Soh

Also see: Appropriated Aggregates are Suffering


A question was recently posed that gets to the very core of Buddhist practice:
"I'm having a hard time understanding the first noble truth. What is Dukkha? As I understood five clinging aggregates themselves are dukkha. Why is that?"

This is a great question, and it gets to the very heart of the Buddha's teaching. I must say, it is a very common point of confusion, often because of the mistranslation or misunderstanding that the 1st noble truth means "life is suffering," which isn't at all what the Buddha taught.

The key is in understanding what 
Upādāna means in the pañcupādānakkhandhāUpādāna carries a double sense in the canon: (1) the act of grasping/appropriating and (2) the fuel/sustenance that keeps a process going (via the Buddha’s fire metaphor). In most contexts—especially the formula “pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā” and in Dependent Origination—the standard and clearest translation is “clinging/appropriation.”

Hence what the Buddha really meant is: "appropriated aggregates are suffering", meaning that suffering arises specifically from clinging (appropriation, or upādāna), which is rooted in making things "I" or "mine."

Here is a more thorough breakdown, drawing on the suttas.

1. What the Buddha Actually Defined as Dukkha

In his very first sermon, the Buddha laid out the Four Noble Truths. When defining the First Noble Truth (Dukkha), he listed examples like birth, aging, sickness, and death, and then gave a definitive summary.

“Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

— SN 56.11 (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta)

Full text: https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi

The key phrase is "five aggregates subject to clinging" (pañcupādānakkhandhā). He did not just say "the five aggregates are suffering." This distinction is the most important point.

2. "Aggregates" vs. "Clinging-Aggregates"

The five aggregates (khandha) are simply the components of our experience:

  • Form (bodies, sights, sounds, etc.)

  • Feeling (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral)

  • Perception (recognition, labeling)

  • Mental Formations (intentions, choices, habits)

  • Consciousness (the knowing of the other aggregates)

These are just the processes of life. The problem—the dukkha—is the upādāna (clinging, appropriation, "taking up").

The suttas make this distinction clear. In the Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44), the nun Dhammadinnā is asked what the Buddha calls "identity" (sakkāya).

“'Identity, identity,' is said, Noble Lady. What, Noble Lady, is said to be identity by the Gracious One?”

These five constituents (of mind and body) that provide fuel for attachment, friend Visākha, are said to be identity by the Gracious One, as follows: the form constituent that provides fuel for attachment, the feelings constituent... the perceptions constituent... the (mental) processes constituent... the consciousness constituent that provides fuel for attachment....”

— MN 44 (Cūḷavedalla Sutta)

Full text (Anandajoti): https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/anandajoti

Full text (Bodhi): https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/bodhi

As this translation notes, upādāna doesn't just mean "clinging"; it also means "fuel" or "nutriment." When we identify, cling to, or appropriate the aggregates, we are fueling a process of "becoming" (bhava)—the ongoing creation of a "self" that experiences birth, aging, and death, which is the "whole mass of suffering."

To be clear, the Buddha distinguished aggregates vs aggregates subject to clinging in this way:

"Linked Discourses 22.48

5. Be Your Own Island

Aggregates

At Sāvatthī.

“Mendicants, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five grasping aggregates. “Grasping” is so central to the concept of the five aggregates that we rarely find the “bare” aggregates mentioned as here. To head off a misunderstanding, the purpose of this discourse is not to establish that an arahant has aggregates free of grasping, since this is not brought up at all. Rather, it is to clarify the nature of grasping in relation to the aggregates. Listen …

And what are the five aggregates? The five aggregates are the five “masses” or “conglomerates” or “categories” consisting of all instance of that type of phenomena. So far as I can tell, it was not a Vedic technical term. However, the Jains know khandha as a clump of more than one atom, namely a “molecule” (Tattvārthasūtra 5.5). It seems that, along with other terms of similar meaning (sakkāya and puggala; see notes to SN 22.22 and SN 22.105), it was vocabulary shared with the Jains, though used in different senses. I have not discovered anywhere where the five are grouped together as such, although in the Suttas people who are not Buddhists seem familiar with them.

Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of form.

Any kind of feeling at all …

Any kind of perception at all …

Any kind of choices at all …

Any kind of consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of consciousness.

These are called the five aggregates.

And what are the five grasping aggregates? The five aggregates are not presented as a catch-all category that encompasses all of reality, but rather five types of phenomena that provoke attachment, forming the basis of what we take to be “self”. Desire is what drives the formation of attachment, but it requires all the aggregates to function. Thus the “grasping” aggregates are numbered “five” after the hand that grasps.

Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, which is accompanied by defilements and fuels grasping: this is called the grasping aggregate of form. The text illustrates the noun “grasping” (upādāna) with the future passive participle “graspable” (upādāniya). I render it “fuels grasping” to capture the secondary sense of “fuel” for the fire (SN 12.52:1.2). This is the aspect of the aggregates that stimulate or provoke desire and attachment. The “grasping” itself is the desire and lust for the aggregates (SN 22.121). But desire only functions as part of a system involving all the aggregates, hence the aggregates are neither identical to nor separate from the grasping (SN 22.82:4.3). Elsewhere we find the past participle “grasped” (upādinna) as that which has been “appropriated” or “taken up” at birth (MN 28:6.4).

Any kind of feeling at all …

Any kind of perception at all …

Any kind of choices at all …

Any kind of consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, which is accompanied by defilements and is fuels grasping: this is called the grasping aggregate of consciousness.

These are called the five grasping aggregates.”"


Here’s how Bhikkhu Sujato renders the four āsavas and what each means, in plain English:

  • kāmāsava → “defilement of sensual pleasures” (the pull toward sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches and their fantasies). It fuels chasing gratification and underpins craving. (SuttaCentral)

  • bhavāsava → “defilement of existence/becoming” (the urge to be or to go on being in particular states or realms; ambition to continue or upgrade one’s mode of existence). (SuttaCentral)

  • diṭṭhāsava → “defilement of views” (clinging to speculative or identity-forming views, including “I am” notions, eternalism, annihilationism, etc.).

  • avijjāsava → “defilement of ignorance” (not seeing the four noble truths, dependent origination, impermanence, not-self—hence taking what’s conditioned as worth clinging to). (SuttaCentral)

Sujato consistently translates āsava itself as “defilements” (he avoids older renderings like “cankers” or “effluents/taints”). You can see his usage in his translation of MN 2 (Sabbāsava Sutta, “All the Defilements”) and in listings like DN 33 (Saṅgīti Sutta) where the four are enumerated. (SuttaCentral)

For a succinct modern explanation of how these four operate (kāma, bhava, diṭṭhi, avijjā), see this short piece from Barre Center for Buddhist Studies (it matches the same four and their sense). (Barre Center for Buddhist Studies)

One-line summaries

  • kāmāsava: the mind’s leak toward sensuality—keeps attention flowing out to pleasant sense data. (SuttaCentral)

  • bhavāsava: the momentum of becoming/existence—keeps projects of “being someone/somewhere” going.

  • diṭṭhāsava: the stickiness of views—keeps “I am this/that” stories glued in place.

  • avijjāsava: the darkness of ignorance—keeps the whole loop running by not seeing things as they are. (SuttaCentral)

If you want the exact passages in Sujato’s wording, the live translations are here (rendered titles and section headings will show “defilements”):
MN 2 (Sabbāsava): https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato
DN 33 (Saṅgīti): https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato (SuttaCentral)

(Background note: other translators sometimes choose “taints,” “cankers,” or “effluents/outflows.” Sujato’s “defilements” is a clean, contemporary choice; regardless of the English, the Pāli category and its four members are the same.) (themindingcentre.org)


3. Why Are the Clinging-Aggregates Dukkha?

Because the aggregates themselves are impermanent (anicca) and not-self (anattā).

When you try to grasp, own, or identify with something that is fundamentally unstable, uncontrollable, empty and ungraspable, the result is friction, stress, and suffering. You are clinging to a waterfall and expecting it to hold you up.

The Buddha explained this in his second sermon, the Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta:

“Bhikkhus, form is not-self... For if, bhikkhus, form were self, this form would not lead to affliction, and it would be possible to have it of form: ‘Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus.’ But because form is not-self, form leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of form: ‘Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus.’

...[The same is said for feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness]...

“What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?”

“Impermanent, venerable sir.”

“And what is impermanent—is it suffering or happiness?”

“Suffering, venerable sir.”

“And what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change—is it fitting to regard that as: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”

“No, venerable sir.”

— SN 22.59 (Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta)

Full text: https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/bodhi

So, the aggregates themselves aren't inherently suffering in an absolute sense. It is the clinging to them as "me" or "mine"—in defiance of their impermanent, not-self nature—that is suffering.

4. The Fetter is the Clinging, Not the Senses or Objects

This is a crucial point. The suttas are surgical in their analysis. The problem isn't your eye, or the things you see. The problem is the desire and passion that arises between them.

"The eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there.

...The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there."

— SN 35.191 (Koṭṭhika Sutta)

Full text: https://suttacentral.net/sn35.191/en/sujato

An Arahant or a Buddha still has the five aggregates. They still see, hear, feel, and think. But because they have ended upādāna (clinging/appropriation), those "sheer aggregates" are no longer a source of suffering.

