regarding 'process based understanding', some conversations i had with thusness before i realised anatta : 

Session Start: Saturday, 24 July, 2010

(2:14 PM) Thusness: actual freedom doesn't seem welcomed in kenneth's forum

(2:15 PM) AEN: yeah... he closed the actual freedom thread

(2:15 PM) Thusness: ahaha..

(2:15 PM) AEN: they dowan the place to overrun by AF like DhO

and kenneth doesnt really like AF i think

(2:15 PM) Thusness: yeah

(2:17 PM) Thusness: well those actually free ppl should go through life first before over-claiming anything.

(2:17 PM) Thusness: at the age of early twenties, it is still too early to make such comments.

(2:17 PM) AEN: oic..

but richard is v old leh

(2:18 PM) AEN: i think 50s or 60 years old liao

(2:18 PM) Thusness: that is why i do not consider him a wise teacher.

(2:18 PM) AEN: oic.. u think he over claimed?

(2:19 PM) Thusness: of course

(2:19 PM) AEN: ic..

(2:20 PM) Thusness: let alone declaring ppl actually free at such an early age.

(2:20 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:22 PM) Thusness: go through life and experience the many faces of Self in the form of attachments and slowly realize the gray-scale of no-self

now is still too early to talk about it.

(2:23 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:25 PM) Thusness: ur comment for maximo is not really appropriate but the quotes are. 🙂

(2:25 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:25 PM) AEN: how come not appropriate 😛

(2:25 PM) Thusness: unclear

(2:26 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:28 PM) Thusness: and u kept categorizing ppl experience and realization according to my phases of insight

(2:30 PM) Thusness: saying that they are just at which level and so forth...this is quite dis-respectful.  It will cause followers to retaliate.

(2:30 PM) Thusness: So u can't blame Craig N.

(2:30 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:34 PM) Thusness: Some of AF articles are quite good.

And the Realization tallies the experience described.

(2:35 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:35 PM) Thusness: it is also not easy to have that sort of clarity.

many cannot differentiate the difference between non-dual and anatta

(2:38 PM) Thusness: the only point lacking in AF is the realization of 'process'-based understanding

(2:40 PM) AEN: what do u mean by process based understanding

(2:41 PM) Thusness: understanding reality as a flow

not entity

(2:45 PM) AEN: oic.. but AF doesnt understand reality as an entity right

(2:45 PM) Thusness: yes but there is a difference

(2:46 PM) Thusness: no-subject is directly understood as this flow...

(2:46 PM) Thusness: which is quite clear in joan's article.

and in stainlessness and tata articles.

(2:47 PM) Thusness: as well as steven hagen

(2:47 PM) Thusness: means there is clarity in expression about this.

(2:49 PM) Thusness: Because in actual experience, it becomes very clear. If a practitioner were to explore further, it will not be difficult for him to realize the impact of 'view' on experience.

(2:50 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:55 PM) AEN: btw is this about the flow: "...Apperceptiveness is observing the moving flow of experience and enjoying things as they are changing ... in full appreciation of being here and participating in this happenstance. Apperceptiveness is seeing the birth, growth, and maturation of all phenomena ... and it is seeing all phenomena age, decay and die. Apperceptiveness is its own attentiveness moment by moment, continuously ... one is the experiencing of the doing of this moment of being alive. Apperceptiveness stops one from adding anything to perception, or subtracting something from it: one does not enhance anything for one does not emphasise anything. One is free to observe exactly what is here   now   without distortion..."

"...By living together in peace and harmony, equity and freedom, we have proved that, with pure intent, this is possible for anyone on the planet. Life, after all, was meant to be easy, friendly, comfortable, peaceful, harmonious, ever-changing, fresh each moment, direct, obvious, with the senses allowing intimate and total involvement in this moment of being alive. But then again we all have sometimes suspected this and even had tantalizing glimpses of this perfection. It is the destiny we seek..."

(2:57 PM) Thusness: yes but what is the insight about?

(2:59 PM) Thusness: when there is no-subject and experience is a moving flow and has always been so, what does that mean? what is the relationship between in/out, here/there, now/then... awareness/thoughts

(2:59 PM) Thusness: what does the insight of anatta really tell us?

(3:00 PM) AEN: hmm... its telling us that there is only a flow of sensations with nothing inherent anywhere?

(3:02 PM) Thusness: there is non-conceptual thought then conceptual thought, then non-conceptual thought...... there is no Awareness

(3:02 PM) Thusness: relate this to the quotes u provided in ur comment

(3:08 PM) AEN: hmm.. so when awareness is the flow, both conceptual thought and non conceptual thought have the same essence and nature... there is no other inherent entity called non conceptual awareness, its just a flow of conceptual and non conceptual thoughts and the flow itself is awareness?

(3:08 PM) Thusness: no

(3:09 PM) Thusness: there is no the flow itself is awareness as in true existence

just mere convention

(3:09 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:10 PM) AEN: so the insight is in seeing how nothing is inherent and everything we say like in/out, awareness/thoughts etc are mere conventions?

but in reality theres only a flow

(3:10 PM) Thusness: no

(3:11 PM) Thusness: it tells us why a reality that is always so can become entity base...

(3:11 PM) Thusness: and how it relates to liberation

(3:12 PM) AEN: oic...

(3:46 PM) AEN: it tells us why a reality that is always so can become entity base... - u mean by seeing everything as impermanence, then u realise how u have been solidifying them through grasping them as fixed entities?

-----

Session Start: Saturday, 24 July, 2010

(11:28 PM) Thusness: AF sees the universe as this flesh and bone as a realization of one's destiny.  This is important.

(11:28 PM) AEN: destiny?

oic

thats like anatta right

(11:30 PM) Thusness: it is very difficult to explain to u now unless it becomes an effortless experience for u.

