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Dearly beloved! I have a topic I wish to put towards discussion here!
Noticing my practice suffers from my constant procrastination, I decided to start frequenting a temple, which in my case turned out to be a Jōdoshū temple, a Japanese school of Mahayana, since I speak Japanese and have known the Priest for over a decade.
Situation is, though, that it seems most Mahayana practice, at least within this school, focuses WAY more in morality and sutra intonation with the specific intent of going to the Pure Land when you die, and THEN dedicating yourself towards liberation, for Amithaba's path is the one towards the liberation of all souls, and that is to be done in the Pure Land. 
This bothers me a little, because it feels quite like the idea of "giving up liberation/moksha/nibbhana because I've been told it takes many lives" even though one has no way of knowing on which live oneself is right now, and giving up because it "feels like the first one". In one specific video I watched, the Japanese monk used the word "foolish" to describe the search for Satori, favouring instead the repetition of "NAMUAMIDABUTSU" with the intent of going to the pure land when you die.
This, to me, recalls my time as a Catholic, where everyone around me viewed Jesus as someone "bigger than the rest of us", consequently giving up right away on the concept of being "Jesus like" and not evolving much in the spiritual path.
What are your opinions on the topic? Appreciate your time reading up to here!
36 Comments
Aayush Jain
I’ve
 recently begun connecting with Amitabha Buddha and practices 
surrounding being reborn in his pure land. For me, this doesn’t 
necessarily mean being reborn in a realm after death that is more 
conducive to enlightenment, but using Sukhavati as an imaginative 
exercise to see that the reality we currently find ourselves in is, in 
fact, already a pure land. This is connected with the idea of pure 
vision in Vajrayana.
Soh Wei Yu  also mentioned his baseline experience as being similar to descriptions of Amitabha’s pure land in a recent post:
This
 is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and 
perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always 
experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any 
kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the 
world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a 
living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions, where every color, 
sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the 
very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling 
brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened
 intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding 
sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and 
experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and 
naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a 
fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest 
depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first 
time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, 
joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of 
life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses 
any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven 
made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless 
directness without separation, where life and the universe is 
experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying 
presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center
 and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is 
actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe 
appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful 
presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no 
more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s 
heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in 
ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always 
participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing
 and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much 
the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing 
outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and 
infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in
 all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were 
cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has
 closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his 
cavern. - William Blake) 
You
 know all the Mahayana Sutras (e.g. Vimalakirti Sutra), old Zen talks 
about seeing this very earth as pure land and all the Vajrayana talks 
about the point of tantra as the pure vision of seeing this very world, 
body, speech and mind in its primordial unfabricated purity as the 
Buddha field, palace, mandala, mantra and deity? Now you truly get it, 
you realise everything is really just like that when experienced in its 
primordial purity and perfection, and that the old sages have not been 
exaggerating at all. It is as much a literal and precise description of 
the state of consciousness as it is a metaphor. As I told John Tan 
before, Amitabha Sutra’s description of pure land resembles my living 
experience here and now. “To me it just means anatta. When what’s seen, 
tasted, touched, smelled are in clean purity, everywhere is pure land.” -
 John Tan, 2019. "If one is free from background self, all 
manifestations appear in clean purity in taste. Impurities from what I 
know come from mental constructions." – John Tan, 2020
Felipe Utiyama
Author
Aayush Jain Thank you so much for the insights!
I
 had previously decided to take a similar stance towards the religion; 
my only worry was that THIS view of the Mahayana practice seems like 
something the priests keep to themselves, favouring the narrative as I 
described above. I intend on practicing with the intent of furthering 
myself in the path of realisation, and it already seems my "eagerness" 
in talking of such is not so much appreciated in this "Sangha" I'm 
entering now...