Likewise, we see similar statements in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism:

"My son, we are not bound by appearances; we are bound by our clinging to them."

— Tilopa to Naropa

"The five senses arising with their objects are unimpeded radiance.

What is born from not grasping at objects is the unborn basic state.

Attachment to appearances may be unceasing but reverse it: meditate naturally settled.

Empty appearances arising free from the intellect is the path of natural expressions.

Do not see appearances as problems, let go of clinging.

There will come a time when you will arrive in the valley of one taste meditation."

— Yang Gönpa

5. The Solution: Realizing Anatman (No-Self)

The way to end this suffering is to see through the illusion of a "self". This is the realization of anattā. The nun Vajirā gave a famous analogy for this:

“Why do you believe there’s such a thing as a ‘sentient being’?

Māra, is this your theory?

This is just a pile of conditions,

you won’t find a sentient being here.

When the parts are assembled

we use the word ‘chariot’.

So too, when the aggregates are present

‘sentient being’ is the convention we use.

But it’s only suffering that comes to be,

lasts a while, then expires.

Naught but suffering comes to be,

naught but suffering ceases.”

— SN 5.10 (Vajirā Sutta)

Full text: https://suttacentral.net/sn5.10/en/sujato

There is no "charioteer" (self) driving the chariot (aggregates), and no self/Self within nor apart from the aggregates. There is just the empty process manifesting due to dependent origination. When this is seen clearly, the basis for "I-making" and "mine-making" collapses.

6. The End of Appropriation = The End of Suffering

When appropriation ends, suffering ends. This is happiness and liberation. The Buddha used a powerful simile in the Alagaddūpama Sutta (The Water-Snake Simile):

“Therefore, bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it; when you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness for a long time. What is it that is not yours?

Material form is not yours. Abandon it. ...

Feeling is not yours. Abandon it. ...

Perception is not yours. Abandon it. ...

Formations are not yours. Abandon them. ...

Consciousness is not yours. Abandon it. ...

“Bhikkhus, what do you think? If people carried off the grass, sticks, branches, and leaves in this Jeta Grove, or burned them, or did what they liked with them, would you think: ‘People are carrying us off or burning us or doing what they like with us’?”

“No, venerable sir. Why not? Because that is neither our self nor what belongs to our self.”

“So too, bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it; when you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness for a long time.”

— MN 22 (Alagaddūpama Sutta)

Full text: https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi

This "abandoning" is the practice. It's not a physical abandonment, but an abandonment of the view and grasping that these things are "me" or "mine."

A glimpse of what this non-appropriative experience is like is given in the Bāhiya Sutta:

“Therefore, Bāhiya, this is how you are to train yourself:

“In the seen, there will be just the seen.

In the heard, there will be just the heard.

In the sensed2, there will be just the sensed.

In the cognized, there will be just the cognized.

This, Bāhiya, is how you are to train yourself.

Bāhiya, when it is like this for you –

In the seen, there is just the seen,

In the heard, there is just the heard,

In the sensed, there is just the sensed,

In the cognized, there is just the cognized –

Then, Bāhiya, there will be no ‘you’ in terms of this.

When there is no ‘you’ in terms of this,

Then there is no ‘you’ there;

When there is no ‘you’ there,

There is no ‘you’ here, or beyond, or in between.

Just this is the end of suffering.”

Ud 1.10 (Bāhiya Sutta)


It is the realization and actualization that in seeing, there is just the seen, never a seer behind, and in hearing, only sound, never a hearer. No agent, experiencer, observer, doer, nor any substantiated objects to be found.

Read more for explanations on Anatman realization and how it liberates: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/09/great-resource-of-buddha-teachings.html



Also see: Appropriated Aggregates are Suffering

Soh

I explained to someone:


Yeah, I basically agree that the “Dispenza current” and classical Buddhist paths are very different landscapes – I’d just tweak how you’re understanding the Buddhist side. They both talk about the realization of Presence and its benefits, but I’d say Buddhism takes it much further: it goes into much deeper insight and leads to liberation from all suffering and cyclic existence, while Dispenza/Neville/other manifestation teachings mostly focus on “tapping the Source” for immediate worldly benefits and “powers” in this life.

What you’re calling the “non-dual analytical model” isn’t meant to end in dry conceptual deconstruction. The analysis (no-self, emptiness, etc.) is a skillful means to see through a false solid self and world – not to erase aliveness. Once reification is released, what shows up is an open, lucid, self-knowing, spontaneous display of pristine consciousness. In Dzogchen terms, primordial purity (emptiness) and spontaneous presence (radiant appearance) are two inseparable aspects of the same self-luminous display.