(11:31 PM) Thusness: universe as this body is not exactly right but for now it helps ur understanding of impersonality and the I AM phase.

(11:32 PM) Thusness: if u refine ur non-dual experience in terms of luminosity with all these insights, then u will understand anatta better.

(11:33 PM) AEN: oic..

----

23 august:

(10:47 PM) Thusness: u have to practice until the background is completely gone then fully into luminosity

feeling with entire being without the sense of self completely

(10:48 PM) Thusness: it has to do with fearlessness

as i have to told u many times

(10:49 PM) Thusness: now just focus on realization

(10:49 PM) AEN: oic..

how to focus on realization

(10:49 PM) Thusness: there are few questions u have to ask

(10:50 PM) Thusness: i think it will update the article to include the 'how' to focus on realization

(10:50 PM) AEN: ic..

(10:55 PM) AEN: the questions are koans?

(10:57 PM) Thusness: no to penetrate indepth 3 aspects deeply

(10:59 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:59 PM) Thusness: i mean u need to penetrate indepth 3 aspects deeply

(11:00 PM) Thusness: however i do not want to tell u too much so that u go around saying this and that and commenting ppl are not there yet

(11:03 PM) AEN: ic..

(11:04 PM) AEN: lol

(11:07 PM) Thusness: for example u see AF description of insight and experience are very similar to what i described in anatta article.

(11:09 PM) AEN: oic.. ya

(11:10 PM) AEN: lucky7strikes have realised emptiness?

(11:11 PM) Thusness: there is no ending to this realization

(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;

Refrain from both positive and negative projection -

leave appearances alone:

The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.

-Tilopa

this is very good

(11:46 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.

ask luckystrikes

(11:52 PM) AEN: ok

(11:55 PM) AEN: posted

(12:29 AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby:  If you see that awareness is none other than everything, and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life, the diversity of experience itself.

(12:30 AM) Thusness: very good.

(12:31 AM) Thusness: This is anatta

(12:31 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:32 AM) Thusness: what left in is the intensity of practice.

(12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely without trace of awareness

(12:34 AM) AEN: ic..

'We talk about awareness only to see that what we take to be separate objects are really thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc appearing and disappearing within awareness. As that is seen through, we see that the word awareness is actually pointing to the world itself. But the separation is now sweetly missing.'

(12:36 AM) Thusness: u can start to read about scott kiloby

(12:37 AM) Thusness: only the word 'within' Awareness presents a problem.

(12:37 AM) Thusness: otherwise the insight is complete. 🙂

(12:37 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:38 AM) Thusness: put this quote into our blog

(12:38 AM) AEN: both?

(12:38 AM) Thusness: yeah

(12:38 AM) AEN: ok

(12:41 AM) AEN: posted

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/08/youre-left-with-world.html

(1:02 AM) Thusness: send also luckystrikes the scott kiloby quote

----

Session Start: Monday, 6 September, 2010

(9:01 PM) AEN: scott kiloby wrote an article on 'The Flow' http://www.kiloby.com/writings.php?offset=0&writingid=253

(9:13 PM) Thusness: kiloby's article is very good

(9:16 PM) Thusness: the article u posted in the blog by kiloby and together with this article, it fairly complete

(9:17 PM) Thusness: u must be able to integrate the 2 articles.

(9:17 PM) Thusness: currently u r looking at AF 'aliveness' that is only the luminosity aspect.

(9:19 PM) Thusness: now the article u showed me has two very important points, tell me the 2.

(9:23 PM) Thusness: many of the titles seem interesting

(9:35 PM) AEN: it's talking about self not as something solid but as the flow, ungraspable?

(9:36 PM) Thusness: no

(9:36 PM) Thusness: completely out

(9:37 PM) AEN: its saying that concepts are part of the flow, and concepts do not actually refer to something solid, and therefore thoughts aren't a problem?

(9:38 PM) Thusness: what is the different between all previous articles and this one?

(9:43 PM) AEN: the previous article seems to stress more on non conceptuality

this one seems to talk about concepts as not a problem?

im not so sure

(9:44 PM) Thusness: just read through the articles, they are very different

(9:44 PM) AEN: u're talking about which previous article

(9:44 PM) Thusness: the one u posted in our blog

(9:45 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:47 PM) AEN: im not so sure..

(9:48 PM) Thusness: so just rem this part

(9:49 PM) AEN: remember what?

(9:49 PM) Thusness: rem that there are differences between these 2 articles

very different in fact.

(9:51 PM) Thusness: and u r always looking for easy answers.  Even if u were to think, u still face the same issue that is mentioned in kiloby's article.

the article that u pasted in this msn.

(9:51 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:29 PM) AEN: in the blog article, scott kiloby talks about objects as being thoughts, emotions, sensations happening in awareness

in the article he talks about thoughts, emotions, sensations as seamless currents of an unknowable river

(10:30 PM) Thusness: totally out

(10:30 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:32 PM) Thusness: the analogy is the same as the dust and the mirror i told u.

(10:33 PM) Thusness: but he is unable to get over the idea of the mirror.

(10:33 PM) Thusness: yet in the article of the blog, he spoke of no mirror

(10:33 PM) AEN: ic..

(10:33 PM) Thusness: therefore there is no clarity of the view yet

(10:34 PM) Thusness: u can see he repeatedly talk about the current is the river

(10:35 PM) AEN: oic.. but wats the difference between the two articles?

(10:35 PM) Thusness: first go through all the points first

all are very important

(10:36 PM) Thusness: post it in the blog, i see whether i got time to go through...there are some very important points that u have to know.

(10:37 PM) Thusness: it is also advisable to re-read these articles to have deepening insight.

(10:40 PM) AEN: posted

(10:41 PM) Thusness: will go through it these few days

(10:42 PM) AEN: ic..

