Recently a few people in AtR grouped realised anatta, also a few have realised I AM.

Here's one that realised I AM, Chris Jones:


Mr. C. J. :


I couldn’t make a post at the time, but about two weeks ago I had a realization while doing my daily practice of “who am I?” inquiry and abiding as awareness. At first I didn’t think anything of it. My mind just went completely quiet for about 10 minutes, and during that time there was no suffering, no emotion or thoughts at all, not even bliss. Just pure stillness. Then when my thoughts returned, I felt like I was no longer the body-mind. Since then, I no longer have to abide as awareness because I’m already there. The self-inquiry I was doing before now feels nonsensical. The best way I can explain this shift is that the experience of being “present” or “aware” that I was having glimpses of before, which required effort to sustain, has now solidified and is now my default way of experiencing the world. I experienced a tremendous amount of energy after the event and had trouble sleeping for a couple of days. The night that it happened, I didn’t sleep at all and just sat there for hours in pure presence. Fortunately it didn’t reach the point of extreme discomfort and eventually I passed out.
At this point my mode of perception is still the same, but the energy has subsided and things have somewhat gone back to normal. The body-mind mostly still behaves in the same way - the mind wanders, there is craving/clinging and aversion and the rest of it just as before. But rather than being the “doer”, I’m like a watcher in the background experiencing everything. All the sights, thoughts, bodily sensations, sounds, smells and tastes appear for a moment like pixels on a screen and then disappear as the movie keeps playing.
Often, the sense of being awareness fades and becomes less prominent. For example, when I’m deep in a stressful thought I almost feel like I’m the separate self again (this is becoming more rare). There is a sort of temporary contraction. But once the thought disappears, I drop back into awareness.

Soh Wei Yu
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Is there doubtless realisation and certainty of what your Being or Existence is?
Like https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/12/i-am-experienceglimpserecognition-vs-i.html
https://awakeningclaritynow.com/awakening-to-the-natural-state-guest-teaching-by-john-wheeler/
I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.BLOGSPOT.COM
I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)
I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)

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Mr. C. J.
Yes, I believe so. I’ve had glimpses before but this time there was a certainty to it. I felt like I was done with the inquiry and there was nothing else to find. I believed that I was a body/mind my whole life, and at that moment, the belief was shattered.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Mr. C. J.
Sounds great. From that point the entire journey is about the unfolding of that taste of luminosity and Presence into its most mature and full blown actualization, free from all artificial boundaries and separation... yet in a totally effortless and natural and spontaneous manner. Deepening of insights into that Presence and the nature of it is required.
There is no need to rush for the next insight, but when you feel ready, you may want to look into the four aspects of the I AM and the two stanzas of anatta and Bahiya Sutta. Thanks for sharing.

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Mr. C. J.
Thanks for your help Soh
. I’ll keep refining these insights and focus on the contemplations you suggested.
From your descriptions it sounds like Stage 2 is more of an experience than a permanent insight. Does that mean there is only a glimpse of “I am everything” at this stage?
And I guess dropping is only required as a practice after Stage 2? I’m jumping ahead a bit here but wanted to clarify.

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Soh Wei Yu
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“It is bringing this I AM into everything. I AM the I in you. The I in the cat, the I in the bird. I AM the first person in everyone and Everything. I. That is my second phase. That the I is ultimate and universal.” - John Tan, 2013
John Tan said today "4 aspects r simply pathing u towards non-dual when you r in the phase of ultimate presence."

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Soh Wei Yu
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This is Stage 2: https://www.facebook.com/521855784/posts/10156891243275785/
Although in my I AM phase, if you look into my e-journal, I went through the phase of impersonality where the I turns universal, I think it is not the full blown Stage 2.
John Tan did not want to lead me too deeply into I AM as he was worried that he will have a hard time getting me 'out of it' because the I AM is seen as ultimate.
But the I turning universal is natural also for one who matures the four aspects of I AM, but without much danger of continuously reifying and creating abstractions. It is the way to nondual along with the nondual contemplations.

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Soh Wei Yu
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"dropping is only required as a practice after Stage 2"
Dropping was recommended to me even before Stage 1. John Tan told me to practice it alongside self-enquiry.

