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André A. Pais
Reality is entirely mute.
Silent.
On its own, it's totally ineffable.
Intangible.
Silent.
On its own, it's totally ineffable.
Intangible.
Nothing is conveying
From "its own side"
Anything
- any data, any information.
It's all construed
Fabricated
Set up
From the side of the mind
Through conceptuality.
Mind too
As well as these supposed mute objects
Are fabricated conceptually.
Conceptuality too is conceptually woven.
Outside conceptuality
Nothing is truly established.
Nothing is truly actualized.
However, neither are things
Outside of conceptuality
Non-existent.
"Outside of conceptuality"
However,
Too is established through language.
It's not all in the mind.
Despite the fact that
It is the mind
That is the great housebuilder.
The weaver of universes.
Of Samsara.
Of Nirvana.
The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words.
When the mind falls silent
Reality falls freely
Into an unfathomable abyss.
Into groundlessness.
Into voidness.
As voidness.
From "its own side"
Anything
- any data, any information.
It's all construed
Fabricated
Set up
From the side of the mind
Through conceptuality.
Mind too
As well as these supposed mute objects
Are fabricated conceptually.
Conceptuality too is conceptually woven.
Outside conceptuality
Nothing is truly established.
Nothing is truly actualized.
However, neither are things
Outside of conceptuality
Non-existent.
"Outside of conceptuality"
However,
Too is established through language.
It's not all in the mind.
Despite the fact that
It is the mind
That is the great housebuilder.
The weaver of universes.
Of Samsara.
Of Nirvana.
The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words.
When the mind falls silent
Reality falls freely
Into an unfathomable abyss.
Into groundlessness.
Into voidness.
As voidness.
Comments
André A. Pais John Tan
The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words.
Words are luminosity too, yes. But their meanings have to be seen through, otherwise luminosity will seem and feel solid. Solidity, duality, substantially, suffering, etc., are all established through deludedly applied language.
The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words.
Words are luminosity too, yes. But their meanings have to be seen through, otherwise luminosity will seem and feel solid. Solidity, duality, substantially, suffering, etc., are all established through deludedly applied language.
John Tan I
would say regardless of whether the mind is silent, conceptual or
non-conceptual, things still appear solid, dual and substantial. The
wisdom that sees through essence and characteristics penetrates far
deeper than non-conceptuality. Ignorance is equally deep,
non-conceptuality is not sufficient to put ignorance to rest.
André A. Pais John Tan, again:
The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words.
;)
I totally agree with you. Mere non-conceptuality is not enough. Newborn babies and animals are not Buddhas. We are not Buddhas in deep sleep.
By "all this" I mean thorough analysis, which results, I believe, in a silence that is not mere non-conceptuality and which can include, in fact, thoughts and concepts.
The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words.
;) I totally agree with you. Mere non-conceptuality is not enough. Newborn babies and animals are not Buddhas. We are not Buddhas in deep sleep.
By "all this" I mean thorough analysis, which results, I believe, in a silence that is not mere non-conceptuality and which can include, in fact, thoughts and concepts.
John Tan André,
imo ultimate analysis that conventional things are empty is the
antedote for the conceptual mind to understand. The "taste" and
recognition of "essence and characteristics" and emptiness must b
brought to all levels, conceptual or non-conceptual, like how we
recognized our childhood friends even after not seeing them for decades.
Geovani Geo Andre.
"The abyss and voidness here is not a blank. It is, as you say,
luminosity. Undifferentiated - and thus without a ground - radiance."
When you say, "without a ground", what is it that is w/o the ground?
There is a subtlety here. Of course the ultimate Silence is groundless for there is nothing upstream of it. Otoh, "the mind that is the great housebuilder, the weaver of universes, of Samsara, of Nirvana" is grounded in that Silence. So when we say that "its all conceptually attributed" this "all" does have a ground, the Ultimate Silence.
When you say, "without a ground", what is it that is w/o the ground?
There is a subtlety here. Of course the ultimate Silence is groundless for there is nothing upstream of it. Otoh, "the mind that is the great housebuilder, the weaver of universes, of Samsara, of Nirvana" is grounded in that Silence. So when we say that "its all conceptually attributed" this "all" does have a ground, the Ultimate Silence.
John Tan There
never is/was any "ground" and if anything needs to be dropped to reach a
point of silence, then it is a state that has entry and exit.
Silence or movement, both r appearances. The mind oscillates between the two poles as a result of non-recognition. The nature of mind and phenomena is empty and non-arisen, they have never deviated from their nirvanic quiescence.
Silence or movement, both r appearances. The mind oscillates between the two poles as a result of non-recognition. The nature of mind and phenomena is empty and non-arisen, they have never deviated from their nirvanic quiescence.
Geovani Geo John Tan,
when you say, "silence or movement, both r appearances" you have
attributed a significance to such silence that made it differ from
nirvanic quiescencent silence that has no points of entry and exit. You
are now speaking of the apparent manifested silence opposite to manifested movement.
Of course there is no ground when all there is is the ground, just as there is no silence that is not an appearance when all there is is such silence, which is the silence the OP seems to be referring too.
So, you have changed the nomenclature.
Of course there is no ground when all there is is the ground, just as there is no silence that is not an appearance when all there is is such silence, which is the silence the OP seems to be referring too.
So, you have changed the nomenclature.
André A. Pais Geovani Geo
>> When you say, "without a ground", what is it that is w/o the ground?
Reality is without a ground. What else could be without a ground?
>> Of course the ultimate Silence is groundless for there is nothing upstream of it.
That's the definition of ground (as source): that nothing is upstream of it. I don't agree with that. If nothing is upstream, no condition supports it. If the source is causeless, it is independent of everything else. It is useless then.
>> this "all" does have a ground, the Ultimate Silence.
I don't see any ultimate anywhere. In advaita, awareness (the Self) is ultimate. For me, that suffers from the same problem as the causeless source. Ultimate means independent. Independence destroys the functionality of interdependence. Thus it is said that independent or inherent existence is "an impossible mode / type of existence".
>> When you say, "without a ground", what is it that is w/o the ground?
Reality is without a ground. What else could be without a ground?
>> Of course the ultimate Silence is groundless for there is nothing upstream of it.
That's the definition of ground (as source): that nothing is upstream of it. I don't agree with that. If nothing is upstream, no condition supports it. If the source is causeless, it is independent of everything else. It is useless then.
>> this "all" does have a ground, the Ultimate Silence.
I don't see any ultimate anywhere. In advaita, awareness (the Self) is ultimate. For me, that suffers from the same problem as the causeless source. Ultimate means independent. Independence destroys the functionality of interdependence. Thus it is said that independent or inherent existence is "an impossible mode / type of existence".
