Soh

Also See: Meaning of Stream-Entry


Anattā at Stream-Entry vs. Non-Buddhist “No-self”

The understanding of anattā (no-self) for a stream-enterer (sotāpanna) is not the same as non-Buddhist versions of “no-self” that rest only on a seamless nondual experience, that reify some luminous substrate or non-dual awareness, or that posit a luminous matter and an external world. For example, some modern teachings like Actual Freedom may be based on concepts (and a partial experience and insight of no-self) such as an inherently existing, luminous physical matter, or on the direct and gapless experience of non-duality alone.


In the early discourses, stream-entry is precipitated by a direct realization of dependent origination, encompassing both arising and cessation—the Buddha’s “this/that conditionality” (idappaccayatā). This is the noble method that one “rightly sees and penetrates,” as expressed in AN 10.92:


“When this is, that is; from the arising of this, that arises; when this isn’t, that isn’t; from the cessation of this, that ceases.”

Source: AN 10.92, SuttaCentral


John Tan shared before: "Anatta allows recognition of appearances as one's radiance.  But that is still not anatta proper without recognition of dependent arising.


So one can realize anatta on the aspect of the agency being a conventional construct that does not exist in the "experiencer experiencing" or "hearer hearing sound" or "seer seeing scenery" ...etc but still not realize dependent arising and it's implication and vice versa.

So anatta,
dependent arising and emptiness,
then both.

Then dependent arising and the relationship of nominal constructs and causal efficacy.

Then dependent arising and spontaneous presence.

And natural perfection.

All these must be clear.", "It [Soh: an initial breakthrough to certain aspects of no-self but not the definitive wisdom of selflessness taught by Buddha] can also be no self being resolved into monism.

It can also be selflessness and essencelessness yet have no insight that dependent arising is free from 8 extremes."

...

“There are two [aspects of dependent origination], general (non-afflictive) and specific (afflictive) D.O. [dependent origination]. Both are enlightened views. Means the mind suddenly stops seeing self and he must drop self/Essence view.” - John Tan, 2015

“When the mind divides and see separation, D.O. and emptiness is the excellent tool to de-construct essence and triggers the insight of anatta and emptiness. So it is the enlightened view.” – John Tan, 2020

"Seeing afflictive Dependent Origination is enlightened view because one sees Dependent Origination. There is no [insight into] afflictive Dependent Origination for sentient beings, there is [the conceiving of a] Self/self... they do not see Dependent Origination." - John Tan, 2014

“John Tan: Because there is mind, if there is no mind, what happened?

Soh: Just activities, thoughts, scenery, sounds.

John Tan: What is the sense of self in anatta?

Soh: The activity of grasping.

John Tan: Very good and well said.

The anatta insight not only sees through background but directly perceives dependent origination, both afflictive and non-afflictive. Self is that afflictive dependent origination that arises from ignorance. It is that formation. The general dependent origination becomes the effortless spontaneous presence when ignorance is not in action. Both are directly experienced in real-time. So with anatta insight, no-self is authenticated. Afflictive D.O. chain is authenticated, general D.O. is authenticated, the purpose of vipassana is authenticated from moment to moment in real-time. What doubt is there?” - John Tan, 2019

Here, the Buddha says what the fruit of stream entry entails:

“Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. [1] One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. [2] One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.

"These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry."
AN 6.97

The Buddha also taught, 

"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present."