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Soh Wei Yu
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Dropping is important throughout one's practice, just that it gets refined over time based on one's insights.
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/09/six-stages-of-dropping.html
Six Stages of Dropping
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.BLOGSPOT.COM
Six Stages of Dropping
Six Stages of Dropping

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Soh Wei Yu
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John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:22pm UTC+08
Also I did not lead u to I M everything.
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:26pm UTC+08
oic.. how is I AM everything like?
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:28pm UTC+08
It is bringing this I M into everything. I M the I in u. The I in the cat, the I in the bird. I M the first person in everyone and Everything. I.
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:29pm UTC+08
is this related to impersonality?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:30pm UTC+08
i dont think this is the samkhya understanding though. samkhya understanding of purusha is very individualistic..
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:30pm UTC+08
After impersonality and the experience of the higher power, u should progress into that.
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:30pm UTC+08
when i experience impersonality it is something similar.. like universal
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:30pm UTC+08
everything is from the same consciousness
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:31pm UTC+08
But becoz I worry u sank too deep and I worry I can't lead u out...lol.
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:33pm UTC+08
There was a period u went too deep into I Mness so I did not tell u to explore further into it.
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:34pm UTC+08
Instead I tell u to look into dissolving the subject/object duality.
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:34pm UTC+08
Oic..
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:35pm UTC+08
Otherwise it should b dwelling further into the ultimate of I.
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:36pm UTC+08
Instead of dissolving subject/object division.
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:36pm UTC+08
I m the phase.
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:36pm UTC+08
That is my second phase.
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:37pm UTC+08
That the I is ultimate and universal.
John TanFriday, February 21, 2014 at 9:40pm UTC+08
For u, after direct apprehension of Awareness, I think there is no point to further strengthen this tendency to that lvl.

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Mr. C. J.
Thanks again, this is all really helpful! Will keep practising bearing your comments in mind.
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Mr. C. J.
Does anyone have any practices that they found useful at this stage? I’ve been focusing on the four aspects of “I AM”, currently contemplating luminosity by inquiring “what is aliveness in this moment?” and trying to notice the intensity/immediacy of sensations.
One thing that isn’t clear to me is when to switch over to non-dual contemplations. Or whether they should be done in conjunction with the four aspects of “I AM”. Any advice is welcome 🙂
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Soh Wei Yu
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A fine balance of bringing the taste of Presence to the foreground interspersed with contemplation. Let it flow naturally. Sort of like self enquiry, you don't let the inquiry become just a repetitive verbal mantra.

 Mr. N. W.
Hey Mr. C. J.
well done. Sounds like you're doing great 🙂 Can I ask you what your sitting practice looked like before this? And how long were you doing Inquiry before this happened? And... how long had you been meditating and where were you mapping to prior to starting the inquiry process?

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Mr. C. J.
Hey Nick
! I’ve been meditating for a while but have experimented with a lot of different practices. I spent about 7 years doing mostly concentration practices (anapanasati) with a few breaks during that time. At that point I wasn’t interested in the insight maps at all and did it from a self improvement perspective. I switched over to MCTB and Mahasi style noting, did that for a few months and that’s when I think my insight progress really kicked off. I experienced some shifts which I now believe got me to MCTB 2nd path (pre-“I AM”).
I discovered the AtR blog and ebook recently and was doing self-inquiry at every opportunity every day for about a month. Alongside that, about an hour of sitting meditation where I would abide in awareness and combine that with the self inquiry. The AtR maps and practices feel a lot more natural to me now than those from MCTB.

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Mr. N. W.
Mr. C. J.
that's really interesting. Thanks so much for sharing 😃 I think like you I map to MCTB 2nd path but I got here mostly through applying the MCTB principles to the Goenka technique. I like Seeing that Frees a lot and just shifting from Anicca to Anatta as the focus has been huge this last week. Not sure I quite get Inquiry yet though. Were you just holding the question (sense of curiosity) within/on the field of thoughtless awareness that is in and around the body? When I try this stuff if clearly happening as I start to cycle up through the nana's and get a lot of head pressure but it's a big change to make and I don't want to waste a lot of time doing it wrong lol

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Mr. N. W.
Anyway. Your success is very inspiring. Virtual beers on you Chris...

