Session Start: Saturday, January 31, 2009
(10:04 PM) AEN: hi wat u tink about this article: http://www.easwaran.org/page/32
(4:00 AM) AEN: http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/serv_joa/joa_10.htm
(4:09 AM) AEN: next page, the author spoke of the problem of resting in background http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/serv_joa/joa_11.htm
his story is v interesting i read from the first page until here :P
(4:10 AM) AEN: its his journal of awakening
(4:15 AM) AEN: in that page he also talk about letting go of control
(4:19 AM) AEN: http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/serv_joa/joa_12.htm -- he talked about transcending duality totally here
Session Start: Sunday, February 01, 2009
(10:55 AM) Thusness: The experience is there but the clarity in terms of insight of our nature is still not there yet. When one has not matured the experience of anatta, emptiness, it is difficult to see the real causes and conditions of non-dual experience and 'effortlessness' of this experience.
(10:56 AM) AEN: oic..
(10:58 AM) Thusness: the url u send me yesterday about science and buddhism i think is quite good. But direct experience is more important
(10:58 AM) AEN: icic..
(10:58 AM) Thusness: what is the url again?
(10:58 AM) AEN: http://www.easwaran.org/page/32
(10:59 AM) Thusness: But the experience the author is moving from "I AMness" into seeing the non-dual aspect of this "I AMness"
(11:00 AM) AEN: the science one?
(11:00 AM) Thusness: The 'center' is still very much there. It is intertwined into his experience of non-duality.
nope in the realization.org
(11:00 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:01 AM) Thusness: The glimpse of transparency is there but there is no permanent lucidity.
(11:01 AM) AEN: he said "I'd like to mention something about the sense of "continuity" or oneness. I had a "dorje" like, lightning in a dark night, kind of insight about a month after I transitioned to a background Awakening with Arjuna last April, leading me to see the "continuity" or "no difference" between, consciousness, attention, space and objects. What I am talking about now is different, however. That previous flash occurred within the context
(11:01 AM) Thusness: I do not know how is his progress now, but at the time of writing, it is still not really there.
(11:01 AM) AEN: of a background realization, and the sense of "being in the background" remained. It was as if the insight was analogous to taking a core sample of the ocean floor from a boat - the insight was the cable, which extended out into the ocean floor, but "I" remained in the boat. Even though the insight led to a similar recognition, is far different when, in the full realization, you "are" the
objects, not separate from them by any background cave. In the previous case, the locus of my self-nature remained in the background, whereas now, that locus of self-nature, heart, whatever, is interspersed in objects. So basically what I am saying here is that similar insights from the position of background and foreground may
lead one to the conclusion that these are identical realizations, but my own experience has shown them to be very different, based on the metaphors of "fission" (background realization, the culmination of the sifting
out, neti-neti process) and "fusion" (the marriage of one's self-nature, consciousness, with objects). But try to tell that to an Advaitic realizer!!
(11:02 AM) Thusness: Yes i read that.
(11:02 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:03 AM) Thusness: means he is very clear about this experience of witness and phenomena but is not clear that witness is really the phenomena.
means he is clear about "I AMness" as the background is not it.
(11:03 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:03 AM) Thusness: problem lies in the not realising what is the tendency.
(11:04 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:04 AM) Thusness: and the experience of anatta.
(11:06 AM) Thusness: Actually after another 10 years of experiences, given his sincerity, his experiences should already be fairly mature.
The 'center' is the result of karma.
(11:06 AM) Thusness: requires DO to break this entirely.
(11:07 AM) AEN: oic..
he wrote that in 1995
(11:08 AM) AEN: heres another writing by him http://www.heartspace.org/writings/essays/2001/HeartSpaceOSKA.html .... but his website not updated since 2001. he is now into dzogchen and mahamudra
(11:09 AM) Thusness: If he is into Mahamudra, then he is safe and there. :)
(11:10 AM) AEN: ic.. yeah.. in more recent years since 1996 he started to learn from a number of tibetan masters
(11:10 AM) Thusness: This is a good illustration that one even without understanding will come out those techniques similar to what that is described in Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
(11:11 AM) Thusness: Then when he meets Mahamudra or Dzogchen, immediately he recognized the profundity of these teachings.
