GG Soh, so abiding as awareness is not entirely wrong. Actually it is fact. All is mind, mind is empty and aware.

"But the mind is not just empty; while being empty, its characteristic, its defining characteristic, is awareness. Therefore, when the mind is described, terminology like the unity of cognitive lucidity and emptiness or the unity of awareness and emptiness is used. Unity here is meant very strongly. The nature of awareness is emptiness, and the nature of the mind's emptiness is awareness."

GGDeleted a few post of mine.

Soh Wei Yu GG, Since Awareness is empty, anything to abide in is delusion. Just the transience flows and knows without a knower, what is there to abide in?

"Awareness" is empty in the same way "weather" is empty and imputed (merely labelled) on the everchanging patterns of clouds, wind, rain, etc.



Soh Wei Yu  GG suddenly got reminded of a conversation I had with Seraph Tai (Edmond Cigale) in 2011:

I wrote back then:

What you have experienced is Thusness Stage 1 (see ). It is the experience and realization of I AM.

Many people (myself included, Thusness included) having realized the I AM would think that the final state/Nirvana is the state of effortless and permanent abidance in the Self, in other words moving from Savikalpa to Nirvikalpa samadhi.

However as we progress in the path, we realize that effortlessness comes not with abiding (that would still be effortful and has to do with your degree of mastery in concentration/abiding in what is deemed as the purest state of Presence) with the deepening of insights into non-dual, anatta, and shunyata. At that point, Presence-Awareness is felt everywhere, as everything, without center, circumference, point of reference, without any attempt needed to abide because it is seen that there is no 'purest state of Presence' to abide in/as. I AM is not more I AM (not more special or ultimate) than a sound! A scent! A sight! Transience reveals itself as non-dual (without subject-object, observer-observed dichotomy) presence-awareness. This is the beginning of non-dual insight and effortlessness - complete effortlessness comes with the maturation of this non-dual insight into anatta and shunyata.

So it is important to progress to further insights from I AM, is to first focus on the four aspects of I AM, then non-dual, ...etc. Even if you attain mastery of samadhi and achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi (permanent abidance as Self), still, further insights that allows full effortlessness is not revealed, unless further investigations are undertaken.

I have discussed this in Kenneth Folk forum:

Here's my e-book:

Soh Wei Yu He later realised anatta after my pointing out and wrote:

Seraph Tai wrote:

I had, what I think you refer here to as anatta insight, a month or so ago, and it is still maturing.
It was as if one step further or deeper was performed, it was as if the Nondual experiences from before "expanded" even further and left "me" completely and utterly without the Self (anatma or anatta). Liberating as two hells. LOL

I can enter almost at will now into this state, usually via some koan or sutra (heart sutra for example).

Question, if I may:
when is this insight mature, when to go on? (ok, I know, it is a strange question to ask, but I would love to hear your experiences, please)
How and what did you do to go from Nondual to Anatta to Sunyata insights, please?

AEN, thank you. I appreciate your posts, they speak to me very intimately. Tnx.

Anatta insight:

I was reading the text on integral psychotherapy and transpersonal identity development, and while reading the notions about the Nondual, it happened.
Those notions are worth mentioning, I think:
in Kashmir Shivaism, they outline ancient guidelines about obstacles to ultimate reality, so called malas (impurities):
- anava mala (belief that any given person occupies particular space, i.e. I am here not there, and certainly not everywhere)
- mayiya mala (belief that there are other objects outside of us, i.e. Jane is out there, not here where I am located)
Basically that is the root perception of false ego, the illusory center of reference.

By that time, Nondual was already here (only seeing the seen, hearing the sound etc...), it seems the first two malas were recognized as false straight away.

It is important to note that I was at that point able to switch back to "I am" presence, perceiving the well known Omnipresence of my True self. For years I entered this state at will, hence falling back to the "I am" presence was happening, I guess.

It was different this time, however: I realized with the so called aha! moment, that the I am presence is exactly the same as the "sensory input" I was experiencing. The seen, sensed, cognized AS the "I am" presence - only that "I am" presence was not there anymore. I was however, able to switch, back and forth, so to speak. Maybe it is worth mentioning that the Nondual was/is (still is) more liberating and peaceful than "I am" presence insight.

What sealed the deal, so to speak LOL, was:
- karma mala - belief that a person must perform an action, do something to remedy any given situation, say "I need to meditate to get enlightened"
It happened few moments after I read that notion, and everything just became crystal clear, no switching back to "I am" presence, there was no one here, there, anywhere to switch to!! And I am not talking only about the little false ego, I am also talking about the ultimate "I am" presence! For years, I was happy to abide as a Witness, Omnipresent and liberated, free from mental/emotional/physical bullshit.