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Mr. C. J.
I would inquire “who am I?” and then notice the shift in perception. The question itself is like a pointer that brings you back to awareness (of course, you were always it, the true self is just obscured by thoughts and conditioning). I wouldn’t say that awareness is in or even around the body, it’s not bound by time or space. The advice I received from Soh and others was to not mindlessly repeat it like a mantra, but treat it more as an investigation. You are trying to find your true self. When thoughts arise you can also ask “to whom does this thought occur?” and the same for the other senses. Keep going until you have doubtless certainty of who you are.
I’d recommend “Who Am I?” by Ramana Maharshi, it’s short and to the point.
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Mr. N. W.
Mr. C. J.
yeah, I'm already reading it 🙂 I don't have many thoughts when I walk/do stuff in the day. When I ask "who am I" I feel the subtle body / energetic field in/around the body. If I then ask "who am I" focused on that sense of self then the perspective moves out and is wider and more inclusive and not full of energy/vibration etc. Does that make sense to you Chris?

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Mr. C. J.
Yeah, that makes sense. I think some people are more predisposed to feeling energy in/around their body as a result of previous practice and whatnot. There are usually multiple layers of self to be seen through, so it sounds like you’re on the right track. Keep inquiring into the wider and more inclusive “self”. Is there something that is aware of that? What is it? Don’t worry about missing the answer, you’ll know when you’re done.
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Mr. A. J.:

Have you compiled a book or something to guide a person from I am to Anatta stages in a graded way?

Soh:

Hmm i'm outside now.. will reply your messages later

But i have a guide but its messy and long and still being edited

U can see if any pointers help

https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg

Mr. A. J.:

Thanks Soh !

    Thusness: ...To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing, always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)

    This is beautiful. This is exactly what I am realizing.


Soh:

Are you doubtless about this yet?


Mr. A. J.:
I mean I am not in disagreement with this experience. I have an intuition of this and I would like to mature this and stabilize in this experience.
I was wondering about the methodology. Should it be only contemplation or is there some inquiry approach that can work along with contemplation.


Soh:

i see. you can do a little case study... lol. since you have the time, it might be good to go through these. a good thing about atr is that so far, many people who came across our group and blog has realised anatta. i estimate about 40 people. so i have collected some of their writings and even requested some to write a little.

from all these cases, you can see that some of them have slightly different trigger points. you can look into them and see what is their inquiry and contemplations that triggered the shift of insight for me. for me it is a sort of experiential contemplation or inquiry into the nature of 'consciousness' through bahiya sutta.

for john tan it was the two stanzas of anatta -- http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html

for me, slightly different, although not all that different, it was through contemplating on bahiya sutta to penetrate the subject-action-object dichotomy -- http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/10/my-commentary-on-bahiya-sutta.html , https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-wind-is-blowing.html

for ajahn amaro i think it is also bahiya sutta - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html , https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-breakthrough.html

for soto zen priest and teacher alex r. weith, it is through bahiya sutta - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/10/a-zen-exploration-of-bahiya-sutta.html

i think you will like the approach of kyle dixon, because he approaches deconstruction and contemplation from many angles even quite early on, not just from the aspect of anatta, which is why he penetrated into twofold emptiness pretty quickly, so, highly recommended reading - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2012/03/a-sun-that-never-sets.html and https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/10/advise-from-kyle_10.html - you can see that he actually also integrated a little bit of his insights from Madhyamika, DP, j krishnamurti, alan watts etc along with AtR, dzogchen, all into it

for robert dominik too there was a series of contemplations and inquiries - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2019/09/robert-dominiks-breakthrough.html

for nafis rahman the most recent to breakthrough to anatta, it was through triggered while contemplating on two books which was recommended by atr/myself - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/10/nafis-rahmans-breakthrough-to-anatta.html

for joel agee , reading a verse on dzogchen triggered the insight - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2013/09/joel-agee-appearances-are-self_1.html

for td unmanifest, its the two nondual contemplations in the atr guide and zen master dogen's uji that led to his insights - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/07/breakthroughs-to-anatta.html
kyle dixon is very clear about view and realization and experience are clear.. he practices dzogchen and his teacher arcaya malcolm smith is also clear. might want to read this on madhyamika, will help: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/06/choosing.html and https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2019/10/investigation-into-movement.html

btw arcaya malcolm smith is teaching dzogchen in two weeks, an online course. if you're interested you can join his group and check out: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/09/buddhahood-in-this-life-great.html



What Is The "Me"? by Toni Packer

Mr. A. J.:

Thank you so much Soh ! That's quite a wealth of material. I'll surely go through all this and find my way 🙂

Thanks indeed !