(10:43 PM) Thusness: u posted twice

(10:43 PM) AEN: yea deleted the other one

(10:56 PM) Thusness: is AF more about the flow article, or you r left with the world?

(11:00 PM) AEN: you are left with the world

AF seldom mentions about the flow

(11:00 PM) AEN: i think

(11:02 PM) Thusness: yes

(11:02 PM) Thusness: what is AF emphasizing?

(11:02 PM) AEN: the universe, the physical, the actual, the intensity of luminosity

(11:02 PM) Thusness: yes

this experience peaks when?

(11:03 PM) AEN: hmm

when one experiences consciousness as just the flow?

(11:04 PM) Thusness: no

why u like to anyhow link hah

(11:05 PM) AEN: 😛 the experience peaks when all sense of self/Self is being dissolved?

(11:05 PM) Thusness: closer

when u r left with the world

(11:05 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:06 PM) Thusness: like what richard herman said, the zen master slaps the floor... luminosity manifested in the actuality

(11:06 PM) AEN: ic..

(11:07 PM) Thusness: so u know why i say AF lacks of something?

(11:07 PM) Thusness: when no-self matures, what is lacking?

(11:08 PM) AEN: the intensity of luminosity as the actuality of the world?

(11:08 PM) Thusness: no

totally out

this is what AF is about

how is it that u r unable to see.

(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..

hmm its about the insight into awareness as the flow?

(11:09 PM) Thusness: are u seeing with ur heart or just going through motion.

how could the AF be lack of luminosity manifesting as actuality.

(11:10 PM) Thusness: it is expressed all over the place

(11:10 PM) AEN: ic.. ya

(11:10 PM) Thusness: if u truly want to know, then u have to be sincere in practice and at least have certain insight.

(11:11 PM) Thusness: yet 'the flow' has certain misconception

(11:12 PM) Thusness: it cannot integrate the article 'u r left with the world' with 'the river and the current'.

go contemplate

don't anyhow answer

(11:13 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:19 PM) AEN: btw u saw rar jungle's post? http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

in the comments section

(11:19 PM) Thusness: yeah

(11:20 PM) Thusness: such comment is not so appropriate in the blog

more appropriate to be in the sgforums

(11:21 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:13 AM) AEN: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/15659-edo-and-the-self/

(12:38 AM) AEN: mikael says:

*i think I have a natural disposition toward the PCE

*i think i've had one before

*whenever I "naturally" try to meditate.. I concentrate on the senses and try to "become" the world, ignore feelings by just seeming them as impermanent physical sensations. thoughts are usually non existent because i'm concentrating

*i'm going to try to cultivate that

(12:44 AM) AEN: i think i know the difference between the first and second article... the awareness is the world is like talking about the 2nd stanza of anatta with the emphasis on luminosity as the universe, then the flow is talking abuot the 1st stanza of anatta... the insubstantiality of everything as

simply mind moments arising and passing without anything graspable whatsoever. like a thought is simply an arising bubble... but then the flow article fails to integrate the insight of awareness as simply the 'current', the universe, the sensations?

(1:58 AM) AEN: the new article still talks about river and current as if river is something inherent even though the current is part of the river... the previous article is talking about how there is no mind/awareness, only the manifestation/current

Session Start: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010

(11:15 AM) Thusness: PCE is simply non-dual experience except the realization is about manifestation (coming face to face with the actual stuff, i.e, the other five entries and exits)  instead of coming face to face with "I AM".

ur answer is still no good

(11:15 AM) Thusness: although ur answer is quite near.  You must also be aware of the part on there is no way u can have any 'concepts' of the flow.  But the idea or 'right view' is still not there.  Not having any 'fixed idea' or 'fixed view' is still not good enough.

(11:16 AM) AEN: oic..

(11:43 AM) AEN: what do u think of what upekka said: when we say 'we see the computer screen', we take the 'seeing+computer screen' as one entity and we are conscious to the computer screen. this is what happen to us all the time, this will be what happen to us all the time unless we can not understand Buddha's Teaching

if we are mindful, if we have sati, if we have yoniso-manasikara, we do not cling to the 'computer screen', we are not with ignoranace (avijja) so do not create any sankhara (kamma-formation)

when there is no kamma-formation, there is no place for Consciousness to reside on

(11:43 AM) AEN: one thought moment arisen and fallen away without any residual to come back again in future

in other words, in one thought moment there is no Dependent-arising activated

(4:44 PM) AEN: http://www.you-are-that.com/questions-&-answers.html

    * There is no individual 'seer', there is only Pure Consciousness Seeing.

    * There is no individual 'hearer', there is only Pure Consciousness Hearing.

    * There is no individual 'speaker', there is only Pure Consciousness Speaking.

    * There is no individual 'thinker', there is only Pure Consciousness Thinking.

    * There is no individual' doer', there is only Pure Consciousness Doing.

    * There is no individual 'life', there is only Pure Consciousness Living.

    * There is no individual 'breather', there is only Pure Consciousness breathing.

This "pure Intelligence" or "living presence" is keeping your entire body together, the "glue" that is holding the whole universe in  place as it appears. Functioning your entire body effortlessly and naturally for you. There is absolutely nothing you have to do by  "will", to be alive right now! This living presence or livingness naturally IS! It is your natural state of presence.

(4:44 PM) AEN:

Just like when you were only a group of cells, this "pure Intelligence" or "Life" was growing you and forming you effortlessly and  naturally. Putting together the pattern or body that you have right now, inside your mother's womb all by itself, just as it is still

  growing you right now naturally and effortlessly all by itself. This pure Intelligence, Life or Consciousness, does not need any help  from you or anyone else, it knows very well what it is doing!

