, that is the supreme path. Whatever arises has
never left their nirvanic state... ... your current mode of practice
[after those experiential insights] should be as direct and uncontrived
as possible. When you see nothing behind and magical appearances are too
empty, awareness is naturally lucid and free. Views and all
elaborations dissolved, mind-body forgotten... just unobstructed
awareness. Awareness natural and uncontrived is supreme goal. Relax and
do nothing, Open and boundless, Spontaneous and free, Whatever arises is
fine and liberated, This is the supreme path. Top/bottom,
inside/outside, Always without center and empty (2-fold emptiness), Then
view is fully actualized and all experiences are great liberation." -
John Tan, 2012
“There's
absolutely no need to attempt to bring anything whatsoever, presence,
witnessing, whatever, into sleep or any states (waking, dreaming, and
deep sleep). Any dualistic effort is a form of doing. Bringing in a
watcher is karma. All dharmas, all phenomena, are fundamentally
quiescent as nirvana, fundamentally non-arising and naturally
manifesting as one's own state of radiance. Therefore true practice is
resting in the natural, spontaneous perfection of luminosity and
emptiness. Practice becomes dynamic rather than technique-bound as the
spontaneous unfolding or self-arising of all displays, activities,
sounds, colors, sensations, gets auto-actualized as the wisdom of
luminous-emptiness. Everything arises as the state of meditation, which
is non-meditation. Yet this requires anatta and emptiness insight as
prerequisite.” - Soh, 2018
In
the words of Ch’an Master Hsiang-yen: “At one stroke I forgot all my
knowledge! There’s no use for artificial discipline, For, move as I
will, I manifest the ancient Way.9 i
The Way of Zen (p. 145). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.”
(Related: Satsang Nathan Videos where Nathan also quoted Ch’an Master Hsiang-yen and Bahiya Sutta)
“[11:53
PM, 12/8/2019] John Tan: It [referring to the words of Ch’an Master
Hsiang-yen] is referring to natural state. But that is very high
attainment...lol. easy to say, need aeons of life of 修为 [cultivation]。
Natural state is non-practice. Means 起心动念 [arising of thoughts] is
naturally free and spontaneously perfected. Every moment is practice,
whole-body mind is naturally mindful and aware. However 99.9% of us are
not there… lol” - John Tan, 2019
Nafis Rahman
“When
anatta matures, one is fully and completely integrated into whatever
arises till there is no difference and no distinction.
When
sound arises, fully and completely embraced with sound yet
non-attached. Similarly, in life we must be fully engaged yet
non-attached” - John Tan/Thusness
“[6:44
PM, 5/1/2019] John Tan: The 8 worldly concerns are the places you
practice. That is why I told you engage in situations and events. Karmic
propensities will not manifest without conditions. They remain hidden.
Therefore last phase is always the market place. If you did not enter
the marketplace, realization is not actualized.”
(Note: on practicing in the midst of the eight worldly conditions, refer to Lokavipatti Sutta at https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN8_6.html - in brief; they are gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain)
"There is the self that arises from conceptual reification, seeing through that with anatta insight is entry point.
There is the self that arises in marketplace, in day to day activities, anatta of that is graduation." - John Tan, 2018
“the
degree of openess and effortlessness are a matter of wisdom in seeing
through... and this seeing through is only actualized in moment to
moment engagement.
We do not know how much residue is left until we meet conditions" - John Tan
“Andre
posted another good article today about how the 8 worldly concerns in
daily engagements relate to agentless-action, dependent origination and
emptiness and all these play their inevitable bits in wearing off our
obscurations. As the sutra explained, habitual obscurations are
exceedingly subtle like scent left behind a container hence there is no
short-cut to liberation -- it’s all step by step and bit by bit erosion
of the nuances and subtleness of “inherentness” in one’s ignorance.” –
John Tan, Connecting dots, authenticating DO
“To
me, actualization of one's insights is like a lotus, pure, mature and
beautiful wherever is. Peace is not sitting [with] nothing to do [while]
appreciating sunrise and sunset … it is entering hellish conditions [while] not being affected like a lotus.” - John Tan, 2019
[12:04 PM, 4/12/2020] John Tan: I hope this pandemic ends quickly, it is world war III in actuality.
[12:05
PM, 4/12/2020] John Tan: But it is extremely touching to see some
people showing care to those that needs them. Even hawkers are showing.
[12:05 PM, 4/12/2020] John Tan: ‘I’m losing money, might as well do good’: The hawkers helping the helpless
[12:06 PM, 4/12/2020] John Tan: https://www.cnbc.com/.../told-my-landlord-i-cant-pay-rent...