 Written by Andre A. Pais:

Mipham seems to be one of the greatest inclusivists in the Buddhadharma. He always tries to embrace everything non-conflictingly, be it Pramana, Yogacara and Madhyamaka; Svatantrika and Prasangika; sutra and tantra; or inner and outer tantras (genral vajrayana and Dzogchen) [although I'm not so familiar here - nor anywhere else, for that matter...]. And usually Mipham uses a soft tone, despite not shying away from criticizing other views when need be.

As far as I understand it, from Mipham's introduction to Shantarakshita's Adornment of the Middle Way, his view is:

Mahayana, philosophically, is divided into Yogacara and Madhyamaka. Madhyamaka is further divided into Svatantrika and Prasangika.

Prasangika always keeps the 2 truths united, so they apparently have no interest in the conventional except for refuting it mercilessly, revealing its lack of nature. Even conventionally, phenomena are beyond the four conceptual extremes. [I don't know what this means conventionally].

Svatantrika splits the 2 truths:

Conventionally:

The conventional can either be embraced as

1) according to the Sautrantika system, accepting external objects as being momentary and composed of partless particles - this is the view of Bhavaviveka. It's called Sautrantika-Svatantrika-Madhyamaka.

Or

2) it can be accepted as according to the Cittamatra system that affirms that the objects of our experience are purely mental - this is the view of Shantarakshita. It's called Yogacara-Svatantrika-Madhyamaka.

It means that conventionally some Madhyamikas accept external objects, others see experience as mental. Any of these perspectives has its strength, and it's all for the sake of connecting with students who simply can't understand the sheer profundity of the prasangika stance beyond conceptual proliferation. Moreover, it allows Madhyamikas to debate non-buddhists or non-madhyamikas, since the former "seem" to accept objects in ways that are bridgeable to these other realist philosophical systems.

Ultimately:

Concerning the ultimate truth, the characteristic of the Svatantrika approach is that it further divides the ultimate in two: the aproximate or concordant ultimate, and the actual ultimate. The aproximate or concordant ultimate is a conceptual "image" or conviction that is concordant with and aproximates the mind of the meditator to the actual ultimate. Again, this is all pedagogical, established so that practitioners can, step by step, approach the ultimate conceptually, ever more subtly, until all conceptually dissolves and the ultimate is directly perceived without the aid of anything extraneous to it - and thus the path of seeing is reached, first bhumi.

However, the final view of any Svatantrika is a middle way beyond extremes, indistinguishable from any prasangika.

This being said, Mipham defends Bhavaviveka (and praises Shantarakshita and his main treatise above anything else in the world!) while simultaneously subscribing to Chandrakirti's radical and uncompromising view. He resolves the issue, like already intuited, by saying that Svatantrika exists for the purpose of gradual-type of practitioners, while Prasangika aims at the sudden-type. He even compares the Prasangika approach with the Dzogchen view of self-liberation - everything is already instantaneously and spontaneously liberated; reality abides always and "intrinsically" as natural nirvana.

My only issue is that Mipham, and Shantarakshita, makes use of Cittamatra as the supreme explanation of merely the conventional, as a step towards Madhyamaka. The translators do note, however, that the Cittamatra that reifies the mind is the Cittamatra that was solidified by doxographers as a tenet system, and not the scriptural Cittamatra. It's this "tenet system Cittamatra" that is refuted by Madhyamaka, not necessarily the Yogacara tradition; and it is this type Cittamatra that is being used as an explanation of the conventional - and so, when approaching the ultimate, it needs to be abandoned in favor of the superior Madhyamaka view. Yogacara as it "actually" is, and not as it is portrayed by some madhyamikas, doesn't necessarily reify anything and consequently doesn't necessarily have to be abandoned in favor of Madhyamaka when reaching for the actual ultimate.

