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- Book reccThis is my number 1 favourite Dharma book now.Every sentence is gold.I will carry it in my bag and read it a few more times.This book contains teaching of the definitive view, Dzogchen the Great Perfection.It is the Highest teaching on the path, so not provisional teaching / sutrayana in case u r looking for that sort.
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André A. PaisSutrayana is not necessarily provisional in meaning, only slower methodologically (according to tantra).- Reply
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Yin Ling
André A. Pais u r right.
I’m trying to say .. not the lower teachings but sounds very derogatory lol
André A. Pais
And
I actually realized that I might be misreading your comment. You may
not be equating sutrayana with provisional, but merely saying that the
book is neither on provisional teachings nor on sutrayana.
Mr. RDT
According to Longchenpa Prasangika Madhyamaka and Dzogchen have the same view but the method is different.
Yin Ling
For me even sutra just complements the whole teaching. The functional side of the ultimate. It’s how one read it.
But I feel if one person is at sutra level, needs the sutra teaching, reading such book is not skillful..
Some even will criticise bec they can’t see yet which is not good.
André A. Pais
And
Mipham. And the 8th Karmapa (probably all Kagyü lineages). It's no
wonder that Madhyamaka, Mahamudra and Dzogchen are often placed side by
side and called the 3 greats (Mahamadhyamaka, Mahamudra and Mahasandi).
Mr. RDT
Tulku
Urgyen I think said that Madhyamaka is the basis, Mahamudra is the path
and Dzogchen is the result. Not sure if he was the source of this
teaching, probably its not his invention but a longer commentarial
tradition.
Yin Ling
André A. Pais ur right .
André A. Pais
From the Longchen Nyingthig, revealed by Longchenpa to Jigme Lingpa (in a visionary encounter).
André A. Pais
And from the 3rd Karmapa, student and teacher of Longchenpa.
John Tan
As Mipham Rinpoche remarks,
"A
state of freedom from conceptual constructs…may indeed be induced in
the mind by virtue of no more than the certainty arising from analytical
investigation. This, however, is a very lengthy process and takes birth
in connection with, and thanks to, an extraordinary accumulation (of
wisdom and of merit).
On
the other hand, skillful methods exist whereby this same freedom from
conceptual construction may be achieved more quickly and with
comparative ease.
It
can be realized swiftly and without much difficulty in dependence on
the profound methods of Mantra, and especially through the power of the
pith instructions that introduce one directly to the nature of the mind.
It is thus that the experience of the fundamental mode of being
occurs."
Finding Rest in Illusion (page xxxii - xxxiii)
André A. Pais
I wonder what Zen folks think of their vehicle being considered very slow. Or is Zen a special (suddenist) type of sutrayana?
Mr. RDT
"So close you can’t see it.
So deep you can’t fathom it.
So simple you can’t believe it.
So good you can’t accept it."
– Kalu Rinpoche
(The Four "Faults" of Natural Awareness)
Yin Ling
André A. Pais I feel zen is direct and super fast though.
Yin Ling
André A. Pais MMK and theravada is gradual.
John Tan
André A. Pais
I don't think the zen practitioners consider their vehicle as slow and
categorised as sutrayana as it is "outside scriptures, a direct pointing
to one's mind".