Aayush Jain
Felipe Utiyama
 I see, could be different levels of views that are reserved for 
practitioners of with sufficient experience. But Garchen Rinpoche, in a 
recent Amitabha empowerment ,made it clear that both views are true 
simultaneously. By connecting with Amitabha and praying to be reborn in 
his pure land, we are generating merit to be reborn in Sukhavati at the 
relative level. But at the ultimate level, we should see that all 
sentient beings are Amitabha and that our existence is already a pure 
land. Perhaps other traditions aren't so vocal about the 'ultimate' 
view, except for more advanced practitioners.
Felipe Utiyama
Author
Definitely seems that way!
I'm
 lucky enough to have had already been through first awakening, so there
 was this sense of "everyone is already Buddha" in me from the 
beginning. Liberation is not "going anywhere", it's staying right here 
and now, without any filters, leaning into the portals. 
I
 just hope I don't have to keep those opinions to myself, or to when the
 Priests give me their attention. Let's see what happens, no matter 
what, 'namuamidabu'! Hahahah
Aayush Jain
Rob
 Burbea also has some interesting talks on the imaginal and connecting 
with divinities to deepen our experience of the path. This one focuses 
on practices relating to Amitabha Buddha.
I
 realized this doesn’t directly address your question on Pure Land 
practitioners saying that devotion can serve as a replacement for 
insight oriented practices, but hope it helps anyways.

DHARMASEED.ORG
Dharma Seed - Between Ikon and Eidos: Image & Hermeneutics in Meditation (Part 6 - Amitabha Buddha)
Felipe Utiyama
Author
Aayush Jain
 I consider myself a Pantheist (every religion, including the lack 
thereof, is a valid and "true" way for liberation), so Deities are not 
only tolerated by me, but I'd even say 'favoured'. I'm very much into 
chaos magick and Advaita Vedanta, so no problems with THAT. My concern 
is not finding the support to further my Vipassana practice, for one.
Angelo Grr
Admin
I don’t see anything wrong with these types of practices if you authentically resonate with them. Authenticity is key. 
In
 addition to what I said above you have every right to pursue kensho 
with or without any one’s permission, be they Buddhist or not. 
I
 have to say to assert that it is wrong or a waste of time to pursue 
kensho is not in line with what Buddha/Dogen/etc etc  intended. Quite 
the opposite in my not so humble opinion. Take that as you will  .
.
 .
.Also even if you procrastinate etc that does not preclude kensho  .
 It’s more a matter of whether you are willing to inquire with sincerity
 (not about what anyone else tells you it’s important to inquire about, 
rather what is most fundamentally important to you), and what you are 
willing to let go of.
.
 It’s more a matter of whether you are willing to inquire with sincerity
 (not about what anyone else tells you it’s important to inquire about, 
rather what is most fundamentally important to you), and what you are 
willing to let go of.
 .
 It’s more a matter of whether you are willing to inquire with sincerity
 (not about what anyone else tells you it’s important to inquire about, 
rather what is most fundamentally important to you), and what you are 
willing to let go of.
.
 It’s more a matter of whether you are willing to inquire with sincerity
 (not about what anyone else tells you it’s important to inquire about, 
rather what is most fundamentally important to you), and what you are 
willing to let go of.Felipe Utiyama
Author
I
 have had a talk with the temple's Priest before being called in to 
practice, and I spared no words about my personal experience. Drug use, 
first awakening happening WHILE on entheogens, etcetera, and he just 
made questions such as "how old were you when this/that happened", and 
in the end simply said "Wow, I imagine you're quite unable to talk about
 this to a regular person, right?", which was absolutely relieving to 
me. He seems to understand my quest, and allowed me to practice with 
them, but I do feel like even whilst I'm entering a new Sangha, the TRUE
 number of people I'll be able to talk with will be about three or four.
 Nevertheless, it's progress, makes me get out of my house and do 
something that seems to put me in more direct contact with the Dharma.
John Tan
Angelo Grr I agree with what u said.
