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In Praise of the Dharmadhatu and other comments

  • Soh Wei Yu Although certain breakthrough into No-Self and Non-Dual has occurred, still stuck at stage 4.

    2008:


    (6:47 PM) Thusness: Jeff Foster and Steven Norquist... ai.. :)
    (6:47 PM) Thusness: got potential but wasted. :P

    (jeff foster also stuck at stage 4)

    2008:

    (10:13 PM) AEN: btw manifestation = consciousness rite
    (10:13 PM) AEN: like steven norquist say Universe=Consciousness
    (10:14 PM) Thusness: They become 'hearing' when thought of conceptually
    (10:15 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:15 PM) Thusness: Yes what steven said is not wrong but it is only the start of non-duality
    (10:15 PM) Thusness: I told u not to get confused
    (10:16 PM) Thusness: u have to understand what is the essence and don't get urself mixed up
    (10:17 PM) Thusness: When I spoke to u non-dual, u talk about I AM.
    (10:17 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:18 PM) AEN: but wat i said is not I AM mah :P
    (10:18 PM) Thusness: When I talk to u DO, u told me about Brahman.
    (10:19 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:20 PM) AEN: btw i noticed 18 dhatus are is not just talking about pure consciousness, its about manifestation as inseparable from conditions... right?
    (10:20 PM) Thusness: I m telling u about 'originate dependently', u r looking at the Brahman concept
    (10:21 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:21 PM) Thusness: U r looking always for a consciousness
    (10:22 PM) Thusness: That is no different from the Brahman concept
    (10:23 PM) Thusness: Has buddha taught that?
    (10:23 PM) Thusness: U posted something in longchen's forum that Buddha reprimanded a monk.
    (10:23 PM) AEN: buddha taught there is consciousness but isnt a permanent essence and is inseparable from conditions isnt it
    (10:24 PM) Thusness: So what is meant by inseparable?

    2009:


    (7:14 PM) Thusness: need to re-organise ur blogspot a bit.
    (7:14 PM) Thusness: some not so good stuff can eliminate
    it is better to post good articles
    (7:16 PM) AEN: icic.. ok
    (7:16 PM) AEN: u can help me delete also when u see fit :P cos u are moderator there also
    (7:41 PM) AEN: hmm
    so what do u tink shld be removed
    (7:43 PM) Thusness: steven norquist since his understanding is terribly distorted. :P
    (7:44 PM) Thusness: lankavatra sutra, sounded not that correct at times, inaudible phrases all around
    (7:45 PM) Thusness: the buddha nature is not I AM, think needs a lot of refining...
    i think u got from many places right?
    (7:45 PM) Thusness: like no flow like that
    :P
    (7:51 PM) AEN: hahaha
    icic..
    lankavatara sutra i only left a short msg.. u saw?
    (7:52 PM) AEN: steven norquist that article is alright right? :P
    (7:52 PM) Thusness: that article is alright and in fact good. (Soh: the article is http://www.spiritualteachers.org/what-is-enlightenment/ )
    However the book he wrote and sold to u is very misleading.
    so worried ppl get wrong advices and views

    2010:


    Session Start: Tuesday, 25 May, 2010

    (5:58 PM) Thusness: Not exactly
    (5:59 PM) Thusness: the clarity of anatta and emptiness is more like the description of Tata and stainlessness
    (6:00 PM) AEN: oic..
    (6:00 PM) Thusness: i cannot see the experiential insight of anatta
    (6:00 PM) AEN: icic..
    (6:01 PM) Thusness: in this description (by steven norquist)
    but there is advaita experience
    (6:01 PM) AEN: oic.. but he says there is no higher self or ultimate being, only manifestation
    (6:02 PM) Thusness: u r looking for words...i am looking for actual experience
  • What is Enlightenment? As in Spiritual Enlightenment - SpiritualTeachers.org
    spiritualteachers.org
    What is Enlightenment? As in Spiritual Enlightenment - SpiritualTeachers.org
    What is Enlightenment? As in Spiritual Enlightenment - SpiritualTeachers.org
  • Soh Wei Yu Steven Norquist is still stuck with Brahman.

    In 2013 he wrote to me:

    Wei Yu, Manifestation and Consciousness are one and the same. I said this, as you correctly pointed out, in my essay. I have also said this in my book. Manifestation cannot exist without consciousness since manifestation is consciousness. But as Advaita points out, consciousness can exist without manifestation. Consciousness is the ghostly feeling of existence. The shining light of presence. This feeling of existence is before manifestation, in manifestation and after manifestation. Manifestation arises from this existence/consciousness, lives for a time and then returns to existence/consciousness. The shining light of presence that shows forth in manifestation, is also just as bright without manifestation. It is not a witness, or a centered presence, or an observer, or a self. It is infinite non locatable existence/consciousness. Hopefully this clarifies things a bit. Steven
  • Soh Wei Yu <-- is="" mind="" one="" span="" that="">
    • Dieter Vollmuth "This feeling of existence is before manifestation, in manifestation and after manifestation. Manifestation arises from this existence/consciousness, lives for a time and then returns to existence/consciousness."

      Yes, one mind, background from which something other arises and falls back into. Shit, that I have not noticed in the video.
  • Soh Wei Yu Dieter Vollmuth

    He described no-mind experience but not the breakthrough in view that qualifies as realization of anatta (For readers on blog, See:     Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta). Therefore although experience is non-dual, his understanding of consciousness is like Brahman - unchanging, independent, although nondual with manifestation.
  • Write a reply...





  • Soh Wei Yu Tony Parsons wrote to me the no mirror insight in response in 2013:

    Dear Wei Yu

    Thank you for your interesting email and I feel it is better if we speak together.

    Please therefore give me a phone number and a good time to call you.

    In the meantime, since we are using words to point to the unknowable, perhaps we need to be clear about what some words and ideas mean to us.

    From this "perspective" consciousness is a function of knowing or awareness which only arises in the deluded story of me and has no meaning or relevance.

    Therefore all of the Norquist ideas about consciousness are still dualistic . . . there is no before, in or after manifestation, nor is there a "feeling of existence", nor does manifestation arise from consciousness, live and then return.

    What is your meaning for substratum? What is your vivid reflection? How can there be what you call "non-dual awareness".

    For here there is no union, container, or mirror.

    best wishes
    Tony

  • Write a reply...





  • Soh Wei Yu From this I can tell that Tony Parson's insight is deeper. Of course, that is still not Thusness Stage 6.
    1
  • Soh Wei Yu Session Start: Monday, October 13, 2008

    (9:36 AM) AEN: oh i sent u an email asking u some stuff
    (9:36 AM) Thusness: steve's book?
    (9:36 AM) AEN: ya
    (9:37 AM) Thusness: ya read
    (9:38 AM) Thusness: i told u to just focus on DO and emptiness.
    (9:38 AM) Thusness: how is it that u want to learn all wrong stuff.
    (9:38 AM) AEN: oic..
    (9:38 AM) AEN: but wat he said is wrong rite
    (9:38 AM) AEN: about the time thing
    (9:38 AM) AEN: its v confusing lol
    (9:38 AM) Thusness: u just to have rest ur view on Emptiness and DO.
    (9:39 AM) Thusness: Isn't that enough for u to cope?
    (9:39 AM) Thusness: and use it to orientate urself and replace ur 'self' view.
    (9:39 AM) Thusness: i think i will write something later in the now-for-you forum.
    (9:40 AM) Thusness: There is no ending to all erroneous views and if u continue to bark on all these views, u r wasting unnecessary time.
    (9:40 AM) Thusness: rather focus on Emptiness and DO and go non-conceptual
    (9:40 AM) AEN: oic..
    (9:40 AM) Thusness: so that u can experience liberation in real time.
    (9:41 AM) Thusness: Do not waste time on pursuing wrong ideas and figuring what it meant.
    (9:41 AM) AEN: icic..
    2
  • Dieter Vollmuth OK, I understand
  • Soh Wei Yu 2008:


    (5:28 PM) AEN: what does this mean, by nagarjuna:
    38. When eye and form assume their right relation,
    Appearances appear without a blur.
    Since these neither arise nor cease,
    They are the dharmadhatu, though they are imagined to be otherwise.

    39. When sound and ear assume their right relation,
    A consciousness free of thought occurs.
    These three are in essence the dharmadhatu, free of other characteristics,
    But they become "hearing" when thought of conceptually.

    40. Dependent upon the nose and an odor, one smells.
    And as with the example of form there is neither arising nor cessation,
    But in dependence upon the nose-consciousness’s experience,
    The dharmadhatu is thought to be smell.

    41. The tongue’s nature is emptiness.
    The sphere of taste is voidness as well.
    These are in essence the dharmadhatu
    And are not the causes of the taste consciousness.

    42. The pure body’s essence,
    The characteristics of the object touched,
    The tactile consciousness free of conditions—
    These are called the dharmadhatu.
    (5:28 PM) AEN:
    43. The phenomena that appear to the mental consciousness, the chief of them all,
    Are conceptualized and then superimposed.
    When this activity is abandoned, phenomena’s lack of self-essence is known.
    Knowing this, meditate on the dharmadhatu.

    44. And so is all that is seen or heard or smelled,
    Tasted, touched, and imagined,
    When yogis [and yoginis]* understand these in this manner,
    All their wonderful qualities are brought to consummation.

    45. Perception’s doors in eyes and ears and nose,
    In tongue and body and the mental gate—
    All these six are utterly pure.
    These consciousnesses’ purity itself is suchness’ defining characteristic.
    (8:36 PM) Thusness: This is truly exellent expression!
    (8:36 PM) AEN: which
    (8:36 PM) AEN: u mean nagarjuna?
    (8:36 PM) Thusness: 38-45
    (8:37 PM) AEN: icic..
    (8:37 PM) Thusness: from nagarjuna?
    (8:37 PM) Thusness: icic
    (8:37 PM) AEN: ya
    (8:38 PM) Thusness: Actually this is what that is expressed in DO and seeing the 5 aggregates as our Buddha Nature.
    (8:38 PM) AEN: oic..
    (8:39 PM) Thusness: As for the earlier texts that are posted, it is misrepresented by Steve Norquist. Sad.
    (8:39 PM) AEN: oic.. wat u mean
    (8:40 PM) Thusness: was the earlier text u posted from his book?
    (8:40 PM) AEN: yea
    (8:40 PM) Thusness: This is the result that does not come from right view.
    (8:40 PM) Thusness: Letting the momentum carries one away.
    (8:41 PM) AEN: oic..
    (8:41 PM) AEN: wats wrong with wat he said
    (8:44 PM) Thusness: There is non-dual experience but it is misunderstood in many ways at least from my perspective. It is not so important what's wrong with what he said. More advisable to understand the verses posted. They are very well expressed.
    (8:44 PM) Thusness: It doesn't matter who wrote those verses but the way it is expressed is truly excellent.
    (8:45 PM) Thusness: so ur duty is not to pick on what are others mistake but understand the right view.
    (8:45 PM) Thusness: and practice so that u can experience in real time what that is being expressed in the verses.
    (8:46 PM) Thusness: Ultimately what u want is to directly experience liberation.
    (8:47 PM) AEN: icic..
    (8:47 PM) Thusness: by the way where is the url for the verses u quoted?
    (8:47 PM) AEN: oh wait ah
    (8:49 PM) AEN: http://www.empty-universe.com/prajn.../dharmadhatustotra.htm

    (9:46 PM) Thusness: Now what did I tell u yesterday about '?' (Yin4)?
    (9:47 PM) Thusness: About from 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus to DO.
    (9:47 PM) AEN: with condition of eye, form arise, with ears, sound arise... awareness is not mirror reflecting but is manifestation?
    (9:47 PM) Thusness: What does that mean?
    (9:49 PM) Thusness: I wrote as comment and re-commented. Knowing that u will read pass the para I cut and paste to u saying that it is important.
    (9:50 PM) AEN: there is no subject, only manifestation and everything else are conditions? awareness is not reflecting external conditions
    (9:52 PM) Thusness: yes what else?
    (9:54 PM) AEN: it is an instantaneous manifestation where nothing is excluded, the universe is giving its very best for this moment to arise? and also vividly manifest and thoroughly gone without traces
    (9:57 PM) AEN: what is heard is awareness?
    (9:59 PM) AEN: it is conceptualized as hearing when it is seen as awareness reflecting isnt it? whereas its just a dependently originated manifestation
    (10:00 PM) Thusness: What is manifestation?
    (10:00 PM) AEN: sounds, sights, etc
    (10:02 PM) Thusness: What are these?
    (10:03 PM) AEN: pure consciousness?
    (10:03 PM) Thusness: What pure consciousness?
    (10:04 PM) Thusness: Anywhere mentioned in the verses?
    (10:04 PM) AEN: A consciousness free of thought occurs
    (10:04 PM) Thusness: That is pure consciousness?
    (10:05 PM) AEN: ya
    (10:06 PM) AEN: u mean its not? :P
    (10:07 PM) Thusness: U still see in terms of entity.
    (10:07 PM) AEN: oic
    (10:08 PM) AEN: wat u saying is pure consciousness isnt a metaphysical essence rite
    (10:09 PM) AEN: its manifestation and inseparable from conditions?
    (10:12 PM) Thusness: Manifestation already includes conditions and consciousness
    (10:12 PM) Thusness: Inseparable
    (10:13 PM) Thusness: These 3 r in essence the Dharmadhatu
  • ww17.empty-universe.com
    ww17.empty-universe.com
    ww17.empty-universe.com
  • Soh Wei Yu (10:13 PM) AEN: when condition is, manifestation is, when condition isnt, manifestation isnt, so therefore inseparable?
    (10:13 PM) AEN: btw manifestation = consciousness rite
    (10:13 PM) AEN: like steven norquist say Universe=Consciousness
    (10:14 PM) Thusness: They become 'hearing' when thought of conceptually
    (10:15 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:15 PM) Thusness: Yes what steven said is not wrong but it is only the start of non-duality
    (10:15 PM) Thusness: I told u not to get confused
    (10:16 PM) Thusness: u have to understand what is the essence and don't get urself mixed up
    (10:17 PM) Thusness: When I spoke to u non-dual, u talk about I AM.
    (10:17 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:18 PM) AEN: but wat i said is not I AM mah 　
    (10:18 PM) Thusness: When I talk to u DO, u told me about Brahman.
    (10:19 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:20 PM) AEN: btw i noticed 18 dhatus are is not just talking about pure consciousness, its about manifestation as inseparable from conditions... right?
    (10:20 PM) Thusness: I m telling u about 'originate dependently', u r looking at the Brahman concept
    (10:21 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:21 PM) Thusness: U r looking always for a consciousness
    (10:22 PM) Thusness: That is no different from the Brahman concept
    (10:23 PM) Thusness: Has buddha taught that?
    (10:23 PM) Thusness: U posted something in longchen's forum that Buddha reprimanded a monk.
    (10:23 PM) AEN: buddha taught there is consciousness but isnt a permanent essence and is inseparable from conditions isnt it
    (10:24 PM) Thusness: So what is meant by inseparable?
    (10:24 PM) AEN: ya he reprimanded a monk who told others that buddha thought that there is a consciousness that feels, etc, and is that consciousness that reincarnates
    (10:25 PM) AEN: hmm...
    (10:25 PM) AEN: like sound of music is inseparable from speakers, electricity, CPU, etc? 　
    (10:26 PM) Thusness: Don't get confused first. Just focus on each particular category of dhatus
    (10:27 PM) AEN: ok
    (10:28 PM) Thusness: U see arising and ceasing because ur mind link the 'meanings' of these words
    (10:29 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:30 PM) AEN: so when ear meets sound, simultaneously there is consciousness
    (10:30 PM) AEN: hence inseparable
    (10:30 PM) AEN: right?
    (10:33 PM) Thusness: And cannot experience directly
    (10:34 PM) AEN: oic
    (10:37 PM) Thusness: What that is described is real experience of our pristine nature.
    (10:37 PM) Thusness: Expressed in DO.
    (10:38 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:39 PM) Thusness: Therefore if u run after the meaning literally u don't understand.
    (10:40 PM) Thusness: But those practitioners with direct insight knows it immediately.
    (10:40 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:40 PM) Thusness: Arising but not arising from, no mirror reflecting but as manifestation
    (10:41 PM) Thusness: R all expressions of this experience
    (10:41 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:42 PM) Thusness: This non-inherent that originate dependently
    (10:46 PM) AEN: so how to experience conditions in real experience?
    (10:47 PM) AEN: causes and conditions do not 'create' manifestation otherwise that would be separate, so nothing is arising 'from' causes and condition, but that manifestation is arising simultaneously and interdependently with conditions, so in that way they are inseparable?
    (10:49 PM) Thusness: No
    (10:49 PM) AEN: ic..
    (10:50 PM) Thusness: There is a difference between expressing direct experience and 'reason' out to convince the mind
    (10:51 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: Reasoning out there is no self is different from expressing the experience of no-self