Concerning Tsongkhapa, as some authors and lineage masters have pointed out, he's a peculiar Madhyamika, because his apparently obsession with philosophical analysis has him constructing elaborate theories concerning the conventional, supported by his appreciation for the epistemological tradition. In this respect, he seems to come closer to Bhavaviveka than to his Madhyamaka hero, the glorious Chandrakirti.

On the other hand, contrary to other great Madhyamikas, namely Gorampa, the Karmapas and Mipham, Tsongkhapa does think that the ultimate is a non-affirming negation and that conceptuality can rise all the way to the actual ultimate. Therefore, the actual ultimate is actually a negation and thus not beyond the four ontological extremes. In this sense, by conceptualizing the ultimate, he again seems to come closer to the "aproximate ultimate" of the svatantrikas than to the actual ultimate beyond extremes of the prasangikas.

See whole discussion here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/permalink/4595324210508973

Chris Jones recently realised I AM and posed this question.

Chris Jones

Has anyone gone through Liberation Unleashed and have any experiences or thoughts on it they’d like to share? They claim to be able to point people directly to Anatta, even without any prior practice. It seems to depend highly on how experienced your guide is, but I think it’s a really interesting idea.

(I’m not advertising and don’t represent them in any way, just wanted opinions)

Soh Wei Yu

You know I always throw the 80% I AM, 15% One Mind Nondual, 2% or less anatta/emptiness estimate by myself (admittedly I haven't done a very methodical study) which is purely based on my own estimate.

My guess, again based purely on impressions, is that LU is somewhat like 80% impersonality, maybe 10–20% have gone through I AM, 10% have one mind sort of nondual, and maybe 1–2% are closer to anatta.

But for you, if you can even experience impersonality that is good, since that is one of the four aspects of I AM that will be your next step. For example, when John Wheeler wrote this article, he was only experiencing the ‘impersonality’ aspect of no-self + I AM realization, so that no-self spoken in there is about impersonality, nothing more, he wasn't even clear about nondual yet: Awakening to the Natural State — yet he clearly delineated the two insights (I AM and impersonality) as both different yet crucial and complementary to his understanding and breakthrough.

I suppose some do have anatta sort of insight from LU and Ruthless Truth but it is a minority. Hale Oh said he realised anatta in LU, and prior to that he was at the I AM phase.

Liberation Unleashed was the offshoot of Ruthless Truth, exactly same approach also, so these comments apply:

Conversation — 18 May 2011

Thusness: Don't over-promote Ruthless Truth. Many of the "blue status" members aren't realizing anatta, and that is not the way to teach.

AEN: I see. Yeah, I do notice that many have not realized anatta. Why is it not the way to teach?

Thusness: What are they teaching? Everything isn't clear. How is it that you introduce people to this site here and there instead of leading people to the right path with the right view? There are so many good Buddhist sites with right teaching. Some don't even have non-dual view, and with all these over-claiming, don't mislead people. How things manifest is not clear; anatta is not clear; non-dual is not clear. There is not even the experience of I AM.

AEN: I see. Yeah, they don't talk about I AM. I think it is a mix of people in impersonality, non-dual, and anatta. I mean the site.

Thusness: Not only that, there is no clear insight. So don't anyhow claim about enlightenment and lead people to enlightenment. Worst still is over-claiming that insight of anatta arises. This is pure nonsense. What anatta? Didn't I tell you experience of "no-mind" is not anatta? From a scale of 1 to 10, I don't even rate it a 2. Don't anyhow introduce people; that will only mislead people. Not even Actual Freedom. There is no shortcut. Don't get mixed up and confused. Out of 10 questions asked about anatta, I don't think they can pass even one. Lead them to the right Buddhist site.

AEN: What questions?

Thusness: There is Mahamudra. You mean Ruthless Truth has clarity?

AEN: Not really.

Thusness: Then? Anatta must be understood with Dependent Origination. Don't create Buddha. You are misrepresenting Buddhism. I don't even dare say I understand the profound teaching of Buddha. How is anatta the end of the path? Didn't I tell you it is only the beginning stage? And from a scale of 1 to 10 in the bhumis, what has one understood? Understand clearly that it is only the bare beginning of rightly understanding liberation. Also, do not give people the impression that anatta is the end of the path. Also, the releasing is still not there. As for you, release your contraction. Your latent tendencies are still strong despite your realization.

