Posts
Someone posted this but the post seems to have disappeared before I could approve. Perhaps he deleted it?
"So a nondual teacher that I've followed for a while is claiming that the idea of no-self upheld by this group, Angelo Dilullo, Adyashanti, Fetters 8-10 etc. (dropping away of all identity, no agency, no doership, no inner world, no self reflection) is not supported or taught by Buddhism whatsoever. They claim that this is a recent invention and no different from depersonalization/derealization.
They claim that all of these teachers- Angelo, Adyashanti, John Tan, etc are actually just experiencing depersonalization and derealization. They describe no-self as a "hell realm" and that any teacher promising the end of suffering is misleading and not being genuine about their own experience. They further claim that many of these nondual teachers are secretly in therapy and on meds due to their deep stage realizations.
How would you guys respond to this?"
Soh:
Having read thousands of pages of Buddha's teachings in suttas/sutras and scriptures, I can assure you that anatman, anatta as discussed in AtR is not at all a recent invention but is the core teaching of Buddha right from the very start. Just take for example these articles on AtR which cites many sciptures: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/anatta-not-self-or-no-self_1.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/09/great-resource-of-buddha-teachings.html , and I will happily provide more quotes and citations any time if necessary.
Also, Anatta cannot possibly cause depersonalization. What is depersonalization? Chatgpt: “Depersonalization is a feeling where you feel disconnected from yourself, as if you're watching your life from the outside. It's like when you're in a dream or watching a movie, and your actions or thoughts don't feel like they're your own. People with depersonalization might feel like their body or emotions aren't real, even though they know logically that they are. It’s a way your brain might react to stress or anxiety, like putting up a wall to protect you from feeling overwhelmed.”
If
anyone has the slightest clue what is the anatta discussed in AtR, they
would know that this depersonalization as described above goes 180
degress opposite of anatta realization, because when the
subject-action-object, seer-seeing-seen paradigm is deconstructed, it
can only possibly lead to total gapless intimacy with life and activity
without a hairbreadth's distinction and separation, hence dissociation
is impossible. This cannot be missed right after anatta: "Now the
everything feels ‘Me’ sort of sensation becomes a daily matter and the
bliss of losing oneself completely into scenery, sound, taste is
wonderful. This is different from everything collapsing into a “Single
Oneness” sort of experience but a disperse out into the multiplicity of
whatever arises. Everything feels closer than ‘me’ due to gaplessness." Anyone who doesn't experience this deep bliss and luminosity of anatta arising in and as all senses and entirety of life arising as samadhi absorption even at the very start of the initial breakthrough of anatman is really not speaking about anatta at all.
In fact depersonalization is possible when one is stuck at some dark night possibly in the I AM and impersonality phase (although I have personally not gone through all these issues myself), but not possible when there is proper anatta realization.
In fact depersonalization is possible when one is stuck at some dark night possibly in the I AM and impersonality phase (although I have personally not gone through all these issues myself), but not possible when there is proper anatta realization.
We can take Suzanne Segal's case for example, it's too long so you will have to read her whole story: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/dark-night.html
Also this is a must-read article written by myself for anyone who wishes to understand AtR Anatta and how it differs from mere impersonality or substantialist nondual, and also why anatta makes depersonalization and dissociation impossible: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html
But back to the Suzanne's case, John Tan said it best in January 2007:
"(commenting on some of Suzanne Segal's descriptions) If someone draws a line in the thin air and is able to plant a seed into a lay person’s inmost consciousness that “he can’t go beyond this line”, that lay person will feel that the so called ‘imaginary’ boundary is as solid as a physical wall. The way we are ‘bonded’ to dualistic view of a ‘Self’ is similar. A strong sense of Witnessing Presence without going beyond that "invisible line" is not the experience of “no-self” in Buddhism and therefore I would not call her experience an “insight” into no-self. The negative experiences she had seem more like very strong ‘self/Self’ propensities, it is a form of split, a separation. Staying in no-self is to be fully authenticated by all things and as all things. Fear arises because of this lack of authentication. She sank too deeply into the 'content'. This is the case of "dark nights" where propensities rushed into manifestations. Her attempt to reason herself out will not work. Logical reasoning cannot break that 'bond' and she just couldn't help reacting to it. One way out is to practice and develop the mental habit of "dissolving" every moment before "content" arise. The mental habit of dissolving will become a strength of it own to counter this problem. In true no-self experience, the first aspect is the cognitive mind loses its charm and is replaced with intuitive and direct experience. Only the qualities of our nature are experienced (clarity, radiance, presence and vitality), nothing about symbols, labels and content. Second, the illusionary view of a "Self' on top of manifestation is dissolved; There is complete rest in appearance. Nothing needs be done and therefore there can only be the experience of liberation as that boundary, that separation disappeared. Nothing is obstructing anything in the experience of no-self."