Realize that this entire manifested Universe is that exact same one "Presence", unchanged and untouched by time and space. The  "Infinite Essence" of this entire Universe is your essence also, one and the same! Only one essence is present, that is your true  nature or natural state of presence, not a small transient human being, but this Infinite unchanging Presence of Consciousness.

(8:33 PM) Thusness: this is what your must experience for the next few years

(8:34 PM) Thusness: + what taught in AF.  That is experience the actuality of manifestation

(8:35 PM) Thusness: PCE must be experienced in both background and foreground and the realization of "I AM" and One Mind must be clear.

(10:29 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:11 PM) Thusness: ic...seems like the blog is getting popular...lol

u promoted too much

(11:12 PM) Thusness: when u go bmt, u will not have so much time

(11:12 PM) AEN: ic..

(11:14 PM) Thusness: wow...visitors is 183

yesterday

Session Start: Friday, 10 September, 2010

(11:39 PM) AEN: yesterday had a weird dream.. u passed away. and i was very sad... lol

(12:24 AM) AEN: intense luminosity is very blissful

(10:04 AM) Thusness: lol

(10:04 AM) Thusness: yes...intense luminosity is very blissful...only in a relax way that 'you' disappears.

(10:04 AM) Thusness: This is not "I AM" realization

(10:04 AM) Thusness: anyway your experience of aliveness is good, u r directly experiencing 'this' in the foreground as transience and beginning to experience the bliss of anatta...i hope to write you something before ur enlistment. 🙂

Session Start: Sunday, 12 September, 2010

(12:15 AM) Thusness: Thorough  aliveness  also requires  you  to disappear.  It is an experience of being totally  transparent  and without boundaries.  If you do not fall back to a background, these experiences are quite obvious, u will not miss it.  

(12:21 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:22 AM) Thusness: In addition to bringing this  taste  to the foreground, u must also  realize  the difference between wrong and right view.  There is also a difference in saying  Different forms of Aliveness  and  There is just breath, sound, scenery  

(12:23 AM) Thusness: that these arising dependently originates.

(12:24 AM) Thusness: In the former case, realize how the mind is manifesting a subtle tendency of attempting to  pin  and locate something that inherently exists. The mind feels uneasy and needs to seek for something due to its existing paradigm.   

.   It is not simply a matter of expression for communication sake but a habit that runs deep because it lacks a  view  that is able to cater for reality that is dynamic, ungraspable, non-local , center-less and interdependent.  

(12:25 AM) Thusness: Otherwise the mind will continue to locate and seek.  

(12:26 AM) Thusness: Lastly also understand that 'bliss' is the result of luminosity, 'liberation' is the result of the insight of emptiness.

(12:26 AM) AEN: ic..

so one must understand emptiness also

(12:27 AM) AEN: like replace the wrong view with right view

(12:27 AM) Thusness: yes

(12:28 AM) Thusness: intensity of luminosity into the foreground, into actuality does not result in auto letting go.

(12:28 AM) Thusness: the mind continues to hold in a very deep level and subtle way.

(12:28 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:34 AM) Thusness: so u know why Buddha taught vipassana?

(12:35 AM) AEN: its to directly experience luminosity without a self and without holding on to something permanent or inherent

(12:36 AM) Thusness: in the foreground

(12:36 AM) AEN: ic..

(12:36 AM) Thusness: as aggregates

(12:38 AM) AEN: oic..

Also See: Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

Aditya Prasad

André A. Pais Curious, how does this map onto the AtR model (in your view)?

Reply

2d

Edited

André A. Pais

Aditya Prasad probably it doesn't. It can be read as merely pointing to I Am.

Yet if we get more creative, we can see I Am (identification with consciousness), but also non-dual (phenomena being one with consciousness, and consciousness itself being one with the absolute).

Finally we can see that notions of consciousness or phenomena are designated out of the absolute, which is nothing but appearance and emptiness. The absolute ground is luminous empty appearances, which is designated as consciousness, phenomena, etc.

I shared recently the simplified version of the AtR model (I am, non-dual, anatta, shunyata) with John and he said that all that has been clear for him for quite a while.

Reply

1d

Aditya Prasad

André A. Pais I must admit that I don't yet understand the distinction between consciousness and awareness (or the absolute). I think of luminosity as another label for consciousness.

As for the simplified model being clear to John, what do you mean? Are there aspects there that aren't covered in AtR? (I've read it a few times and love it BTW, if it's the one I'm thinking of. I might ask you questions about it later...)

Reply

1d

André A. Pais

Aditya Prasad by John I mean John Wheeler. 😅

Reply

1d

Soh Wei Yu

André A. Pais he isn't clear even though he thought so. He went through I AM, then impersonality (he calls 'no self'), then one mind sort of nondual. Closer to Thusness Stage 4. He is clear about 1 to 4 but not 5 and onwards.

Session Start: Tuesday, January 20, 2009

(7:54 PM) AEN:

john wheeler: "i found that it is turned into a practice, the notion of the practice or attainment is based on the assumption that u have separated from the natural being itself. Essentially you find that the notion that arise that you stand separate from the being, and that becomes the basis of all the troubles. You can't be a seeker or a sufferer, or have a question or a doubt or a problem as

that pure non conceptual presence, and so that root of all of that activity is the assumption that I have moved apart from that, that I have somehow stood apart from pure being itself. When we question that to basically look and see, have I separated from that? Have I moved away from the pure awareness itself, however we want to point to that... to see if there is any evidence that there has

been any actual separation, and what we find is the exact same insight that we saw originally... all that we discover is our identity as that pure being itself. Exactly like you say, we don't find anything, we find that the assumed separation isn't real, hasn't happened."

