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  Author[1:03 PM, 1/9/2021] John Tan: "John Tan did not consider the differences and distinctions as mere hairsplitting. (Maybe I'll write more later on)"? What u mean?[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: i think you mentioned before that yogacara is more towards the nondual effortless radiance but madhyamika puts aside that emphasis and is more on presence is empty in nature[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: something like that[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but i still dont really understand the differences lol havent studied them much[1:32 PM, 1/9/2021] John Tan: Yes. That is y I tell u don't anyhow comment. The reason y I tell u to focus on the 3 aspects of conceptualities is prevent u from wasting time on those tibetan polemics so that u don't lost track on what that is essential to practice. Some points r important and will trigger insights that bring abt greater release to mind attachments that r difficult and too subtle to detect while some r like what Tyler said "hairsplitting" or worst still, pure stereotyping and strawman agruments. I will go through with u later or write something about it. However at the rate u r sending me all these questions everyday, I dunno when can I even start to summarize as almost all my available free time r taken up by ur "haressments" Author[1:03 PM, 1/9/2021] John Tan: "John Tan did not consider the differences and distinctions as mere hairsplitting. (Maybe I'll write more later on)"? What u mean?[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: i think you mentioned before that yogacara is more towards the nondual effortless radiance but madhyamika puts aside that emphasis and is more on presence is empty in nature[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: something like that[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but i still dont really understand the differences lol havent studied them much[1:32 PM, 1/9/2021] John Tan: Yes. That is y I tell u don't anyhow comment. The reason y I tell u to focus on the 3 aspects of conceptualities is prevent u from wasting time on those tibetan polemics so that u don't lost track on what that is essential to practice. Some points r important and will trigger insights that bring abt greater release to mind attachments that r difficult and too subtle to detect while some r like what Tyler said "hairsplitting" or worst still, pure stereotyping and strawman agruments. I will go through with u later or write something about it. However at the rate u r sending me all these questions everyday, I dunno when can I even start to summarize as almost all my available free time r taken up by ur "haressments"   . .
I
 always want to ground scholastic debates in actual lived awakening, so I
 wonder, if a person gets non-dual (stage 4) and also actually perceives
 their mindstream as impermanent and momentary, would that automatically
 get them stage 5?  If so that would mean all harisplitting debate about
 whether non-dual consciousness "inherently exists" in Yogcara would be 
unnecessary.

Author
Mr. TJ
 I do not think Yogacara is stage 4 kind of one mind.Kyle shared months ago,
John Tan said, 
This
 article is very well written and yogacara never really explicitly said 
that mind is ultimate.  This idea privileging mind as ultimate over the 
relative phenomena was a later devleopment.

OLD.REDDIT.COM
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga

Author
John Tan did not consider the differences and distinctions as mere hairsplitting. (Maybe I'll write more later on)

Author
Mr. RDT
 Even Hinayana accepts consciousness as merely momentary stream of 
moments without Self. But unlike Hinayana, Yogacara refutes external 
phenomena (which Madhyamika may or may not conventionally refute 
depending on which type of Madhyamika). It talks about twofold emptiness
 as well.
Cittamatra
 to me is Anatta with extra "form is empty cause it has the same nature 
as mental objects". Actually if we ground the discussion in Skandhas 
then the only difference between Anatta of the Pali Canon and Cittamatra
 is that Cittamatra says that the Skandha of Form is not substantially 
different from the mental Skandhas. Or we could say that all the objects
 of senses are mental objects. 
Soh Wei Yu
  speaks about how Anatta on its own can have a taste of physicality. 
Cittamatra dissolves that. However the emptiness of mental objects and 
moments of consciousness is not fully realised in Cittamatra. 
Author
[1:08 AM, 8/4/2020] Soh Wei Yu: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30336&start=20 - malcolm seems to say here that yogacara does not lead to 1st bhumi
[1:53
 AM, 8/4/2020] John Tan: It depends. Yogacara doesn't really claim mind 
is real ontologically from Dan Lusthaus if I rem correctly, it is 
cittamatra that says that...but u better double check ...  It is a later
 devleopment from what I read

DHARMAWHEEL.NET
What is the nature of mind? - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel

Sure
 Sravakas see no self. They however see moments of consciousness and 
smallest particles of matter as ultimate. Pratyekabuddhas and 
Cittamatrins realise the emptiness of particles but not of moments. 
Svatantrika Madhyamaka realises the emptiness of all phenomena and 
Prasangika empties the emptiness itself. 
Cittamatra explains the relative as mind-stuff while Madhyamaka does not take that stance. 
At least thats how I understand it.
Now
 Shentongpas of Dolpopa sort backtrack to Thusness stage 4 while those 
like Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso seem to say Shentong is just there to 
remind that experiental presence/luminosity aspect is important and 
should not be denied.