Infact I never talk about zen or anatta to my family members ;
 contrary I encourage my parents to chant Amitabha and visualize 
pureland according to what their teachers taught them.  It is a 
dedicated daily practice for my parents.  These practices are much more 
skillfull, intuitive and beneficial for them imo.  My dad has very 
fruitful experiences and he even has dreams of clarity of pureland and 
trigger many valuable insights, he just discussed with me one of his 
experience and insight yesterday
;
 contrary I encourage my parents to chant Amitabha and visualize 
pureland according to what their teachers taught them.  It is a 
dedicated daily practice for my parents.  These practices are much more 
skillfull, intuitive and beneficial for them imo.  My dad has very 
fruitful experiences and he even has dreams of clarity of pureland and 
trigger many valuable insights, he just discussed with me one of his 
experience and insight yesterday .
. 
 ;
 contrary I encourage my parents to chant Amitabha and visualize 
pureland according to what their teachers taught them.  It is a 
dedicated daily practice for my parents.  These practices are much more 
skillfull, intuitive and beneficial for them imo.  My dad has very 
fruitful experiences and he even has dreams of clarity of pureland and 
trigger many valuable insights, he just discussed with me one of his 
experience and insight yesterday
;
 contrary I encourage my parents to chant Amitabha and visualize 
pureland according to what their teachers taught them.  It is a 
dedicated daily practice for my parents.  These practices are much more 
skillfull, intuitive and beneficial for them imo.  My dad has very 
fruitful experiences and he even has dreams of clarity of pureland and 
trigger many valuable insights, he just discussed with me one of his 
experience and insight yesterday .
. I
 know many great zen teachers like Ban Zhan, Han Shan and Tien Tai 
Chih-I also encourage  pureland practice.  Even the late zen master 
Sheng Yen also spoke positively of pureland practices.  In China, it is 
not uncommon to see chan and pureland dual practices 禅净双修 but Japan I m 
not sure, never heard of any.
John Tan
Yeah.
  My dad's discipline is superb.  At the age of 80, he still want to 
challenge me certain yoga poses that is even quite challenging for 
youngsters. He feared everyone in the family but he makes effort to discipline everyday and work on the pose.
  He feared everyone in the family but he makes effort to discipline everyday and work on the pose. 

 He feared everyone in the family but he makes effort to discipline everyday and work on the pose.
  He feared everyone in the family but he makes effort to discipline everyday and work on the pose. 

Mr./Ms. JJ
I personally wouldn't stick around something that doesn't resonate with me.
I
 also don't buy their ideas. If there are no other temples near you, you
 can always look for online groups or create your own meditation group.
Also
 I had this cheeky thought: you are procrastinating your practice and 
now you found a place that procrastinates it till death 
 (don't take this comment too seriously)
 (don't take this comment too seriously)

 (don't take this comment too seriously)
 (don't take this comment too seriously)Felipe Utiyama
Author
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yea,
 I'm not necessarily going to expect the same insightful conversations I
 can have around HERE, but I seem to have become stuck in a loop of 
thinking about insight and never really putting myself in any situation 
where I could really concentrate and progress; but I feel comfortable 
enough with my 'universalist' interpretation of the sutras to have quite
 a nice time doing it at the ceremonies. As long as I have a Sangha such
 as this one in here, I can also have some progress with theirs.
Mr./Ms. JJ
Honestly, I'd check out how you can stop the procrastination. IMO the best way is to build a habit around meditation.
The
 way I do it is to stack it onto another habit that I do daily. In this 
case it's waking up. So every time I wake up I meditate. It could be 
brushing teeth as well. It's just important that you know that every 
time you do x you will do y. 
I'd
 also start with something small like 10 or 15 min of guided meditation.
 It's more important to build the habit first before trying to increase 
the time.
And
 of course, check in with yourself what's really motivating you to do 
this. That can help to see how you can strengthen the motivation so you 
are more likely to follow through when things are a bit tough.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
When you awaken in pure land, Amitabha will tell you to come back and help people. Better to awaken here and help people.