(8:05 PM) AEN: -- from an mp3

(8:05 PM) AEN: "....At this point you can dispense with making a division between thoughts and awareness. That is good in the beginning as a means to make awareness evident. However, from another angle, thoughts, feelings and perceptions arise from, exist upon and subside into awareness. They have no real substance or independent existence apart from awareness. So they are only awareness

(8:06 PM) AEN: appearing as those forms, like waves emerging from the sea. It is all one substance. There is only one awareness, one presence. There is no separation possible, because there is no division in reality. There are no objects in ultimate truth, only awareness. There is

no one standing apart from that. Everything that appears is only that. All thoughts and feelings are only that. All is that. You are that. So what can you gain and lose at any time?" -- "You Were Never Born", John Wheeler

Session Start: Wednesday, January 21, 2009

(10:40 AM) Thusness: What John Wheeler said is quite true but only from the point of view of non-dual. Therefore it is insight that liberates. There are 2 important insights about our nature, one being non-dual and the other being the empty nature. John Wheeler is more about non-dual but our emptiness nature are equally important. In whatever case, both insights must lead a practitioner towards effortlessness

(10:41 AM) Thusness: and spontaneity as non-dual luminosity and emptiness are the nature of pristine awareness

(10:51 AM) Thusness: What John Wheeler said in the mp3 is good. After that realisation, practitioner realises it is insight that liberates and there is never a separation but the practitioner must also realised the power of the bond. Like a magical spell that blinds us from seeing the truth of our nature. This 'strength' if overlooked is equally misleading. One can teach and device a method like Dzogchen to

(10:54 AM) Thusness: experience whatever arises openly and fearlessly as all is Awareness but to deny the 'strength' of the bond and over-emphasis that nothing need to be done is very misleading. Just like reality is not what it seems to be but there is no denial of reality,

(10:56 AM) Thusness: after non-dual insight, the way of practice is pathless; it does not mean there is no practice needed.

Session Start: Friday, 20 November, 2009

...

(2:01 PM) AEN: btw i dun really understand. is john wheeler's realisation about impersonality or is it about no-self and whats the diff 😛

(2:21 PM) Thusness: John wheeler realized certain aspect of no-self

(2:21 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:21 PM) Thusness: Not anatta but close to phase 4

(2:21 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:22 PM) Thusness: The sense of dualism is still there

(2:22 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:22 PM) Thusness: Because he will not be able to integrate the transient

(2:23 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:23 PM) Thusness: He can however realize he is lived by a greater life

(2:24 PM) AEN: icic.. is that what u mean by feeling God

(2:24 PM) Thusness: All manifestations is the doing of this One life

(2:24 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:25 PM) AEN: eckhart tolle said "Many expressions that are in common usage, and sometimes the structure of language itself, reveal the fact that people don't know who they are. You say: "He lost his life" or "my life," as if life were something that you can possess or lose. The truth is: you don't have a life, you are life. The One Life, the one consciousness that pervades the entire universe and takes temporary form to experience itself as a stone or blade of grass, as an animal, a person, a star or a galaxy.

Can you sense deep within that you already know that? Can you sense that you already are That?"

(2:25 PM) Thusness: This One Life is same to u as well as me.

(2:25 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:26 PM) Thusness: This is a very subtle extrapolation

(2:27 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:27 PM) Thusness: But experientially it does appears so

(2:27 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:28 PM) Thusness: It has a lot to do with the spontaneous arising and impersonality (deconstruction of personality)

(2:29 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:31 PM) Thusness: Therefore when one focus and refine the 4 aspects i spoke abt without even arising the insight of non-dual, one can still lead to such an experience

This is stage 2

(2:31 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:31 PM) Thusness: Get it?

(2:31 PM) AEN: ya think so

(2:32 PM) AEN: so stage 2 is related to impersonality?

(2:33 PM) Thusness: Further to that one will want to penetrate into 3.

(2:34 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:34 PM) Thusness: Re-read phase one to 3

(2:34 PM) AEN: ok

(2:35 PM) Thusness: Phase 4 is strictly non-dual

(2:35 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:35 PM) Thusness: Though non-dual still having inherent view

(2:37 PM) Thusness: So a practitioner still does not see the truth of the relative

The absolute still seem special

(2:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:38 PM) Thusness: That is One Mind

(2:38 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:40 PM) AEN: The "vision" of truth appears new because it was not noticed before. Whatever we are and the world is, is already the fact. There is no attainment involved in being what you are. That is the constant space of life, awareness or being in which all appears. It includes silence and sound, activity and stillness, form and emptiness, knowledge and ignorance, and all other dualities and opposites. Your natural condition is not a state within the appearances but the spacious heart of reality which contains and embraces them all. It is like a bright mirror in which diverse reflections rise and set. The mirror remains as it is and bears no relation to the presence or absence of its reflections. The mirror cannot be limited by or identified with any of the reflections appearing in it, nor does it grasp or resist them. For their part, the reflections have no substance or independent nature apart from the mirror. In the same way, all that is, was or ever will be is contained in the timeless light of your true nature. The strange and wonderful thing is that this has always been so.

If this is not noticed, it gets pointed out and recognized, and the true perspective is restored. It is as simple as that. - john wheeler

this is like One Mind?

(2:44 PM) AEN: btw i just remembered a talk given by ven shen kai in the early 80s where he described about how one dissolves the self into the universe substance that is no different from all the buddhas... like the self dissolve and merge into space... and that while he was doing puja he totally dissolved into a place far away but later got back. but later he dissolved again. i think he's sort of like describing stage 3 right?

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Soh Wei Yu

(2:45 PM) AEN: i think i sent u that mp3 before long ago

(2:47 PM) Thusness: In phase 4, a practitioner will be obsessed with this substratum in a non-dual context.