    (10:52 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:52 PM) Thusness: Reasoning out DO is different from expressing DO from direct experience
    (10:53 PM) Thusness: In expressing direct experience, there is no why. &why's
    (10:53 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:54 PM) Thusness: 'why' is provisional for the conventional mind to understand dualistically
    (10:54 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:56 PM) AEN: so how do u express DO
    (10:57 PM) AEN: Arising but not arising from, no mirror reflecting but as manifestation?
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: Actually it is to point out the more subtle experience of a moment of arising
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: The empty nature
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: To do away with that 'essence' or substantiality
    (11:00 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:02 PM) Thusness: Because the experience has de-constructed from all definitions with words, there is mere experiencing
    (11:02 PM) Thusness: Conditions and manifestation is one reality
    (11:03 PM) Thusness: One action
    (11:04 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:06 PM) Thusness: As for u, although u say inseparable, what u did is u still separate but attempt to re-integrate in thoughts
    (11:07 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:07 PM) Thusness: Always attempting this way
    (11:08 PM) Thusness: But Dharma is not meant to be understood this way
    (11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:09 PM) Thusness: Views are all provisional to point out certain mis-conceptions
    (11:09 PM) Thusness: So that we r not misled
    (11:10 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:11 PM) Thusness: After that all must be direct experiences
    (11:11 PM) AEN: so the experience of dependent arising is everything as a seamless whole right?
    (11:12 PM) Thusness: Yes
    (11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:14 PM) Thusness: An to bring out the dependent, essenceless, empty nature
    (11:15 PM) AEN: but actions are also dependent arising isnt it, there is no actor, only one action including all 'external' circumstance and mental intentions. there is no self only manifestation interacting
    (11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:15 PM) Thusness: All attempts and questions r useless
    (11:16 PM) Thusness: This is not the way
    (11:16 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:16 PM) Thusness: U have to experience directly
    (11:17 PM) Thusness: Then u describe the experience
    (11:17 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:17 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:17 PM) Thusness: U don't reason out no-self
    (11:17 PM) Thusness: U experience
    (11:17 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:18 PM) Thusness: U don't really reason out the emptiness nature of pristine awareness
    (11:18 PM) Thusness: U experience this nature
    (11:18 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:19 PM) Thusness: U cannot say 'because', there is no why it is empty
    (11:19 PM) Thusness: U cannot reason 'why' it is separated
    (11:19 PM) Thusness: Nothing is.
    (11:21 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:21 PM) Thusness: it can be expressed as non-arising
    (11:21 PM) AEN: when u say causes and conditions theres this tendency to make causes and conditions into entities interacting in space and time and but the point of buddha was not to separate causes and conditions but to point out everything is happening as a seamless whole right?
    (11:22 PM) AEN: so bcos everything is happening seamlessly there is no 'because' and 'why'
    (11:22 PM) AEN: ?
    (11:22 PM) Thusness: It can be expressed as not a mirror reflecting but as manifestation
    (11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:23 PM) Thusness: For non-arising does not mean the absence of appearances
    (11:25 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:27 PM) Thusness: It is to express, to point to u a direct experience that contradicts the conventional meaning of 'arising'
    (11:30 PM) Thusness: It is to convey to u that appearances continue to manifest but there is no movement or sensation of 'something' arising
    (11:30 PM) Thusness: Like thoughtlessness is not without thought
    (11:30 PM) AEN: there is no 'arising' because 'arising' is just a mental construct that gives substantiality and existence to appearance rite, like in Point A the entity arose and it persists until Point B then annihilates
    (11:31 PM) AEN: icic..
    • Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma on the Inseparability of Awareness and Conditions
    www.awakeningtoreality.com
    Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma on the Inseparability of Awareness and…
    Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma on the Inseparability of Awareness and Conditions
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  • Dieter Vollmuth Thank you Soh, must read this first.
    By the way: that Link does not function:
    http://ww17.empty-universe.com/praj.../dharmadhatustotra.htm
    • ww17.empty-universe.com
    ww17.empty-universe.com
    ww17.empty-universe.com
    2
  • Nagarjuna - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu - Chinese Buddhist Encyclopedia
    chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com
    Nagarjuna - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu - Chinese Buddhist…
    Nagarjuna - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu - Chinese Buddhist Encyclopedia
  • Dieter Vollmuth seems to be very tricky not to fall in traps
    1
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Dieter Vollmuth on Anatta, Part 2

Posted in

I found the key this morning: The problem was that the observer was held on. Suddenly it was seen that "the observer" is only the objectification of observe-ing. And the "I" only the objectification of the I-ing. When this was seen, these ...-ings all came to the foreground and suddenly there was only these ...-ings without exception.
This had happened many times in half sleep before, but I couldn't find out what made the difference and prevented it from being experienced even when fully awake. The key is to simply experience EVERYTHING as a seamless event-ing - including I-AM-ing, I-ing, feel-ing, see-ing, hear-ing and observe-ing. And then all experience-ing is vivid, direct and always fresh.
That is no new state it was so the whole time.

  • Winston Tg Verbs, not nouns?
  • Dieter Vollmuth For all software engineers: If you have a data-object, mostly there are also functions associated and part of the object. For example, Part of a Floating-Point-Object is a function ".Int" wich returns the integer-part of the Floating-Value (before the point).

    Think in exactly this way about the know-ing, experience-ing, see-ing, hear-ing, feel-ing, observe-ing, I-AM-ing, I-ing ...- ing. These are simply data-objects with a included function "know-ing". And this function is the awareness.

    So, there is not a "subject" that sees "objects" - there are only objects wich see itself, using the associated and included function "know-ing" = "awareness".

    All the rest is simply believing: "If there are objects experienced, there MUST be also an experiencer", which is false.
    1




    [7:20 PM, 3/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Seems like he [Dieter] is clear about anatta now
    [7:21 PM, 3/15/2020] John Tan: Yes seems so.  When u have that insight, it has to b an experiential insight...such insight cannot be theoretical as experiences turned foreground...in this breakthrough.  Awareness disappears as a mental constructs into the vividness of sounds, colors, smells, thoughts...etc.  still one needs to look deeply into mmk (Soh: The Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (Sanskrit) or Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way, is a foundational text of the Madhyamaka school of Mahayana philosophy, composed by Nagarjuna in approximately the second-third century CE.) to see how to deconstruct mental constructs and conventions of cause, effect, arising, existence, non-existence ...etc.  In order to understand these ongoing vivid appearances free from the conventional extremes...not just non-conceptuality.
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