[12:06 PM, 4/12/2020] John Tan: It is extremely warm to read these kind of stories.
[12:08 PM, 4/12/2020] John Tan: You see, I want you to look into these in practice.
[12:09
PM, 4/12/2020] John Tan: Practice is not just non-dual. But to dirty
your hand and still rising above them like the symbol of a lotus. Not
disassociating.
“IMO
there is no further, it is the depth of how deep and how much the self
is released regardless of what path is taken. I am not a teacher, there
may be other ways… … Dealing with the mind, energy and awareness is a
complex journey. There is the safe way and the dangerous way. The way is
quite straightforward but the mind uncontented will look for shortcuts
as it wants more. But that is usual… lol. There are those that want
others to know about it and wrote about it and there are those that are
not into this.
Soh has written a lot and visited many masters that can probably share with you better.
As
for me, my path is simple. It is just plainly and simply opening myself
in my work, seeing my family and children enjoy… ever tasting these
natural expressions. I find them miraculous yet ordinary, others may not
and look for more. So I am unable to tell them anything further.” -
John Tan, 2019
“Actually
there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed
in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to
engage… it is a natural [tendency] to explore in [various] arena[s] and
enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I [am] involve[d] in
Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga.... I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan, 2019
“Just
met a friend yesterday who recently started meditating. His girlfriend
joked that he might be becoming a monk. I told him that besides the
daily sitting meditation, practice is mostly and very much in daily life
and engagement rather than in some remote region in the mountains, it
is about living a life in the marketplace that is spontaneously
beneficial for oneself and others around, and joyful, rather than one
that is miserable. It is fully engaged and free.
At
its deepest, most basic level, Zen—or any spiritual path, for that
matter—is much more than a list of what we can get from it. In fact, Zen
is the realization of the oneness of life in all its aspects. It’s not
just the pure or “spiritual” part of life: it’s the whole thing. It’s
flowers, mountains, rivers, streams, and the inner city and homeless
children on Forty-second Street. It’s the empty sky and the cloudy sky
and the smoggy sky, too. It’s the pigeon flying in the empty sky, the
pigeon shitting in the empty sky, and walking through the pigeon
droppings on the sidewalk. It’s the rose growing in the garden, the cut
rose shining in the vase in the living room, the garbage where we throw
away the rose, and the compost where we throw away the garbage. Zen is
life—our life. It’s coming to the realization that all things are
nothing but expressions of myself. And myself is nothing but the full
expression of all things. It’s a life without limits. There are many
different metaphors for such a life. But the one that I have found the
most useful, and the most meaningful, comes from the kitchen. Zen
masters call a life that is lived fully and completely, with nothing
held back, “the supreme meal.” And a person who lives such a life—a
person who knows how to plan, cook, appreciate, serve, and offer the
supreme meal of life, is called a Zen cook.”
“But
why does a venerable elder such as yourself waste time doing the hard
work of a head cook?” Dogen persisted. “Why don’t you spend your time
practicing meditation or studying the words of the masters?” The Zen
cook burst out laughing, as if Dogen had said something very funny. “My
dear foreign friend,” he said, “it’s clear you do not yet understand
what Zen practice is all about. When you get the chance, please come and
visit me at my monastery so we can discuss these matters more fully.”
And with that, he gathered up his mushrooms and began the long journey
back to his monastery. Dogen did eventually visit and study with the Zen
cook in his monastery, as well as with many other masters. When he
finally returned to Japan, Dogen became a celebrated Zen master. But he
never forgot the lessons he learned from the Zen cook in China.”
- Zen Master Bernie Glassman” - Soh, 2019
“In
Zen, enlightenment implies full integration into activities. Any lack
of such insight is not 'enlightenment in Zen'.” - John Tan, 2010
“My daily activities are not unusual,
I'm just naturally in harmony with them.
Grasping nothing, discarding nothing,
In every place there's no hindrance, no conflict.
Who assigns the ranks of vermilion and purple?
The hills' and mountains' last speck of dust
is extinguished.
[My] supernatural power and marvelous activity—
Drawing water and carrying firewood.” - Layman Pang
For more: ATR Guide - Entering the Marketplace, Actualizing Daily Life
DHAMMATALKS.ORG
AN 8:6 Lokavipatti Sutta | The Failings of the World
Angelo Grr
Admin
All
I can speak from is my own experience. For me it’s easy because there
are no agendas. There’s no finger on the scale at a fundamental level
influencing how it goes, it just goes or doesn’t. Simple and
spontaneous. But interestingly that eliminates fear, greed etc, which
eliminates hesitation but doesn’t exclude genuine concern for how the
business activity affects all things. Without competing agendas it
becomes simple and naturally enjoyable.