AEN: Means sense of self?

Thusness: Your mind and body. You are unable to let go non-dually. It means your latent inherent tendencies are still very strong. Sit and let go of your entire mind and body. Meet conditions and let go. When you answer your parents, treat it as a form of practice too. Smile in your heart and be patient. After realization, meditate on the Six Entries and Exits. Feel that whatever arises is primordially pure. Then allow it to meet daily matters... see how it arises... and understand the latent deep. That is then true practice.

AEN: I see. Letting go non-dually—is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isn't even "a universe"...

Thusness: No. That is completely wrong. After anatta, you are able to experience whatever arises directly. Feel wholly. Yet you are still contracting. Your entire body is imprinted to hold. Letting go non-dually means allow whatever arises to let go. By its own accord, non-dually. Not by disassociation. Practice this. Your mind, your thoughts, your body—without ground, without center, without essence. Like painting on a pond. You understand theoretically but not in direct experience. There is realization but experience is still on the surface. Is your body releasing?

AEN: It feels like any "I" or anything is dissolving into just the universe... and not only that the entire universe is dissolving, gone each moment.

Thusness: Is your mind in a state of perpetual releasing?

AEN: I wouldn't say perpetual... like every moment of my life I guess... but it's like kind of normal.

Thusness: No. Now you are only without background, but not releasing. Your experience is direct, vivid, and clear, but not releasing. Experience is spontaneous but not releasing. That is different. Spontaneous because of Dependent Origination, but if latent tendencies are there, what arises is like a perpetual holding mode. Just like an arising thought, there is no one behind, but that "thought" is attachment. Is holding. Get it? Like your attachment to the forum. Now there are two ways: one is disassociation, one is letting go due to its nature. When I told you to let go, initially we do it by way of disassociation. Even after arising insight of anatta, we still do it that way. But we understand what it meant. However, most of the time, releasing and letting go is still very much dualistic.

AEN: I see. What is letting go dualistically? Means there is aversion? Or trying to tune things out?

Thusness: You may think your letting go is natural, but it is not. It is still a form of disassociation. When you hear music, listen and experience how it disappears... like painting on the surface of a pond. Slowly dissolve into tracelessness. As itself and by itself dissolve into tracelessness. When you breathe... train yourself to be in tune with the flow. Your thoughts. Your body and your mind must be in a state of perpetual releasing. This is very important.

AEN: Means everything is like gone and fresh without clinging to a previous moment?

Thusness: Don't worry about being fresh. Means phenomena itself is releasing. Mental states. Body. Mind. Whatever arises. Now your experience is still very skewed towards intensity of luminosity. Feels experiencing directly and wholly. Like I told you about the mandala, vivid and clear... then gone. Although you understand, you have not experienced clearly yet.

AEN: It's similar to what I said right? "Letting go non-dually is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isn't even 'a universe'..."

Thusness: No. When you experienced, you will not be writing this way. Why do you worry about the universe?

AEN: For example, if I am walking on the street... there isn't a perception even of moving from one location to another... in fact there is not even a perception of there being a universe... it's utterly empty and self-releasing... nothing I can pin down.

Thusness: Why universe? Why do you worry so much about the universe?

AEN: Yeah... that's what I mean. There isn't a universe.

Thusness: So why mention about it?

AEN: Because prior to this the universe still does have a tinge of appearing solid... like it's "there"... but now that can't be said.

Thusness: It is not experience becoming dream-like. I mean saying the releasing. Did you experience that releasing?

AEN: If you mean everything is gone every moment and nothing solid there then yes... but if you mean something else then I don't know.

Thusness: No, I am not referring to nothing solid... I am telling you the releasing. Aiyoh... you know what is releasing or not? The feeling of letting go...

AEN: Is it like the tranquilizing of body and mind that I talked about?

Thusness: Do you have that feeling of letting go? Not stillness. Like now you are very attached. Then the letting go of this attachment... let go... get it? Like you are very attached to answering to Kian... I tell you to let go... gone... get it? One is holding, one is letting. Your mind is holding. I told you let go... get it?

AEN: Just now I took a glance at Taobums, then headache... then I just let go. Gone.