But now, the "I am" presence was gone!! Even the so called Unmanifested "I am" was nowhere to be found (the Causal level has two sub-levels, lower (I am presence, the Witness) and higher (No "I am", just the Unmanifested, latent absolute potential), according to Wilber).

It seems that after years of entering satori at will, I was allowed to move on.
Only there isn't anyone to give the permission, or anyone to be allowed to move on. No one is here, it never was, it can not exist, because events are unfolding by their own, on their own. Phenomena is free, separated from every other phenomena, not touching but liberating as they come and go.

I can enter into Nondual at will now, especially after the shared experience. Driving the car, eating, looking out the window - it seems that these situations are easy and do not require much mental effort on my part, so I can easily let go.
What I also notice now is that I can discern the Advaita texts from the Nondual ones.

To my saddness, I realized that my favorite master, Sri Ramana Maharshi, is not speaking about Anatta, or not even about Nondual (as far as I can see), He mentions that even in Sahaja Nirbikalpa Samadhi (the ultimate state, according to Him) there is "something" there which mediator is at One with. Well, He must be talking about something different, not about Anatta or Nondual.

Anatta I can enter almost at will now, but it usually just slips back to the Nondual insight, with slight resemblance of something here, traces or tendencies from years of "I am" presence samadhis, I guess.

"An Eternal Now:
What is your view about what consciousness is now? Does consciousness have any characteristics of being unchanging, independent or etc and if not what is it?"

Well, now I view consciousness as non-local, not centered in the "I am presence" anymore, there is no split between samadhi and everyday life, in a sense that there is no one to make that distinction. I am more at peace now, more at ease, laid back so to speak.

Yes, at the moment, I see the consciousness as something free, liberating in itself, "changing" by itself: events come and go by themselves, no one is in control, so to speak, no one to instigate coming and going, not even God.
And, I promise you, for me this notion ( there is no God, as a separate entity or Absolute Self etc... )is rather dramatic change.

I am still not clear why events or phenomena are perceived as coming and going. What is condition ("yuan" as per Thusness) for events to occur? What is yuan?

"An Eternal Now:

How stable is your non dual experiencing now? Also I presume you have read Thusness's articles in our blog? One more thing: any changes in your sleep and dream?"

I have read most of Thusness' articles at your blog, yes. But I don't get everything yet, especially about the Sunyata insights.

How stable is my Nondual experiencing now? I don't know what is the criteria for stability, but I can enter Nondual at will, it is easiest to do, as there is no effort needed (apart from letting go) or something gained. When everything is let go of, the Nondual remains, not as a state or level, but as base reality. No need to do anything, as it already and alone is.
All of this, it is not spontaneous yet, though.

It is interesting you should mention sleep (dreamless one, I suppose) and dreams.

Lucid dreaming is an important part of my sadhana, I have been dreaming lucidly (on and off) for years.
The change I am noticing for a few years is that all three states (waking, dreams and dreamless sleep) are happening to Me, the base Reality, they are happening in Me, so to speak (actually, everything else, everything, is happening in Me, as a part of my Being). Even in dreaming I am aware of this, not as in classic lucid dreaming sense but more profound. It is like common denominator, silver lining in all three states, so to speak.
Does that make any sense, pls?

But now even this has changed as I know beyond the shadow of the doubt that there is no Me as the base reality.
It is a process, I think, so I look forward to experiencing new insights.

Thank you.



Soh Wei Yu I replied:

Good insights there Seraphis! You seem able to actualize the living experience of anatta without dwelling much into view. Your insights unfold from recognizing "the same taste" of I AM in all six entries and exits, into seeing that the very idea of abiding is a hindrance, to the doubtless realization that there never was a "This I" to abide in, and whatever arises is already free and liberating.

There are similarities with my experience but somewhat different triggers. I had an intense non-dual experience (Aug '10) when dancing at a nightclub that totally dissolved the Witness for a few days (after which I was switching between I AM and non-dual for a period of time due to previous practice tendencies like you until clearer insights), before this event non-dual glimpses was occassional, few, short and intermittent but after this event I was able to 'switch' into non-dual mode with relative ease as my insight into Awareness/Existence was refined from "I AM pure Existence" to "Existence is the very stuff of whatever arises". Soon I was also contemplating and challenging the sense of subject-object, inside-outside, border and boundaries of awareness and manifestation, etc until it was all seen as seamless awareness (one mind). Then non-dual was pretty clear to me. Later during October 2010 I wrote two articles in reference to my insights, first on One Taste and then it was contemplating on the Bahiya Sutta about a week later that triggered the clear insight into anatta/"No I": and .

For now, you should not be distracted with stages of insights (sunyata or whatever) but be thorough and leave no trace of "I" for the willingness to let go completely (the I) has arisen. Check this out if you haven't:

Next step is not to stagnate in no-self and engage wholly and completely into actions and activities then "satori" has no entry or exit; when the thunder claps, the whole of "satori" is actualized!