Traktung Rinpoche:
Between
 that death and this birth there was no fracture in the continuity of 
awareness. Between the two was a moment, a brief moment, spent at Tsog 
in the pure land of Zangdokpalri. Translucence and joy permeated 
everything and then Guru Rinpoche told me to return to this place, this 
time, this circumstance. I was not overjoyed (laughter) and what 
followed was the conversation which became the Dakini Night Poem.
In
 this life my first conscious feeling, for it was long before the brain 
had acquired language, was “How do I return to that realm of wonder?” 
This was like a thorn in my heart, a Fisher King Wound, that plagued me 
throughout my life and pushed me to discover the answer.
It
 was only in resolving the duality of awareness appearance into the 
singularity of AwarenessAppearance …. only in coming to live in the 
knowing that everything, moment by moment is embraced by and resolves in
 timeless awareness – the luminous divinity that is Zangdokpalri that 
this ache was removed.
That
 brief, all to brief, moment in Zangdokpalri was 100 years here and then
 suddenly, all to suddenly, with a whoosh and whirling this life with 
its encroaching veils of forgetting. Suddenly 9 pounds 14 ounces of 
flesh and hospital lights. This life has been a game of concealing 
revealing ….. the movement of a chess piece on the game board. To be a 
chess piece in the hand of Guru Rinpoche is the greatest of joys – 
though I did not think so at the moment of birth. – t.k., from A Moments
 Pause ...interviews forming a autobiography
…

YOUTUBE.COM
Dakini Night Poem
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
I
 think Greg Goode who wrote books on Advaita and then Madhyamaka and has
 good insights on these, also went into pure land or jodo shinshu.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
So you can do both practices.
“Greg
 is a well-known innovator for having combined the ancient “direct-path”
 method of self-inquiry with modern electronic media. Nondual inquiry 
includes the powerful teachings of Advaita Vedanta and Mahayana 
Buddhism. Greg studied Advaita Vedanta through the Chinmaya Mission, Sri
 Atmananda, Jean Klein, and Francis Lucille. He studied the Mahayana 
teachings of Pure Land Buddhism through Jodo-Shinshu, and studied 
Chinese Middle-Way Buddhism through the lineage of the pre-eminent 
scholar of Chinese Buddhism, Master Yin-Shun of Taiwan, P.R.C., author 
of The Way to Buddhahood.”
Felipe Utiyama
Author
Thank you very much for the references!
It's quite interesting to see this duality in the Mahayana teachings between the laypeople and the monks!
Aditya Prasad
One
 thing I've always wondered about chanting mantras in general: they 
often say it's about how many times you say them, but for me it feels 
better to do one really authentically than 100 halfheartedly. Is there a
 consensus view on this? Is one suppose… 
See more
Felipe Utiyama
Author
I
 personally prefer voice chanting over internal chanting right now, even
 though the latter is said to be better; in regards to the number, I 
like the feeling of doing it "ad infinitum", because there's a moment 
where the feeling of being "the one chanting the chant" goes away and 
there's only non-dual"chanting chanting the chanting".
Aayush Jain
I've
 heard Garchen Rinpoche say many times that quantity doesn't matter if 
there is no meaning or devotion behind it, and that counting mantras for
 the sake of counting is missing the point. That being said, he 
encourages people to complete the Ngondro accumulations, and has 
retreats where participants are encouraged to actively keep track of 
recitations. My interpretation is that counting is important, only in so
 far as it enables a deeper connection to the practice, and makes one 
more likely to chant authentically later on. Personally, I count using a
 mala during formal practice sessions, but don't when I decide to chant 
spontaneously during the day.
Felipe Utiyama
Author
As
 with any set of "rules" in the path, I understand the counting as just a
 way of creating "muscle memory", a means of more reliably getting to 
the point where you must abandon everything, training/counting included,
 to achieve liberation.
Buddhism's purpose, in the end, is to burn even the Buddha, is it not?