He will progress very fast from there.
(11:11 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:12 AM) Thusness: What he urgently need is to have correct view to integrate the base of all his experiences.
(11:12 AM) Thusness: and truly understand emptiness to correctly transform his experience into empty luminosity.
(11:12 AM) AEN: but those who learn from mahamudra and dzogchen not necessarily will integrate the view rite... like ken wilber also learnt under a few dzogchen masters
(11:13 AM) AEN: and even got his experience authenticated by at least one of them
(11:13 AM) Thusness: But emptiness must be stressed as DO to him.
(11:13 AM) AEN: oic
(11:14 AM) Thusness: because of his experience, he might skewed his understanding towards Advaita sort of understanding therefore for him, DO must be emphasized instead of simply talk about the unfindable, ungraspable, insubstantiality.
(11:14 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 AM) AEN: he talk about non locality also http://www.heartspace.org/misc/IndraNet.html
(11:16 AM) Thusness: haha...that website by him ah?
(11:16 AM) AEN: yea
(11:16 AM) Thusness: then he is there liao lah
(11:16 AM) AEN: oic
(11:17 AM) Thusness: read point 2 and 3
(11:18 AM) AEN: ok..
what about it
(11:20 AM) Thusness: means he clearly knows the difference.
(11:20 AM) AEN: the difference of what?
(11:26 AM) Thusness: Advaita and Vedanta
(11:27 AM) AEN: u mean advaita and buddhism?
(11:27 AM) Thusness: yeah
(11:28 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:29 AM) Thusness: However as at that date, his spiritual journals are so so only. :P
(11:29 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:39 AM) Thusness: I have told u the 3 important phase of enlightenment, what are those?
(11:40 AM) AEN: u mean the mirror analogy one?
(11:40 AM) Thusness: no, from very beginning i already told u.
(11:41 AM) Thusness: even b4 jonls i think.
(11:41 AM) AEN: non duality, then emptiness, then spontaneous arising
(11:41 AM) Thusness: yes
(11:41 AM) AEN: or abiding presence
(11:41 AM) Thusness: I told u not to talk about spontaneous arising because it will be misunderstood.
(11:41 AM) AEN: oic
(11:42 AM) Thusness: there is no need to tell how much u know and what is being experienced unless time is right then communication will be meaningful.
(11:42 AM) Thusness: u cannot tell someone that absolutely nothing needs to be done and all is always and already is.
(11:43 AM) Thusness: I din not write it down in the six stages although i told u about it.
(11:43 AM) Thusness: so what are the conditions to see whether a person is ready?
(11:43 AM) AEN: non dual and emptiness?
(11:44 AM) Thusness: actually i told u is anatta.
(11:44 AM) AEN: oic
(11:44 AM) Thusness: so when u see a person is still in "I AMness", do u talk about spontaneous arising?
(11:45 AM) AEN: no
(11:45 AM) Thusness: why?
(11:45 AM) AEN: bcos it will be misunderstood rite
(11:45 AM) Thusness: in what sense?
(11:45 AM) AEN: more like things automatically entering and leaving awareness but awareness just remain
(11:46 AM) Thusness: because this experience occurs in every phase.
(11:46 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:46 AM) Thusness: therefore everyone will think that he gets it.
(11:47 AM) Thusness: even now, all things are spontaneously perfected, does it mean that u get it?
(11:47 AM) AEN: no
(11:47 AM) Thusness: all ignorance and wisdom are spontaneously manifested even now.
(11:47 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:48 AM) Thusness: so what does spontaneous arising mean?
(11:48 AM) Thusness: and why it is at the last of the insight?
(11:49 AM) AEN: spontaneous arising is everything manifesting on its own accord due to conditions?
(11:49 AM) Thusness: no
(11:50 AM) Thusness: why only after the direct experience and maturing of anatta and emptiness insight?