(2:48 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:51 PM) Thusness: U must understand phase 5-7 is refining the insight of the same experience of 4

(2:52 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:56 PM) Thusness: U so clearly see that non-dual is implicit as there never is any agent apart from the ongoing phenomenality

(2:57 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:57 PM) Thusness: Then u realized the true meaning of anatta and emptiness

(2:57 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:57 PM) Thusness: And move from disassociation to self liberation

(2:58 PM) AEN: icic..

(3:00 PM) Thusness: Seems like talking to different practitioners help u understand the 7 phases but don't make it as an absolute model.

(3:00 PM) AEN: oic..

...

2010:

Session Start: Wednesday, 10 March, 2010

(12:22 PM) AEN: i think last time john wheeler talk about the i am/being/witness, then in the recent book he changed alot and talked about 'beyond consciousness', beyond the being and the witness, and he said "Consciousness appears as a transient state on your original condition. It is intimately tied to the presence of the

(12:23 PM) AEN: body-mind, which reflects the light of awareness, allowing consciousness to manifest in a tangible way.'

the presence of the body-mind is a necessary requirement for consciousness to manifest and for awareness to become aware that it is. Just as sunlight and reflected sunlight are really not two separate things, neither are non-dual awareness and manifested consciousness actually different.

(12:23 PM) AEN: You are that which was present before consciousness appeared on you. Before consciousness appeared, you were, but you did not know yourself or have any sense of existence. That is the absolute, non-dual or perfect state.

(12:26 PM) AEN: ...If consciousness is only a modification of the absolute, non-dual reality, then consciousness as such does not truly exist, since it has no actual independent nature. Consciousness appears but it has never truly existed as an independent reality. All there is, is the unconditioned, absolute, non-dual source. That absolute reality is all there is, and it is all that we have ever been. There has never been anything else except this. http://www.non-dualitypress.com/.../The%20Light%20Behind...

(12:46 PM) AEN: seeker posted in DhO haha http://www.dharmaoverground.org/.../messag.../message/392145

(6:17 PM) Thusness: Yes. John Wheeler is beginning to realize 'transience'

(6:17 PM) AEN: but he still talks about an eternal absolute beyond consciousness a bit confusing

(6:19 PM) Thusness: yes

(6:19 PM) AEN: "Consciousness is duality itself. You are prior to consciousness, prior to being, prior to presence, prior to the knower, prior to stillness."

(6:20 PM) Thusness: yes

(6:20 PM) Thusness: i told u before there is a desync of view and experience

(6:21 PM) Thusness: it is difficult to arise insight and one will rest in the non-conceptuality personifying it into an ultimate source

(6:22 PM) Thusness: seems to be a struggle to realize the nature of the transient who is seeker?

(6:22 PM) AEN: i dunnu.. never knew him b4. oic

(6:22 PM) Thusness: i din see the nick 'seeker'

(6:22 PM) Thusness: in dho

(6:23 PM) AEN: ya but Teck Cheong Han and seeker writing style the same 😛

(6:24 PM) Thusness: so u guess one ah

(6:24 PM) AEN: ya lol

(6:24 PM) AEN: anyway he also talked about the same things

(6:25 PM) Thusness: yes

(6:27 PM) AEN: btw i think i know john wheeler suddenly changed, i remember before he wrote that book many months back i sent him a link to the six stages, then inside there, longchen commented on john wheeler's article:

This is not exactly true... He sees presences as separate from thoughts...

What he percieved is thru 'the eternal witness' or pure observer... which is a very subtle witnessing... or 'cross referencing'.

This pure observer is also within the flow... it is not unchanging...In fact, it is changing all the time... in the stream too...so to speak

http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/210722...

(6:27 PM) AEN: then in the book he wrote about the witness and consciousness being transient also

(6:31 PM) Thusness: the right view is just a pointer

(6:31 PM) Thusness: because the mind is unable to see clearly the nature of reality

(6:32 PM) Thusness: the dualistic mind either sees only the mirror or is lost in the images of the appearances

(6:32 PM) Thusness: it cannot see the nature of the appearances

(6:33 PM) AEN: oic..

(6:35 PM) Thusness: first have the experience of non-dual and further deconstruct all the mental constructs (self, objects and prepositional phrases "in/out, here/there..etc")

then later u begin to realize what is meant by 'inherent' in Buddhism

(6:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(6:39 PM) Thusness: many of the 'Awareness practices' tend to teach non-duality by disassociation. This is not non-dual, direct approach.

(6:42 PM) Thusness: Only through the realization of the anatta nature of the transient can a practitioner sees the 'pathless path'

(6:43 PM) Thusness: and this implies realizing that the transient is the very Reality that is non-dual, luminous yet empty.

(6:44 PM) AEN: oic..

(6:46 PM) Thusness: if u cannot understand the transient in the way that is presented by Peter Fenner, then u will why do we stressed so much about the transient

(6:48 PM) Thusness: if u see that there is truly no coming/going, here/there, in/out in manifestation, then u being realize both the 'Ultimate and Transient' share the same non-dual luminous essence and empty nature.

(6:50 PM) Thusness: A practitioner must continue to refine the 'view' till he is completely clear what is really blinding him.

2010:

(7:44 PM) Thusness: Some mistaken "I AMness" as non-dual in non-dual teaching.

(7:45 PM) Thusness: some have experience of non-dual but knows not the knot that blinds them. like John Wheeler. Some is clear about non-dual but is still attached to the One Mind.

(7:46 PM) Thusness: some totally eliminate the background and is clear that the formless background is simply another manifestation.

(7:47 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:48 PM) Thusness: some sees clearly the non-dual yet empty nature and maturing the insight realizes that the direct path is the natural state of self-liberation. But it is not as u described. and has nothing to do with what u said..

(7:49 PM) Thusness: it is clear seeing of the non-dual and empty nature of all arisings that lead to self liberation

(7:49 PM) Thusness: because the approach has nothing to do with dis-association.

