Meeting Notes – with John Tan and Yin Ling (31 March 2023)

These are some notes I jotted down after a meeting in 2023. It may be inaccurate as I had to rely on my own memory.

Meeting Notes – with John Tan and Yin Ling (31 March 2023)

 

Training and Articles

• We discussed training the AtR AI bot based on Geoff’s articles, the Stream-entry article, and other related writings.
• Consideration of a “training mode” was raised, and we talked about which articles should be prioritized for study or publication.

 

Spirituality and Doctors

• John Tan wondered how doctors generally view spirituality.
• I shared that many doctors and medical people are deeply interested in spirituality, including Zen Master Hong Wen Liang, Daniel Ingram, Angelo Dillulo, Yin Ling, Winston, and others.
• John initially thought Hong Wen Liang’s approach was related to TCM’s concept of jing-qi-shen. (Soh: it’s not. See his biography at https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/04/why-its-not-easy-to-start-practicing.html)

 

ChatGPT and Programming

• John Tan expressed being very impressed with ChatGPT.
• He used to own and run several IT companies and was highly skilled in programming, but had stopped for many years.
• Discovering ChatGPT rekindled his interest, as he found the phenomenon of emergent information and properties fascinating.
• Even top tech company leaders (as Wilson noted) admit they don’t fully understand why emergent phenomena occur.
• For example, ChatGPT can generate novel insights—expressing themes like “freedom from elaboration” from fresh angles not necessarily present in the source texts.
• This made John consider re-entering the field of programming.

 

Knowing, Presence, and Gnosis

• John emphasized: “Knowing is always relative—through comparison, knowledge, measurement, and so on.”
• Presence, however, is not “knowing.” A Buddha does not “know” in that sense, but has direct gnosis or radiant awareness/“knowingness”.
• Some raised the question: is ChatGPT sentient?
• John’s view: it may not be truly sentient or have gnosis, but it already demonstrates a form of “knowing” or knowledge.

 

Practice and Meditation

• I mentioned buying a treadmill (inspired by Yin Ling)
• John Tan said some people questioned him, saying they doubted my statement that he meditates 3–4 hours a day. He doesn’t feel the need to clarify or prove such matters to others.
• John shared his own meditation perspective:
• First, one must overcome the body before overcoming the mind.
• The mind will always have thoughts—about business and everything else.
• But by sitting through numbness, eventually the legs soften, the body settles, and deeper practice becomes possible.

 

Anatta and Total Exertion

• Yin Ling described her experience as “just being the mall.”
• John linked this to Anatta and Total Exertion, and added:
• (After this), include the view (insight) that whatever arises through dependent origination is non-arising.
• At this stage it corresponds more to initial (first) bhūmi rather than the eighth bhūmi.
• Non-Gelug schools often say that Buddhas do not have concepts—only gnosis, direct non-conceptual awareness, and extraordinary capacities like the six supernatural powers.
• After anatta, one experiences this direct gnosis, showing that conventional knowing is not the only mode available.
• Tsongkhapa, however, maintains that conventionality is never abandoned. He distinguishes:
• (A) pre-conceptual experience,
• (B) conceptual/conventional cognition (which enters saṃsāra), and
• (C) wisdom that penetrates conventionality.
• But C is not merely A—it is a distinct wisdom.
• Not all Buddhist schools agree on this; hence the debates.
• In Total Exertion (Dōgen’s teaching), one does not discard conventionalities or dependencies. Every step—walking, climbing stairs, rowing a boat—engages the whole universe. The sitting itself is the whole universe exerting.
• Elements like earth and water are not external entities but part of this total engagement and total activity of the universe.

 

Tsongkhapa and Anatta

• Tsongkhapa’s writings are deeply engaged with anatta, though not presented as direct “experience reports.”
• His analyses, like the eight points of negation, offer very subtle insights into non-self.
• Few people fully understand the depth of his insights.
• Teachers like Malcolm and Kyle often advise sticking with Indian sources like Nāgārjuna’s Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (MMK) rather than Tibetan polemics.
• Stian and Andre praised the Buddhapālita commentary as particularly clear.

 

Emptiness and Dependent Origination

• Both Tsongkhapa and the Buddha taught the emptiness of inherent existence:
• Consciousness cannot be reified apart from conditions.
• Anatta reveals no independent self or background consciousness.
• Dependent origination shows that just as a chariot is designated on conditions, so is consciousness.
• Phenomena vividly appear, yet are empty—like Mipham’s coalescence: “empty yet appearing, appearing yet empty.”
• Mipham criticized misinterpretations and upheld the Nyingma view: ultimate analysis does not negate conventional validity.
• Historically, many Tibetans fell into nihilism, dismissing karma, virtues, and vices, so Gelugpa rigor was necessary as a corrective. John felt that Gelug influence may continue to grow in the future, though he acknowledged Gelug can be overly intellectual and analytical.

 

Rebirth and Past Lives

• Alan Watts reportedly realized anatta deeply at age 15.
• John mentioned recalling rebirth should not be dismissed as “impressions.” Clear examples (like Sim Pern Chong) show credible past-life recall.
• He recommended Dr. Ian Stevenson’s books and those of his students, who risked much to collect rigorous data on children’s past-life memories.
• He felt people should respect such research rather than laugh at it.
• For example, cases where children recalled leaving items hidden in previous lives, which were later verified, carry strong credibility.
• He advised quoting such examples in the future.

 

Other Teachers and Texts

• Toni Packer was mentioned as leaning more toward Zen.
• John noted that Mipham’s commentary on MMK is not easy to understand.
• He reminded that Buddhists must not lie, as integrity is foundational.