Someone posted this but the post seems to have disappeared before I could approve. Perhaps he deleted it? 

"So a nondual teacher that I've followed for a while is claiming that the idea of no-self upheld by this group, Angelo Dilullo, Adyashanti, Fetters 8-10 etc. (dropping away of all identity, no agency, no doership, no inner world, no self reflection) is not supported or taught by Buddhism whatsoever. They claim that this is a recent invention and no different from depersonalization/derealization.

They claim that all of these teachers- Angelo, Adyashanti, John Tan, etc are actually just experiencing depersonalization and derealization. They describe no-self as a "hell realm" and that any teacher promising the end of suffering is misleading and not being genuine about their own experience. They further claim that many of these nondual teachers are secretly in therapy and on meds due to their deep stage realizations.

How would you guys respond to this?" 

 

 Soh: Having read thousands of pages of Buddha's teachings in suttas/sutras and scriptures, I can assure you that anatman, anatta as discussed in AtR is not at all a recent invention but is the core teaching of Buddha right from the very start. Just take for example these articles on AtR which cites many sciptures: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/anatta-not-self-or-no-self_1.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/09/great-resource-of-buddha-teachings.html , and I will happily provide more quotes and citations any time if necessary. Also, Anatta cannot possibly cause depersonalization. What is depersonalization? Chatgpt: “Depersonalization is a feeling where you feel disconnected from yourself, as if you're watching your life from the outside. It's like when you're in a dream or watching a movie, and your actions or thoughts don't feel like they're your own. People with depersonalization might feel like their body or emotions aren't real, even though they know logically that they are. It’s a way your brain might react to stress or anxiety, like putting up a wall to protect you from feeling overwhelmed.” 

 

If anyone has the slightest clue what is the anatta discussed in AtR, they would know that this depersonalization as described above goes 180 degress opposite of anatta realization, because when the subject-action-object, seer-seeing-seen paradigm is deconstructed, it can only possibly lead to total gapless intimacy with life and activity without a hairbreadth's distinction and separation, hence dissociation is impossible. This cannot be missed right after anatta: "Now the everything feels ‘Me’ sort of sensation becomes a daily matter and the bliss of losing oneself completely into scenery, sound, taste is wonderful. This is different from everything collapsing into a “Single Oneness” sort of experience but a disperse out into the multiplicity of whatever arises. Everything feels closer than ‘me’ due to gaplessness." Anyone who doesn't experience this deep bliss and luminosity of anatta arising in and as all senses and entirety of life arising as samadhi absorption even at the very start of the initial breakthrough of anatman is really not speaking about anatta at all.

In fact depersonalization is possible when one is stuck at some dark night possibly in the I AM and impersonality phase (although I have personally not gone through all these issues myself), but not possible when there is proper anatta realization.

 

We can take Suzanne Segal's case for example, it's too long so you will have to read her whole story: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/dark-night.html Also this is a must-read article written by myself for anyone who wishes to understand AtR Anatta and how it differs from mere impersonality or substantialist nondual, and also why anatta makes depersonalization and dissociation impossible: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html But back to the Suzanne's case, John Tan said it best in January 2007:

"(commenting on some of Suzanne Segal's descriptions) If someone draws a line in the thin air and is able to plant a seed into a lay person’s inmost consciousness that “he can’t go beyond this line”, that lay person will feel that the so called ‘imaginary’ boundary is as solid as a physical wall. The way we are ‘bonded’ to dualistic view of a ‘Self’ is similar. A strong sense of Witnessing Presence without going beyond that "invisible line" is not the experience of “no-self” in Buddhism and therefore I would not call her experience an “insight” into no-self. The negative experiences she had seem more like very strong ‘self/Self’ propensities, it is a form of split, a separation. Staying in no-self is to be fully authenticated by all things and as all things. Fear arises because of this lack of authentication. She sank too deeply into the 'content'. This is the case of "dark nights" where propensities rushed into manifestations. Her attempt to reason herself out will not work. Logical reasoning cannot break that 'bond' and she just couldn't help reacting to it. One way out is to practice and develop the mental habit of "dissolving" every moment before "content" arise. The mental habit of dissolving will become a strength of it own to counter this problem. In true no-self experience, the first aspect is the cognitive mind loses its charm and is replaced with intuitive and direct experience. Only the qualities of our nature are experienced (clarity, radiance, presence and vitality), nothing about symbols, labels and content. Second, the illusionary view of a "Self' on top of manifestation is dissolved; There is complete rest in appearance. Nothing needs be done and therefore there can only be the experience of liberation as that boundary, that separation disappeared. Nothing is obstructing anything in the experience of no-self."


Lastly, I can sense deep confusion and ignorance in the teacher you spoke to. Rather than spreading and resorting to venomous and slanderous nonsense (I know that teacher is not a Buddhist and probably doesn't believe in karma, but still...), he or she should come here, reveal his/her identity and properly debate with us. I am happy to clear up all these misunderstandings. Also,  I am not sure if you have read this article I wrote before about how life is like after anatta:  

 

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/04/why-awakening-is-so-worth-it.html

Why awakening is so worth it

From time to time, people ask me why should they seek awakening. I say, awakening will be the best thing that happen in your life, I guarantee it. It is worth whatever effort you put into it. You won't regret it. Or as Daniel M. Ingram said, "Would I trade this for anything? Maybe world peace, but I would have to think about it. Until then, this totally rocks, and missing out on it would be barking crazy from my point of view."

What is it like? I can only give a little preview, an excerpt of what I wrote taken from the AtR guide:

"Personally, I can say from direct experience that direct realization is completely direct, immediate, and non-intellectual, it is the most direct and intimate taste of reality beyond the realm of imagination. It far exceeds one’s expectations and is far superior to anything the mind can ever imagine or dream of. It is utter freedom. Can you imagine living every moment in purity and perfection without effort, where grasping at identity does not take hold, where there is not a trace or sense of 'I' as a seer, feeler, thinker, doer, be-er/being, an agent, a 'self' entity residing inside the body somewhere relating to an outside world, and what shines forth and stands out in the absence of a 'self' is a very marvellous, wondrous, vivid, alive world that is full of intense vividness, joy, clarity, vitality, and an intelligence that is operating as every spontaneous action (there is no sense of being a doer), where any bodily actions, speech and thoughts are just as spontaneous as heart beating, fingernails growing, birds singing, air moving gently, breath flowing, sun shining - there is no distinction between ‘you are doing action’/’you are living’ and ‘action is being done to you’/’you are being lived’ (as there is simply no ‘you’ and ‘it’ - only total and boundless spontaneous presencing).