Thusness: Let's say in the seen, just the seen... I tell you to let go of that... gone... no more. Gate gate... gone... like the Heart Sutra. Currently there is still a sense of "let go." It is just that arising letting go of itself. I am not referring to the explanation... I am referring to that experience. I am not referring to that you realize that. I am saying that "releasing." It is just like luminosity... you directly experience the non-dual luminosity. Clear, vivid... pristine... and brilliantly present. I am not referring to that "releasing." Did you experience it?

AEN: Yeah, I mean if I open to sensations as they are, they simply subside momentarily by itself... it is because I don't open to sensations as they are, that I cling to things solidly.

Thusness: Aiyoh. I am saying did you experience that releasing? It is like there is no-self. It is like you tell someone there is no-self. The question is did that someone directly experience the no-self? Once you experience no-self, you clearly understand no-self. I mean now say, about that releasing... get it?

AEN: More like non-abiding.

Thusness: More like stainless.

AEN: What I experience is that every moment is gone and fresh without any sense of linking with the past... but there is also not even the "present" as everything is really dissolving, not solid, not graspable.

Thusness: You know what is burden or not? Like walking 24km... then you completed. Finished... release... get it? Do you have that feeling? Can you get what I meant? What you are telling me is phenomena is empty... you realize... it is passing away. Get it? It is like you are watching... phenomena is gone. It is different from being that phenomena that is gone. The burden is gone. Like you are holding a rifle over your head. Tiring... then you let go... that letting go sensation. Releasing. Get it? Not "I see phenomena is ever passing," dreamlike. I am referring to that: do you have that feeling of releasing?

AEN: No, I don't feel that kind of releasing I think. I mean like what you described above.

Thusness: Yeah. Like when you first experience anatta. No-self. The weight is gone. There is a sense of relief too. On top of the vividness. Suddenly that linkage is gone. Get it? Like you are in conflict with someone. Suddenly both of you patch up. Relief and release. That feeling. Get it? Like you are having anger. Let go.

AEN: I see. So you're saying one should practice this?

Thusness: If you do not understand this, you will need to undergo suffering to release. Practice because it is not clear... the experience is not obvious. No owner is clear; no background is clear. The releasing is still very much lacking. Practice letting go as if you are willing to drop everything. I go sleep already.

AEN: I see. Good night.

Soh Wei Yu

One of the co-founders of LU, Elena Nezhinsky, 'gated' at Ruthless Truth and experienced impersonality/non-doership. She started LU and only many years after starting LU did she realize I AM through self-enquiry. Then after I AM, the nondual aspect.

Also I wrote this article which some may find helpful: Different Degrees of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls




Update, 2025, Soh wrote to someone:

Hi,

Regarding the use of AI, I actually think it is okay for guides to use AI to write and polish message replies, provided they are using it correctly. The key is not that they use it, but how they use it.

For example, even though I am using AI to help draft this reply to you right now, it is not a random message generated by simply prompting "X said this, write a reply." Rather, it contains my specific, directed thoughts and points, but perhaps expressed with better structure or clarity by the AI. If the guide is feeding their specific pointing instructions into an LLM to improve communication, that is a tool. If they are letting the LLM do the guiding without oversight, that is a problem.

However, I believe there is a bigger issue here than the AI itself: the question of whether the guidance at Liberation Unleashed (LU) is misleading or incomplete regarding the final goal.

It is important to note that Liberation Unleashed—and similar approaches—most of the time leads only to a preliminary type of no-self realization often called "Impersonality" or "Non-doership." While valuable, this is not yet the non-dual realization or the insight of Anatta (no-self) that I (or teachers like Angelo DiLullo) talk about. In fact, it lacks even the initial I AM awakening (or what Angelo calls the realization of unbounded consciousness or the preliminary 'awakening'). On the I AM and further stages of awakening, see https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

I have written extensively on why this distinction matters and the pitfalls of stopping at the "LU stage." or "mere impersonality". I highly recommend reading these two articles that I have posted in my blog to understand what I mean:

1. On the specific approach of LU: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/10/is-liberation-unleashed-similar-to-atr.html

2. On the different stages of insight (Crucial for distinguishing Impersonality from Anatta): https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html

 Mr Z.R wrote: