Emptiness Is Not Relational Ontology: Relations Without Relata
A dialogue on dependent arising, emptying conditions, and the danger of turning emptiness into either relational existence or mere negation
“Dependent arising is not saying that there are things and that they are made of relations—that is relational ontology. It is a valid conventional description within the domain of conceptual designation.”
Mr. Y’s Shared Reflection
Nihilism says, in effect, that nothing has reality, value, or meaning. Emptiness says something very different: that whatever reality, value, and meaning there are do not rest on independent substances or intrinsic essences. Nihilism flattens the world into negation. Emptiness reveals the world as relational. Nihilism destroys significance by denying the reality of phenomena. Emptiness re-situates significance within the web of conditions that make phenomena possible. These are not neighboring positions. They move in opposite directions. Nihilism says the world is too empty to matter. Emptiness says the world matters precisely because nothing in it stands alone.
But emptiness is not below phenomena. It is not behind them. It is not the secret ingredient from which they are made. It is their structural mode of being. The tree, the body, the thought, the river, the institution, the self—none of these conceals emptiness as a hidden content. Each is empty because each exists structurally, relationally, dependently, without intrinsic core. Emptiness is therefore not what remains after things are taken away. It is what things have been all along once the fantasy of self-existence is removed.
Physics has shown that matter is not the kind of compact solidity common sense once imagined. What appears hard and substantial at the human scale turns out, at other scales, to involve fields, interactions, structural regularities, and dynamic relations that do not resemble the furniture of ordinary intuition. Biology has shown that organisms are not sealed units but living exchanges with environments, microbiomes, ecologies, and evolutionary histories. Cognitive science has increasingly suggested that perception is an active construction shaped by prediction, selection, and embodied need rather than passive copying. None of these developments imply that reality is unreal. They imply something subtler and more demanding: that the reality available to ordinary intuition is filtered through forms of organization that privilege usability over completeness. The solid world is not simply an illusion, but neither is it the final truth.
The social sciences extend this movement further by exposing how much of what appears individually possessed is actually relationally constituted. Institutions are not things in the way stones are things. They exist through repetition, recognition, enforcement, and shared expectation. Money exists because patterns of trust, law, exchange, and symbolic coordination sustain it. Nations persist through narratives, borders, administrative systems, collective memory, and ritual forms of belonging. Identities are formed through recognition, language, power, exclusion, aspiration, and role-performance. None of these phenomena are unreal because they lack intrinsic substance. They are real precisely because patterns of relation sustain them and because effects follow from their organization. Social reality is perhaps the clearest domain in which object-thinking becomes obviously misleading. To ask where “the institution itself” exists apart from the practices that constitute it is to begin seeing the problem. The institution is real, but not as a self-standing thing. It is real as organized relation.
Emptiness is therefore inseparable from dependent origination. It is not one doctrine placed beside another, as though one first believed in dependent arising and then later added emptiness on top. They are two ways of expressing the same insight. To say that something is empty is to say that it arises dependently. To say that something arises dependently is to say that it is empty of intrinsic self-being. Emptiness is not a second hidden truth behind dependent reality. It is dependent reality understood correctly. What appears exists, but only through a network of conditions. Emptiness names the fact that there is no extra metaphysical core hiding beneath this dependence.
So the inquiry ends where every genuine inquiry must end: not in the possession of a final object called Truth, but in a transformed relation to what is always already here. The room is still full of objects; the world is still full of persons, systems, histories, desires, losses, and fragile forms of care. Nothing theatrical has vanished. And yet nothing is quite the same, because what once appeared as a room of separate things now appears as a local articulation of a larger weave. The cup, the table, the body, the memory, the voice, the grief, the promise, the mountain, the city, the species, the world—all remain, but none remain as self-enclosed substances. They remain as patterns in the fabric. To understand this is not to leave the world behind. It is to enter it more completely. The fabric does not stop weaving because one has seen it. It goes on: holding by not holding, enduring by changing, cohering without foundation, connecting without external glue, giving rise to worlds of form without ever hardening into independent things. What is finally revealed is neither thing nor void, but the relational texture of reality itself—the fabric that holds everything together because nothing in it was ever separate enough to fall entirely out of the weave.
Dialogue
What do you think about what he said?
That is not emptiness.
I have not fully read it, but from glancing through it, it seems that the author tries to talk about interdependence while still establishing everything as real and existing. So it is not free from extremes or svabhāva. It may end up in the view of dependent existence.
Note from Soh: Also see The Correct View of Dependent Origination and Does dependent arising require some “thing” to depend on?
Yes. Dependent arising is not saying that there are things and that they are made of relations—that is relational ontology. It is a valid conventional description within the domain of conceptual designation.
And what is expressed is more like dependent arising, although emptiness cannot be understood apart from dependent arising.
So we can say that what is valid in the context of the conceptual mind is dependent arising. Emptiness is not that relational or conventional description itself, but the absence of essence discovered when that dependently arisen conventionality is analyzed. Yet emptiness cannot be understood apart from dependent arising, because without dependent arising, emptiness collapses into mere negation.
The problem with my video is that it can only be five to eight minutes.
So sometimes people might misunderstand it as relational ontology.
Hopefully the technology will advance in a year to allow one-hour-long videos.
Also, I try not to talk about the taste when the view matures.
If emptiness lands as mere negation, then it is nihilism. So we must see dependent arising, and in the formulation, see that they are empty.
In other words, the emptiness of emptiness that we commonly talk about is not about treating emptiness as a “substance.” That is the easy part. It is attachment to emptiness as negation, and not understanding dependent arising as formation. That is the incurable disease. I actually have several videos on it, but it is difficult to express properly, and NotebookLM cannot generate this out.
So although we say, “Oh, that is relational ontology,” it is empty too. Practitioners who do not know how relational ontology works conventionally, and who just rest in negation thinking that this is groundlessness—treating it as an ultimate solvent—fall into the incurable disease that is difficult to see but easy to land in, in my opinion. Therefore the mistake is not merely reifying relational ontology. The opposite mistake is worse.
Emptying conditions is key. At the back of our mind, there is a deep conviction that conditions are really established. This is not easy to deconstruct. And the emptying must be understood from clearly seeing active formation. Otherwise, how are we to see relations without relata, causal efficacy without causal power, designation without naming and labeling, functioning without essence, and appearance without any “thingness”? If we do not clearly see that, we will not know how dependent arising can map to our actual experience. Mere negation will not be able to see that. It will only land us in a mistaken groundlessness due to relentless negation. But clear seeing will open us up entirely, effortlessly, as natural and primordial freedom. That, then, is spontaneous presence. So MMK is no different from Dzogchen if understood correctly. It is the view that will lead us from Prajñā to Yeshe.
“Emptying conditions is key. The emptying must be understood from clearly seeing active formation. Otherwise, how are we to see relations without relata, causal efficacy without causal power, designation without naming and labeling, functioning without essence, and appearance without any ‘thingness’?”