(7:50 PM) Thusness: so the 'freeing of the inherent and dualistic' tendencies at that moment of 'seeing' is liberation. By definition, the absence of these tendencies is liberation.

(7:52 PM) Thusness: so practice becomes dynamic

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Soh Wei Yu

2010:

(7:46 PM) AEN: john wheeler: Like anything else, the "sense of I am" is still an appearance, an experience. Realize that the "sense of I am " is not what you are. You are TO WHOM even that appears. What you are has no "I" sense at all. There is no "I" in non-conceptual awareness. It is not even looking at anything, because it is one without a second. The observer and the observed both appear in your non-conceptual reality. Do not confuse what you are with the "observer". That also is a limited thing, an appearance. You are beyond the observer also.

.... Reality, your true nature itself, has no center or reference point. It is not in the head, in the body, or anywhere else. All appearances arise in that which has no position, reference point or boundary and which is your natural condition. A subtle reference of what we are to a location still implies a specific "I" that is able to be located. But pure being or awareness is "no thing". It has no position, no time, no space, no location. All of those only apply to a thing. But your real nature is not an object, not a thing. The basis of the troubles is the separate "I" notion. If there is any subtle belief in the "I", the mind will attempt to give it some position, definition, location or concept. Why? Because it has no substance. It

(7:47 PM) AEN: It needs to wrap itself in some clothing to have any semblance of being. One solution is to try to pull away all the landing zones. That is potentially an endless undertaking. It is so easy for the "I" notion to creep back into the proceedings. That is often the blind spot. The nature of a blind spot is that you cannot see it because you are looking through it and not recognizing that fact. It is like looking through your glasses to find the glasses you assume are lost. The clear and direct solution is to examine the validity of the "I" notion itself. Do not settle for pulling away the leaves and branches, but go for the root.

(7:49 PM) Thusness: yet that is still a referencing

(7:51 PM) Thusness: to be without reference is to realize that all there is always only Appearance. When u realized that thoroughly, u r without reference, location, direct and vividly Present. 🙂

Session Start: Monday, 19 April, 2010

(5:12 PM) AEN: john wheeler: To know any experience, there must be a knowing that "I am". That is just the basic conscious knowing of being present. That is what first appears out of deep sleep. It is not a personal "I" or any other notion. Call it impersonal knowing. Subsequently, the mind begins operating and the separate "I" notion is created in thought.

Pure awareness, or non-conceptual reality, is non-dual. Upon or within this arises self-consciousness, which is the pure sense of "I am", but not yet individualized. Then follows the "I" concept, or the notion of separate individuality. Lastly, there appear notions such as I am this or that (body, mind, personality, etc.).

From the perspective of reality, there is NO appearance to speak of, because the seeming appearance is the appearance of THAT. It is all THAT.

(5:12 PM) AEN: All phenomena appear in consciousness. That consciousness is NOT personal. It is the primordial or first experience in duality. It is the pure sense of "I am" with no other content, just knowing "I am" without words, or being self-consciously aware. But that is still an experience. You are the space in which even that comes and goes.

Session Start: Monday, 19 April, 2010

(10:51 PM) Thusness: John Wheeler recent para is not bad.

(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..

he's talking about non dual?

(11:11 PM) Thusness: not just that

(11:13 PM) Thusness: John Wheeler seems to be able to outline the different phases of "I M" i told u

(11:14 PM) Thusness: however that is only up till non-dual level

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Soh Wei Yu

The reason why he thinks he understood anatta: because he realised certain aspect of no self. But only impersonality and up to nondual. 99% of the time when someone talks about no self, it is only at the impersonality level. They are not aware of the different degrees of self/Self and no-self/Self and the different insights and subtleties as I explained in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html

Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

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Soh Wei Yu

Aditya Prasad This distinction between consciousness and awareness only occurs in his later books, not earlier ones. When he was more influenced by Nisargadatta who is trying to point to Thusness Stage 3 (see: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/03/thusnesss-comments-on-nisargadatta.html )

And also see:

Thusness's Comments on Nisargadatta / Stage 3

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Thusness's Comments on Nisargadatta / Stage 3

Thusness's Comments on Nisargadatta / Stage 3

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Soh Wei Yu

Session Start: Monday, 21 June, 2010

(7:41 AM) AEN: http://www.naturalstate.us/pointers.html

what do u think of this:

(7:41 AM) AEN: When consciousness dawns upon arising from sleep, it is simply pure "knowing that I am". It is not individual, and is in fact, impersonal and unlimited. The notion of a limited self or "me" spins up in the subsequent conceptualizing in the mind after consciousness has already arisen. But

don't forget that your real position is the ever-present reality on which waking (consciousness) and sleep (unconsciousness) both appear.

(8:26 AM) AEN: A lot of people come up to the level of consciousness or recognizing the sense of being and take that as the absolute. Here they get stuck and mistake the dawn for the noon, so to speak. The "knowing that I am" or state of consciousness is the first eruption or modification on the absolute, eternal state. People generally miss the fact that

consciousness is an intermittent appearance. It is the first modification on the absolute and the beginning of duality. What people are often expounding as reality is really the root of the illusion! What is prior to consciousness — which is what you really are — cannot

(8:26 AM) AEN: properly be named. Whatever term is used is only a pointer. Sure, it may be pointed to as consciousness, awareness, being, emptiness, etc. but these are provisional pointers only. In the end, even these are discarded. Even statements like "I am consciousness",

"consciousness is all there is", "there is no one here", etc., are only mental concepts. So don't settle for pointers! Let the pointers go and BE what is being pointed to.

