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Transcript with Thusness - Heart of Mahakashyapa, +A and -A Emptiness
Transcript with Thusness - 2012 Self-Releasing
Below is a structured synopsis of the “ATR Meeting 28 October 2020” document, following the requested format. Times are approximate since the transcript begins after the first 17 minutes.
INTRODUCTION AND CONTEXT
• The meeting occurs on October 28, 2020, with multiple attendees (e.g., Kenneth, William Lam, John Tan, Soh, Sim Pern Chong, Jui Horne, Angelo, Pam, Nafis, etc).
• The first 17 minutes (not included in the transcript) deal with general conversation about the ongoing pandemic, its impact on businesses, and related personal updates.
• At around the 17-minute mark, the conversation shifts toward spiritual topics when Kenneth asks John Tan about the start of his spiritual awakening.
SEGMENTED TIMELINE
00:00–17:00 | (Omitted from Transcript) – Pandemic and Business Context
• General discussion of the pandemic’s effects on business and daily life.
• Setting the stage for a more personal and philosophical discussion that begins after minute 17.
17:00–30:00 | Early Spiritual Experiences and the “I AM” Stage
• John Tan describes his spiritual journey beginning around age 15, emphasizing the direct experience of consciousness referred to as “I AM” or Presence.
• He explains how conceptual thinking can obscure direct experience, and how, at first, one may experience a dualistic sense of being a subject separate from an object.
• The conversation touches on Buddhism and Hinduism, noting that both traditions use methods (such as koans or self-inquiry) to spark a direct realization of consciousness.
• John Tan highlights that early realization of Presence or “I AM” often feels nonconceptual, powerful, and liberating, yet may still retain dualistic notions of a background self.
30:00–45:00 | From “I AM” to Anatta
• John Tan recounts that years later (in 1997) he realized Anatta (no-self), wherein the notion of a separate subject dissolves completely.
• Discussion of dualistic versus nondual experiences: one can have a taste of Presence (the “I AM”) while still feeling a separate self in daily life. Anatta, by contrast, removes that background sense of a subject.
• William Lam asks about the cause of self. John Tan explains it as “reification”—turning a conceptual construct into a seemingly solid, separate “I.”
• The group references classical Buddhist ideas, noting that seeing through the self leads to direct, immediate experience of sound, sight, or sensation without a “someone” behind them.
45:00–60:00 | Reification, Madhyamaka, and Further Insights
• John Tan introduces the concept of “reification” more formally, relating it to Madhyamaka teachings (Nagarjuna’s philosophy): the sense of self, objects, and inherent existence are conceptual constructs.
• Comparison of different Tibetan Buddhist schools: Gelugpa (associated with Tsongkhapa) emphasizing “no inherent existence,” versus traditions (e.g., Mipham, Gorampa) that speak in terms of “freedom from extremes” and challenge any conceptual imputation.
• Kenneth and John discuss how language shapes experience (“the lightning flashes” implies a subject ‘lightning’ and an action ‘flashes,’ when in direct experience they are not two).
• John Tan notes the importance of continuing deconstruction: once self is seen through, one can also question the solidity of objects and physicality.
60:00–75:00 | Total Exertion and Maintaining Conventional Realities
• John Tan describes “total exertion”—an insight in which one feels intimately connected to all appearances in a seamless, vibrant way, yet diversity remains.
• This differs from collapsing everything into a single oneness; instead, phenomena remain distinct but without a separate sense of self or inherent existence.
• The group observes that one can retain ordinary designations (cup, table, etc.) while seeing through inherent existence, leading to a feeling of interconnection across time and space.
• William Lam asks how these insights arise: John Tan suggests a combination of meditative practice, study, and especially sincere questioning of one’s assumptions.
75:00–90:00 | Experience vs. Insight; Practice Methods
• John Tan distinguishes between a fleeting experience (e.g., a brief taste of spaciousness) and stable insight (seeing directly that there never was a self).
• Discussion covers the “I AM” phase versus a stable realization of anatta, plus how conceptual deconstruction in daily life supports direct, nondual experience.
• Participants mention that after anatta, one can feel continuous clarity without needing to meditate long hours, unlike the earlier “I AM” stage when one constantly tries to recapture Presence.
90:00–End | Taoism, Chinese Philosophy, and Parallel Practices
• The conversation explores Taoist ideas such as Wu Wei (actionless action) and the transformation of Qi, relating them to non-agency (no separate self acting).
• John Tan discusses the I Ching, Yin-Yang, and Five Elements, illustrating the deep Chinese emphasis on ceaseless transformation over static essence.
• He notes later Taoist incorporation of “inner light” teachings, possibly influenced by Buddhist concepts of primordial consciousness.
• Personal anecdotes arise about teachers, masters, and experiences that show parallels in Taoist and Buddhist approaches.
TOA PAYOH MEETING ENDING
OVERCOMING ATTACHMENT AND CONCEPTUAL DECONSTRUCTION
- John Tan elaborates on overcoming attachment and the nature of attributes and objects.
- He discusses how attributes like color are not inherent in objects but are dependent on consciousness and the whole exertion of consciousness.
- Emphasizes the gradual process of deconstructing concepts such as cause and effect and attributes over years, leading to a deeper understanding of dependent origination and emptiness.
KEY THEMES AND INSIGHTS
Progression of Spiritual Realization
– From the “I AM” or Presence phase (direct sense of being) to the eventual insight of Anatta (no-self).
– Distinguishing between temporary experiences and abiding insights that transform one’s sense of self and world.Reification and Conceptual Constructs
– How language and thought solidify fleeting phenomena into fixed entities, including the notion of a personal “I.”
– Madhyamaka teachings on emptiness, comparing Tsongkhapa’s “no inherent existence” with other schools that emphasize the dissolution of all conceptual imputation.Total Exertion
– A nondual sense of intimate connection with all phenomena (including past and future) while preserving the diversity of appearances.
– Demonstrates that the dissolution of inherent existence does not erase or collapse conventional distinctions.Taoist Parallels
– Wu Wei (non-agency) resonates with no-self and effortless action in Buddhism.
– Emphasis on Qi, continuous transformation, and alignment with natural patterns.
– Later Taoist works incorporate “inner light” teachings with possible Buddhist influence.Practice Approaches
– Emphasis on sincere questioning, deconstruction of assumptions, and mindfulness or Vipashyana.
– Importance of matching intellectual inquiry with direct experiential practice to move from fleeting glimpses to stable realization.
CONCLUSION
• The meeting closes on the topic of integrating these insights—Anatta, total exertion, Taoist philosophy—into everyday life.
• John Tan’s repeated guidance is to keep investigating one’s direct experience and be “very sincere, very objective” in seeing how concepts shape perception.
• While experiences like “I AM” or a glimpse of spacious awareness can be profound, the deeper transformation occurs through consistent insight into no-self, emptiness, and the effortless interrelatedness of all phenomena.
This synopsis captures the main flow of the discussion, from background and personal spiritual history to detailed analysis of concepts such as anatta, reification, and Taoist parallels. It highlights how the group explores these teachings in a lively, conversational manner, grounding philosophical points in lived experience.
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