Soh Wei Yu
 same as Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso. According to him too Cittamatra doesnt lead to 1st Bodhisattva Bhumi.Robert
 sure that's how it should work "according to the books", but who ever 
really directly realized anatman and momentariness per Shravaka 
Abhidharma and then when on realize that form is mind per Cittamatra and
 then realize moments and emptiness itself are empty per Madhyamaka?  I 
strongly suspect the answer is no one, and the idea of ordering tenet 
systems like this is purely doxographical.  
Mr. TJ
 also my friend went through the 5 stages of meditation on emptiness 
program based on the teachings of Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso. He relates 
that at each level his experience perfectly matched what the program was
 pointing to. His conclusion was that this shows how view and experience
 are connected.IIRC
 KTGR's stages are based on doxographical categories, so are you saying 
your friend got full on anatta realization as the first stage?
That would really be something.
Soh Wei Yu
 some of the earliest Yogacara texts explicitly accuse the Madhyamaka 
view of nihilism, that's something you don't see brought up much when 
people try to say that  what the early Yogacarins really meant was the 
same as Madhyamaka.  See Eckel's "Undigested pride: Bhaviveka on the 
dispute between Madhyamaka and Yogacara"
Author
[8:31
 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: The more vivid, more clear, more blissful, more
 convincing of effortless, non-dual luminosity, the more yogacara-like u
 become...lol
[8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Since u send me so many articles about madhyamaka...lol
[8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Madhyamaka, emptiness is to get rid of that.
[8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: To uproot from that.
[8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Get it?
[8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Get rid of what.. seeing the luminous display as real?
[8:34 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: That emphasis...
[8:34 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[8:36 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Because of that uprooting, everything is an illusion despite vivid appearances.
[8:37 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: So presence is also empty.
[9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: If u say it is not intrinsic essence, u r saying it conditioned.
[9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah clarity is conditioned, manifestation only
[9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: U need to know what is conditioned...
[9:31
 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Mahamudra, zen, Dzogchen....direct pointing is 
to directly authenticate this unconditioned that is unmade.
[9:42
 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Not sure what do u mean by unconditioned.. to
 me clarity is always manifestation and conditioned, but is unfabricated
[9:42 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Unconditioned means unmade...
[9:43 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[9:43 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: So u must sort out all these issues when studying
[9:44 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Now what exactly is mmk trying to cure...
[9:44 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Otherwise one might err towards over negation
[9:45 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: That is y yogacara mmk and yogacara svatantrika mmk.
[9:45
 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Its a bit like taoism.. tao is spontaneous 
and unfabricated, but at the same time not an ontological essence more 
like flow.. i see luminosity/manifestation/dharma as likewise. But in 
terms of D.O and emptiness
[9:45 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: When u say not an ontological essence, what do u mean?
[9:46 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Not an unconditioned undying Self or intrinsic essence
[9:46 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: When we use terms like this, we r using it loosely.  But when studying mmk, we can't.
[9:47 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: So there r two schools of thoughts, one is the gelug and the rest.
[9:47 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Means the purpose of mmk is to free one from conceptualities...or?

Doxographical
 but they reflect and meditate on each level for months. I've led an 
online retreat/course on emptiness and witnessed first hand that 
experience meditators can be brought to Anatta in the matter of weeks 
(not with 100% efficiency meaning but most of the group) provided they 
get the right tools and are dilligent. Of course that's nothing compared
 to Pali Canon where we have people bigger achievements like full 
Arhatship in similar or shorter spans of time. 
Interesting
Just
 to contribute to the discussion of “splitting hairs” about what 
realizations are achieved by different traditions & views:
here’s
 an interesting thread where Geoff Shatz and a few others discuss 
commentarial ideas on radical momentariness, mostly pointing towards not
 being able to justify such a “momentariness” teaching on the basis of 
the early Pāli texts in the first place...
DHAMMAWHEEL.COM
Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really? - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Cittamatra
 doesn't lead to the bhumis, but its founder Asanga is traditionally 
claimed to had been on the 3rd bhumi. The 3rd Karmapa used both 
approaches (and apparently not hierarchically). Mahamudra is filled with
 "mind-only" pointers. Tenets are spiritual techniques reified into 
systems.
Svatantrika
 and prasangika are supposed to have the exact same ultimate view 
(freedom from extremes), only different approaches to both ultimate and 
conventional. All this mapping and staging may keep people away from 
very valid instructions.
Since
 I used the term "splitting hairs" in the first place, I'll clarify that
 what I meant was focusing on using just the right language to describe 
things rather than the realization that is pointed to. Actually, the 
Mipham quote on reddit 
Soh Wei Yu
 shared addresses exactly what I was thinking about: Yogacara texts say 
the dependent nature "exists" and Madhyamikas immediately cry 
"eternalism"! But there are two ways to interpret this, and one actually
 doesn't contradict the intent of Madhyamaka.  
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