This is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions (note: I am not proclaiming a state of Buddhahood or Arahantship where all traces of mental afflictions are totally obliterated, see this link http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html and Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood in the original AtR guide https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/the-awakening-to-reality-practice-guide.html for more details), where every color, sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless directness without separation, where life and the universe is experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. - William Blake)

You know all the Mahayana Sutras (e.g. Vimalakirti Sutra), old Zen talks about seeing this very earth as pure land and all the Vajrayana talks about the point of tantra as the pure vision of seeing this very world, body, speech and mind in its primordial unfabricated purity as the Buddha field, palace, mandala, mantra and deity? Now you truly get it, you realise everything is really just like that when experienced in its primordial purity and perfection, and that the old sages have not been exaggerating at all. It is as much a literal and precise description of the state of consciousness as it is a metaphor. As I told John Tan before, Amitabha Sutra’s description of pure land resembles my living experience here and now. “To me it just means anatta. When what’s seen, tasted, touched, smelled are in clean purity, everywhere is pure land.” - John Tan, 2019. "If one is free from background self, all manifestations appear in clean purity in taste. Impurities from what I know come from mental constructions." – John Tan, 2020

This is a freedom that is free from any artificially constructed boundaries and limitations. And yet, this boundlessness does not in any way lead to the dissociation from one’s body, instead one feels more alive than ever as one’s very body, one grows ever more somatic, at home and intimate as one’s body. This is not a body normally conceived of, as the boundaries of an artificially solidified body that stands separated from the universe, dissolve into energetic streams of aliveness dancing and pulsating throughout the body in high energy and pleasure, as well as sensations of foot steps, movement, palm touching an object, where the body is no longer conflated with a constructed boundary of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’, ‘self’ or ‘other’, where no trace of an ‘inside’ and an ‘outside’ can be found in one’s state of consciousness - there’s only one indivisible, boundless and measureless world/mind - only this infinitude of a dynamic and seamlessly interconnected dance that we call ‘the universe’. This is better than any passing peak experiences be they arisen spontaneously, in meditation or through the use of psychedelic substances. And yet, despite experiencing life to it fullest every moment without any veils, in complete openness and utter nakedness, nothing gains a foothold in consciousness, for as vivid as they are, they leave no trace just as a bird leaves no tracks in the sky, an empty and lucid display such as a gust of wind and the glittery reflections of moon on the ocean waves - appearing but nothing ‘there’ or anywhere. All these words and descriptions I just wrote came very easily and spontaneously in a very short time as I am simply describing my current state of experience that is experienced every moment. I am not being poetic here but simply being as direct and clear as possible about what is immediately experienced. And this is only a figment that I am describing. If I were to tell you more of what this is like, you would not believe it. But once you enter this gateless realm you shall see that words always pale in comparison."

Labels: Anatta |

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Mr JD wrote: 

Following recent events, I'm seeking clarification on the No Self/Anatta insight. A former member here claimed to have experienced this shift. No centre, boundary, space, agency etc. He really emphasized the lose of meaning. He said he dissolved into the environment, and all that remained was pure sense data. He also described the experience as "not human".

He contacted Dr Willoughby Britton (who works with Daniel Ingram), who told him what he experienced wasn't at all spiritual, but Depersonalization. He posted a list of the symptoms - most of which match up almost perfectly with No Self descriptions from ATR/Angelo. He now believes that this teaching mistake DP for enlightenment.

Anyway, I haven't had this insight - still at I Am - but I am feeling quite confused.

Soh, I don't really need a bunch of links to articles. What I am specifically interested in is: for those who have realized Anatta, what is your experience of meaning? How are your relationships? Children, partners, etc?

Is the cost of the obliteration of self/cessation of suffering the complete eradication of everything it means to be human?

Thanks

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Soh Wei Yu

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Hi, I don't know who the person you said 'had the shift' is referring to. But I'm sure this person hasn't realized anatta as described in AtR, nor has he or she realized luminosity and just merely had a dry nondual peak experience based off your descriptions.

Do keep in mind that anatta in AtR is also not just a state of centerlessness. Certain realizations must arise and it must be doubtless.

As I wrote:

"I was having a conversation with someone today (he had some history with various practices, vipassana, actual freedom, and recently came across a famous Thai ajahn, etc) who shared about an experience of dissolving into centerless space. I told him what I call anatta is not just being centerless, it is the effulgence and radiance of the transience. That is, regardless of any realization of no-self, and no matter how centerless one feels or how centerless is one's experience of awareness and so forth... still, anything short of direct realization of the radiance or luminosity as the very stuff of transiency is still not what I call the realization of anatta. (And that too is also just an aspect of anatta, and furthermore not yet into the twofold emptying)

Was reminded of a conversation with Thusness back in Aug 2010 and found some excerpts from the Actual Freedom site:

"(12:22 AM) Thusness: for u, u will not be clear now... what Richard taught has some problem...that focus is in the experience

u should focus on the realization

(12:22 AM) Thusness: the pce is what i told u, bring what u experience into the foreground

(12:23 AM) Thusness: Richard has a very important realization.

(12:24 AM) Thusness: that is, he is able to realize the immediate radiance in the transience

(12:25 AM) AEN: this is like ur second point of anatta in the anatta article?

(12:25 AM) Thusness: yes

(12:26 AM) Thusness: there is nothing to argue, it is obvious and clear.

(12:27 AM) Thusness: however i do not want to focus on the experience

(12:27 AM) Thusness: u need to go through a period of frustration first"

From the Actual Freedom site:

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/…/selecte…/sc-relativism.htm

RESPONDENT: How do the qualities of ‘splendour and brilliance’ present themselves AS splendour and brilliance?

RICHARD: Directly ... as splendour and brilliance are intrinsic to the properties of this actual world they present themselves openly where apperception is operating: everything is literally bright, shining, vivid, intense, sparkling, luminous, lustrous, scintillating and coruscating in all its vitality here in this actual world.

.....

In a PCE one is fully immersed in the infinitude of this fairy-tale-like actual world with its sensuous quality of magical perfection and purity where everything and everyone has a lustre, a brilliance, a vividness, an intensity and a marvellous, wondrous, scintillating vitality that makes everything alive and sparkling ... even the very earth beneath one’s feet. The rocks, the concrete buildings, a piece of paper ... literally everything is as if it were alive (a rock is not, of course, alive as humans are, or as animals are, or as trees are). This ‘aliveness’ is the very actuality of all existence – the actualness of everything and everyone – for one is not living in an inert universe.

It is one’s destiny to be living the utter peace of the perfection of the purity welling endlessly as the infinitude this eternal, infinite and perpetual universe actually is.

... etc" - continue reading at https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../i-was-having...

Regarding dry nondual experience vs atr anatta:

"Anatta and Pure Presence

Someone told me about having been through insights of no self and then progressing to a realisation of the ground of being.