Lastly, I can sense deep confusion and ignorance in the teacher you spoke to. Rather than spreading and resorting to venomous and slanderous nonsense (I know that teacher is not a Buddhist and probably doesn't believe in karma, but still...), he or she should come here, reveal his/her identity and properly debate with us. I am happy to clear up all these misunderstandings. Also, I am not sure if you have read this article I wrote before about how life is like after anatta:
"(commenting on some of Suzanne Segal's descriptions) If someone draws a line in the thin air and is able to plant a seed into a lay person’s inmost consciousness that “he can’t go beyond this line”, that lay person will feel that the so called ‘imaginary’ boundary is as solid as a physical wall. The way we are ‘bonded’ to dualistic view of a ‘Self’ is similar. A strong sense of Witnessing Presence without going beyond that "invisible line" is not the experience of “no-self” in Buddhism and therefore I would not call her experience an “insight” into no-self. The negative experiences she had seem more like very strong ‘self/Self’ propensities, it is a form of split, a separation. Staying in no-self is to be fully authenticated by all things and as all things. Fear arises because of this lack of authentication. She sank too deeply into the 'content'. This is the case of "dark nights" where propensities rushed into manifestations. Her attempt to reason herself out will not work. Logical reasoning cannot break that 'bond' and she just couldn't help reacting to it. One way out is to practice and develop the mental habit of "dissolving" every moment before "content" arise. The mental habit of dissolving will become a strength of it own to counter this problem. In true no-self experience, the first aspect is the cognitive mind loses its charm and is replaced with intuitive and direct experience. Only the qualities of our nature are experienced (clarity, radiance, presence and vitality), nothing about symbols, labels and content. Second, the illusionary view of a "Self' on top of manifestation is dissolved; There is complete rest in appearance. Nothing needs be done and therefore there can only be the experience of liberation as that boundary, that separation disappeared. Nothing is obstructing anything in the experience of no-self."
Lastly, I can sense deep confusion and ignorance in the teacher you spoke to. Rather than spreading and resorting to venomous and slanderous nonsense (I know that teacher is not a Buddhist and probably doesn't believe in karma, but still...), he or she should come here, reveal his/her identity and properly debate with us. I am happy to clear up all these misunderstandings. Also, I am not sure if you have read this article I wrote before about how life is like after anatta:
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/04/why-awakening-is-so-worth-it.html
Why awakening is so worth it
Why awakening is so worth it
From time to time, people ask me why should they seek awakening. I say, awakening will be the best thing that happen in your life, I guarantee it. It is worth whatever effort you put into it. You won't regret it. Or as Daniel M. Ingram said, "Would I trade this for anything? Maybe world peace, but I would have to think about it. Until then, this totally rocks, and missing out on it would be barking crazy from my point of view."
What is it like? I can only give a little preview, an excerpt of what I wrote taken from the AtR guide:
"Personally, I can say from direct experience that direct realization is completely direct, immediate, and non-intellectual, it is the most direct and intimate taste of reality beyond the realm of imagination. It far exceeds one’s expectations and is far superior to anything the mind can ever imagine or dream of. It is utter freedom. Can you imagine living every moment in purity and perfection without effort, where grasping at identity does not take hold, where there is not a trace or sense of 'I' as a seer, feeler, thinker, doer, be-er/being, an agent, a 'self' entity residing inside the body somewhere relating to an outside world, and what shines forth and stands out in the absence of a 'self' is a very marvellous, wondrous, vivid, alive world that is full of intense vividness, joy, clarity, vitality, and an intelligence that is operating as every spontaneous action (there is no sense of being a doer), where any bodily actions, speech and thoughts are just as spontaneous as heart beating, fingernails growing, birds singing, air moving gently, breath flowing, sun shining - there is no distinction between ‘you are doing action’/’you are living’ and ‘action is being done to you’/’you are being lived’ (as there is simply no ‘you’ and ‘it’ - only total and boundless spontaneous presencing).