(8:38 AM) AEN: "many practitioners cannot know the difference and see the exact cause of arising and simply blah that there is no cause to it...

u should be clear about it." - lol i just found a post that did the exact same thing by saying there is no cause and whatever u do is useless 😛 http://beingisknowing.blogspot.com/.../nothing-works...

(8:41 AM) Thusness: When we say cause, we are really saying predictable patterns, not a metaphysical something behind.

(8:41 AM) AEN: oic.. yah, this guy is saying there is no predictable pattern or cause of an insight... and whatever u do is useless 😛

then i wonder why he wrote that for 😛

(8:42 AM) Thusness: ic...that is advaita...

(8:42 AM) AEN: ic.. u mean advaita generally teach that?

they teach self inquiry rite

(8:45 AM) Thusness: yeah...overwhelmed by the taste of presence, we wanted so much to make it 'independent' to suit our 'free will' and 'absolute' model of our dualistic paradigm, that is the mind created such a notion of Absolute Reality.

(8:46 AM) Thusness: This will only hinder our progress from further experiencing presence.

(8:46 AM) AEN: oic..

(8:46 AM) AEN: btw did u see this article - deepak chopra seems to be talking about the maha experience here http://www.anhglobal.org/en/node/591

(8:49 AM) Thusness: imo, that is more theoretical then experiential.

(8:49 AM) AEN: icic..

(9:03 AM) AEN: http://www.prahlad.org/.../NISARGADATTA%20CONSCIOUSNESS...

(9:03 AM) AEN: 3. Then I realize that if I subtract all the above, what is left? Only my sense of existing itself, my sense of presence, my sense of being here, the consciousness. I realize that I am that consciousness only,

(9:03 AM) AEN: the feeling of existing. I must be THAT. What IS that? It is very subtle. But now I am coming closer. This is the realization of the mystical phrase "I am that I am." And along with this stage of realization

comes the realization of my universality. This realization of the "I am" brings with it the explosive understanding that there is no such thing as an individual, the "I am" is universal, everyone and every

living thing is feeling it the same way. We don't ourselves create our sense of "I am." Rather we inherit the prior existing sense of presence of the original beingness which spontaneously first appeared on the background of the void, or the object-less pure awareness.

4. When I am thus established in sense of identity with this universal sense of presence, or the "I am," I am at last poised for the final realization. Remember, the realization of the "I am" is already a very

high state, and many will simply stop here to enjoy living in the universal personless beingness. This is the knowledge of God and the knowledge that I am God. But some rare ones keep going and keep

questioning deeper and come to the breakthrough realization that ALL beingness, even the beingness of "God" is still a form of illusion and duality, and they will realize and move into and "become" the

(9:03 AM) AEN: pure awareness only, giving up even that last and very high identity as the universal "I am." The consciousness will continue on no doubt, and the all the activities of life, but the identity of myself will now be

(9:04 AM) AEN: fixed back at its original home, the pure awareness which was prior to consciousness.

This last step is still incomprehensible to me but I love to think about it again and again. Many can give up the lesser false identifications, casting them off like tattered old clothes and stripping naked down

to the singular universal consciousness. But who can give up that very sense of beingness itself? We LOVE to be, and fear terribly not being anymore. It is frightening! Looked at from a lower level the final

realization seems like absolute and utter annihilation itself, and who on earth wants to be completely annihilated? Thus, very few rare souls ever realize the final realization! Above all, I WANT TO BE!

(9:05 AM) AEN: Buddha became the Void itself and entered into the great nirvana. A friend of mine called it "The Great Suicide." Then one realizes the final incredible and terrifying reality: there is nothing. And though

really and truly there is absolutely nothing, at the same time that nothingness is inexplicably filled to fullness with an indescribable "something which is not a thing," the pure awareness, the absolute,

unaware of itself. That is the one and only "thing-which-is-not- a-thing" which is truly real. All else is false, a fraud made of spacetime, of things which begin and end and come and go, the Great Maha

Maya, the dreams of the universal mind.

-

is this talking about transiting from I AM to impersonality?

(9:08 AM) Thusness: no

(9:11 AM) Thusness: this is phase 3 in terms of thoroughness and willingness of giving out even the sense of Presence... a phase to eliminate the ultimate block. Whatever experience that arises becomes secondary... it is an inner development to eliminate the last trace of 'Self/self' or clinging to the sense of 'I' but without any arising insight of non-dual or anatta.

(9:12 AM) Thusness: that sense of 'Self', that knot, that ultimate clinging, that ultimate attachment... we do not have to do away with it this way, it can be dissolved by the right view of emptiness.

(9:13 AM) AEN: oic..

(9:13 AM) Thusness: with that clinging to Presence, 'effortlessness' will not be truly understood.

(9:14 AM) Thusness: any form of clinging, be it Self/self or Presence, will prevent a practitioner from correctly experiencing 'effortlessness'. This is the 4th aspect I want u to realize.

(9:15 AM) Thusness: However this person only sees the 'void'.

(9:15 AM) AEN: icic..

(9:22 AM) AEN: btw what i pasted just now by john wheeler on top is also on the void?

(9:40 AM) Thusness: john wheeler is speculating with the attachment of Presence.

(9:40 AM) AEN: oic..

(9:43 AM) Thusness: that is, he wants to talk about the 'void' without giving up the sense of Presence.

(9:43 AM) AEN: icic..

naturalstate.us

NATURALSTATE.US

naturalstate.us

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Acarya Malcolm Smith posted: “My Dzogchen: Ten Key Terms Black Friday Special at Wisdom Publications. 60% off select courses using code ACADEMY60.” - https://wisdomexperience.org/dzogchen-terms/

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLunA4Fx_X22IJ0EbaBA6vB4dLMfs6QCoA

Also see: The Unbounded Field of Awareness

Quotes from The Great Ocean Samadhi chapter from Zen Master Dogen's Shobogenzo: