Awakening to Reality

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Mind

It is referring to the I AM

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How do you distinguish an experience like this from a deep Jhana? Seems like the 5th or 6th Jhana could easily be mistaken for this.

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Realization is marked by certainty.

See first point of https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../realization-and...

1. On Experience and Realization

Comments by Soh: Also see related article - I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)

One of the direct and immediate response I get after reading the articles by Rob Burbea and Rupert is that they missed one very and most important point when talking about the Eternal Witness Experience -- The Realization. They focus too much on the experience but overlook the realization. Honestly I do not like to make this distinction as I see realization also as a form of experience. However in this particular case, it seems appropriate as it could better illustrate what I am trying to convey. It also relates to the few occasions where you described to me your space-like experiences of Awareness and asked whether they correspond to the phase one insight of Eternal Witness. While your experiences are there, I told you ‘not exactly’ even though you told me you clearly experienced a pure sense of presence.

So what is lacking? You do not lack the experience, you lack the realization. You may have the blissful sensation or feeling of vast and open spaciousness; you may experience a non-conceptual and objectless state; you may experience the mirror like clarity but all these experiences are not Realization. There is no ‘eureka’, no ‘aha’, no moment of immediate and intuitive illumination that you understood something undeniable and unshakable -- a conviction so powerful that no one, not even Buddha can sway you from this realization because the practitioner so clearly sees the truth of it. It is the direct and unshakable insight of ‘You’. This is the realization that a practitioner must have in order to realize the Zen satori. You will understand clearly why it is so difficult for those practitioners to forgo this ‘I AMness’ and accept the doctrine of anatta. Actually there is no forgoing of this ‘Witness’, it is rather a deepening of insight to include the non-dual, groundlessness and interconnectedness of our luminous nature. Like what Rob said, "keep the experience but refine the views".

Lastly this realization is not an end by itself, it is the beginning. If we are truthful and not over exaggerate and get carried away by this initial glimpse, we will realize that we do not gain liberation from this realization; contrary we suffer more after this realization. However it is a powerful condition that motivates a practitioner to embark on a spiritual journey in search of true freedom.

(Comments by Soh: the reason John Tan/Thusness said ‘we suffer more after this [I AM] realization’ is due to his energy imbalances triggered after I AM. However, the period after I AM realization was blissful and mostly problem-free for me, as I avoided pitfalls or incorrect practice by practicing according to John’s pointers and guidance, which I have written in this chapter. See chapter on Tips on Energy Imbalances in Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind for more details.).

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Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives

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Soh Wei Yu I haven't reached this certainty myself, so I remain open to it. But I also think a little sketicism is healthy... Ingram, for example, points out that many practitioners mistake the later Jhanas for enlightenment due to their profundity (and "certainty" is very vulnerable to self-deception). Not saying that is what is happening here, but I think it's worth pointing out, no?

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https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../no-awareness...

There is a distinction between experience and realization. Realization is a discovery about the essence and nature of consciousness. I AM is a discovery about the clear luminous essence but not the empty nature of consciousness.

It is a correct realization but must be refined.

Jhana is an experience that may not necessarily confer realization.

Excerpts:

Session Start: Saturday, 27 March, 2010

(9:54 PM) Thusness: Not bad for self-enquiry

(9:55 PM) AEN: icic..

btw what do u think lucky and chandrakirti is trying to convey

(9:56 PM) Thusness: those quotes weren't really well translated in my opinion.

(9:57 PM) Thusness: what needs be understood is 'No I' is not to deny Witnessing consciousness.

(9:58 PM) Thusness: and 'No Phenomena' is not to deny Phenomena

(9:59 PM) Thusness: It is just for the purpose of 'de-constructing' the mental constructs.

(10:00 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:01 PM) Thusness: when u hear sound, u cannot deny it...can u?

(10:01 PM) AEN: ya

(10:01 PM) Thusness: so what r u denying?

(10:02 PM) Thusness: when u experience the Witness as u described in ur thread 'certainty of being', how can u deny this realization?

(10:03 PM) Thusness: so what is does 'no I' and 'no phenomena' mean?

(10:03 PM) AEN: like u said its only mental constructs that are false... but consciousness cant be denied ?

(10:03 PM) Thusness: no...i am not saying that

Buddha never deny the aggregates

(10:04 PM) Thusness: just the selfhood

(10:04 PM) Thusness: the problem is what is meant by 'non-inherent', empty nature, of phenomena and 'I'

2010:

(11:15 PM) Thusness: but understanding it wrongly is another matter

can u deny Witnessing?

(11:16 PM) Thusness: can u deny that certainty of being?

(11:16 PM) AEN: no

(11:16 PM) Thusness: then there is nothing wrong with it

how could u deny ur very own existence?

(11:17 PM) Thusness: how could u deny existence at all

(11:17 PM) Thusness: there is nothing wrong experiencing directly without intermediary the pure sense of existence

(11:18 PM) Thusness: after this direct experience, u should refine ur understanding, ur view, ur insights

(11:19 PM) Thusness: not after the experience, deviate from the right view, re-enforce ur wrong view

(11:19 PM) Thusness: u do not deny the witness, u refine ur insight of it

what is meant by non-dual

(11:19 PM) Thusness: what is meant by non-conceptual

what is being spontaneous

what is the 'impersonality' aspect

(11:20 PM) Thusness: what is luminosity.

(11:20 PM) Thusness: u never experience anything unchanging

(11:21 PM) Thusness: in later phase, when u experience non-dual, there is still this tendency to focus on a background... and that will prevent ur progress into the direct insight into the TATA as described in the tata article.

(11:22 PM) Thusness: and there are still different degree of intensity even u realized to that level.

(11:23 PM) AEN: non dual?

(11:23 PM) Thusness: tada (an article) is more than non-dual...it is phase 5-7

(11:24 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:24 PM) Thusness: it is all about the integration of the insight of anatta and emptiness

(11:25 PM) Thusness: vividness into transience, feeling what i called 'the texture and fabric' of Awareness as forms is very important

then come emptiness

(11:26 PM) Thusness: the integration of luminosity and emptiness

(10:45 PM) Thusness: do not deny that Witnessing but refine the view, that is very important

(10:46 PM) Thusness: so far, u have correctly emphasized the importance of witnessing

(10:46 PM) Thusness: unlike in the past, u gave ppl the impression that u r denying this witnessing presence

(10:46 PM) Thusness: u merely deny the personification, reification and objectification

(10:47 PM) Thusness: so that u can progress further and realize our empty nature.

but don't always post what i told u in msn

(10:48 PM) Thusness: in no time, i will become sort of cult leader

(10:48 PM) AEN: oic.. lol

(10:49 PM) Thusness: anatta is no ordinary insight. When we can reach the level of thorough transparency, u will realize the benefits

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No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness

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(10:50 PM) Thusness: non-conceptuality, clarity, luminosity, transparency, openness, spaciousness, thoughtlessness, non-locality...all these descriptions become quite meaningless.

2009:

(7:39 PM) Thusness: it is always witnessing...don't get it wrong

just whether one understand its emptiness nature or not.

(7:39 PM) Thusness: there is always luminosity

since when there is no witnessing?

(7:39 PM) Thusness: it is just luminosity and emptiness nature

not luminosity alone

(9:59 PM) Thusness: there is always this witnessing...it is the divided sense that u have to get rid

(9:59 PM) Thusness: that is why i never deny the witness experience and realization, just the right understanding

2008:

(2:58 PM) Thusness: There is no problem being the witness, the problem is only wrong understanding of what witness is.

(2:58 PM) Thusness: That is seeing duality in Witnessing.

(2:58 PM) Thusness: or seeing 'Self' and other, subject-object division. That is the problem.

(2:59 PM) Thusness: U can call it Witnessing or Awareness, there must be no sense of self.

(11:21 PM) Thusness: yes witnessing

not witness

(11:22 PM) Thusness: in witnessing, it is always non-dual

(11:22 PM) Thusness: when in witness, it is always a witness and object being witness

when there is an observer, there is no such thing as no observed

(11:23 PM) Thusness: when u realised that there is only witnessing, there is no observer and observed

it is always non-dual

(11:24 PM) Thusness: that is why when genpo something said there is no witness only witnessing, yet taught the staying back and observed

(11:24 PM) Thusness: i commented the path deviates from the view

(11:25 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:25 PM) Thusness: when u teach experience the witness, u teach that

that is not about no subject-object split

u r teaching one to experience that witness

(11:26 PM) Thusness: first stage of insight of the "I AM"

2008:

(2:52 PM) Thusness: r u denying the "I AMness" experience?

(2:54 PM) AEN: u mean in the post?

(2:54 PM) AEN: no

(2:54 PM) AEN: its more like the nature of 'i am' rite

(2:54 PM) Thusness: what is being denied?

(2:54 PM) AEN: the dualistic understanding?

(2:55 PM) Thusness: yes it is the wrong understanding of that experience. Just like 'redness' of a flower.

(2:55 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:55 PM) Thusness: Vivid and seems real and belongs to the flower. It only appears so, it is not so.

(2:57 PM) Thusness: When we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there is thoughts, no thinker. There is sound, no hearer and there is rebirth, but no permanent soul being reborn.

(2:58 PM) Thusness: It is puzzling because of our deeply held view of seeing things inherently where dualism is a subset of this 'inherent' seeing.

(2:59 PM) Thusness: So what is the problem?

(2:59 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:59 PM) AEN: the deeply held views?

(2:59 PM) Thusness: yeah

(2:59 PM) Thusness: what is the problem?

(3:01 PM) AEN: back

(3:02 PM) Thusness: The problem is the root cause of suffering lies in this deeply held view. We search and are attached because these views. This is the relationship between 'view' and 'consciousness'. There is no escape. With inherent view, there is always 'I' and 'Mine'. There is always 'belongs' like the 'redness' belongs to the flower.

(3:02 PM) Thusness: Therefore despite all transcendental experiences, there is no liberation without right understanding.

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Absolute Certainty

"First, acknowledging it is called recognizing one's nature. Next, we must be decisive about what is recognized. This is more complicated, because who really decides? Is it conceptual mind that settles it? Or is it rigpa itself that decides? or is it your teacher who makes up your mind - "The guru said so, so it must be true"? Or will modern technology validate it for you? Could you go to the Rigpa Lab and check your heart and brain with instruments to decide if your rigpa is fine and fit, if your nonduality is in good shape?

How do you resolve this point? It may be tough to have to immediately endorse your own experience, but we can decide upon it if we feel even 60 percent confident that it's actually rigpa. As the basis for verifying, we use our teacher's words, the words of an authentic scripture, and our own experience. When our state of experiencing rigpa really is rigpa, there is within that an automatic feeling of certainty. To arrive at that certainty you need to give some time to the process, and you also need to have passion. There is a point at which the certainty is built-in, automatic certainty. Once we get to this natural, unshakable certainty, we feel so sure that even if the Buddha himself came before us and said, "Hey, you're wrong, it's not rigpa!" we would thank him for coming, but it would not change our certainty at all. At a certain point the qualities of empty essence, cognizant nature, and unconfined capacity become so utterly obvious that we really know. At this point, we have gained the certainty that whatever occurs in our minds can be freed by itself."

- Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Fearless Simplicity: The Dzogchen Way of Living Freely in a Complex World

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Also, Daniel Ingram seem to relate I AM as third path related. Those emphasis about ground of being he mentioned about third path sounds like it may be referring to I AM.

Frank Yang also discovered I AM and then later one mind during that he calls third path. Anatta (thusness stage 5) is what Frank and Daniel calls fourth path.

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Ajahn maha boowa also mapped the whole I AM phase with anagami territory. What he calls arahant however is not so much stage 5 anatta but stage 4 nondual.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20

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But I have a different view of the four paths mapping based on suttas.

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../insight-buddhism...

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[insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism

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"The citta stays suspended in a serene stillness for a long time before withdrawing to normal consciousness."

How is citta different from normal consciousness?

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Ordinary consciousness is directed outward and sensory phenomena.

I AM realization is when light is turned around to discover the Source. It is the realization of Source or Mind.

Ajahn Brahmavamso:

“When the Body Disappears.

Remember "con men," "con women" as well. These con men can sell you anything! There's one living in your mind right now, and you believe every word he says! His name is Thinking. When you let go of that inner talk and get silent, you get happy. Then when you let go of the movement of the mind and stay with the breath, you experience even more delight. Then when you let go of the body ,all these five senses disappear and you're really blissing out. This is original Buddhism. Sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch completely vanish. This is like being in a sensory deprivation chamber but much better. But it's not just silence, you just don't hear anything. It's not just blackness, you just don't see anything. It's not just a feeling of comfort in the body, there is no body at all.

When the body disappears that really starts to feel great. You know of all those people who have out of the body experiences? When the body dies, every person has that experience, they float out of the body. And one of the things they always say is it's so peaceful, so beautiful, so blissful. It's the same in meditation when the body disappears, it's so peaceful, so beautiful, so blissful when you are free from this body. What's left? Here there's no sight, sound, smell, taste, touch. This is what the Buddha called the mind in deep meditation. When the body disappears what is left is the mind.

I gave a simile to a monk the other night. Imagine an Emperor who is wearing a long pair of trousers and a big tunic. He's got shoes on his feet, a scarf around the bottom half of his head and a hat on the top half of his head. You can't see him at all because he's completely covered in five garments. It's the same with the mind. It's completely covered with sight, sound, smell, taste and touch. So people don't know it. They just know the garments. When they see the Emperor, they just see the robes and the garments. They don't know who lives inside them. And so it is no wonder they're confused about what is life, what is mind, who is this inside of here, where did I come from? Why? What am I supposed to be doing with this life? When the five senses disappear, it's like unclothing the Emperor and seeing what is actually in here, what's actually running the show, who's listening to these words, who's seeing, who's feeling life, who this is. When the five senses disappear, you're coming close to the answer to those questions.

What you're seeing in such deep meditation is that which we call "mind," (in Pali it's called Citta). The Buddha used this beautiful simile. When there is a full moon on a cloudy night, even though it's a full moon, you can hardly see it. Sometimes when the clouds are thin, you can see this hazy shape shining though. You know there is something there. This is like the meditation just before you've entered into these profound states. You know there is something there, but you can't quite make it out. There's still some "clothes" left. You're still thinking and doing, feeling the body or hearing sounds. But there does come a time, and this is the Buddha's simile, when the moon is released from the clouds and there in the clear night sky you can see the beautiful full disc of the moon shining brilliantly, and you know that's the moon. The moon is there; the moon is real, and it's not just some sort of side effect of the clouds. This is what happens in meditation when you see the mind. You see clearly that the mind is not some side effect of the brain. You see the mind, and you know the mind. The Buddha said that the mind released is beautiful, is brilliant, is radiant. So not only are these blissful experiences, they're meaningful experiences as well.

How many people may have heard about rebirth but still don't really believe it? How can rebirth happen? Certainly the body doesn't get reborn. That's why when people ask me where do you go when you die, "one of two places" I say "Fremantle or Karrakatta" that's where the body goes! [3] But is that where the mind goes? Sometimes people are so stupid in this world, they think the body is all there is, that there is no mind. So when you get cremated or buried that's it, that's done with, all has ended. The only way you can argue with this view is by developing the meditation that the Buddha achieved under the Bodhi tree. Then you can see the mind for yourself in clear awareness - not in some hypnotic trance, not in dullness - but in the clear awareness. This is knowing the mind

Knowing the Mind.

When you know that mind, when you see it for yourself, one of the results will be an insight that the mind is independent of this body. Independence means that when this body breaks up and dies, when it's cremated or when it's buried, or however it's destroyed after death, it will not affect the mind. You know this because you see the nature of the mind. That mind which you see will transcend bodily death. The first thing which you will see for yourself, the insight which is as clear as the nose on your face, is that there is something more to life than this physical body that we take to be me. Secondly you can recognise that that mind, essentially, is no different than that process of consciousness which is in all beings. Whether it's human beings or animals or even insects, of any gender, age or race, you see that that which is in common to all life is this mind, this consciousness, the source of doing.

Once you see that, you have much more respect for your fellow beings. Not just respect for your own race, your own tribe or your own religion, not just for human beings, but for all beings. It's a wonderfully high-minded idea. "May all beings be happy and well and may we respect all nations, all peoples, even all beings." However this is how you achieve that! You truly get compassion only when we see that others are fundamentally just as ourselves. If you think that a cow is completely different from you, that cows don't think like human beings, then it's easy to eat one. But can you eat your grandmother? She's too much like you. Can you eat an ant? Maybe you'd kill an ant because you think that ants aren't like you. But if you look carefully at ants, they are no different. In a forest monastery living out in the bush, close to nature, one of the things you become so convinced of is that animals have emotions and , especially, feel pain. You begin to recognise the personality of the animals, of the Kookaburras,(Australian bird) of the mice, the ants, and the spiders. Each one of those spiders has a mind just like you have. Once you see that you can understand the Buddha's compassion for all beings. You can also understand how rebirth can occur between all species - not just human beings to human beings, but animals to humans, humans to animals. You can understand also how the mind is the source of all this.”

- Ajahn Brahmavamso, http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/.../Meditation%20The...”

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http://waynedhamma.blogspot.com/2007/02/original-face.html

“Right now, as you read this, you exist and you are aware that you exist. You are undoubtedly present and aware. Before the next thought arises, you are absolutely certain of the fact of your own being, your own awareness, your own presence. This awareness is what you are; it is what you always have been. All thoughts, perceptions, sensations and feelings appear within or upon that. This awareness does not move, change or shift at any time. It is always free and completely untouched. However, it is not a thing or an object that you can see or grasp. The mind, being simply thoughts arising in awareness, cannot grasp it or know it or even think about it. Yet, as Bob says, you cannot deny the fact of your own being. It is palpably obvious, and yet, from the time we were born, no one has pointed this out. Once it is pointed out it can be grasped or understood very quickly because it is just a matter of noticing, ‘Oh, that is what I am!’ It is a bright, luminous, empty, presence of awareness; it is absolutely radiant, yet without form; it is seemingly intangible, but the most solid fact in your existence; it is effortlessly here right now, forever untouched. Without taking a step, you have arrived; you are home. No practice can reveal this because practices are in time and in the mind. Practices aim at a result, but you (as presence-awareness) are here already, only you don’t recognize it till it is pointed out. Once seen, you can’t lose it, and you don’t have to practice to exist, to be. This is, in essence, what Bob pointed out to me in the first conversation I had with him.

Once I saw this, I felt very clear and free immediately. Later, some thoughts came up, some old personality patterns, some old definitions of who I thought myself to be. I seemed to lose the clear understanding of my nature as presence-awareness. The next day, I talked to Bob about it. He said, ‘Let’s have a look. Do you exist? Are you aware? What is illumining the thought that you have lost it?’ Then I realized that thoughts of suffering were only passing concepts being illumined by the ever-present awareness. I hadn’t lost anything at all. The awareness that we are is never obscured! Suffering seems real because we don’t have a clear understanding of our true nature. Instead, we believe the passing thoughts, such as ‘I am no good,’ ‘I am not there yet,’ ‘I am stuck’ or whatever the thought may be. Eventually we understand that we are not those thoughts. Once our real self is pointed out, the suffering loses its grip.

Bob pointed out that there is no person here at all. The person that we think we are is an imaginary concept. There are thoughts and feelings and perceptions, but they are not a problem. They just rise and fall like dust motes in the light of the presence-awareness that we are.

The closest that the mind can come to representing who we are is the thought ‘I am’. But that thought is not who we really are. Whether that thought is there or not, we still exist. We know the thought ‘I am’. That thought is the start of the false sense of an individual, a separate ‘I’. Because we didn’t know any better, the mind attached other labels to this ‘I’ thought, such as ‘I am good,’ ‘I am bad,’ ‘I have this problem,’ and so on. But those thoughts don’t have anything to do with us, because the very ‘I’ thought itself, the sense of separation, is not actually who we are. Once you see the falseness of the ‘I’ thought, that what we are is not an individual person at all, the identifications and ideas of a lifetime all collapse because they are all based on a false premise.” - John Wheeler, https://awakeningclaritynow.com/awakening-to-the-natural.../

Likewise, another practitioner by the name of Wayne has described this realization of I AMness:

“The Original Face

What is the Original Face? It is the face all of us have before our parents gave birth to us. Before we even have the 6 sense organs of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body & brain to perceive the 6 sense objects of form, sound, smell, taste, feeling & thought. Before we even know good & evil, happiness & suffering, samsara & nirvana. Simply the pure awareness untainted by all 6 senses - that is the real YOU. That is also me, that is also all sentient beings & all Buddhas.

This is the Dharma that the 6th Patriarch revealed to his pursuer Hui Ming on Da Yu mountain. By temporarily shutting down your 6 sense organs and blocking out the 6 sense objects, by abandoning duality, what is left at that instant is your true nature. Like the still lake without a single ripple, or like the clear blue sky without a single cloud; the original face is vast, limitless, formless & completely free. It is not dull nothingness like an unconscious person, but a living, unmoving awareness that pervades all things, yet remaining unaffected by all things. Besides this, there is no other esoteric teachings that the Buddha & the Patriarches can impart to us.

But alas, for all of us, after we have picked up a physical body in our mother's womb, we have totally forgotten our original face. We started to grasp on to our sense organs, believing that to be our Self, our Ego. This is where the ignorance without a beginning - Avijja takes over. When our sense organs contact the sense objects, we instinctively allow the objects to enslave the organs, such that craving & aversion develops without an end, engulfing the entire universe. From Avijja arises craving & aversion, & from craving & aversion arises endless suffering.

Thus realizing this, the Zen practitioner should, in a single thought understand his or her own mistake, & immediately detach oneself from one's senses & its objects from within. Throwing away all concepts, directly penetrate the veil of Avijja & recover your original face. This is the common hope of all Buddhas & Patriarches for all sentient beings. Let none of us disappoint them, sadhu.”

Someone asked, "I often hear people saying that more than a decade has passed between the I AM realization and the subsequent ones. It's very often between 10 and 20 years. Does that mean that there's a sort of maturation process happening very slowly after the first realization? I just wonder if I'm stuck or whether I will make progress"

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Awakening to the Natural State: Guest Teaching by John Wheeler – Awakening Clarity Now by Fred Davis

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