I replied:

Hi ____

Thanks for the sharing.

This is the I AM realization. Had that realisation after contemplating Before birth, who am I? For two years. It’s an important realization. Many people had insights into certain aspects of no self, impersonality, and “dry non dual experience” without doubtless realization of Presence. Therefore I AM realisation is a progression for them.

Similarly in Zen, asking who am I is to directly experience presence. How about asking a koan of what is the cup? What is the chirping bird, the thunder clap? What is its purpose?

When I talked about anatta, it is a direct insight of Presence and recognizing what we called background presence, is in the forms and colours, sounds and sensations, clean and pure. Authentication is be authenticated by all things. Also there is no presence other than that. What we call background is really just an image of foreground Presence, even when Presence is assuming its subtle formless all pervasiveness.

However due to ignorance, we have a very inherent and dual view, if we do see through the nature of presence, the mind continues to be influenced by dualistic and inherent tendencies. Many teach to overcome it through mere non conceptuality but this is highly misleading.

Thusness also wrote:

The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights

Labels: Anatta, Luminosity | "

- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-pure...

As for "What I am specifically interested in is: for those who have realized Anatta, what is your experience of meaning? How are your relationships? Children, partners, etc?

Is the cost of the obliteration of self/cessation of suffering the complete eradication of everything it means to be human? "

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As for "What I am specifically interested in is: for those who have realized Anatta, what is your experience of meaning? How are your relationships? Children, partners, etc?

Is the cost of the obliteration of self/cessation of suffering the complete eradication of everything it means to be human? "

Anyone whose relationship deteriorated and find life to be meaningless after some shift can be 100% sure of one thing: that certainly wasn't anatta realization at all, certainly not the kind spoken of in AtR.

Although anatta is not a magical pill that makes all problems of life go away (e.g. if you have physical illness you still need to see doctor, if you have poverty you still need to work hard to earn money, and so on), your relation to others and life will surely improve drastically and things will just improve.

For example:

“IMO there is no further, it is the depth of how deep and how much the self is released regardless of what path is taken. I am not a teacher, there may be other ways… … Dealing with the mind, energy and awareness is a complex journey. There is the safe way and the dangerous way. The way is quite straightforward but the mind uncontented will look for shortcuts as it wants more. But that is usual… lol. There are those that want others to know about it and wrote about it and there are those that are not into this.

Soh has written a lot and visited many masters that can probably share with you better.

As for me, my path is simple. It is just plainly and simply opening myself in my work, seeing my family and children enjoy… ever tasting these natural expressions. I find them miraculous yet ordinary, others may not and look for more. So I am unable to tell them anything further.” - John Tan, 2019

“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural [tendency] to explore in [various] arena[s] and enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I [am] involve[d] in Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga.... I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan, 2019

“Just met a friend yesterday who recently started meditating. His girlfriend joked that he might be becoming a monk. I told him that besides the daily sitting meditation (which is very important even after anatman realization, let alone before - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../how-silent...), practice is mostly and very much in daily life and engagement rather than in some remote region in the mountains, it is about living a life in the marketplace that is spontaneously beneficial for oneself and others around, and joyful, rather than one that is miserable. It is fully engaged and free.

Zen Master Bernie Glassman said,

“At its deepest, most basic level, Zen—or any spiritual path, for that matter—is much more than a list of what we can get from it. In fact, Zen is the realization of the oneness of life in all its aspects. It’s not just the pure or “spiritual” part of life: it’s the whole thing. It’s flowers, mountains, rivers, streams, and the inner city and homeless children on Forty-second Street. It’s the empty sky and the cloudy sky and the smoggy sky, too. It’s the pigeon flying in the empty sky, the pigeon shitting in the empty sky, and walking through the pigeon droppings on the sidewalk. It’s the rose growing in the garden, the cut rose shining in the vase in the living room, the garbage where we throw away the rose, and the compost where we throw away the garbage. Zen is life—our life. It’s coming to the realization that all things are nothing but expressions of myself. And myself is nothing but the full expression of all things. It’s a life without limits. There are many different metaphors for such a life. But the one that I have found the most useful, and the most meaningful, comes from the kitchen. Zen masters call a life that is lived fully and completely, with nothing held back, “the supreme meal.” And a person who lives such a life—a person who knows how to plan, cook, appreciate, serve, and offer the supreme meal of life, is called a Zen cook.”

“But why does a venerable elder such as yourself waste time doing the hard work of a head cook?” Dogen persisted. “Why don’t you spend your time practicing meditation or studying the words of the masters?” The Zen cook burst out laughing, as if Dogen had said something very funny. “My dear foreign friend,” he said, “it’s clear you do not yet understand what Zen practice is all about. When you get the chance, please come and visit me at my monastery so we can discuss these matters more fully.” And with that, he gathered up his mushrooms and began the long journey back to his monastery. Dogen did eventually visit and study with the Zen cook in his monastery, as well as with many other masters. When he finally returned to Japan, Dogen became a celebrated Zen master. But he never forgot the lessons he learned from the Zen cook in China.”

- Zen Master Bernie Glassman” - Soh, 2019

“In Zen, enlightenment implies full integration into activities. Any lack of such insight is not 'enlightenment in Zen'.” - John Tan, 2010

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AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

How silent meditation helped me with nondual inquiry

How silent meditation helped me with nondual inquiry

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Also, some excerpts from those who attained 'actual freedom' of the AFT website:

'Man from Sydney'

http://actualfreedom.com.au/becomingfree.../sydneyreport.htm

It was all over in about 2 seconds. I experienced an utter stillness in my mind and all around me right afterwards. The stillness was so strong it was virtually palpable. There was an ease and effortlessness in the body and mind, which was different from the somewhat keyed up quality of a PCE. ‘I’ was not there anywhere remotely. I felt like a newborn baby, so fresh and exquisitely sensitive to the universe around me. It was odd having my thoughts not linked to any being in the centre. They seemed like they were disconnected and just floating around me. All of this smoothed out in the next few days and became increasingly coherent and natural, as I adjusted to the newly free state.

That night I was so excited I found it hard to sleep. I was just walking around in the dark experiencing this night-time wonderland completely unencumbered. I knew I couldn’t be 100% sure I was actually free. But this was nothing like anything else I had ever experience before. I had to sleep on it and give it time. I woke up the next day, expecting that it may be gone but that stillness and lack of being was still remarkably evident. My chest felt clean – like a breezy hollow. The usual morning flood of turbulent emotions on waking were gone. A number of times, I tried to trigger myself with all manner of things as I didn’t want to fool myself, but there was not a trace of being anywhere in sight and I knew it. And things have just got better and better since then. I cannot tell you just how amazing and incredible it is to be here in this actual world.

http://actualfreedom.com.au/actu.../actualvineeto/sydney.htm

"RESPONDENT: Dear Vineeto and Richard,

I have just posted up a report on Slack [actualist discussion group] and Yahoo Groups. I have been actually free since Nov 3rd 2018 and wanted to write you both and thank you for did for ‘me’ over the years that eventually allowed me to escape my fate and fulfil my destiny. Or perhaps I should say appreciate all you have done since there is no feeling of indebtedness anymore  […]

It is so deliciously amazing being here now. It is totally unimaginable and unbelievable as Richard has correctly said. It is quite freaky sometimes how giganormously vast this universe is such that it takes my breath away. I get intimations of infinitude and I am sure the definitive experience of it is on the horizon. I feel like my brain has been ‘uncapped’ and the magnificent universe – as oppose to ‘self’ and ‘other’ is my preoccupation. My body and mind are sometimes suffused with pleasure and expansiveness such that it is too much and I have to back away! I’ve been having a whale of a time just living my life for the last month or so. I’ve been having a fantastic time also comparing notes with Geoffrey and No 9(AF). The relationship with my girlfriend is like night and day. I’m like this big happy kid, that wants for her happiness. There is a delicious intimacy. Prior to this I was a grudging boyfriend, who often tolerated her and occasionally felt guilty enough to try and make a romantic gesture.

I would love to hear more about being fully free. But for now I am content to just enjoy and enjoy some more. The utter safety, spaciousness and stillness I am experiencing is truly something remarkable.

Yours actually "

Although Actual Freedom is not Buddhism, you may find his journey from I AM to No Self interesting, Richard: http://actualfreedom.com.au/.../abriefpersonalhistory.htm

ACTUALFREEDOM.COM.AU

Man from Sydney - Report of Becoming Free

Man from Sydney - Report of Becoming Free

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मैले मेरी आमालाई लेखें:

चिनियाँबाट अंग्रेजीमा अनुवाद:

ज़ेन [कोआन] को प्रश्न सोध्नु भनेको हाम्रो वास्तविक अनुहार के हो, हाम्रो स्व-स्वभाव के हो भनेर सोध्नु हो, यो ध्यानको अवस्था प्राप्त गर्नु बारे होइन।

बरु, यो हाम्रो स्व-स्वभाव/चेतना के हो भन्ने कुरा पत्ता लगाउने, महसुस गर्ने विषय हो। ‘स्व-प्राप्ति’ कहलिनको लागि पूर्ण शंका रहितताको अवस्था प्राप्त गर्नुपर्छ।

सबै विचारहरूको पूर्ण अन्त्यपछि, आफ्नो प्रकाशलाई फर्काएर पत्ता लगाउनु पर्छ, म को हुँ? के हो यो जो जानिरहेको छ? यदि कुनै विचारले ‘यो हो वा त्यो हो’ भनी जवाफ दिन्छ भने त्यो गलत हो, किनभने वास्तविक उत्तर शब्द र अक्षरहरूमा छैन। त्यसैले ती विचारहरूलाई त्यागेर सोध्न जारी राख्नुहोस्, आफ्नो चेतनाको प्रकाशलाई भित्र फर्काउनुहोस्। यो आफ्नो मनलाई बुझ्नको लागि सबैभन्दा प्रत्यक्ष विधि हो।

तपाईँले हरेक दिन ध्यान गर्नुपर्छ। गुरु युआन यिनले आफ्ना शिष्यहरूलाई दिनमा दुई घण्टा ध्यान गर्न भन्नुहुन्छ।

यदि तपाईँ आफ्नो मनलाई विचाररहित अवस्थामा शान्त गर्न असमर्थ हुनुहुन्छ भने, यो महसुस गर्न गाह्रो हुनेछ। तपाईँले ध्यानपूर्वक विचार गर्नुपर्छ कि आफ्नो मनलाई शान्त गर्न तपाईँको लागि सबैभन्दा राम्रो विधि के हो? के यो ध्यान हो? वा बुद्धको नाम जप्नु र मन्त्रहरू पाठ गर्नु हो? जुनसुकै विधिले मनलाई शान्त पार्छ, तर तपाईँले हरेक दिन अभ्यास गर्नुपर्छ, केवल कहिलेकाहीँ वा समय समयमा मात्र होइन।

तर, विचाररहित अवस्थामा पुग्नु नै जागरण होइन। विचाररहित अवस्थामा पुगेपछि, आफ्नो प्रकाशलाई फेरि फर्काएर पत्ता लगाउनुहोस् त्यो स्पष्ट जान्ने व्यक्ति को हो? के हो यो? त्यसपछि तपाईँले आफ्नो चित्तको सारलाई (स्पष्टता पक्ष) महसुस गर्नुहुनेछ। अन्यथा, तपाईँको ध्यान केवल एक स्थिरताको अवस्था मात्र हुनेछ, चित्तको सारलाई (स्पष्टता पक्ष) नबुझीकन।

चित्तको सारलाई (स्पष्टता पक्ष) महसुस गर्नु भनेको केवल आफ्नो चित्तलाई बुझ्नु हो; यो अझै चित्त र घटनाहरूको स्वभाव (चित्तता र धर्मता) लाई बुझ्नु होइन, जुन चित्त र धर्महरूको शून्यता हो। त्यसैले तपाईँले जारी राख्नुपर्छ।

यसकारण, ‘चित्तलाई बुझ्नु र स्वभावलाई महसुस गर्नु’ दुई भागहरूमा विभाजित छ: पहिले आफ्नो सत्य चित्तलाई बुझ्नुहोस्, त्यसपछि चित्त र घटनाहरूको शून्यता स्वभावलाई महसुस गर्नुहोस्।

यसकारण, चित्त र घटनाहरूको स्वभाव (स्व-रूप र धर्महरूको शून्यता) लाई बुझ्न र महसुस गर्न कडा अभ्यास गर्नुहोस्।

छैंटौं च’आन पिताले भने: “वास्तविक चित्तलाई नचिनीकन धर्म सिक्नु व्यर्थ छ।”

I wrote to my mother:

English translation from Chinese:

Contemplating Zen [Koan] is about inquiring what exactly is our original face, what is our Self-Nature, it is not about achieving a meditative state.

It is rather to discover, to realize, what exactly is our Self-Nature/Awareness. One must reach a state of utter doubtlessness/certainty to be considered '[Self-Realization]'.

After the utter cessation of all thoughts, one must turn one's light around to find out, What am I? What is it that is Aware? If there is a thought which answers 'it is this or that' then that's wrong, because the real answer lies not in words and letters. Therefore cast aside those thoughts and continue inquiring, turning the light around. This is the most direct method to apprehend one's Mind.

