On Schizophrenia and Mental Health Issues
Soh

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    Soh Wei Yu

    On Schizophrenia and Mental Health Issues
    From time to time people with mental health issues join the AtR group. So I'll share some of my thoughts on this matter. First of all, these people should not practice alone without guidance. They should not try to do the inquiry and meditations on AtR blog especially without direct guidance of a qualified teacher. This is because these meditations or inquiries can be destabilizing on an already unstable mind if done incorrectly. Depending on conditions, light shamatha or mindfulness practice may be more beneficial than inquiry heavy forms of practices. But is spirituality of no value to these persons? No, in fact it can be quite important, especially guidance and help from a qualified master. Unfortunately I will not be able to offer any help on these matters. Afflicted persons should find an experienced master in their vicinity.
    I hold the same view as Yin Ling's (who is a Western medical doctor) and Acarya Malcolm Smith's (besides being a Dzogchen teacher, is also a trained and qualified Tibetan medicine practitioner) views, mental health issues like schizophrenia are often, or can be, spirit induced disorders. They are not just 'hallucinations' of the brain, these people may be accessing spirits of other realms. By all means, psychiatric help or medications are still necessary. But working with a qualified and experienced dharma teacher is also important.

    This reddit reply by VulcanVisions advices well:

    https://www.reddit.com/.../could_people_with_mental.../
    1 day agor/Buddhism•Posted byu/curemydepression

    Could people with mental health issues become enlightened?

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    Question
    Hi, I was wondering whether people with mental health issues such as sociopathy and psychopathy could become enlightened. I think it isnt possible, since to become enlightened the person must experience feelings and suffering to overcome this in the first place. Would like to know your opinions.
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    Tibetan BuddhistVulcanVisions· 1 day ago
    I am Tibetan and Buddhist, I also work in mental health in the West, I will give you my thoughts on this:
    We are born into physical, mortal bodies, which are mechanical in a sense and as a result of samsaric existence, anything can go wrong with these bodies
    From a neurochemical perspective, psychopathy is just one more thing that can go wrong with these bodies. It represents another suffering of samsara, another obstacle on the path to liberation, making awakening more difficult.
    Such things are determined by our karma, carried over from our endless rebirths - whilst beyond our comprehension, there is a reason we are where we are in this moment.
    Having psychopathy or schizophrenia makes the path more difficult, as does any illness such as cancer or diabetes, but it does not make it impossible.
    Several of the clients I work with have various forms of schizophrenia, and several of them are practicing Buddhist - there is nothing to stop them practicing.
    Now, as a religious Buddhist of the Nyingma school, I must say that I do not agree with the Western notions of mental illness. Whereas Western medicine holds that "patients" are ill and that doctors are "above" them in a sense in terms of being "healthy", I do not agree.
    Western philosophy as a whole has an air of superiority, and anything that does not pass its tests - such as firm atheism, scientism, and rationality - are immediately rejected as primitive or stupid.
    Whilst my clients hallucinating emaciated ghosts is interpreted in the medical model as a neurochemical brain imbalance, I personally believe that the client may be experiencing an attack by a preta, which in the Buddhist world can harass and feed from human emotions.
    Either way, the treatment is the same - we accept our situation, learn about dukkha, and practice the dharma.
    I myself had what in the West was called "hallucinations" of spirits, and Western medicine and therapy did nothing to treat this - when I reconnected with my Rinpoche and fully committed to the dharma, daily meditation practice made the "hallucinations" go away. I believe because I began to purify my bad karma.
    Apologies if this was a bit long, but hopefully made sense to you 🙏
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    Soh Wei Yu
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    Yin Ling shared before her encounters in her medical practices with schizophrenia people without Buddhist religious background but described classic Buddhist description of pretas behavior in their visions, such as "a small head and big stomach, and likes to inhale smell from her food", and many other various interesting and resembling descriptions.
    Also related reading, something I shared before, although this is not the Buddhist way of dealing with these issues but it's still an interesting read: https://uplift.love/the-shamanic-view-of-mental-illness/
    The Shamanic View of Mental Illness | UPLIFT
    The Shamanic View of Mental Illness | UPLIFTUPLIFT.LOVEThe Shamanic View of Mental Illness | UPLIFT