— SN 12.20

"[26/12/15, 10:29:01 AM] John Tan: A sudden non-dual realisation of the relationship between mind and phenomena.  An intense non-dual realisation and experience due to certain koan...is he a zen practitioner?
[26/12/15, 10:32:32 AM] John Tan: There is a difference between no-self of Advaita and no-self of Buddhism.  The latter must lead to the realisation of dependent arising.
[26/12/15, 10:33:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. He lives in Thailand and talks with monks so I thought he could be Theravada but I'm not sure
[26/12/15, 10:33:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: So his is like advaita no self?
[26/12/15, 10:37:53 AM] John Tan: Ai Yoh...Not like Advaita...his descriptions of his experiences can only be said to be like a non-dual experience triggered by a realisation of no-self.  How it develops will depends on his conditions.
[26/12/15, 10:39:36 AM] John Tan: Like phase 4, my experience is fully non-dual and intense but does not lead to realisation and importance of DO [Dependent Origination].
[26/12/15, 10:39:47 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[26/12/15, 10:40:13 AM] Soh Wei Yu: So his next step is to contemplate on d.o?
[26/12/15, 10:40:57 AM] John Tan: How does he sees DO.
[26/12/15, 10:43:07 AM] John Tan: there are 2, general (non-afflictive) and specific DO (afflictive).  Both are enlightened views.  Means the mind suddenly stops seeing self and he must drop self/Essence view.
[26/12/15, 10:44:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. Should I ask him
[26/12/15, 10:45:20 AM] John Tan: You can ask him how he understands DO."

Kyle Dixon (Krodha) wrote before:

“There are different types of spiritual awakening, and liberation is even defined differently in different religions and systems. The point is that liberation as defined by the buddhadharma is only available to those who engage in the methodologies of the buddhadharma in accordance with right view and so on. Principally dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda], which is an exclusively Buddhist view.

Like Buddhapālita states:

Because we [Buddhists], in the correct way, see the nonexistence of the self existence of things which appear because the sun of dependent origination arose, because of that, because we see the truth, liberation can be accepted only for us.”


What the “Stream” Is

The Buddha explicitly identifies the stream as the Noble Eightfold Path. Entering it is not merely adopting a view; it’s the onset of the path-process itself (magga → phala). By seeing the dependent nature of phenomena, the disciple enters this stream that leads to full liberation.

Trigger and Effect: The Arising of the Dhamma-Eye That Sees Dependent Origination

At the moment of direct realization of dependent origination, the “Dhamma-eye” arises. This insight into [dependent] origination-and-cessation cuts the first three fetters—self-identity view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicchā), and grasping at rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāsa). This is how the Nikāyas mark stream-entry.


This Dhamma-eye is epitomized in the Buddha's First Discourse, where the Venerable Kondañña had his breakthrough:


“And while this discourse was being spoken, there arose in the Venerable Kondañña the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.””

Source: SN 56.11, SuttaCentral


This same core insight led to the conversion of the future chief disciple, Sāriputta. The Venerable Assaji first gave this brief exposition of the Dhamma:


Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause & their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative.


The text then describes the immediate result as Sāriputta listened:


Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."


Source: Vinaya, Mahavagga, 1.23.1-10, Access to Insight


Direct Insight into the Twelve Links

In another sutta, it details how a stream-entrant has direct insight into the twelve links of dependent origination:


"I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'"


Source: SN 12.68, Access to Insight


How the Supportive “Factors” Fit

The canon speaks of two complementary four-fold sets related to this attainment:


  • Supportive conditions leading to stream-entry: associating with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, appropriate attention, and practicing in accord with the Dhamma. These are often cultivated before the breakthrough.
  • Endowments possessed by a stream-winner: verified confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha, and possessing the virtues dear to the noble ones—together with the rightly seen noble method (idappaccayatā). These are present with stream-entry, not as mere book-learning.

Direct Realization vs. Conceptual Analysis

The texts contrast this direct, personal knowledge with learning through inference, tradition, or reasoning by analogy. Stream-entry depends on directly seeing this process of arising and ceasing, not merely analyzing it conceptually.

Seeing the Goal vs. Completing the Work

This breakthrough doesn’t finish the path. Although the stream-enterer directly realizes the Dependent Origination of the twelve links, they have not yet brought about the cessation of that entire chain—from ignorance up to becoming, birth, aging, and death.


The Nikāyas compare this to seeing water in a desert well without yet being able to touch it. One knows the goal with certainty, but the effluents (āsava) are not fully ended until arahantship. The same bhikkhu in SN 12.68 explains his situation with this powerful analogy: 💧


"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."


Source: SN 12.68, Access to Insight


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