You should meditate everyday. Master Yuan Yin asks his students to meditate two hours a day.

If you are unable to quiet your mind to a state of no-thought, it will be difficult to realise. You should think carefully what is the best method for you to still your mind? Is it meditation? Or is it chanting the Buddha's name and reciting mantras? Whatever methods which calms the mind will do, but you have to practice everyday, not only practice intermittently or occasionally.

However, reaching a state of no-thought is not awakening. Upon reaching a state of no-thought, continue turning the light around to find out Who is that which is the Clear Knowingness? What is it? Then you will realise your Self-Nature. Otherwise your meditation is merely a state of stillness, not yet realising Self-Nature.

Realizing Self-Nature is only Apprehending one's Mind, it is not yet realizing Nature [the nature of mind and phenomena] (the principle of the twofold emptiness of persons and phenomena as realized by a first bhumi Bodhisattva), therefore one must continue. Hence, "Apprehending Mind and Realising Nature" consists of two parts: first apprehend one's Mind (True Mind), later realize [Empty] Nature.

Therefore practice hard to Apprehend Mind and Realize Nature.

The Sixth Ch'an Patriarch said: It is useless to learn the dharma without recognising original Mind.

Someone recently revealed to me the identity of the person responsible for creating those misleading videos.

Here was my response:

I have never gotten the impression that Mr. X possessed genuine insight or understanding. Yes, Angelo has realized anatta, but as I mentioned earlier, Ms S certainly has not. Mr E had glimpses in the past but not realisation, though I’m uncertain about his current state.

Be cautious about believing anyone who talks about "no self." Many are just talking about dry non doership, impersonality, nondual experiences, etc. As I've stated before, 99% of those who speak about the experience or insight of "no self" are far from the anatta of AtR or the anatta realization in Buddhadharma.

They haven’t even realized the I AM, let alone attained a genuine realization of anatta. There is a lot of misinformation online, the internet is full of misleading and delusional claims not just on YouTube but also on platforms like Reddit. Even in this group, it happens from time to time that some people openly present themselves as realised when they are essentially just deluding themselves. In the past I just let it slip, but now we have a new rule and any claims will never go unchallenged.

As Krodha/Kyle Dixon once said:

“The streamentry sub is full of people who overvalue their own meditation insights and experiences. Most claiming to be stream entrants who are not.”

(Comments by Soh: On the real definition of stream entry, see Reddit Thread and AtR Article: Insight Buddhism Reconsideration)

Kyle continues:

“There are probably no srotapannas there. From reading that sub over a decade it is essentially just full of people deluding themselves.

Some nice meditation experiences, sure. But actual stream entrants? Definitely not.”

"It is quite rare to attain stream entry, I’ve been involved with dharma for over a decade and can count those who are tried and true stream entrants on one hand. That said, contemplate the Bahiya and Kalakarama suttas and cultivate the first dhyāna."

Mr Z said: "He has quoted Rob Burbea several times 'We’re not trying to destroy the sense of self, where trying to understand something about it”. He claims Angelo and others have taken it a step too far."

Soh replied:

Rob Burbea is not correct here. Buddhism does destroy the sense of self, but only at an advanced phase of one's practice.

Destroying the sense of self is part and parcel of overcoming the third and eighth fetters of Buddha’s teachings (I am not speaking here of Kevin Shanilec’s version which I consider to be not exactly the same as Buddha's definitions but that's another story).

However the way the fetters are destroyed is not through forcing it out. That cannot be done.

As John Tan said:

"...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising."

"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another form of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force yourself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."

~ Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)

So if that is what Rob Burbea meant, then he is correct. However, if he meant that the sense of self will forever be around, then it is clearly wrong, and he is clearly at odds with the Buddhist scriptures from Theravada to Mahayana and Vajrayana. Sense of self will indeed vanish without a trace in true liberation. Also see: Buddhahood: End of all emotional/mental suffering

Buddha or arahants will still be able to respond to someone calling his name, but it does not mean he/she has a sense of self.

Scriptural References

"Would an arahant say 'I' or 'mine'?" (Source: AccessToInsight)

Other devas had more sophisticated queries. One deva, for example, asked the Buddha if an arahant could use words that refer to a self:

"Consummate with taints destroyed,
One who bears his final body,
Would he still say 'I speak'?
And would he say 'They speak to me'?"

This deva realized that arahantship means the end of rebirth and suffering by uprooting mental defilements; he knew that arahants have no belief in any self or soul. But he was puzzled to hear monks reputed to be arahants continuing to use such self-referential expressions.

The Buddha replied that an arahant might say "I" always aware of the merely pragmatic value of common terms:

"Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions."

The deva, trying to grasp the Buddha's meaning, asked whether an arahant would use such expressions because he is still prone to conceit. The Buddha made it clear that the arahant has no delusions about his true nature. He has uprooted all notions of self and removed all traces of pride and conceit:

"No knots exist for one with conceit cast off;
For him all knots of conceit are consumed.
When the wise one has transcended the conceived
He might still say 'I speak,'
And he might say 'They speak to me.'
Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions." (KS I, 21-22; SN 1:25)

And here's another better translation (SN 1.25):

Question: When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: would they say, ‘I speak’, or even ‘they speak to me’?”

The Buddha replied: “When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: they would say, ‘I speak’, and also ‘they speak to me’. Skillful, understanding the world’s conventions, they’d use these terms as no more than expressions.”

Question: “When a mendicant is perfected, proficient, with defilements ended, bearing the final body: is such a mendicant drawing close to conceit if they’d say, ‘I speak’, or even ‘they speak to me’?”

The Buddha replied: “Someone who has given up conceit has no ties, the ties of conceit are all dissipated. Though that intelligent person has transcended substantial reality, they’d still say, ‘I speak’, and also ‘they speak to me’. Skillful, understanding the world’s conventions, they’d use these terms as no more than expressions.”

Lastly, another sharing of an excerpt of Buddha's discourse in MN 140:

29. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, should cultivate relinquishment, and should train for peace.’

30. “‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

31. “Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and is not agitated. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he be agitated?

32. “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these [foundations], and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ Bhikkhu, bear in mind this brief exposition of the six elements.”

The Buddha said: Blissful is passionlessness in the world, The overcoming of sensual desires (i.e. anagami); But the abolition of the conceit "I am" (i.e. arahantship) — That is truly the supreme bliss.

Also, the Buddha said:

He said: "[he] has called out you and Angelo several times as preaching an unhealthy, inhumane form of no-self that does not represent the middle way"

Soh replied:

He does not understand the approach and impact of insight nor the anatta insight. Depression and shadows can be released through genuine insight into anatta and emptiness but he does not have these insights at all.

See Pam Tan's Anatta Realisation and Purging

Our admin Tommy said, “These people should speak to me: Former opiate addicted, chain smoking, SSRI-filled, delusional mess. If I'm deluding myself and dissociating then my ability to fabricate experience must be absolutely amazing. 🤣🤣🤣”

Related article: Good book on healing trauma and nondual realization

Update: Tommy shared:

Good video by Angelo. Also see my comments below.

As another admin pointed out, “X is stuck in non-doership and believes anatta is some sort of ego-death.”

I also wrote, "havent watched both videos yet but Z said “X is stuck in non-doership and believes anatta is some sort of ego-death.”

Thats also been my impression with him

99% of people who speak about no self dont go beyond these

They havent even realised I AM or radiance, let alone nondual, or anatta. But many just think it is anatta

The dunning kruger effect is strong for so many people. This is why i put an end to all the unchecked attainment announcing in atr group rules.. otherwise there will just be endless nonsense one after another and countless people misled"

On the different faces of self/Self and 'no self' experiences and insights, see my article Different Degrees of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

Yet another admin pointed out, "From what Angelo and others have said, I'm guessing he's programmed himself into dissociation and depersonalization, like XYZ did, and now thinks that everyone else has done the same thing."

Also, anyone who mistakes anatta with some sort of ego death state clearly hasn't been reading AtR at all.

See Anatta is a Dharma Seal

Excerpt:

"First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).

To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically.

John Tan adds: "This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept.""

Also, see my recent new article that I made into a 'Must Read' article featured on the Must Read list in AtR blog: "Genuine Realisation is Rare, Most Claimants are Delusional"

p.s. there is a related discussion at the thread Gross Misunderstandings about Anatta

Update:

Person A says, “I agree so much with Angelo and Jac o Keefe also says wait 5 years before maturing to teach. Her Association for Spiritual Integrity helped me as I had a terrible experience in Portugal with a teacher kind of linked to Andrew Cohen ( which I didn’t know about before I joined). So happy this happened and for this clarifying video as we need ethics here in teaching.”

Person B replies, “5 years sounds like a minimum time, notwithstanding some people have been on the path about 20 years and aren’t teaching or interested in teaching. One’s motivation for teaching really needs a good look at also.”

Soh replied,

“five years and twenty years are not enough if they remain confused, lack any true insights, or insights are not mature.

These people need to learn and study under truly awakened masters and teachers, and not be teaching and misleading others.

And i can assure you that without proper guidance and pointers, many will not make any progress despite whatever length of time”

“Excerpt from my article Finding Awakened Spiritual Teacher

…Bodhidharma, esteemed as the first patriarch of Chan/Zen, marking him as a foundational and transformative figure in the lineage and teachings of this tradition, emphasizes the crucial role of a teacher in the journey towards enlightenment. In his teachings, he states,

"To find a Buddha, you have to see your nature. Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha. If you don’t see your nature, being mindful of Buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings, and keeping precepts are not equal to it. Being mindful of Buddhas results in good karma, reciting sutras results in a good intelligence; keeping precepts results in a good rebirth in heavens, and making offerings results in future blessings — but no buddha. If you don’t understand by yourself, you’ll have to find a teacher to know the root of births and deaths. But unless he sees his nature, such a person isn’t a good teacher. Even if he can recite the twelve groups of scriptures he can’t escape the Wheel of Births and Deaths. He suffers in the three realms without hope of release. Long ago, the monk Good Star was able to recite the twelve groups of scriptures. But he didn’t escape the Wheel, because he didn’t see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite a few sutras or shastras and think it’s the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your own Heart, reciting so much prose is useless.

To find a Buddha have to see your nature directly. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who’s free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don’t see your nature and run outwards to seek for external objects, you’ll never find a buddha. The truth is there’s nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a good teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand. Life and death are important. Don’t suffer them in vain.

There’s no advantage in deceiving yourself. Even if you have mountains of jewels and as many servants as there are grains of sand along the Ganges, you see them when your eyes are open. But what about when your eyes are shut? You should realize then that everything you see is like a dream or illusion. If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But without the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.

People who don’t understand and think they can do so without study are no different from those deluded souls who can’t tell white from black.” Falsely proclaiming the Buddha-Dharma, such persons in fact blaspheme the Buddha and subvert the Dharma. They preach as if they were bringing rain. But theirs is the preaching of devils not of Buddhas. Their teacher is the King of Devils and their disciples are the Devil’s minions. Deluded people who follow such instruction unwittingly sink deeper in the Sea of Birth and Death.

Unless they see their nature, how can people call themselves Buddhas they’re liars who deceive others into entering the realm of devils. Unless they see their nature, their preaching of the Twelvefold Canon is nothing but the preaching of devils. Their allegiance is to Mara, not to the Buddha. Unable to distinguish white from black, how can they escape birth and death?

Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha; whoever doesn’t is a mortal. But if you can find your buddha-nature apart from your mortal nature, where is it? Our mortal nature is our Buddha nature. Beyond this nature there’s no Buddha. The Buddha is our nature. There’s no Buddha besides this nature. And there’s no nature besides the Buddha."

Also, Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche said:

“If you wish to eradicate your afflictions, you must follow your teacher and study for a long time. Otherwise, studying for only a few days will not have any significant effect ... Some people today are not willing to study or reflect on the Dharma, but they are enthusiastic about meditation. They believe meditating all day with their eyes shut is the ultimate practice. I do not think much of this. Although there are people of the highest caliber who attain enlightenment without study or reflection, are you of such caliber? Therefore, you cannot live in a cave or another completely isolated place when you first start to practice. Instead, you should be with a qualified Dharma teacher and earnestly receive the Buddhadharma; it is best if you are always engaged in study, reflection, and practice. Of course, I am not asking you to study and reflect for a lifetime without ever practicing. But to spend an entire life in blind meditation without any study or reflection is also the wrong path!“”

“Another admin said after me,

“Yeah would be nice if time was a deciding factor on maturity in this context

Sadly not the case

E.g., Jax”

Soh wrote to Mr W who claims his teacher is a Buddha:

First, I’m wary of the claim that in your sangha there are “10 anatta realizers,” because it’s very easy to misjudge the depth of one’s own insight. In the old AtR group, most self-proclaimed “anatta realizers” were, on closer inspection, experiencing little more than impersonality or non-doership—and at most only a basic non-dual state—rather than the authentic insight into anatman. This was true even of people who said they had studied the AtR articles. But this is not surprising to me and is consistent with my observations elsewhere, as I wrote here (Different Degrees of No-Self):

“When someone says they have broken through to no-self, 95 % to 99 % of the time they are talking about impersonality or non-doership—not even non-duality, much less the genuine realization of anatman.”

I’ve also met viewers who assume that everyone Angelo interviews has realized anatman, which is plainly not the case. To be fair, Angelo has never claimed he interviews only anatman realizers; the confusion lies with the audience.

Even if a few of the ten people you mention really have realized anatman (I can’t judge, since I don’t know the list), they can still be mistaken about the scope of their attainment. Not long ago Frank Yang, for instance, believed that anatman realization equals arahantship—a misconception traceable to Daniel Ingram’s teachings. In reality, as I explained here (Insight Buddhism Reconsideration), anatman insight corresponds at most to stream-entry, and that is provided that one has clearly realized dependent origination, which I am not certain if Frank has (see: Buddhist vs. Non-Buddhist Views and Insights of Anātman/Anattā). I’m not sure whether Frank still equates anatman with arahantship; if he does, it remains very misleading.

Sadly, people often inflate their early attainments into Arahatship or Buddhahood—what John Tan once called “blowing one’s horn after some realization and trumpeting a minor insight way out of proportion.” It would be funny were it not so misleading.

And that’s assuming they have even realized anatman. As I noted in “Genuine Realisation is Rare, Most Claimants are Delusional” (Link), and as Kyle Dixon observes, “The streamentry subreddit is full of people who overvalue their own meditation experiences. Most who claim stream-entry aren’t stream-entrants.”

“There are probably no srotapannas there. From reading that sub over a decade it is essentially just full of people deluding themselves.

Some nice meditation experiences, sure. But actual stream entrants? Definitely not.”

"It is quite rare to attain stream entry, I’ve been involved with dharma for over a decade and can count those who are tried and true stream entrants on one hand. That said, contemplate the Bahiya and Kalakarama suttas and cultivate the first dhyāna."

I’ve seen posters there proclaiming arahantship who, in fact, have virtually no realization at all—or at most the initial I Am awakening. (I’m not implying this about your sangha; it’s simply a general observation.) Unfortunately, such overstatement is a telling sign of the dharma-ending age.

There was also a couple practicing Dzogchen who mistook their attainment of the “second vision” (the stage before the first bhūmi) for the exhaustion of dharmatā (Buddhahood). They then publicly shared their visions and paintings, proclaiming they had completed the path. Delusional figures like this abound in the spiritual marketplace. In my view, it’s wise to remain cautious and discerning, and not be easily swayed by such claims.

I agree that a teacher is important (for reasons explained in Finding Awakened Spiritual Teacher), although I would be wary of any claims to Buddhahood. No offense to Mr. W but it is just good general advise to be careful when choosing a guru, this applies to all teachers and not just any particular ones discussed in this group.

Shared before:

Soh:

"In one of your sub posts you said most gurus are abusive. I disagree, I think most gurus are not abusive, but some indeed are. However it is the duty of all students to choose their guru wisely and carefully. You should not blindly follow any gurus but examine them first, have some criterias to select. For example, Dzogchen texts gives a list of criterias to select a guru.

Kyle Dixon (krodha) shared on Reddit before:

"In the Rig pa rang shar tantra, chapter 9, the attributes of a qualified teacher are listed:

The master of the intimate instructions that possesses the vajra meaning has a positive attitude, is skillful in teaching, has obtained the empowerments, applies the meaning of Secret Mantra, understands all the inner and outer activities, is inseparable from the meditation deity, remains undistracted in samadhi, is knowledgable in the secret tantras of Secret Mantra, possesses the meaning of the intimate instructions of the Great Perfection, engages in all outer and inner sadhanas, [18b] never leaves the meaning of the view, gives up outer, inner, and secret activities, is endowed with qualities like a precious jewel, and enjoys an inexhaustible treasury. With the cord of compassion unsevered and the stream of affection uninterrupted, the master and disciple are thus connected.

A “master” to avoid is described as follows:

A master lacking a connection with a lineage of scholars, who is self-important, stupid, literal-minded, who does not understand the meaning of Secret Mantra, has harsh words for others, is boastful, has entered false paths, has not seen the mandala of the empowerment, disregards samaya, [18/a] is unable to answer questions, has little learning, and great pride — such an unexamined master is a māra for the disciple. He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati. Do not associate with such a person.

Jigme Lingpa comments on the above excerpt regarding the unqualified teacher:

As it says, do not get involved with such a demonic master.

Longchenpa, in his own response to the above excerpt from the rig pa rang shar (regarding the unqualified teacher), states:

Accordingly, I advise you to avoid them.

The kun byed rgyal po tantra states:

The inauthentic master teaches scripture like a monkey, his false path beset with concepts.

And regarding the qualified teacher it goes on to say:

The master who displays the truth is a precious treasury worth an inestimable price.

Jigme Lingpa continues:

This tantra [rig pa rang shar] also speaks of six characteristics:

[i] having put all samsaric phenomena behind him, [ii] having few desires and being content, [iii] being skilled in practice and having had experiences, [iv] being learned in the meanings of the tantras and having striven to accomplish them, [v] being learned in the meaning of the view and being completely capable with it, and [vi] having great compassion and being happy in renunciation.

One with the complete set of these qualities is said to be necessary. If, on the other hand, he is merely an effigy of whom it is said This one is a wonderful source of miracles, This one holds an unsurpassable rank, and This one is a sacred object of worship and harmony with worldly people, then he is not [a genuine teacher].

More from Jamgon Köngtrul:

Avoid a master whose traits are discordant with those of a true teacher; But since a fully qualified master is rare, follow the one who is replete with good qualities.

A teacher whose traits are discordant with the characteristics of the [true] master stands outside of the Buddhist doctrine and connot be taken as a spiritual teacher. Consequently, even though the teacher may be very famous, active, etc., the discriminating student should be aware [of these shortcomings] and detach him or herself [from the teacher]. This should be done even if a teacher-student relationship has already been formed. If one has not yet formed such a relationship, one should avoid doing so, right from the beginning.

Sakya Pandita states:

Detach yourself from the spiritual teacher
Who does not conform to the Buddha's teaching.

We should learn how to recognize [bad teachers] from the many descriptions given in the scriptures and then shun them. For example, the Condensed Tantra [of the wheel of Time] states:

Proud, subject to uncontrollable anger, defiant of pledges, guilty of misappropriation, ignorant [of the doctrine], willfully deceptive of students, having failed to enter the state of supreme bliss, uninitiated, a slave to wealth and enjoyments, careless, rude in speech, and obsessed with sexual desire: wise students who wish full awakening should shun such a teacher as they would hell.

Because we are living in a [degenerate] age, we very rarely meet a teacher endowed with all of the necessary qualifications. Since we may never meet such a teacher, we should accept a master who has many good qualities and very few weaknesses. [Pundarika's] Ultimate Familiarization states:

In this age of conflict, spiritual masters will exhibit both faults and virtues; not one is absolutely irreproachable. Therefore, examine well even those who excel in virtue before beginning to study with them."

"

Has so-and-so realised anatta in AtR? (2022 Archive)

(Note: I recently rediscovered this draft I wrote in 2022 which is relevant to the current discussion.)

This is something I've been wanting to write for some time but finally got around to it.

There is a reason why I do not release my list of people I wrote in a text document over the years on people I think have realised anatta in the AtR group. Even if I was 80 to 90% correct, it can't be all correct. And it would be misleading to release these names. There have been a few cases in the past where people talked about realising no-self, but upon probing, later it was found that such a person is talking about impersonality, or an experience of non-dual, or a state of no mind, or has not thoroughly overcome the view of one mind, has not truly and deeply penetrated self/Self, and so on. Or possibly even fallen into a conceptual and intellectual understanding of no-self.

So please, let it be known that Soh, John Tan, and AtR do not officially authenticate, authorize, confirm, or endorse anyone's realisations. Soh and John Tan are not spiritual teachers or gurus (we have made that abundantly clear many times), have no students, do not represent any lineage, and present information here just as-is for the benefit of readers that find benefit in them. Furthermore, we often recommend people to find greatly awakened teachers from a proper lineage (related: Special Post Listing Teachers That We Trust). Readers should do their own due diligence in finding out whether a teacher or person has truly realised a given realisation if they wish to work with them.

Now, hypothetically, if I was a teacher representing a lineage (I'm not!), I would definitely have to converse and work with a certain student for many years, with back and forth conversations one-on-one so that I can have an intimate understanding on the student's progression, experience, and insights and their effects on everyday experience. I wouldn't carelessly declare that such and such a person has realised X and Y only to later be mistaken about it, just because someone was able to write a very nice piece of writing or description about no-self based on a one-off experience or insight.

Of relevance to this topic here, John Tan said to me two months ago:

31 JANUARY 2022

John Tan: Person A must be guided properly.

Soh: I see.. how should she be guided?

1 FEBRUARY 2022

John Tan: She is in anatta and overjoyed by her insight. 🤣

"Not bad, however not exactly "natural state" yet but it is the beginning of the direct insight into "natural state". To be fully "natural" and "spontaneous", both self and phenomena, arising and ceasing must all be de-constructed thoroughly.

When sitting, there is no "body" and "no one" sitting. Only the sensation dancing. The "butt" that touches the "floor" forms the sensation of "hardness and firmness" -- the earth element. Now, don't think but feel the sensation of "hardness and firmness", feel the earth element in anatta; so vividly and solidly present, now ask: where are all these sensations? So solidly and undeniably "appears" but "where"?

Happy anatta during CNY! 👍"

Also paste her the 2 fold emptiness when I talk to you about Daniel Ingram... I forgot where is the link.

Soh: I see. You replied where? Oh ok, saw it.

John Tan: Don't just say people have reached anatta insight... 🤦‍♂️

Soh: I see.. but she has realised right?

John Tan: Yes clearly there.

Soh: I see.. I think it's not very difficult to tell if someone has realised anatta 🤣 but I used to think X realised anatta and turned out wrong.

John Tan: Turn out a few are wrong. You still can't differentiate clearly. Because you posted so much, you can't really see from expressions; it is easy to associate certain experiences to the description of anatta without penetrating deep into the release. What is important is the releasing of the center self/Self via the insight in real-time. For you, you are looking at how people write... Don't go and post this again as if we are authenticating people's realization. I just don't want you to go around authenticating people like an anatta bot.

27 MARCH 2022

John Tan: I see. For you, everyone who expresses certain experiences is anatta. 🤣🤦‍♂️ Like you, not easy for Person A to find a teacher now. She would have to have teachers that have almost 3-4th vision in Dzogchen or anatta and emptiness insights into 3 states. Just associating with compassionate teachers and attend some talks is enough.

Here is what the Buddha said on such matters:

Ud 6.2 Jatila Sutta

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. Now at that time the Blessed One, having emerged from his seclusion in the late afternoon, was sitting outside the doorway. Then seven coiled-hair ascetics, seven Jain ascetics, seven naked ascetics, seven one-cloth ascetics, and seven wanderers their nails grown long, their body-hair grown long walked past not far from the Blessed One. King Pasenadi Kosala saw the seven coiled-hair ascetics, seven Jain ascetics, seven naked ascetics, seven one-cloth ascetics, and seven wanderers their nails grown long, their body-hair grown long — walking past not far from the Blessed One. On seeing them, he arranged his upper robe over one shoulder, knelt down with his right knee on the ground, saluted the ascetics with his hands before his heart, and announced his name to them three times: "I am the king, venerable sirs, Pasenadi Kosala. I am the king, venerable sirs, Pasenadi Kosala. I am the king, venerable sirs, Pasenadi Kosala." Then not long after the ascetics had passed, he returned to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Of those in the world who are arahants or on the path to arahantship, are these among them?"

"Your majesty, as a layman enjoying sensuality; living crowded with wives and children; using Kasi fabrics and sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, and creams; handling gold and silver, it is hard for you to know whether these are arahants or on the path to arahantship.

"It is through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It is through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It is through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It is through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning."

"How amazing, lord! How awesome! How well that was put by the Blessed One! 'Your majesty, as a layman enjoying sensuality; living crowded with wives and children; using Kasi fabrics and sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, and creams; handling gold and silver, it is hard for you to know whether these are arahants or on the path to arahantship.

"'It is through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"'It is through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"'It is through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"'It is through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.'

"These men, lord, are my spies, my scouts, returning after going out through the countryside. They go out first, and then I go. Now, when they have scrubbed off the dirt and mud, are well-bathed and well-perfumed, have trimmed their hair and beards, and have put on white clothes, they will go about endowed and provided with the five strings of sensuality."

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: One should not make an effort everywhere. One should not be another's hireling. One should not live dependent on another. One should not make the Dhamma a trade.

Tommy McNally:

I spoke to Daniel Ingram a while ago and we discussed something similar. He spent a lot of time on one-to-ones with people who'd claimed x, y or z attainments, and realised that almost all of them were wrong and probably hadn't even attained stream entry, even by MCTB standards. I may be misquoting the specific numbers, but I believe it was over 90%.

Sometimes people know the 'right' words to use and can present a convincing narrative to support their claims, but ultimately they're just deceiving themselves. I say this as someone who did exactly the same thing, so it frustrates me to see others fall into that same trap.

This is why I appreciate yours and John's refusal to engage in public "dharma diagnosis"; it's unfair to expect you to vouch for people you've never met, or engaged with for any length of time.