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    +1
    Yin Ling shared before her encounters in her medical practices with schizophrenia people without Buddhist religious background but described classic Buddhist description of pretas behavior in their visions, such as "a small head and big stomach, and likes to inhale smell from her food", and many other various interesting and resembling descriptions.
    Also related reading, something I shared before, although this is not the Buddhist way of dealing with these issues but it's still an interesting read: https://uplift.love/the-shamanic-view-of-mental-illness/
    The Shamanic View of Mental Illness | UPLIFT
    UPLIFT.LOVE
    The Shamanic View of Mental Illness | UPLIFT
    The Shamanic View of Mental Illness | UPLIFT
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  • Mr. OMA
    I went through a six realm course few months ago, l think from Bön tradition.
    When one gets insanely fixated on some pattern of behavior, one would call it kind of possession. In few cases this is actually what happens, that a spirit finds you and takes over.
    The ancient greeks would say just having ones conduct overruled by emotionsl patterns is enough to call it a kind of possession, so less heavy in a sense (no actual spirit) yet includes loads more of people on the planet, considering how many of us who are ruled by emotional patterns and habits.
    When l was living in a monastery in Nepal, they would do these kinds of exorsisms, it was pretty heartbreaking to see how people can become, and so l actually belive this to be possible for this to happen.
    Interesting thing l was told, is that christianity probably helped europe clean out a lot of these spirits (like if you read the Bible, Jesus did loads of exorsism), and l think its worse on other continents, as asian countries is only place l have seen this so clearly. (Meaning no offense hwre, just an observatiy).
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Mr. OMA Yes. Possessions are real. I know of a few people who had these experiences.
    A friend of mine, a very smart lawyer who is now starting his own law firm, and his whole family was Catholic including himself once. One day, he went to his friend's bar, and when he got out and went home, he became possessed at home. His whole family saw it. And it's not just his behaviours, the whole environment changed, like the wind and air around him when he was possessed, papers actually flew around him and his family could see there was a spirit 'entity' that was there, possessing him, and it's not just some sort of psychosis or something.
    Luckily, one of his friends introduced a Tibetan rinpoche, and this rinpoche completely eliminated his problems. And the rinpoche said this spirit actually followed him from outside. That was when he realised it could be from the bar, but he still wasn't sure. In any case, because of this incident, he converted to Buddhism and so did his whole family converted to Buddhism, and has been chanting Tara and Padmasambhava almost everyday since.
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    • Mr. KS
      Soh Wei Yu And how can we read this story on a ultimate view?
      Are demons codependent on the quality of our own mind?
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      • Soh Wei Yu
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        Mr. KS In these cases, they are not just 'internal demons' but mindstreams of sentient beings stuck in the preta realm.
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      • Soh Wei Yu
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        Mr. KS Of course, all beings, yourself and pretas are all empty of self.. but it does not deny conventionally speaking, preta beings, human beings, animals, your pet dog, etc
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      • Christoffer Sørensen
        Mr. KS usually entities attach because of internal issues. Like feeling powerless, then entities can attach due to the emotional weakness.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    He became sure it was the bar because like a year later, when he visited that same bar again, he got possessed again. But this time it wasn't serious I think. He's just sensitive to spirits, like that. Anyway I introduced him to a Tibetan dharma center (his other rinpoche does not speak english and I think is not residing here) when Zurmang Rinpoche visited Singapore earlier this year, and he formally took refuge and so on.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Forgot to mention: not only him, but his whole family converted from Catholicism to Buddhism due to that incident.
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    • Mr. OMA
      Soh Wei Yu thats hilarious the full converting 😆 maybe it was a buddhist deity in ninja missonary attack! But whatever works, it would be interesting to see the skills of yoga and dharma be used in todays psychiatric institutions. I think a lot of the medication is just doing the opposite 🙁
      Just yesterday l heard about a nurse at a Norwegian place who got hospilized in the hospitz she had used to work. I think ill will, and few other things finally made her a proper "host" for a spirit to get her.
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  • Yin Ling
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    Mr. OMA in Asian countries, psychotic behaviours will be known as possession.
    In western countries , they go and see the western doctors. If their behaviours become “threatening to public”, doctors have a right to “section” and admit them to a psychiatry institute, used to be call asylum. unless they are very fit to be integrated to society, they will be under close supervision, not even allow leave from the country, I’m speaking for UK.
    In Asian country we don’t do it so much. It’s very cultural.
    Perhaps why you see a difference in presentation. But I am aware I might be speaking from an echo chamber as well, being exposed to secondary/tertiary mental health and working in general practice. Mental health in uk is @.@ I don’t even know how to describe the magnitude.
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    • Mr. OMA
      Yin Ling yeah, but l have not met personally people in the west who showed the sort of spirit behavior l saw in Asia. I am sure there are people here though who does are equally possed (like in the message to Soh), certainly..
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      • Mr. OMA
        Or obviously, l don't mean to make an east west distinction here, you can be possessed wherever you live 👹
  • Soh Wei Yu
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    I also know of someone, a friend of a friend (but is someone I have met a few times also and he also related these to me in person), who once owned a kumanthong (a small Thai statue that was spell-bound to a child spirit from aborted foetuses to bring good luck to owners, quite common practice in Thailand and south east asia). His friend who didn't know he got kumanthong got possessed and behaved like a child spirit when that friend visited him at his place. He gave up the kumanthong afterwards, passed it on to someone else.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    "clean out a lot of these spirits" But as long as there are dead people, there are spirits. Even if exorcisms are done, they are still around, just maybe not in that house anymore.
    Excerpts:
    Author: krodha
    Date: Sat May 19, 2012 12:56 am
    Title: Haunted Areas and Localized Entities, Ghosts, Energy
    Content:
    I've always had a natural proclivity for sensing presences (seen or unseen) ever since I was young and
    it's always intrigued me. There's been times in the past (prior to my relationship with the dharma)
    when it's really plagued my peace of mind. When I was old enough to live away from home it started
    to become increasingly apparent because it would always be conditional on where I was living at the
    time. The first two places I lived were ok, but the third a house in alameda I could not be there alone
    at night. The fourth place was fine I could be there alone at anytime no problem. The fifth was an
    apartment in southern California which was horrendous, one of the most heavy and evil presences
    I've ever felt, I could not sleep there at night and would have to stay awake until the morning when I
    could finally sleep. The janitor at that apartment even said he hated to go in there to clean and
    would do it as fast possible. The next place back in san francisco was absolutely fine and that was the
    time I discovered the dharma.
    Presently where I live is fine, my sensitivity has increased with meditation and I'll have entities come
    into my room at night but they don't bother me I just know they're there. Same anytime a person
    comes into my room, if I'm sleeping I'll immediately awake.
    I do go running at night probably 4 or 5 nights a week and there is an entity which lives in the creek
    near my place. It's incredibly intense and powerful, seems very territorial. If I run directly on the
    sidewalk next to it, it will essentially blast me with intense energy which arises as profound fear I can
    feel throughout my body. There's been times when I've skipped running for awhile and after
    returning to it the first night back I'll be running and not be paying attention to the creek where upon
    getting too close, with no expectation I will literally be almost knocked off my feet. So it isn't a
    consciously induced manifestation created through an accumulation of fear towards that area. And I
    feel that now that it knows that I know it's there it messes with me even more. Needless to say after
    months of this I just run in the middle of the street when I get to that spot. The same creek connects
    to the road a quarter mile down the road and this thing will manifest again there and engage me.
    Whatever it is it's extremely powerful.
    Now getting to the point, I understand the emptiness of phenomena in relation to my pseudo
    subjective being. I usually am able to rationalize the emptiness of fear except for cases like this creek
    entity. I know that in chod it's said that these perceived negative entities are attached to our own
    continuum due to karmic debts etc... But what I don't understand is how are these projections
    confined to certain perceived areas? Why can't that energy in the creek leave the creek? Why is it so
    hostile? And what can be done to deal with energy/entities of that nature? If as I understand, it's an
    empty projection of mind, why is it localized to this certain area? I know that facing the fear and
    breaking down the projections like in chod is the correct route. Seeing the emptiness of the entity in
    relation to the fear. Emptiness of the fear in relation to deluded perception mistaken as "me". I've
    gotten to the point where integration has corrected most of these erroneous projections except for
    instances of direct hostile engagement like this creek thing. I rationalize that it's only a sensation
    interpreted as "fear" which is utterly empty, but that's easy to do when it's not breathing down my
    neck.
    I'm sure others here must have instances/occurrences like this? Any advice? Suggestions? Personal
    stories?
    Author: krodha
    Date: Sun May 20, 2012 4:12 am
    Title: Re: Haunted Areas and Localized Entities, Ghosts, Energy
    Content:
    There's no secondary effects, just the confrontation itself.
    Author: krodha
    Date: Sun May 20, 2012 5:19 am
    Title: Re: Haunted Areas and Localized Entities, Ghosts, Energy
    Content:
    Right that's what my inquiry was centered around; since it's a projection, why is it confined to that
    projected location? Why is it there sometimes (and very prevalent) and not present at all other times?
    Some nights it's not there at all. Sometimes I expect it and it's there. Sometimes I expect it and it's
    nowhere to be found. Sometimes don't expect it and it's there. There's been a couple times I've been
    able to jack my own energy up to such an extreme level that when it engages me I outshine it. So
    how are these projections able to manifest that way? It does manifest as fear yet the animalistic and
    territorial anger behind it is undeniable. It uses the energy like a bubble to push with. So I'm curious
    since it can't be other than a projection how such behavior is exhibited. It's actually not a problem
    really, it's fully confined to that area, if it was something in my experience all the time and causing
    lots of issues that'd be one thing. But since the projection is only associated with that area it's more
    intriguing than anything.
    I get that it's only fear. It's just the behaviorial and circumstantial characteristics that are interesting.
    Author: krodha
    Date: Sun May 20, 2012 8:35 am
    Title: Re: Haunted Areas and Localized Entities, Ghosts, Energy
    Content:
    I'm well aware of the emptiness of duration and location, emptiness of self and other (beyond the
    pale of intellectual constructs). I get that the expression is being imputed as a sensation which is
    further conceived to be fear and then posited to be "my" fear in an erroneous chain of ignorance, yet
    it doesn't fail to be intriguing. Cutting through is not so much a contrived act of severing
    identification with certain aspects of ignorance (such as duration/location), but involves setting up
    correct view (and abiding in that) so that it sets itself right. Afterall how could I cut through ignorance?
    Author: krodha
    Date: Sun May 20, 2012 4:35 pm
    Title: Re: Haunted Areas and Localized Entities, Ghosts, Energy
    Content:
    That was meant to be rhetorical but yes you're right, the contradictory conundrum being that the
    very I which seeks to cut (through ignorance) is the cornerstone of ignorance itself.
    Author: krodha
    Date: Sun May 20, 2012 5:36 pm
    Title: Re: Haunted Areas and Localized Entities, Ghosts, Energy
    Content:
    Anattā is the catalyst and cause of stream entry (I'm sure you know), which is more of an
    instantaneous occurrence. I'm not sure if stream entry can happen gradually... the gradual aspect
    would seem to be the cultivation of right view. The cultivation allows the seed to grow which may
    lead to the dawning of anattā. Right view involves skillful means though, because again, giving up the
    idea of personality is the idea of personality attempting to give itself up. I suppose the fetters can be
    weakened with right view, but they certainly are instantly obliterated in anattā.
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    • Mr. OMA
      Soh Wei Yu yeah, is not chöd a way to be buddies with these spirits. That way you might help them, and they do not feel like posseing you
      • Mr. OMA
        I also think almost all wrathful deities was at one point demons/ghosts etc.. that where converted.
      • Soh Wei Yu
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        Mr. OMA I once invited all spirits in the area to me and I try to help them. In my own ways.. don't want to discuss how cos I don't want to misguide people lol
        I felt they were helped, but next day I felt some other spirits came to me like for help. I "turned them away" and told them to visit a monastery.
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      • Mr. OMA
        Soh Wei Yu l have done tmsimilar things also in my own way.
  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Author: krodha
    Date: Sun May 20, 2012 6:05 pm
    Title: Re: Haunted Areas and Localized Entities, Ghosts, Energy
    Content:
    Would be interesting, perhaps an EMF detector or something of the like would be able to
    corroborate these happenings.
    There's 3 entities at my folks place too, a young girl whom I've seen in a twilight state while falling
    asleep, and my father has seen because she poked his back while he was in bed and when he turned
    over to look she giggled and floated into the corner where she vanished.
    There's another that my brother calls "the tall man" who just observes and is quiet. My brother
    hasn't seen him but knows that he's there and intuitively knows his height for some reason.
    According to my brother he likes to stand in the kitchen doorway and at night the cats and dog will
    usually become very alert and stare at that location for minutes on end. I've seen him once out of
    the corner of my eye and he is tall. My 3 year old son has seen him and mistook him to be me, he
    told me he saw me in one of the rooms and I walked into the closet.
    The scariest is an entity which only seems to be in my brothers old room, he's woken up twice to it.
    First time it was standing over his bed staring at him and he couldn't move (some type of sleep
    paralysis) and as soon as he was able to move his computer in the corner of the room turned on by
    itself. The second time he woke up and it was knelt by the edge of the bed waving its hands over his
    girlfriends head while she was sleeping, he was startled, lunged over and swung at it but it vanished.
    His girlfriend said she was having the most terrifying nightmares that night. My brother said it looks
    like Nosferatu, skinny pale face which comes to a point, eyes sunken-in to the point that they look
    like dark black empty holes, no hair, long boney pointy fingers. He said it was the same 'thing' both
    times he saw it. I've never seen it.
  • Mr. KS
    The actual work of Daniel Ingram and other people on EPRC aim to work with this. How to know what is spiritual access or mental problems?
    People like Willian James or Stan and Christina Grof in the past already began to outline questions and answers on this very delicate topic
    • Soh Wei Yu
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      Mr. KS A little unrelated, I remember Daniel Ingram related his own experience with exorcising demons
      2013:
      02:15, 17 Aug - John Tan: Dharma dan exorcised a demon from tarin interest
      02:15, 17 Aug - John Tan: ?
      02:16, 17 Aug - John Tan: Tarin got possessed by demon?
      02:18, 17 Aug - Soh Wei Yu: Ya dharma dan exorcised a demon from tarin
      02:18, 17 Aug - Soh Wei Yu:
      thumbnail
      Daniel M Ingram, modified 9 Years ago at 9/1/13 4:37 PM
      Created 9 Years ago at 8/12/13 8:01 PM
      RE: "Spirits"... I'd Like to Meet Them, Anyone Experienced O
      Posts: 3257 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
      I exercised a tech demon from Tarin in a pretty typical Ceremonial Magick-style banishing.
      It was done as he felt he had a demon that was creating havoc with any electronic devices he encountered.
      He said the results and improvements were immediate.
      Interestingly, while he was getting a clear picture of the demon in his mind, he noticed another one whose function he wasn't sure about.
      We just banished the one in question.
      I thought little of it afterwards.
      Two months later, while doing some electrical wiring, the wide spade bit on powerful 1/2 inch drill I was using hit a nail and spun around and broke my right 4th metacarpal (a bone in my hand), and, quite surprisingly, at that instant an image of Tarin's demon that we had very rudely and relatively harshly exercised flashed into my mind with a clear message, "This is payback!"
      My hand was fixed with two minor surgeries and is fine now.
      Still, it made me ponder the question carefully, the question of exactly what we had done, what the meaning of the images and message that it seemed I had received the moment my hand was broken, and the like.
      My conclusions:
      1) Should you find yourself in a mindset and paradigm where it makes sense to exercise demons, it is reasonable to assume that traditional methods are likely effective. In our case, it was a very basic setup: he stood in a pentagram with candles at the corners, the demon was bound in the pentagram by stating intentions and visualization, he stepped into an adjoining circle while leaving the demon in the pentagram, and the demon was sent elsewhere, instructed not to bother him again.
      2) However, something in the ethics of this rings oddly to me now, like some wrong was done. I would advocate for trying some more compassionate approach that considers the full balance of things, the point of view of the purported demon, and tries to find a reasonable solution that doesn't involve harsh commands and banishment so much as some totally different paradigm or point of view based on loving-kindness, resonating at some totally different frequency of perspective, and the like.
      Obviously, that whole way of thinking of the world is a problematic one in multiple ways, but should you find that is the way you are thinking of things, hopefully something in the above advice will be useful.
      02:18, 17 Aug - Soh Wei Yu: From:
      "Spirits"... I'd Like to Meet Them, Anyone Experienced Out There? - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
      DHARMAOVERGROUND.ORG
      "Spirits"... I'd Like to Meet Them, Anyone Experienced Out There? - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
      "Spirits"... I'd Like to Meet Them, Anyone Experienced Out There? - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
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  • Albert Hong
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    in the west maybe we are posessed by entities called facebook and google. if we soften our reductionism then its possible that so called things are entities with their own being and world view.
    for instance drugs such as heroin arise from poppies. maybe they too want to survive and has motives that we cannot conceive.
    it certainly is a more relational world if we open to the thou-ness.
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    • Soh Wei Yu
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      +1
      Was just reminded of a quote I read from a book, on how wheat domesticated us
      “Think for a moment about the Agricultural Revolution from the viewpoint of wheat. Ten thousand years ago wheat was just a wild grass, one of many, confined to a small range in the Middle East. Suddenly, within just a few short millennia, it was growing all over the world. According to the basic evolutionary criteria of survival and reproduction, wheat has become one of the most successful plants in the history of the earth. In areas such as the Great Plains of North America, where not a single wheat stalk grew 10,000 years ago, you can today walk for hundreds upon hundreds of miles without encountering any other plant. Worldwide, wheat covers about 870,000 square miles of the globe’s surface, almost ten times the size of Britain. How did this grass turn from insignificant to ubiquitous? Wheat did it by manipulating Homo sapiens to its advantage. This ape had been living a fairly comfortable life hunting and gathering until about 10,000 years ago, but then began to invest more and more effort in cultivating wheat. Within a couple of millennia, humans in many parts of the world were doing little from dawn to dusk other than taking care of wheat plants. It wasn’t easy. Wheat demanded a lot of them. Wheat didn’t like rocks and pebbles, so Sapiens broke their backs clearing fields. Wheat didn’t like sharing its space, water and nutrients with other plants, so men and women laboured long days weeding under the scorching sun. Wheat got sick, so Sapiens had to keep a watch out for worms and blight. Wheat was attacked by rabbits and locust swarms, so the farmers built fences and stood guard over the fields. Wheat was thirsty, so humans dug irrigation canals or lugged heavy buckets from the well to water it. Sapiens even collected animal faeces to nourish the ground in which wheat grew.”
      ― Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind
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      • Albert Hong
        Top contributor
        ya we have a very specific view of the world. it is materialist and humanocentric.
        if we relax this view then all kind of way more interesting interpretations and meanings are possible.
        its not that there aren't ghosts. its just in a sense you have to believe that there are. a context has to be in place then the potential for interaction is there.
        if you dont believe then automatically the window is closed. not possible.
        the perception mechanism of the brain is constantly editing out. letting new impressions in is much more difficult.
        2
      • Albert Hong
        Top contributor
        if we want to know the new gods. learn where we place our attention as a society and culture. we dont call them gods. but the mechanism still operates. attention is the food. we are food for other beings.
        i think primarily this is the reason why humans cannot accept otherness on a cosmic scale. it would require us to realize how irrelevant we are. and how we are like cattle being herded as food for other beings. we do it to cattle, they don't know fully what we do. maybe they do.
        why isn't it the same for us? the horror of that would destroy us.
        lol
        3
    • Albert Hong
      Top contributor
      frankly we can talk about even videogame characters such as mario. he has more reality than my life. more mindstreams know about and interact with and as him than I do. the power and reality of him is a lot more than myself.
      lol.
    • Mr. JW
      Albert Hong I've thought along similar lines with regard to corporate boards and structures. For example, in the news today, we see stories such as "Nike puts support behind..." "McDonalds hopes change in strategy will..." "Bud Light pivots on..." The same is true for nations, religions, so on and so forth. If one were from a planet that didn't use this mode of framing, they could be forgiven for believing that Nike, McDonalds, Bud Light, America, Germany, Catholicism, and so on... are all individual beings with beliefs, personalities, and goals.
      To use poetic license, it's kind of analogous to realizing that (speaking biologically/materialistically) the body is composed of countless cells, all of whom are "doing their own thing" yet somehow collate to form the appearance of a solid entity with a history and inclination. If a body is made of collaborating cells organized around survival, and a corporation or nation is made of collaborating humans organized around the same goal, it becomes hard to draw a clear line between those things and the gods you mentioned above.
      Give it a few years, and we might see people praying to Twitter for oracle advice 🙂 Or has that already happened? Hrmm...
      • Albert Hong
        Top contributor
        Mr. JW i read something cool in the idiots guide to the buddhas life. it basically said one can envision Mara as a corporation and the ceos get replaced periodically. and yeah there definitely is a business in making illusion so that the wheel of samsara turns. thats a lot of profit to be made you know?
        its funny. but also terrifying.
      • Mr. JW
        Albert Hong Wow, that's a really neat framing, and very appropriate for our times. I finished the show Succession the other month. Very much gave me those vibes (and overall, an interesting watch for its commentary on the nature of power, greed, and the craving to be somebody of importance).
      • Albert Hong
        Top contributor
        Mr. JW if ordinary reductionistic material reality is a non reality. then if offers the potential of other non realities to be highlighted.
      • Albert Hong
        Top contributor
        we take for granted. its precisely that which we never questiom but assume its validity. that is the prevailing construction of our world view. given to us and continually maintained by us.
        to make and unmake perception.
        maybe thats why non normal perception is possible. because we are the action of making real and unmaking real.
        but setting aside other non realities. the very non reality that we call reality is possible. that perception is possible so certainly weird. very weird.
        but we generally dont admit this or let it in.
        that to me is the sus point.
      • Mr. JW
        Albert Hong Yeah, I'm very much on the same page. The default assumption made socially is that "consensus reality" (which I guess Yogacara would refer to as the worldling view) forms the rational, obvious ground of all perception, and thus other frames/constructions are aberrant/deluded. But of course, the stated nature of this reality is constantly in flux, depending on historical circumstances, culture, whatever. There is no ground, no state of social perception that is unconditioned. So I guess when we get into these subtle conceptions or metaphorical presentations, what becomes vital is the connecting bridge of language and analogy. We have to sort of hint at the possibility, the gap, that makes possible a mode of perception we have never even conceived of as being possible to begin with.
      • Albert Hong
        Top contributor
        Mr. JW empathy goes a long way.
      • Albert Hong
        Top contributor
        something I've noticed in myself is this clear need and demand to pin it down. to really understand it, to know it. whatever the topic is, I mansplain.
        and it's very natural as a male. maybe its just natural given my dualistic vision and mind.
        but I think what I need more of not knowing. The uncertainty. Even with mental illness we label people and put them in boxes. I think this does a tremendous disservice to people, as people are more than their ideas.
        So, I personally need to not judge as much. To maybe stay with the insecurity of not knowing. Letting people be what they are, whatever they are. Not needing to define everything so concretely.
        Saying I don't know seems most honest at times. And sometimes I do know, but always balancing with not knowing.
        I guess the mantra is just it depends.
  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Top contributor
    My view : Mental health is a pandemic and schizophrenia is one out of many mental illnesses.
    There are also other complex illnesses like bipolar affective disorder, PTSD, major depression, personalities disorder, addiction disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder and many many more combination types. I also believe quite a handful here will have been diagnosed with one or two mental illnesses and I don’t believe this puts anyone in a disadvantage of practicing the dharma.
    Even without mental illnesses, each person carries along multiple lifetimes of karma, and the practice that they need this life varies from one disposition to another. For one who has strong greed, their practice will differ from one who have strong hatred.
    With mental illness, there’s also a spectrum of severity. I think dharma practices should be individually tailored and a dharma teacher who is sensitive to conditions will be able to prescribe just the right amount and type of practice suitable to each individual at specific period of time.
    That’s the work of a dharma teacher, who themselves has also practiced, who themselves rigorously investigate and plunge the depth of their minds before. Anyone less than this but tried to teach is only doing a disservice to others.
    Hence, even if one is afflicted with hallucinations, calming them down with western medications or Buddhist chants are skillful means. Getting a patient to have a pet fish or dog to take care of is dharmic. Many patients generate compassionate and peace of mind after having a kitty… this will bring them one step closer to enlightenment.
    All are skilful means, only if practices are prescribe correctly, on individual basis. 🙂
    That was how the Buddha taught, on an individual basis.
    In my job, I’m open to both western and traditional ways, western medicine help, sometimes more than we think it does. I encourage both and I encourage my patients to evaluate for themselves and let me know what works and what doesn’t. They know well. I don’t work with many Buddhist in UK, more Muslim and Christians, so I get them to speak to their priests who can advise better from a spiritual pov. I don’t prescribe mindfulness based practices at all, surprisingly, I haven’t find the conditions to do it, probably a bit of reservation from my side as a practitioner.
    That’s all I have to say! 😁
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    • Soh Wei Yu
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      “I have lived with several Zen masters — all of them cats. Even ducks have taught me important spiritual lessons. Just watching them is a meditation.” Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Acarya Malcolm Smith just posted today on advise for clinical depression (not schizophrenia):
    “Generally, they should first change their conduct, do more yoga, move more, etc.; then look at their diet, stimulants intake, etc. If all else fails, they should do "shroom" therapy. Much less expensive and more beneficial the SSRI's, etc. In the meantime, they should practice merit-generating activities in particular, if they find it difficult to sit, and so on.”
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Kyle Dixon on Thanissaro's Views on Anatman
Soh

 

krodha
· 3 days ago

No-self or not-self, by Thanassiro Bhikku:

People don’t often realize it but despite Thanissaro’s popularity, this presentation of anatta is a completely novel and arguably controversial interpretation of the principle on his part.

There is a group of individuals who interpret anatta in an apophatic way based on SN 44:10, and Thanissaro Bikkhu’s insistence on “not self,” but the conclusion drawn is illogical, given that the consequence of “not self” would still be absence of a self. They assert there is no outright negation of a self, even though the Pāli suttas state sabbe dhamma anatta repeatedly, these individuals sometimes even believe the prospect of some sort of self that is exempt from “all dhammas” is somehow plausible.

This idea from Thanissaro is not an official position given that other Theravadins like Bhante Sujato disagree. Bhante Sujato says this idea that the Buddha refused to answer is false and that Thanissaro’s assertion to that end is flawed or incomplete. Sujato cites Bikkhu Bodhi for clarification, and explains that the silence in that one particular instance was to keep Vacchagotta from adopting a view of annihilationism where a self currently exists and then ceases to exist.

But Thanissaro is very popular so people consider his view authoritative. Arguably, as I’ve witnessed, adopting this “not-self” view as a process that does not make an ultimate claim regarding the impossibility of a substantial self results in an indifferent, indiscriminate no-man’s land of a position on anatta that injures the import and intention of the view.

The real meaning of anātman is selflessness, lack of self, without self, no self, absence of self and so on. The realization of anātman, which is the absence of the background substrate which the self or entity is imputed onto is the insight that brings about the species of awakening that the buddhadharma champions.

If the consequence of “not self” is not “no self,” as in an absence of a substantial selfhood, then “not-self” as a gloss and principle is an inadequate exercise in apophatic theology which will not go the distance. Still, the logical consequence of “not-self” is the same if the import of anātman in both conditioned and unconditioned dharmas is properly understood. Thus even if not-self is the exercise one chooses, then all phenomena and non-phenomena should be understood to be “not self” and then there is then no self to be found anywhere, and the same consequence is made apparent.

A lack of an inherent self is not annihilation, but the doorway to actualizing our true modality of cognition as gnosis [jñāna]. As Śākyamuni Buddha states in the Śatasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā-sūtra:

If it asked what is the samadhi known as the lamp of gnosis [jñāna], abiding in that samadhi is clearly explained as the absence of self in phenomena and persons.

The definition of anātman in Mahāyāna is pretty unambiguous, the Bodhisattvayogacaryācatuḥśatakaṭikā:

Ātman is an essence of things that does not depend on others; it is an intrinsic nature. The non-existence of that is selflessness [anātman].

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The relationship between awareness and transience: a convo with John Tan in Early 2010
Soh

Was searching for something in Thusness chat logs two days ago. Thought of sharing this excerpt.


A conversation with John Tan during my I AM phase, early 2010:


(7:37 PM) Thusness: anatta is the thorough insight that the behind reality does not exist, only aggregates and that is the 'what is' of experiential reality.

(7:38 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:38 PM) Thusness: when we are unable to completely dissolve this background, we will not be able to truly understand Awareness.

because we are afraid of the transient.

(7:40 PM) Thusness: this prevents direct experience and how Presence can Presence be when we are unable to experience directly?

(7:40 PM) Thusness: The background is a form of 'subtle referencing', it is not the vivid Presence.

(7:41 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:41 PM) Thusness: so what is vivid Presence?

(7:42 PM) AEN: whatever is is vivid presence? there is no need to reference to something else

(7:42 PM) Thusness: if u cannot experience thoughts, sound..the aggregates directly, u r not experiencing presence.

(7:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:44 PM) AEN: what about the experience of the witness

(7:46 PM) AEN: john wheeler: Like anything else, the "sense of I am" is still an appearance, an experience. Realize that the "sense of I am " is not what you are. You are TO WHOM even that appears. What you are has no "I" sense at all. There is no "I" in non-conceptual awareness. It is not even looking at anything, because it is one without a second. The observer and the observed both appear in your non-conceptual reality. Do not confuse what you are with the "observer". That also is a limited thing, an appearance. You are beyond the observer also.

.... Reality, your true nature itself, has no center or reference point. It is not in the head, in the body, or anywhere else. All appearances arise in that which has no position, reference point or boundary and which is your natural condition. A subtle reference of what we are to a location still implies a specific "I" that is able to be located. But pure being or awareness is "no thing". It has no position, no time, no space, no location. All of those only apply to a thing. But your real nature is not an object, not a thing. The basis of the troubles is the separate "I" notion. If there is any subtle belief in the "I", the mind will attempt to give it some position,  definition, location or concept. Why? Because it has no substance. It

(7:47 PM) AEN: It needs to wrap itself in some clothing to have any semblance of being. One solution is to try to pull away all the landing zones. That is potentially an endless undertaking. It is so easy for the "I" notion to creep back into the proceedings. That is often the blind spot. The nature of a blind spot is that you cannot see it because you are looking through it and not recognizing that fact. It is like looking through your glasses to find the glasses you assume are lost. The clear and direct solution is to examine the validity of the "I" notion itself. Do not settle for pulling away the leaves and branches, but go for the root.

(7:49 PM) Thusness: yet that is still a referencing

(7:51 PM) Thusness: to be without reference is to realize that all there is always only Appearance.  When u realized that thoroughly, u r without reference, location, direct and vividly Present. 🙂

(7:51 PM) AEN: oic..


Session Start: Saturday, 17 April, 2010


(5:05 PM) AEN: while contemplating 'who is listening'... i noticed that consciousness doesnt seem like a localized witness but more like a field of knowing... and it feels impersonal and universal. feels like i am this universal consciousness and everything just emerges and subsides from this field of consciousness

(5:14 PM) AEN: the witness also seems universal

(5:25 PM) AEN: i notice the sense of self seems to dissolve just by resting in awareness.. previously theres a sense of self and locality tied to awareness.

(5:42 PM) AEN: i also notice that no matter how the mind appears to move they are still appearances of unmoving consciousness

(9:17 AM) Thusness: Yes

(9:17 AM) Thusness: now is to focus on this impersonal and universal aspect of consciousness. 🙂

(9:17 AM) Thusness: after direct experience of 'luminosity', focus on 'non-conceptual', impersonal and universal aspect and from there, understand how u r became 'conditioned'.  U will refine ur view at a later phase.   U will eventually realize how consciousness traps itself in views and interpretations. U must eventually walk out all these constructs and understand 'what is' directly.

(9:17 AM) Thusness: To me, the most challenging aspect is to 'see' the truth of anatta and emptiness nature of our luminous essence.  We will only see clearly when the tendency to 'reify' stuff dissolves.  U will then realize the 'permanent, unchanging witness' is the result of this tendency.

(3:05 PM) Thusness: Yes

(3:05 PM) Thusness: now is to focus on this impersonal and universal aspect of consciousness. 🙂

(3:23 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:25 PM) Thusness: element is not bad

(3:25 PM) Thusness: u always make this mistake of making samadhi into an insight

(3:26 PM) AEN: oic.. what u mean

(3:26 PM) Thusness: nvm

(3:27 PM) Thusness: anyway u know what is so convincing in the advaita vedanta experience?

(3:28 PM) AEN: hmm.. isit bcos as u said the directness gives rise to a sense of certainty?

(3:29 PM) Thusness: yes but with the dualistic paradigm, we cannot correctly understand such an experience

(3:29 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:29 PM) Thusness: after non-dual, oneness will be the natural progression

if our mode of understanding is still dualistic

(3:30 PM) Thusness: if however insight arises, then it is simply 5 aggregates

(3:30 PM) Thusness: u do not think of 'self', just the aggregates

u do not think of 'body', just sensations

(3:31 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:32 PM) Thusness: the sense of the center, locality will dissolve with practice with the arising insight of anatta

(3:34 PM) Thusness: anyway don't just keep arguing in a forum that does not understand or believe what u said

(3:35 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:35 PM) Thusness: practice until the insight of anatta arises

(3:35 PM) Thusness: it is very difficult to get into phase 5 of insight if u get stuck in non-dual and oneness

(3:36 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:41 PM) Thusness: currently, which phase of the 7 phases u have not directly experienced?

(3:56 PM) AEN: i dun think i experienced much of ur 7 phases yet.. lol. i mean especially regarding anattta and emptiness. and i think stage 3 i also dun think i experienced that

(3:57 PM) Thusness: yes

(3:58 PM) Thusness: is impersonality different from ur experience in the post u wrote about the certainty of being?

(4:02 PM) AEN: yeah i think so. the certainty of being has a vivid sense of luminosity but the sense of self and locality is not deconstructed?

(4:04 PM) Thusness: do not mix up non-dual and anatta

in anatta, the experience is implicitly non-dual

(4:05 PM) Thusness: but it is not treating 'Oneness' as ultimate

(4:06 PM) Thusness: therefore u must understand what is the cause that leads to such experience and progression

(4:07 PM) Thusness: locality is also not deconstructed in impersonality

(4:07 PM) AEN: oic..

(4:11 PM) AEN: what is the cause that leads to which experience? oneness or anatta

(4:12 PM) Thusness: all

(4:13 PM) Thusness: just remember now that non-dual does not imply the arising insight of anatta

(4:13 PM) Thusness: however it is a very important break-through

(4:14 PM) Thusness: anatta is like simply aggregates

(4:14 PM) AEN: oic..

(4:14 PM) Thusness: just thoughts

no awareness and thoughts

or thoughts in awareness

(4:15 PM) Thusness: or awareness as thoughts

get it?

(4:15 PM) Thusness: remember about the toni packer?

(4:15 PM) Thusness: the post about weather?

(4:16 PM) Thusness: when we say 'in' weather, is it correct?

(4:16 PM) Thusness: but conventionally we feel that is correct.

(4:16 PM) AEN: icic..

(4:16 PM) Thusness: therefore we cannot really understand

and this has profound implication on the way we experience the world

(4:17 PM) Thusness: the profound implication is very important

coz it tells us what we are

(4:17 PM) Thusness: what consciousness is like

(4:18 PM) Thusness: like being 'spell' bound

get it?

(4:18 PM) AEN: yeah

(4:20 PM) AEN: what we call 'awareness' is also just like 'weather', it cant be located but is just the stream of aggregates... therefore we cannot say 'things happen in awareness'

(4:20 PM) AEN: ?

(4:21 PM) Thusness: yes

(4:22 PM) AEN: ic..

(4:22 PM) Thusness: but because of the mind's capacity to abstract and reify, we are like living in a 'spell-like' condition

this also must be realized

(4:23 PM) Thusness: but u must directly experience aggregates

pure aggregates

directly experiencing thoughts

forms

(4:23 PM) Thusness: sensations

...etc

vividly and luminously present

(4:24 PM) Thusness: the non-dual aspect

(4:24 PM) AEN: oic..

(4:24 PM) Thusness: it is from this implicitly non-dual experience that u refine ur experience from right view

with the help of right view

(4:26 PM) AEN: icic..

(4:27 PM) Thusness: so if u do not have such insight of non-dual experience, then it is still not a form of 'insight'

(4:28 PM) Thusness: in non-dual tradition, it is just the non-dual luminous awareness and the rest is literally illusion

(4:29 PM) Thusness: in actual practice, the tendencies..., ignorance...etc are as important conditions that create this moment of experience

(4:30 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:22 PM) AEN: S9: Representing Awareness as being super-awareness is an incorrect way to represent what is being talked about, or experienced as Awareness. Awareness is more like the Ocean, whereas manifestation, as in each

manifested mind object, is more like each and every wave. Is the wave separate from the ocean and is the ocean separate from the wave? No not really. But the ocean can be without any manifestation of a temporary phenomenon

called wave-ing, you will never see a wave without an ocean to support it and let it burrow its existent. This, my friend, is the difference between Awareness and every little manifestation imaginable.

(10:26 PM) Thusness: Isn't this what u r experiencing now. 🙂

(10:29 PM) AEN: yea

(10:29 PM) Thusness: it is just refining this experience

i told u about first the "I AMness"

(10:30 PM) Thusness: then the 4 aspects

what are the four?

(10:31 PM) AEN: impersonality, degree of luminosity, seeing through the need to re-confirm, and effortlessness

(10:32 PM) Thusness: u r beginning to experience this aspect of impersonality

what is it like?

(10:36 PM) AEN: it feels non personal like space... and theres no sense of self or locality to the witness, its not like someone 'in here' watching outside things. everything manifests from it

(10:38 PM) Thusness: not very good yet

(10:38 PM) AEN: ic..

(10:38 PM) Thusness: but that is about where s9 is.

(10:38 PM) AEN: oic

so s9 is experiencing impersonality now?

(10:39 PM) Thusness: nope

his is still very personal

(10:40 PM) AEN: oic

(10:40 PM) Thusness: however there is no point talking about it now. 🙂

(10:40 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:41 PM) Thusness: many practitioners will cling to this idea of the Self and is reluctant to give up

(10:42 PM) Thusness: this prevents them from progressing and the attachment to this Self limits their experience to the non-conceptual formless realm

(10:43 PM) Thusness: i kept saying to u that there is no denying of the witness but just the right understanding of it.  Remember that

(10:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:45 PM) Thusness: experience the 4 aspects first and refine ur experience of "I AMness"

non-dual is the next phase

(10:46 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:47 PM) Thusness: after that, u must mature the experience till insight of anatta arise.  

(10:48 PM) AEN: oic..


Session Start: Monday, 19 April, 2010


(5:12 PM) AEN: john wheeler: To know any experience, there must be a knowing that "I am". That is just the basic conscious knowing of being present. That is what first appears out of deep sleep. It is not a personal "I" or any other notion. Call it impersonal knowing. Subsequently, the mind begins operating and the separate "I" notion is created in thought.

Pure awareness, or non-conceptual reality, is non-dual. Upon or within this arises self-consciousness, which is the pure sense of "I am", but not yet individualized. Then follows the "I" concept, or the notion of separate individuality. Lastly, there appear notions such as I am this or that (body, mind, personality, etc.).  

From the perspective of reality, there is NO appearance to speak of, because the seeming appearance is the appearance of THAT. It is all THAT.

(5:12 PM) AEN: All phenomena appear in consciousness. That consciousness is NOT personal. It is the primordial or first experience in duality. It is the pure sense of "I am" with no other content, just knowing "I am" without words, or being self-consciously aware. But that is still an experience. You are the space in which even that comes and goes.


Session Start: Monday, 19 April, 2010


(10:51 PM) Thusness: John Wheeler recent para is not bad.

(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..

he's talking about non dual?

(11:11 PM) Thusness: not just that

(11:13 PM) Thusness: John Wheeler seems to be able to outline the different phases of "I M" i told u

(11:14 PM) Thusness: however that is only up till non-dual level

(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..


Session Start: Wednesday, 21 April, 2010


(8:02 PM) AEN: Steve Hagen:

(8:03 PM) AEN: ...All things are like this. Indeed, it's impossible for any conceived object not to be like this. Nothing stands on its own. Nothing has its own being. Each thing is inseparable from, and inter-identical with, all that it's not.

(8:03 PM) AEN: Thus perception is an objectless Awareness since, when we just see, what is truly seen involves not objects but the Whole. Nothing actually forms as an object; nothing stands apart. No matter where we look, there's just this.

(8:04 PM) AEN: Here's another example of a foolish-sounding Zen question that is actually an expression of just seeing: What is the sound of one hand clapping?

When we conceive of a hand, it's just a single, isolated hand, and we're puzzled at the question. To clap, we need two hands. But this is approaching the question in our ordinary way - that is, conceptually.

(8:05 PM) AEN: With naked perception however, we see that a hand is not a separate and distinct hand. Everything is included with it. One hand clapping is the sound of two hands clapping is the sound of ten hands clapping. it's the sound before and after two hands clap. it's also the sound before and after one hand claps.

(8:05 PM) AEN: Conceptually, we think that sound is sound and silence is silence. The two seem neatly separated and distinct - in fact, opposite of each other. But this is only how we think, how we conceptualize. This is not how Reality is perceived, before we put everything into neat, nicely labeled (but deceptive) little packages.

(8:06 PM) AEN: We think there only has to be sound for there to be sound. We overlook that there must also be silence for there to be sound. And because of sound, there is silence. Were there no sound, how could there be silence?

(8:06 PM) AEN: Before you strike a bell, a sound is already here. After you strike the bell, the sound is here. When the sound fades and dies away, the sound is still here. The sound is not just the sound but the silence, too, And the silence is the sound. This is what is actually perceived before we parse everything out into this and that, into "myself" and "what I hear."

(8:07 PM) AEN: The sound of the bell is inseparable from everything that came before and that will come after as well as from everything that appears now. This includes your eardrum, which vibrates in response to it. It includes the air, which pulses with varying waves of pressure in response to it.

(8:07 PM) AEN: It includes the stick that strikes the bell. It includes the metallurgists, past and present, and those who learned to extract metal from ore and those who fashioned the bell. And it includes that ancient furnace, that supernova obliterated long ago in which this metal formed.

(8:08 PM) AEN: Remove any of these - indeed, remove anything at all - and there can be no sound of the bell. The sound of the bell is thus not "the sound of the bell." It is the entire Universe.