Aayush Jain
Also,
 it's hard for us as deluded sentient beings to judge what is an 
authentic recitation and what is driven by impure intent. I remember I 
would occasionally chant Mani mantras a few years ago when I was in a 
pretty negative headspace and it seemed like they didn't really do 
anything. But earlier this year, I randomly started feeling a strong 
devotion to the path, particularly Vajrayana, which I feel is because of
 the seeds I planted back when I wasn't as serious about the practice. 
So that's another super subjective take, I guess.
Aditya Prasad
Aayush Jain
 This is very interesting. I feel I have a good sense of when I am being
 authentic and when I am not. Because I was raised in the Advaita 
tradition, the felt sense of being authentic I describe as like being in
 the presence of God (or united with Him). The more authentic, the more 
the tears flow lol. So maybe this is a good indication. Of course, it's 
also possible that I'm still overlooking something.
Aditya Prasad
Angelo Grr
 In your recent video where you talk about "orienting toward the living 
truth," the above is how that translates for me. I imagine it's related?
Felipe Utiyama
Author
Amazing example there!
Sometimes
 when I pray the rosary with my Catholic grandmother I feel a lot of 
energy (maybe that's what some schools call "piti") and tears flow 
naturally. It's a state I've been a handful of times in my life, and I 
also associat… 
See more
Aayush Jain
Ah,
 I see. I’ve also heard Malcolm mention that you can use mantras to 
raise practice to the level of Dharmata, to aid in Dzogchen practice. So
 they can be chanted while connecting with insights, which I guess is 
one way to tell if the practice is authentic.
But
 the more I learn about and practice mantras the more vast a subject 
they seem! No wonder the ancient Indians felt it could be an entire 
science! And of course there are so many different practices involving 
mantras, so I imagine there is no one size fits all answer. I think Nafis Rahman  posted some interesting resources about mantras a while back, I’ll see if I can dig them up when I get a chance.
Aditya Prasad
Felipe Utiyama
 Given the above, I wonder if it's worthwhile to recite the nembutsu 
while holding the intention for Amitabha to help awaken you rather than 
to be reborn in his pure land. I imagine he'd sort of have to oblige, 
being a buddha and all. And even if it feels a little weird to go 
against the intention of the temple, I have a hard time that bodhicitta 
is ever unethical. Not that I know anything.
Felipe Utiyama
Author
Good sir, you seem to always have some very insightful comments!
I
 take an open stance about Nenbutsu. It is said one should 'abandon 
oneself in Amitabha', so I do it; the difference is that it seems most 
people surrender in faith/hope of a pure land that comes after death, 
and I focus on surrendering the feeling inside me that "there is 
something to be done". For me, that's a very honest way to still 'seek 
salvation', whilst nevertheless undestanding that the Pure Land is HERE 
AND NOW, and asking for Amitabha to 'save me' by allowing me to see and 
feel it, unfiltered.
Felipe Utiyama
Author
Also,
 I feel that, just like in case of emergency depressurisation in an 
airplane, the most logical way of "liberating every living being" would 
be to liberate oneself first, no?
Feels weird to say one should die first and then start worrying about the oxygen masks...
Mr./Ms. AS
Michael Hernandez - you have some experience with Pure Land, yeah?
 
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We should always hv ' Plan B ' . If our effort for awakening nvr materialize in this lifetime , then the merits frm Pureland practice will at least take us into favourable condition and
'place' which will be conductive for progress ....
If we never cultivate this type of merit specifically , then it is the karmic stream which will determine our future rebirth ...
Karmic tendencies are deep and hard to break ; it is better to underestimate our strength rather than overestimate it , for the latter will take us into egoistic delusion of complacency ...
Rather than having ' Plan B ' as some sort of backup or secondary alternative , it should be our primary practice !
When merits are sufficient , favourable conditions and environment will be present to assist us in this journey... and being born in ' Pure Land ' is such a way of having the conditions to progress .
This human realm is never a favourable place for progress ; unless we compare it with less evolved and lower realm ....