Soh Wei Yu He wrote an article comparing Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Sahaja Samadhi, Nirodha Samapatti, Anatta and Total Exertion, quite well written:
GG Right now, Soh, i would put it this way:

I am not in any perceived. There is no perceiver. All of the perceived is no other than me. Sounds paradoxal, I know. Its like the dream of appearances is never other than the dreamer, but there is no dreamer either.



Soh Wei Yu But it's not a collapsing into a single oneness yes?

"In many of your recent posts after the sudden realization of anatta from contemplating on Bahiya Sutta, you are still very much focused on the vivid non-dual presence. Now the everything feels ‘Me’ sort of sensation becomes a daily matter and the bliss of losing oneself completely into scenery, sound, taste is wonderful. This is different from everything collapsing into a “Single Oneness” sort of experience but a disperse out into the multiplicity of whatever arises. Everything feels closer than ‘me’ due to gaplessness. ...."
GG Yes. If I look at it, it is a single oneness. I have to mature this insight. Will read the above now.
GG Soh. But you seem to be suggesting that such "sense of single oneness" is still a kind of holding into a view. Is that so? Perhaps the view of appearances being subsumed into a "dream"?

Soh Wei Yu Hi GG yes, the anatta insight should lead to this:


Therefore to see that all dusts are primordially pure from before beginning is the whole purpose of maturing the insight of anatta. The following text succinctly expresses this insight:

...According to Dogen, this “oceanic-body” does not contain the myriad forms, nor is it made up of myriad forms – it is the myriad forms themselves. The same instruction is provided at the beginning of Shobogenzo, Gabyo (pictured rice-cakes) where, he asserts that, “as all Buddhas are enlightenment” (sho, or honsho), so too, “all dharmas are enlightenment” which he says does not mean they are simply “one” nature or mind.

Anything falling short of this realization cannot be said to be Buddhist's enlightenment and it is also what your Taiwanese teacher Chen wanted you to be clear when he spoke of the "equality of dharma" as having an initial glimpse of anatta will not result in practitioners seeing that phenomena are themselves primoridally pure."

Soh Wei Yu Mahamudra has a similar teaching as Dogen on 'multiplicity':

"The medium One Taste is when this tarnish has dissolved:
the conviction of savoring and clinging to multiplicity
as being one taste. You have actualized the resplendent
indivisibility of perceptions and mind in which the
perceived is not held as being outside and mind is not held
as being inside.

The greater One Taste is when you realize multiplicity
as being of one taste and you experience one taste as being
multiplicity. Thus, everything subsides into the original
state of equality."

"You have perfected the strength of One Taste if whatever
you encounter is experienced as the expression of this
original state of equality. You have not perfected its
strength if one taste isn't experienced as multiplicity because
of retaining the bind of a remedy."



GG Those diagrams up there are very illuminating.

Dogen's text makes all the sense. If one holds into a view of oneness, one will probably be caught by surprise by multiplicity (or one aspect of it) sooner of later.


André A. Pais
André A. Pais GG what's the referent of the word "me" when you say it's all me?

If it is a single oneness, how can stuff disappear without collapsing the "whole"?
· Reply · 11h
GG I cant refer to "it". Its meaning is close to "tasting the temperature of the water". Probably similar to "one taste".

Good point. Also stuff appear without altering the whole, although one could say that empty forms dont alter anything. But that is too intellectual.
· Reply · 8h
GG Strictly speaking any "me" should inherently bring with it some "no-me", so it just doesnt make sense indeed. How could such no-me coexist with a "all-is-me"?
· Reply · 8h · Edited
GG But now I can counter argument my own statement and say that arisings and desapearings in a dream does not alter the wholeness of the dream. Likewise, with empty forms and what is. What will you say to that?
· Reply · 7h · Edited
André A. Pais
André A. Pais GG the wholeness of the dream is likewise imputed. There is no single, whole or unified dreaming mind, but mere scattered luminous appearances, causally interdependent, but "free-flowing".
· Reply · 12m
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu There is no "one weather" or even a "weather" besides the everchanging patterns, which does function seamlessly in interdependence and dynamic and boundless activity/functioning (not as one 'substance' -- there is no unchanging or independent substantial essence).

Just like there is no "one whole Chariot" -- "Chariot" is merely designated in dependence on parts, conditions/conditionality, function, designating consciousness.

Therefore "one mind" collapses (or rather is simply 'seen through') into multiplicity in a similar fashion as the 'weather' and 'chariot' analogy - into the five aggregates, the eighteen elements. This is the insight that must arise.

Zen priest Alex Weith:

"...The next step that I found very practical is to push the process of deconstruction a step further, realizing that all that is experienced is one of the six consciousness. In other words, there is neither a super Awareness beyond phenomena, not solid material objects, but only six streams of sensory experiences. The seen, the heard, the sensed, the tasted, the smelled and the cognized (including thoughts, emotions, and subtle thougths like absorbtion states, jhanas)..."
· Reply · 1m · Edited
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu And this is also why a universal consciousness does not exist.

Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm: "Buddhism is all its forms is strictly nominalist, and rejects all universals (samanya-artha) as being unreal abstractions."
· Reply · 4m
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases.

Vajira Sutta: Vajira
· Reply · Remove Preview · 1m
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu 
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the All. Listen, attend carefully to it and I will speak.

“Now what, Bhikkhus, is the All? It is just the eye and visible objects, the ear and sounds, the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and tangible objects, the mind and objects of mind. This, Bhikkhus, is called the All.

“Now whoever should speak thus: ’Setting aside this All I will proclaim another All,’ it would be mere talk on his part and on being questioned he would be unable to proceed and in addition, vexation will befall him. For what reason? It would not be within his scope, Bhikkhus.

- Buddha
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· Reply · 8m

Soh Wei Yu It is the seamless, boundless, interdependence of dharmas that some Zen masters talk about 'one body' but not as an unchanging substance independent of conditionality.

Zen Master Bernie Glassman:

"In the same way, we usually see the body as a limited, bound thing, yet we know that it has many features -- hands, toes, numerous hairs and pores (all different), skin, bones, blood, guts, an assortment of organs, many feet of intestines. But they're all just one body with many, many features and characteristics. Hit one part and the whole feels it; the entire body is affected. Eat some food and what part is not affected? Breathe, what part is not affected?"

Thusness, 2012:

"In primordial suchness, mind-body-universe is one and act as one flow but not one substance"

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4 Responses
  1. Wanderer Says:

    So with the realization of no self,and theres simply phenomenas rolling on by itself,its all just a game Consciousness playing with itself(since theres no self ,its all illusion ,a maya)? She is bored without manifestation,so decided to forget Herself ,by forgeting ,whole universes came into being ,by coming into being,duality is born ...

    Im afraid this conclusion (that theres only Consciousness)is inevitable,given the fact that 'anatta is a seal(has always been so),not stage'. Anatta has always been so,means all along theres only Consciousness,no individual self.

  2. Wanderer Says:

    It seems 'anatta is a seal' , 'presence is the transience/manifestation' is really no different from 'theres only Consciousness', in the sense that phenomena is just a maya when consciousness in a particular body(Soh or anybody else...)hasnt realized itself,but when realization happens(to that particular 'individual' ), maya is seen through,division ends,all along theres only Consciousness playing itself within manifestation...

    Anatta is a seal, is only from a particular individuals point of view,the rest of 6+ billions on the planet,who havent experiencing any realization,maya is still there....

    So the ending of maya is simply 'individual specific' ,unless all being had attain realization

  3. Wanderer Says:

    I think i just making some irrelevant comments again,theoretical and not related to actual practice...apologies

  4. Soh Says:

    In Thusness stage 6 you will not perceive everything as being the play of the ultimate controller or shiva, but rather the play of conditionality or total exertion.


    [23:46] <^john^> Buddhism is nothing but replacing the 'Self' in Hinduism with Condition Arising.
    [23:46] <^john^> Keep the clarity, the presence, the luminosity and eliminate The ultimate 'Self', the controller, the supreme.
    [23:46] <^john^> Still u must taste, sense, eat, hear and see Pure Awareness in every authentication.
    [23:46] <^john^> And every authentication is Bliss.


    (11:07 PM) John: the part of stage 5 must be led forward by DO (dependent origination) otherwise one will sink back to a source
    (11:08 PM) John: very often, this is the case
    (11:08 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:09 PM) John: so don't underestimate the simple sentence of "manifestation is the source"
    (11:09 PM) AEN: ok
    (11:09 PM) John: it is the key to non-duality then lead to DO.
    (11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:09 PM) John: it must be DO that lead one out of the source.
    (11:09 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:10 PM) John: then all broken pieces will slowly fall into place
    (11:10 PM) John: otherwise we will have all those funny theories like reality is lila
    (11:10 PM) John: a game plot of God.
    (11:10 PM) AEN: oic
    (11:10 PM) John: :)
    (11:11 PM) John: that is because causes and conditions is not understood
    (11:11 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:11 PM) John: and how awareness becomes causes and conditions
    (11:11 PM) AEN: oic
    (11:12 PM) John: when luminosity-emptiness is experienced in its total state, then it is dharmakaya
    (11:12 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:12 PM) John: by experiencing the luminosity aspect itself is not enough