(8:14 PM) AEN: .....What Nagarjuna is pointing to is that believing things are impermanent involves a contradiction. First we posit separate, persisting things (in effect, absolute objects); and then we refer to them as impermanent (that is relative). What we fail to see is that we are still holding to a view of substance. We

(8:14 PM) AEN: don't really appreciate the thoroughgoing nature of change, the thorough-going nature of selflessness. Nagarjuna makes it abudantly clear that impermanence (the relative) is total, complete, thoroughgoing, Absolute. It's not that the universe is made up of innumerable objects in flux. There's Only flux. Nothing

(8:15 PM) AEN: is (or can be) riding along in the flux, like a cork in a stream; nothing actually arises or passes away. There's only stream. ..... That forms appear to come and go cannot be denied. But to assume the existence of imaginary persisting entities and attach them to these apparent comings and goings is delusion.

(8:22 PM) Thusness: This is very good.

(8:23 PM) Thusness: many practitioners stop at the phase of non-dual, few penetrates indepth and see clearly the meaning of anatta and DO.

(8:24 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:27 PM) AEN: he also seems to talk about universe as having no time and locality, "einstein showed us that if we could somehow get ourselves up to the speed of light, time would slow down as our velocity increased, until finally at the speed of light, time would cease to elapse at all. From the standpoint of someone traveling at the speed of light, it would appear that all the space being traversed - every inch or light year of it - would pass by at once, no matter how long the journey might be.

(8:28 PM) AEN: So from the viewpoint of a photon going to Andromeda, the journey takes literally no time at all. In other words, to the photon, Adromeda is right here, since it takes no time whatsoever to get "there". And the fact that the message is there and here simultnaeously makes "there" indistinguishable from "here".

This would be equally true for any two "locations" in the universe that you could point to. In other words, the universe doesn't appear to have any intrinsic size or duration at all.

(8:35 PM) AEN: anyway just bought a book from steve hagen, 'Buddhism is not what you think'

(8:41 PM) Thusness: where u get these para from?

(8:42 PM) AEN: the book 'Buddhism is not what you think'

(8:42 PM) Thusness: icic

(8:48 PM) AEN: he also used rose to describe emptiness i think.. lol. but he talk about fragrance. - "The Song of the Jewel Mirror Awareness," a poem by the great Chinese Zen teacher Tung-shan, speaks of the very same Awareness that the Buddha pointed to. This image of a jewel mirror was used as a way to express the source from which all things issue. All the myriad things, thoughts, and feelings we experience appear like images in a mirror: vivid yet insubstantial. The ungraspable mirror is what's Real, while the seemingly isolated things that appear in it are not.

(8:48 PM) AEN: Consider for example, the simple act of smelling a rose. We see the rose, feel the rose, bring it close, breathe in through our nose. We "smell the rose," as we say, though this refers more to how we conceptualize our experience than it does to what is actually experienced. To say we smell a fragrance would be closer to the actual experience.

(8:49 PM) AEN: But where does the act of smelling a fragrance takes place? If we attend carefully, we can see that all of our usual accounts of the experience start to break down.

(8:49 PM) AEN: Is the fragrance in the rose? If it was, how could you smell it? you're here while the rose is "out there" somehwere. On the other hand, if the rose were removed, you surely wouldn't smell the fragrance. But if you were removed - or if the air in between you and the rose were removed - you also wouldn't smell it.

(8:50 PM) AEN: So is the fragrance in the rose? Is it in your nose? Is it in the air in between? Is it in the air if no one is around to smell it? If so, how could we tell?

Is the fragrance in your brain, then? And if it's in your brain, then why is the rose necessary at all?

(8:50 PM) AEN: Ultimately, the simple act of "smelling a rose" - or any other act involving a subject and object - becomes impossible to pin down and utterly insubstantial.

(8:51 PM) AEN: Gradually, however, we can begin to appreciate what the experience of smelling a rose actually entails. It's of the nature of the mirror itself - that is, that the source of all experience is Mind. As such, the act of smelling - or seeing or hearing or touching or thinking - literally has no location. This non-locality is the very essence of Mind.

(8:52 PM) Thusness: When is it written?

it is very well written.

(8:53 PM) AEN: oic.. the book is made of collection of articles between 1999 to 2003

published in 2003

(8:54 PM) Thusness: first experience non-dual essence of luminosity

(8:54 PM) Thusness: then understand that even this non-dual luminous essence is also empty

(8:55 PM) Thusness: without having direct experience of our non-dual essence, u will not be able integrate this emptiness nature as a form of direct insight.

(8:56 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:57 PM) Thusness: do not understand it like a form of knowledge

(8:57 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:00 PM) Thusness: going to get this book

(9:00 PM) AEN: joan tollifson highly recommends this book 😛 "These are all outstanding and very highly recommended books, especially Buddhism Is Not What You Think. Steve is one of the clearest and most articulate living Zen teachers I've come across. I recommend him for his subtle understanding of emptiness, impermanence, and true nonduality, and also for his intelligent approach to meditation and "practice.""

http://www.joantollifson.com/recommend.html

oic

(9:01 PM) Thusness: yes

(9:01 PM) Thusness: how u come to know about this book?

it is very well written

(9:01 PM) AEN: i was at Times just now, then i saw this book

oic

(9:02 PM) Thusness: icic

(9:14 PM) AEN: oh ya btw

(9:15 PM) AEN: i forgot... buddha bra asked a qn we haven replied him 😛 http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html#comments

(9:15 PM) Thusness: ic

u reply him can liao

(9:15 PM) Thusness: busy these days.  i will be away in may and june

(9:16 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:16 PM) Thusness: but i will get the book buddhism is not what u think...lol

what is the color of the book?

(9:17 PM) AEN: mine is grey and orange... website show is grey and white.

but i think it may not be in all bookstores, better check first

(9:17 PM) AEN: just now was last copy in times

(9:17 PM) Thusness: what is the url of the website?

(9:18 PM) AEN: his website? http://www.dharmafield.org/

click Books at Store

(9:21 PM) Thusness: what are the contents?

(9:22 PM) AEN: http://www.dharmafield.org/bookbinwyt.htm

(9:24 PM) AEN: alot of stuff about nonduality, anatta and emptiness

(9:25 PM) Thusness: the para u quoted is from which chapter?

(9:26 PM) AEN: the one on D.O. is from 'Just Seeing' the rest from 'Elixir of Immortality'

(9:27 PM) Thusness: it has all the seven phases of insight

(9:27 PM) AEN: oic

u mean even I AM?

(9:27 PM) Thusness: and it is linked to the One Mind

(9:27 PM) AEN: oic what u mean

(9:28 PM) Thusness: this mean that it is all the seven phases of insight

anyway don't quote what i said if u want to recommend others to read

(9:28 PM) AEN: lol ok

(9:29 PM) Thusness: means many do not know how to link One Mind to Emptiness

(9:29 PM) Thusness: the All is Mind due to its empty nature and luminous essence

(9:30 PM) Thusness: that is All is Mind but due to DO and anatta...get it?

that is the difference between Buddhism and other religions.

(9:30 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:31 PM) AEN: ya the behind chapters are alot on One Mind

(9:32 PM) Thusness: yes i was reading through the contents

(9:32 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:49 PM) Thusness: all is talking about this moment of manifestation

(9:50 PM) Thusness: yet many cling to Oneness and cannot see the DO nature.

(9:58 PM) AEN: oic..


Session Start: Friday, 23 April, 2010


(5:00 PM) Thusness: u know how to comment on richard's reply?

(5:14 PM) AEN: hmm

(5:14 PM) AEN: i think what he said is valid as karmic propensities continue to surface after some insights... but then again the way to resolve that is not by efforting but by seeing/insight?

im not sure how to comment

(5:16 PM) AEN: its not about effort to get rid of 'self' but by seeing that there is no 'self'

(5:31 PM) AEN: how wld u comment


Session Start: Friday, 23 April, 2010


(10:27 PM) Thusness: what richard asked is the essence of practice

(10:28 PM) Thusness: u have to put in more effort and thoughts

what is the difference between non-dual and anatta?