This is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions (note: I am not proclaiming a state of Buddhahood or Arahantship where all traces of mental afflictions are totally obliterated, see this link http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html and Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood in the original AtR guide https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg for more details), where every color, sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless directness without separation, where life and the universe is experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. - William Blake)
You know all the Mahayana Sutras (e.g. Vimalakirti Sutra), old Zen talks about seeing this very earth as pure land and all the Vajrayana talks about the point of tantra as the pure vision of seeing this very world, body, speech and mind in its primordial unfabricated purity as the Buddha field, palace, mandala, mantra and deity? Now you truly get it, you realise everything is really just like that when experienced in its primordial purity and perfection, and that the old sages have not been exaggerating at all. It is as much a literal and precise description of the state of consciousness as it is a metaphor. As I told John Tan before, Amitabha Sutra’s description of pure land resembles my living experience here and now. “To me it just means anatta. When what’s seen, tasted, touched, smelled are in clean purity, everywhere is pure land.” - John Tan, 2019. "If one is free from background self, all manifestations appear in clean purity in taste. Impurities from what I know come from mental constructions." – John Tan, 2020
This is a freedom that is free from any artificially constructed boundaries and limitations. And yet, this boundlessness does not in any way lead to the dissociation from one’s body, instead one feels more alive than ever as one’s very body, one grows ever more somatic, at home and intimate as one’s body. This is not a body normally conceived of, as the boundaries of an artificially solidified body that stands separated from the universe, dissolve into energetic streams of aliveness dancing and pulsating throughout the body in high energy and pleasure, as well as sensations of foot steps, movement, palm touching an object, where the body is no longer conflated with a constructed boundary of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’, ‘self’ or ‘other’, where no trace of an ‘inside’ and an ‘outside’ can be found in one’s state of consciousness - there’s only one indivisible, boundless and measureless world/mind - only this infinitude of a dynamic and seamlessly interconnected dance that we call ‘the universe’. This is better than any passing peak experiences be they arisen spontaneously, in meditation or through the use of psychedelic substances. And yet, despite experiencing life to it fullest every moment without any veils, in complete openness and utter nakedness, nothing gains a foothold in consciousness, for as vivid as they are, they leave no trace just as a bird leaves no tracks in the sky, an empty and lucid display such as a gust of wind and the glittery reflections of moon on the ocean waves - appearing but nothing ‘there’ or anywhere. All these words and descriptions I just wrote came very easily and spontaneously in a very short time as I am simply describing my current state of experience that is experienced every moment. I am not being poetic here but simply being as direct and clear as possible about what is immediately experienced. And this is only a figment that I am describing. If I were to tell you more of what this is like, you would not believe it. But once you enter this gateless realm you shall see that words always pale in comparison."
Labels: Anatta |
----
Mr JD wrote:
'/%3E%3Cpath d='M16.0001 7.9996c0 4.418-3.5815 7.9996-7.9995 7.9996S.001 12.4176.001 7.9996 3.5825 0 8.0006 0C12.4186 0 16 3.5815 16 7.9996Z' fill='url(%23paint1_radial_15251_63610)'/%3E%3Cpath d='M16.0001 7.9996c0 4.418-3.5815 7.9996-7.9995 7.9996S.001 12.4176.001 7.9996 3.5825 0 8.0006 0C12.4186 0 16 3.5815 16 7.9996Z' fill='url(%23paint2_radial_15251_63610)' fill-opacity='.5'/%3E%3Cpath d='M7.3014 3.8662a.6974.6974 0 0 1 .6974-.6977c.6742 0 1.2207.5465 1.2207 1.2206v1.7464a.101.101 0 0 0 .101.101h1.7953c.992 0 1.7232.9273 1.4917 1.892l-.4572 1.9047a2.301 2.301 0 0 1-2.2374 1.764H6.9185a.5752.5752 0 0 1-.5752-.5752V7.7384c0-.4168.097-.8278.2834-1.2005l.2856-.5712a3.6878 3.6878 0 0 0 .3893-1.6509l-.0002-.4496ZM4.367 7a.767.767 0 0 0-.7669.767v3.2598a.767.767 0 0 0 .767.767h.767a.3835.3835 0 0 0 .3835-.3835V7.3835A.3835.3835 0 0 0 5.134 7h-.767Z' fill='%23fff'/%3E%3Cdefs%3E%3CradialGradient id='paint1_radial_15251_63610' cx='0' cy='0' r='1' gradientUnits='userSpaceOnUse' gradientTransform='rotate(90 .0005 8) scale(7.99958)'%3E%3Cstop offset='.5618' stop-color='%230866FF' stop-opacity='0'/%3E%3Cstop offset='1' stop-color='%230866FF' stop-opacity='.1'/%3E%3C/radialGradient%3E%3CradialGradient id='paint2_radial_15251_63610' cx='0' cy='0' r='1' gradientUnits='userSpaceOnUse' gradientTransform='rotate(45 -4.5257 10.9237) scale(10.1818)'%3E%3Cstop offset='.3143' stop-color='%2302ADFC'/%3E%3Cstop offset='1' stop-color='%2302ADFC' stop-opacity='0'/%3E%3C/radialGradient%3E%3ClinearGradient id='paint0_linear_15251_63610' x1='2.3989' y1='2.3999' x2='13.5983' y2='13.5993' gradientUnits='userSpaceOnUse'%3E%3Cstop stop-color='%2302ADFC'/%3E%3Cstop offset='.5' stop-color='%230866FF'/%3E%3Cstop offset='1' stop-color='%232B7EFF'/%3E%3C/linearGradient%3E%3C/defs%3E%3C/svg%3E){kind=small}
3 comments
Like
Comment
Copy
All comments
Soh Wei Yu
There was another thread about a neo-nondual teacher Suzanne who ended up with nihilistic tendencies, where I explained why this is totally not the same as AtR anatta:
- Like
- ReplySoh Wei YuAdminGroup expertTry this link instead, the above seems to not work:
Awakening to RealityAwakening to Reality- Reply
- Remove Preview
Soh Wei YuAdminGroup expertIf the links above do not work, click on the search button on AtR group and search "Kelvin Ng · Please comment on her difficulties at the point of making this video. Thank you."- Reply