(11:51 AM) AEN: not sure
(11:52 AM) Thusness: because it is referring to anatta and emptiness are always spontaneously manifested
(11:52 AM) Thusness: whatever arises are always non-dual luminosity and emptiness
(11:53 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:53 AM) Thusness: a practitioner will at the last phase come to this.
(11:54 AM) Thusness: because during the journey of practice, he will always want to grasp or sustain these 2 experiences.
(11:54 AM) Thusness: but if we do not have direct and mature insight of anatta and emptiness, how are we to know?
for anatta and emptiness are always manifesting yet we do not see.
(11:55 AM) Thusness: Therefore the first step is thorough seeing
if u do not know anatta and how is it like, how are u to know?
(11:55 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:55 AM) Thusness: if u do not know emptiness and there is no direct experience of emptiness, how do u know?
(11:56 AM) AEN: so actually spontaneous arising is just the complete and thorough insight of anatta and emptiness rite?
(11:56 AM) AEN: oic
(11:56 AM) Thusness: nope
(11:57 AM) Thusness: yet when emptiness and non-dual luminosity is sufficiently clear, a practitioner can still be 'concentrative' and efforting.
u will realise that later in ur practice.
(11:57 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:57 AM) Thusness: until u really know what is stage 6.
(11:58 AM) Thusness: and that is what i told u about article i said is good.
(11:58 AM) Thusness: stage 6 is the true experience of what is being described.
(11:58 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:59 AM) Thusness: so what is most important in the article?
(11:59 AM) AEN: dependent origination?
(11:59 AM) Thusness: what is it like in actual experience?
(11:59 AM) AEN: non-local, interdependent..?
(12:00 PM) Thusness: what does anatta (non-dual luminosity) and emptiness lead one to?
what is said in the article?
(12:01 PM) AEN: empty of a self? everything reflects everything else? i dunno :P
(12:01 PM) Thusness: because u do have real experience, u cannot understand the essence.
(12:01 PM) AEN: oic..
phil is stage 6 now rite
(12:02 PM) Thusness: that is why u r unable to see and missed out the importance of it.
(12:02 PM) AEN: oic
(12:02 PM) Thusness: i mean that vedanta and buddhism comparison article lah
(12:02 PM) Thusness: dunno what rinpoche
(12:02 PM) AEN: orhh
(12:03 PM) Thusness: like the post i wrote to jonls, many will not understand
but ppl like tony parsons will. :)
and hopefully jonls knows what i meant.
(12:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:04 PM) Thusness: so what is most important in that article?
(12:04 PM) Thusness is now Online
(12:07 PM) Thusness: i do not want u to have knowledge regarding who is right or wrong and all those comments and challenges made to other religions and traditions.
I never want u to get into that.
(12:08 PM) AEN: finding back the link :P
(12:08 PM) Thusness: i am only interested in opening up ur wisdom of what is the truth of Awareness and directly point to it.
(12:09 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:10 PM) AEN: the article talks about the unfindability of all phenomena as the ultimate truth?
(12:10 PM) Thusness: read stage 6.
and my comments
all the points are inside but it is difficult to see.
(12:11 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:11 PM) AEN: ya he talked about advaita seeing phenomena as illusion but brahman as ultimately real
so its like escaping maya and seeking the mirror?
but buddhism is in seeing the nature of all phenomena... as empty
(12:11 PM) AEN: no ultimate brahman apart from phenomena? its just realising the true nature of all phenomena
(12:12 PM) Thusness: nope
(12:13 PM) Thusness: because we do not know, we walk the wrong path, practice the wrong way and have the wrong understanding.
(12:13 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:14 PM) AEN: the maya is our buddha nature?
(12:15 PM) Thusness: what does that mean?
(12:15 PM) AEN: there is no escape from maya and no background reality to seek? its a matter of realising the nature of maya
(12:15 PM) Thusness: so what does that mean?
(12:16 PM) AEN: no efforting, spontaneous perfection?
everything is already empty and non dual
(12:16 PM) Thusness: no no
i did not talk about spontaneous arising
(12:17 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:18 PM) AEN: i dunnu :P
(12:19 PM) Thusness: This is because u r seeing from the angle of what is being taught and not what is being actually experienced.
therefore there is no true seeing.
(12:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:20 PM) Thusness: what u see is DO, emptiness and non-dual, ur mind is therefore trapped.
(12:20 PM) Thusness: This is how our mind is trapped and prevents the seeing.
(12:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:20 PM) Thusness: when we are trapped in non-dual, we can't see emptiness.
(12:21 PM) Thusness: even it is clearly mentioned, it can't be seen.
(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:22 PM) AEN: so what does that mean? :P
(12:23 PM) Thusness: reality is like an illusion.
but not an illusion.
it is like a dream
but not a dream.
(12:24 PM) Thusness: Everything is a magical display.
And everything is mind. :)
(12:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:24 PM) Thusness: What does that mean?
(12:25 PM) Thusness: The mind is always wrongly understood.
from "I AM" to non-dual experience.
(12:25 PM) Thusness: We cannot understand the truth of this mind therefore we can't see mind.
(12:26 PM) Thusness: just like u can't see the essence of the article.
(12:26 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:26 PM) Thusness: we have a pre-conception.
Everything is mind.
(12:26 PM) Thusness: And Everything is like a magical display
that is why i said there is no mirror, there is only reflection.
the key is to know the nature of mind.
(12:27 PM) Thusness: to see that everything is reflection, transience
(12:28 PM) Thusness: Everything is Mind is what that must be derived from anatta and emptiness.
(12:28 PM) Thusness: but we do not know what "everything" is and what mind is.
(12:28 PM) Thusness: therefore we cannot 'see' and cannot experience.
we cannot see the essence of it.
(12:29 PM) Thusness: so anatta and emptiness are taught.
(12:29 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:29 PM) Thusness: what is Everything?
it is like magical display, like an illusion.
but it is not an illusion.
(12:29 PM) Thusness: like a dream but not a dream which many misunderstood.
(12:31 PM) Thusness: therefore when we experience sounds, thoughts, see colors, forms, dimension and shapes...all is empty
like an illusion.
like the 'redness' of a flower
(12:31 PM) Thusness: like the 'selfness'
like the 'hereness'
like the 'nowness'
yet empty, nothing real
(12:32 PM) Thusness: if u can't totally see that pristineness, that non-dual, that luminosity
(12:32 PM) Thusness: and see only emptiness, u r mistaken
(12:33 PM) Thusness: the 'redness', the 'nowness', the 'hardness', the coldness, all are as luminous, as clear, as vivid
we must fully experience it
(12:34 PM) Thusness: yet they are not real, nothing concrete, no solidity, nothing substantial, nothing graspable, no findable
(12:34 PM) Thusness: thus non-dual luminosity and emptiness
(12:35 PM) Thusness: we see this union, in all transience
(12:35 PM) Thusness: in feelings
(12:35 PM) Thusness: in hardness, coldness
in the sound of chirping bird
all experience are like that
(12:36 PM) Thusness: empty yet luminous
then we realise that it is the same as mind
it is mind
(12:36 PM) Thusness: if we din see these 2 nature of mind thoroughly
we can't see
(12:36 PM) Thusness: we distant
because of its emptiness nature, the manifold, we cannot know what mind is
(12:37 PM) Thusness: therefore the ground is taught, the view is taught
(12:37 PM) Thusness: empty yet non-dual luminosity
so that u can see and experience directly that the transience are mind
(12:38 PM) Thusness: yet there is no self nature
(12:38 PM) AEN: think so
(12:38 PM) Thusness: then u experience what is one taste
(12:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:38 PM) Thusness: Because we do not know what mind is, we cannot experience mind.
we do not know
that is why insight is important
(12:39 PM) Thusness: however if u do not know what is non-dual luminosity and emptiness, how is a practitioner going to experience mind everywhere
and know that whatever arises is mind?
(12:40 PM) Thusness: therefore first anatta (non-dual luminosity), then emptiness, then spontaneous arising
(12:40 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:41 PM) Thusness: do u understand what i mean?
(12:41 PM) AEN: ya i tink so
(12:42 PM) Thusness: read the article
(12:44 PM) AEN: ok