(10:29 PM) Thusness: this u must be very clear

(10:30 PM) AEN: back

(10:31 PM) AEN: non dual is just the non division of subject object... but anatta is seeing through the sense of an inherent one mind/consciousness by seeing consciousness as just manifestation and insubstantial?

(10:31 PM) Thusness: u r just memorizing words

(10:32 PM) Thusness: give me experiential insight

(10:34 PM) AEN: non dual before anatta still has some referencing back or clinging to something permanent... but anatta is just seeing consciousness as the transience, no referencing?

im not sure

(10:35 PM) Thusness: in non-dual, there are obsessed with behind reality

(10:36 PM) Thusness: in anatta, u realized that such an 'inherent ultimate reality' does not exist.  U directly experience phenomena

(10:37 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:37 PM) Thusness: a practitioner cannot experience directly phenomena if in his inmost consciousness he still believe an inherent self

(10:39 PM) Thusness: there is no vivid, present, direct experience of thoughts, no vivid, present, direct experience of sound, no vivid, present and direct experience of taste

or simply just aggregates

(10:41 PM) Thusness: once a practitioner thoroughly seen through this and have direct perception of the transient, he realizes both the essence and nature of so called 'phenomena'

the aggregates

(10:42 PM) Thusness: the functioning of DO.

(10:42 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:42 PM) Thusness: it is not about the behind reality

(10:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:44 PM) Thusness: it is the pure, vivid experience of the aggregates directly as that layer called 'self' isn't there to 'blind' him

(10:44 PM) Thusness: the second important point is what is 'wu' (realization)?

(10:44 PM) Thusness: ?

(10:45 PM) Thusness: Richard is not seeing '?' (wu; realization)

(10:46 PM) Thusness: and its implication to Consciousness and Awareness

(10:46 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:46 PM) Thusness: ? (realization) is what that brings about a 360 degree change

(10:47 PM) Thusness: ur entire view, life...ur entire experiential reality

(10:47 PM) Thusness: the impact of ? (realization) is transformational

(10:47 PM) Thusness: that is why i say 'seeing' arising insight

deeper seeing

(10:48 PM) Thusness: that is what that will result in powerful and transformational change

(10:48 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:48 PM) Thusness: that is practice

(10:48 PM) AEN: practice?

(10:48 PM) Thusness: to wu

(10:50 PM) AEN: dun really understand

(10:51 PM) Thusness: u must understand the impact of 'wu' or arising insight

otherwise nothing change

(10:51 PM) Thusness: nothing really transformational

get it?

(10:51 PM) AEN: ic.. yah

so u mean the whole purpose of practice is to give rise to insight

(10:52 PM) Thusness: we think that we must do this or that

(10:52 PM) Thusness: but we do not know it is the 'insight' that brought about the 360 degree transformation

(10:52 PM) Thusness: suffering too is to bring about such insight

(10:53 PM) Thusness: therefore it is not do nothing

it is about deeper seeing

(10:53 PM) Thusness: get it?

(10:53 PM) AEN: how does suffering bring such insight

(10:54 PM) Thusness: don't just write for the sake of writing...as if u r rushing to answer someone

go through it and clearly understand its implication

(10:54 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:55 PM) Thusness: For awareness practice, 'insight' is all that matters.

(10:55 PM) Thusness: u never c ppl writing so much, it is all talking about this deeper seeing

(10:56 PM) Thusness: any other thing?

it is not about 'chi' or practicing 'chi gong'

(10:56 PM) Thusness: or mudra or visualization...

get it?

(10:56 PM) AEN: oic.. yah

(10:57 PM) Thusness: so u must know from the perspective of awareness practice, what matters

and what is meant by non-doing

(10:57 PM) Thusness: it is the arising insight that brought about the change and that is all that matters to Awareness

(10:58 PM) Thusness: so the insight of anatta and DO...what do these insights bring?

get it?

(10:58 PM) AEN: travise: "


in my experience you cannot simply let go until you have seen what you are. Until you know you, and the lie that you are something other than you is dissolved the you not continuing will be the wrong you. Knowing what you are is not done by letting go, or by simply being, but only by looking at you."

ic..

(10:59 PM) AEN: - http://now-for-you.com/viewtopic.php?t=5561

(10:59 PM) Thusness: in awareness practice, it is all about 'seeing', about arising insight, about ?

(11:00 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:04 PM) Thusness: if ur insight matures, naturally everything is transparently clear and obvious

(11:05 PM) Thusness: only and purely aggregates and function like DO.

(11:05 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:05 PM) Thusness: u no more look and reference to a behind reality

(11:06 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:10 PM) AEN: btw

(11:11 PM) AEN: how shld i reply richard... shld i also explain the diff between anatta and non dual?

(11:12 PM) Thusness: non-dual is an experience of no subject-object division

(11:12 PM) Thusness: it is the degree of clarity

(11:14 PM) Thusness: when we are still not free from the influence of the dualistic and inherent tendencies, it is difficult to experience the 'aggregates' directly

(11:15 PM) Thusness: when u realized it is also been so, no behind reality, then aggregates, thoughts, sound...etc are vividly clear

(11:16 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:18 PM) AEN: richard herman seems to suggest he lose non dual awareness when he's stressed:


There is the unobstructed quality I described in the earlier post. It is not continuous, there are moments of eclipse.


Most of the time I dont believe the story, but sometimes under certain circumstanced there is a lapse. It may be a case of old deep conditioning. For instance not long ago my son was kicked in the groin at school because he has mild tourettes, and the other kids were amused. By kicking him in the groin his anxiety and fear made his tourettes worsen to the delight of the bullies. On being called to the school there were moments when the situation, the story, was ....compelling, for me. so much so that equinimity did not come easy. This is very different than say buying fruit at the market and walking slowly home.


In my experience there are times when awakeness lapses . With practice the karmic triggers that would close things up before do not close things up as easily now.. "Awakeness" when it is truly clear isnt acknowledged as such, There is no checking back,,,"yes I am awake". Complete eclipse or seeming eclipse rarely occurs now.


Once again this is my experience, it may be different for you.

http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5261&page=2

(11:40 PM) AEN: btw what do u mean by suffering too is to bring about such insight

(11:41 PM) Thusness: i go sleep liao. think through

(11:43 PM) AEN: posted: http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?p=100755#post100755

(11:45 PM) AEN: updated

(11:50 PM) Thusness: "it is the degree of clarity" of what?

(11:50 PM) Thusness: din'

don

don't just cut and paste

tink through

(11:50 PM) AEN: oic..

degree of clarity on the non-dual and anatta nature of consciousness?

(11:51 PM) Thusness: non-dual and anatta is a matter of degree of clarity

of what?

(11:52 PM) AEN: of awareness?

of the transience

(11:52 PM) Thusness: of the relationship between awareness and transience

(11:52 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:54 PM) Thusness: one is truly existing behind reality somehow having a 'non-dual' experience.

(11:54 PM) Thusness: one is realizing that awareness is a DO manifestation

(11:55 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:02 AM) Thusness:  it is the degree of clarity of the relationship between awareness and transience.

what r u talking abt?

(12:03 AM) AEN: hmm... rephrasing it: Non-dual is an experience of no subject-object division, it is the degree of clarity of the relationship between awareness and transience that matters.

(12:04 AM) Thusness: why don't u just say 'between anatta and non-dual, it is just the degree and depth of clarity between Awareness and the Transience'

(12:05 AM) AEN: oic..

ok

(12:06 AM) Thusness: i go sleep liao

nite

(12:06 AM) AEN: ok.. nite

(12:19 AM) Thusness:  only and purely aggregates, only the 18 dhatus, 'only the world referencing itself'.  The tendency to reference back to a 'Self/self' is replaced by the thorough insight of anatta and DO.

and write in proper english...

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