Simultaneous with the realization of anatman (no-self) is the realization of the radiance of everything. When everything is realized as the radiant display of this empty, self-luminous awareness, everything around comes alive… chairs, rocks, ground, sky, etc. Everything is imbued with a sensuous quality of magical perfection and purity, with a lustre, brilliance, vividness and wondrous, scintillating vitality. There’s a gapless intimacy – everything feels like one’s own body feels right now, without the slightest distance. Naturally so, because it is the direct experiencing of one’s nature.

When insight into emptiness is not clear or complete, there’s a tendency to reify even that Clarity into some substantial ground behind everything – a subtle reference point or “Source” that becomes a new identity and fixation, rather than release and spontaneous presence.

Buddhism actually has huge “creation/expansion” channels: the bodhisattva path (vast heart and capacity), tantra/deity yoga (very creative embodiment and visualization grounded in emptiness), and Dzogchen/Mahamudra (all appearances as self-radiant play). The main difference from Dispenza isn’t “no creation vs creation”, but what is taken as real: Dispenza tends to strengthen a solid creator-self signalling a real field, whereas Buddhadharma sees both “self” and “field” as dependently arisen and empty – manifestation then becomes “magic without a magician”, a spontaneous, alive, spirited expression without an agent, perceiver or controller.

Dispenza and Neville do put a strong emphasis on “manifesting” desired outcomes in this life. That isn’t the main focus of Buddhism, which sees liberation from suffering and cyclic rebirth as far more crucial, but manifestation is still within Buddhism.

If you’re curious how this looks in actual practice and “manifestation” (including some pretty wild Tārā stuff), I wrote about it here from my experience, especially relating it to Tārā practice:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2024/02/tara-and-manifestation.html

Also worth reading this comment from krodha (Kyle Dixon), who has the same anattā / twofold-emptiness realization and comes from the Dzogchen side rather than New Age LOA:

"krodha replied:

A lot of people in this thread saying the law of attraction is incompatible, but my root teacher, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu used to say that if you were really able to access the samādhi of an ārya then in that state you can actually have things happen in your favor. Essentially saying you can manipulate the course of things at your whim. He said you can win the lottery for example if you’re really in that state."

So for me it’s not “Buddhism = only negation” vs “Dispenza = creation.” In the non-substantialist Buddhist view, deconstruction clears the confusion, and creation/expansion are just how this empty-luminous display naturally expresses itself when you’re not reifying a little controller or experiencer in the middle.

The realization of anatman is not dissociation or disengagement, but the opposite: it leads to gapless intimacy with everything in life. My teacher John Tan, who is himself a very successful businessman (none of whose wealth comes from teaching; he refuses to monetize dharma), put it like this:

“When anatta matures, one is fully and completely integrated into whatever arises till there is no difference and no distinction.

When sound arises, fully and completely embraced with sound yet non-attached. Similarly, in life we must be fully engaged yet non-attached.” – John Tan / Thusness

“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural tendency to explore in various arenas and enjoy business, family, spiritual practices... I am involved in finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga... I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” – John Tan / Thusness (2019)

From my side, liberation from saṃsāra and full awakening as a Buddha – so that one can actually guide beings out of suffering – is more crucial than any temporary material benefits we gain in this life (which ends in a few decades at most, a tiny speck compared to aeons of rebirths). As John wrote back in 2006:

“Life is like a passing cloud, when it comes to an end, a hundred years is like yesterday, like a snap of a finger. If it is only about one life, it really doesn’t matter whether we are enlightened. The insight that the Blessed One has is not just about one life; countless lives we suffered, life after life, unending… Such is suffering.

It is not about logic or science and there is really no point arguing in this scientific age. Take steps in practice and experience the truth of Buddha’s words. Of the 3 dharma seals, the truth of ‘suffering’ to me is most difficult to experience in depth.

May all take Buddha’s words seriously.”

And another awakened friend, Sim Pern Chong, who recalls many of his past lives, shared that when past-life impressions open up (through “words of power” practice), seeing repeated patterns of killing, being killed, wars, demonic lives, etc., naturally creates a deep motivation to end compulsive rebirth. Once you actually see this, the priority shifts: the main thing is to end saṃsāra, not just optimize one more human life.

Soh

John Tan: Later then talk.

Even thinking of it as a modulation of awareness is an issue. That is the most difficult "obstacle" to relinquish.

Now we got to understand what exactly is conventional. And understand it is the same conventional framework that leads to the same conclusion about modulation of the same awareness.


Soh Wei Yu: I see.

Soh Wei Yu: Yes, I never understood it as modulation of awareness for a long time. In fact, I think the Pali Suttas was much clearer on this point or at least brought it out better than even many Dzogchen and Zen teachings... when Buddha taught Bhikkhu Sati on consciousness and dependent origination. Consciousness being a dependent designation.


John Tan: First one must stop the habit of thinking the extremes and concluding there must be some ultimate "stuff". If we think in such a mode, forever the mind will be trapped thinking some form of reality must exist. If not, then what is it? Here is the catch. Not "what is it," but "under what conditions does such phenomenon arise." And that is the best you can get within this conventional framework. For non-substantialists, there is no urge at all to seek explanations based on or going to lead to something, get it?


Soh Wei Yu: I see.


John Tan: What is needed is, just what appears is vividly luminous and empty. Do you understand this part? Then conventionally and conceptually, it is dependent arising.


Soh Wei Yu: Yes... no basis or ground, non-existent clear appearances. {snipped} Malcolm and Kyle said that's also Dzogchen view... {snipped}


John Tan: It means what appears has to be empty for it even to appear.


Soh Wei Yu: I see.


John Tan: In science, we can explain it as stable enough patterns. Stable enough patterns or relationships being observed and conventionally designated as "something". But those patterns or regularities are only conventional too, valid and functional, nothing ultimate. So in the non-substantialist's world, conventionalities to me are important; we cannot discard and say "because they are non-existent ultimately." Because such a thought and conclusion is precisely inherent thought, as only an inherent mode of thinking requires "existence" to be essential. Get it? From this, then you can understand total exertion works in the conventional world. No hierarchy, no sequence, no core.


Soh Wei Yu: I see.


John Tan: Do you get what I mean?


Soh Wei Yu: I think so.


John Tan: You must understand total exertion is not holistic or wholeness, but beyond whole and parts. Holistic thought is that wholeness is more important than parts. But dependent arising is not based on such a concept. It is emptiness, therefore phenomena appear in dependence. Therefore it is free from hierarchy, sequence, and core. Get it?


Soh Wei Yu: I see. Yes, there is no wholeness either, otherwise it's no different from Brahman, one without a second.


John Tan: Don't just think of "ultimate," as there never is/was such reality. So no wholeness apart from parts, without hierarchy."

Soh

会话开始:2008922日,星期一

(12:31 PM) AEN: 嗨,我刚才回复你了

(12:31 PM) AEN: 我是指在论坛上

(12:54 PM) Thusness: 不要谈论无勤(effortless)和自发(spontaneity

(12:54 PM) Thusness: 如果我们看Isis的问题,为什么会这样?

(12:54 PM) Thusness: 为什么会有恐惧和恐慌?

(12:55 PM) Thusness: 心是什么?

(12:56 PM) AEN: 因为过去的经历对吧

(12:56 PM) AEN: 就像以前发生过什么事

(12:56 PM) AEN: 所以当他/她经历某些事情(比如狗)时

(12:57 PM) AEN: /她就会通过受制约的思维做出反应

(12:57 PM) AEN: 从而生起了恐惧

(12:57 PM) Thusness: 你这是在用逻辑推理

(12:57 PM) AEN: 这就像是习惯性的反应

(12:58 PM) AEN: 或者业力习气?

(12:58 PM) Thusness: 所有产生的经历都只有一个影响,它们会变成印记(imprints

(12:58 PM) AEN: 噢,懂了

(12:58 PM) Thusness: 所以,心是什么?

(12:58 PM) AEN: 印记和心理活动?

(12:58 PM) Thusness: 你必须去感受它

(12:59 PM) Thusness: 它不是一个实体……

(12:59 PM) Thusness: 它是一种倾向(tendency

(12:59 PM) Thusness: 那不是作为一个实体……你仍然有一种感觉,仿佛它是见证者Witness),是一个实体,因为你还无法感受到这个真相。

(1:00 PM) Thusness: 你能看出心是一种生起的倾向吗

(1:01 PM) AEN: 前几天打坐的时候,我突然有一种感觉,我的整个心只是生起的倾向,而且好像没有思考者

(1:01 PM) Thusness: 是的

(1:02 PM) Thusness: 你必须首先用你的整个生命去感受这个真相

(1:02 PM) Thusness: 就像Jeff Foster说的,只是一个生起的念头

(1:02 PM) AEN: 噢,懂了

(1:02 PM) Thusness: 不要太担心它是如何生起和如何消散的

(1:03 PM) Thusness: 目前,你必须看到如实的样子what is

(1:03 PM) Thusness: 一个念头生起,然后消散

(1:03 PM) Thusness: 然后是声音,然后消散

(1:03 PM) Thusness: 然后另一个念头生起

(1:04 PM) Thusness: 念头是什么?

(1:04 PM) AEN: 就是念头咯

(1:04 PM) AEN: 觉知(awareness)?

(1:04 PM) Thusness: 不对

(1:04 PM) AEN: 它就像一种现象,就像声音、视觉等等

(1:05 PM) AEN: 但是是不同种类的

(1:05 PM) Thusness: 很好

(1:05 PM) Thusness: 很好。 :)

(1:05 PM) Thusness: 哪种现象?

(1:05 PM) AEN: 不知道怎么描述咧

(1:05 PM) AEN: 心理现象?

(1:05 PM) Thusness: 哈哈……

(1:05 PM) Thusness: 是的,它像什么?

(1:06 PM) AEN: 回忆起的图像、心里的推理、在心中生起的?

(1:07 PM) Thusness: 是的

(1:07 PM) AEN: 文字,等等

(1:07 PM) Thusness: 但更重要的是,它是一种光明luminous)的现象

(1:07 PM) AEN: 噢噢……

(1:08 PM) Thusness: 一个生起的念头,然后另一个生起的念头

(1:08 PM) AEN: 噢,懂了……

(1:08 PM) Thusness: 每一个念头都是光明

(1:08 PM) Thusness: 首先你必须知道这一点

(1:08 PM) Thusness: 但是如果你是从所有过去的经验来看它,你到的就不一样了。

(1:09 PM) Thusness: 所看到的是一种永恒见证者Eternal Witness)般的体验。

(1:09 PM) Thusness: 不是吗?

(1:10 PM) AEN: 是啊

(1:10 PM) AEN: 而且有一种微妙的倾向(tendency),想把所有念头推开,而不是单纯地如实看待一切

(1:10 PM) AEN: 或者说

(1:10 PM) AEN: 试图成为背景的觉知

(1:10 PM) Thusness: 是的,那种推开的倾向,去关联到一个中心、一个源头

(1:10 PM) Thusness: 去成为一个容器,一个背景

(1:11 PM) Thusness: 你必须感受其中的区别

(1:11 PM) AEN: 噢噢……

(1:12 PM) Thusness: 这只是一种关联回源头的倾向,并拒绝当下的如是。

(1:13 PM) Thusness: 每一个念头的生起都带着根深蒂固的印记

(1:13 PM) Thusness: 那是具有遮蔽性

(1:13 PM) AEN: 噢,懂了……

(1:14 PM) AEN: 而那个永恒见证者就是关于什么是觉知、什么不是觉知的念头对吧,然后变成了一种倾向

(1:14 PM) AEN: 去沉回一个中心

(1:14 PM) Thusness: 是的

(1:14 PM) Thusness: 但首先你必须理解念头

(1:14 PM) AEN: 噢噢……

(1:15 PM) Thusness: 念头是光明的

(1:15 PM) Thusness: 一种光明的、生起的心理现象

(1:15 PM) AEN: 噢,懂了……

(1:15 PM) Thusness: 不是吗?

(1:16 PM) AEN: 是的

(1:16 PM) Thusness: 除此之外还有什么?难道不总是这样吗?

(1:16 PM) Thusness: “你只是一个生起的念头

(1:17 PM) Thusness: 一个当下的光明念头在向后看,在关联

(1:17 PM) Thusness: 在琢磨

(1:17 PM) Thusness: 在思维中,只有念头

(1:17 PM) AEN: 噢,懂了……

(1:17 PM) Thusness: 现在就着这首偈子打坐

(1:18 PM) Thusness: 在思维中,只有念头

(1:18 PM) Thusness: 在听闻中,只有声音

(1:18 PM) Thusness: 只有这两句就够了

(1:19 PM) AEN: 噢噢……

(1:21 PM) AEN: 所以每当念头、倾向生起时,我们就应该如实地体验那个念头

(1:21 PM) AEN: 体验它的光明

(1:21 PM) Thusness:

(1:22 PM) Thusness: 你必须先清楚地理解什么是无我(no-self

(1:23 PM) Thusness: 但先要知道什么是念头。

(1:23 PM) Thusness: 然后理解无我(anatta

(1:23 PM) AEN: 噢,懂了……

(1:31 PM) Thusness: “在思维中,没有思考者在思维中,只有念头,这两者有什么区别?

(1:31 PM) AEN: 念头的光明没有被彻底体验到,即使有关于无分裂的洞见?

(1:31 PM) AEN: 我不知道

(1:32 PM) Thusness: 等你明白了再告诉我。

(1:32 PM) Thusness: :P

(1:32 PM) AEN: 哈哈,好的

(1:35 PM) AEN: 在思维中,只有念头,是意味着每个念头都是离散(discrete)且完备的?

(1:35 PM) AEN: 没有连结

(1:37 PM) AEN: 在那之前,还有一个念头与另一个念头的链接?

(1:39 PM) Thusness: 好的……所以只有”……无论如何,你还没有理解无所依unsupported)、离散完备的真正精髓。

(1:40 PM) AEN: 噢噢……

(1:40 PM) Thusness: 就针对前两句打坐:在思维中,只有念头;在听闻中,只有声音

(1:40 PM) AEN:

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Soh

John Tan wrote to someone else:


I read the first paragraph, there are some concepts that need to be clarified and refined.  What is the difference in saying:


1.  Duality and non-duality are inherently inseparable.


2. Duality and non-duality originate dependently.


3. Duality and non-duality are non-arisen.



There is neither an inherent separation nor an inherent non-separation. “Separation” and “non-separation” are merely conventional designations that arise by dependence on contrasts and contexts.


The mind’s insistence that “there must be” either duality or non-duality (or their separation/non-separation) is precisely grasping at inherent existence; at best, these notions are conventionally valid.


What matters is not choosing a side, but understanding how the conventional works—dependent designation and functional distinctness—and how the ultimate is just the emptiness (unfindability, non-arising) of whatever is conventionally presented, not a second thing behind it.


Dzogchen’s pointing-out of luminous clarity liberates only when that luminosity is recognized as empty and non-reified; otherwise it becomes a subtle substance.

Soh

 对话记录 — 2009年2月11日

AEN: http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/2385161/Sharing+like+back+in+the+day... 期待听到讨论。

当自我变得越来越透明, 现象也变得越来越光明。 在彻底的透明中,一切发生都如实且生动地清晰。 一切显而易见,处处充满生机! 这一点刚才对我变得很明显。自我消失得越多,一切就越显现出它的清晰、自然和宽坦。但宽坦并不像虚无(void);越是宽坦,一切就越清晰。今天我虽然只睡了两个小时,却出奇地清醒。 对了,我在这个链接发了一些关于佛教和道教的内容:http://www.sgclub.com/singapore/difference_between_127679.html。是在我写了这些之后,我在网上搜索东西时发现了Zisirum博客。但我觉得我的帖子对那个人来说太复杂了。

Thusness:不要偏离我在论坛上写的道路。你所体验到的任何东西本来就是这样的;当你继续(那种偏离的修法)时,你只是在增强习气和无明。如果你现在无法跳脱出来,你认为你在不断强化你的习气之后还能跳脱出来吗?所有的行为都会留下习气。

AEN:我明白了。

Thusness:观察你的念头;看,是否有任何主宰者(agent)?真实地去体验它。如果你看到了,你自然就是不二的。

AEN:我明白了。

Thusness:那么,为什么需要绕一个大圈子,最后却落入所有错误的见解中呢?如果没有自我,你已经是原本最直接的……哪里还需要去“成为”不二?如果你不理解习气(propensities),你永远不知道它是如何蒙蔽你的。然而,即使有了无我(anatta)的见地,你仍然可能不理解缘起。如果你幸运的话,需要3到5年的时间来替换你那分裂的意识见解。如果你不幸的话,这可能需要生生世世。

AEN:我明白了。

Thusness:要拥有恒久的清明是非常困难的,你应该从现在开始。我不是轻视你的老师,但即使到了这个年纪,她也还没有达到那个境地。你认为你在修行上有像她那样的奉献和真诚吗?

AEN:没有。

Thusness:所以不要继续用错误的理解来增强你自己。相反,在拥有了见地之后,去修行以使这些见地在实际体验中得到印证。当你证悟无我(anatta)时,会有一段时期需要适应,以使你的见地与体验同步。做到这一点并不容易。然而这非常重要,因为我们不了解意识。除了不二和空性,你必须体验习气。而要拥有正确的理解,可能需要你一生的时间。

AEN:我明白了。

Thusness:如果你像吠檀多(Advaita)那样修行,你甚至不会谈论习气和倾向。你不知道就缘起而言什么是自然生起。你无法知道意图(intention)是什么。

AEN:我明白了。对了,你刚才看到我发的信息了吗?顺便问一下,你看到我早些时候的信息了吗?

Thusness:没有。

AEN:我不记得我发给你什么了,因为我是在学校发的。我问你的其中一件事是推荐什么书给 "Thevoice"。

Thusness:关于什么方面的?

AEN:他发给我一个吉尔·泰勒(Jill Bolte Taylor)视频的链接,然后问我是否知道有什么讲座。然后我发给他托妮·帕克(Toni Packer)的文章和Tejananda的文章,因为我觉得那更实用。我想他在找一些更实用的东西。我也告诉他可以找《澄清本然状态》(Clarifying the Natural State)这本书。但他也提到大手印对他来说太复杂了;他之前好像有一点那方面的经验还是什么的。对了,我也问了你——你上次提到Thevoice知道光明(luminosity)的面向……但他告诉我他好像不知道纯粹觉知(pure awareness)是什么意思,而且他以前从未体验过那个。但也许是增强的或扩展的觉知。我是指书。我告诉他可以买托妮·帕克的书。

Thusness:嗯。

AEN:?

Thusness:我说他把它当作个体性(individuality)来对待。他知道这个“我”,但是作为个体性。而不是作为纯粹觉知。我告诉过你,「我是」(I AM)有不同的阶段。意思是,他知道他不是身体。这不是那种永恒见证者(eternal witness)的体验。

AEN:这和见证者不同吗?

Thusness:不完全是见证者,而是他不仅仅是一个身体。就像灵体(spirit),但不是对“我”的直接体验。

AEN:不是对“我”的直接体验?你是什么意思?

Thusness:这就像你在论坛上发的帖子里描述的那样。那不是对永恒见证者的直接体验。那是推理(inferring)、关联、测试。但这个人知道他不是身体。模糊地知道觉知,但没有直接触及觉知。你知道吗,即使是在「我是」的层面,直接触及觉知也与所描述的完全不同?就像肯·威尔伯(Ken Wilber)所说的:超越怀疑的阴影。就像拉马克里希纳(Ramakrishna)所描述的那样。不是他说他像死了一样被抬走的那部分。那就像Thevoice正在体验的。而是对「我是」的直接体验。彻底的寂静,终极,没有念头。彻底的确信。拉马克里希纳在后期阶段谈到了那个——完全安住为真我(Self)。我是指拉玛那·马哈希(Ramana Maharshi)……

AEN:哦,哈哈。难怪,以前没怎么读过拉马克里希纳的东西。

Thusness:当他观想自己死了并被抬去烧掉时,他意识到他不是身体。那不是对「我是」的直接体验。

AEN:不是?

Thusness:是的,不是。那只是惊鸿一瞥。不是那种直接体验。那种体验就像禅师问公案一样——是那种体验。对“我”的直接证悟。找到了它。没有念头,没有推理,整体且完整。仅仅是那种体验安住在“我”中,而不是作为一切,并且空性(empty nature)未被看见。那种体验是正确的。

AEN:我明白了。正确的?

Thusness:是的。你读过我的“阶段四”吗?我说那个声音完全就像「我是」。

AEN:这和「我是」一样,但在声音等方面,对吧?哦,是的。

Thusness:这不像你对声音的体验。

AEN:你是什么意思?你是说这是完全不二的?

Thusness:不二是没​​有分离。程度有所不同。你觉得你是上帝吗?当一个人体验「我是」时,他觉得他是上帝。是那种体验。那种体验能是寻常的吗?

AEN:不。

Thusness:那是超越性的。

AEN:我明白了。刚才你在论坛上说这篇文章是推理而非直接体验。

Thusness:这就是为什么一个人会被引导去走上完善那个状态的旅程。比如你做这个,摇晃一下然后你意识到那个……就像它像一个屏幕……没有什么像那样的。你不能那样理解觉知。要么通过参究自我(self-enquiry)直接体验它,要么通过公案。不存在不确定这种事。

AEN:我明白了。 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6865032740128202927 — 第一次听到拉玛那的声音。不知道他会说英语。

Thusness:有几个拉玛那。

AEN:是拉玛那·马哈希。但也可能不是他。

Thusness:如果一个修行者能在无我中体验到像马哈希所体验到的真我(SELF),那么他就接近完全证悟了。

AEN:我明白了。你是说体验到无我的人可能体验不到拉玛那所体验的?两者都是必须的?

Thusness:这关乎彻底性。以及光明的深度和程度。对于不二的无我来说,要拥有那种临在感(presence),必须是完全不费力的。因为不同于专注式的修行模式,不二或无相、无径之径要求一个人完全不费力且自然(spontaneous),才能拥有彻底的不二光明。

AEN:我明白了。对了,对于拉玛那来说,那仍然是一种专注式的修行模式,对吧?比如安住在真我上。

Thusness:对我来说,是的。这个视频很好。但是不要……

AEN:不要?

Thusness:这是一个很好的视频。但不要把它发在论坛上。

AEN:哦,哈哈,我明白了。好的,我不会。

Thusness:如果一个人能拥有那种体验,然后进入不二,那是不同的。如果能体验到无我(anatta),那就更好了。

AEN:我明白了。你说“那是不同的”是什么意思?

Thusness:一个人可以体验不二,没有分离,但没有像「我是」那样的体验。所以他没有那种体验的“质地”。然而,如果一个修行者体验过那个「我是」,那么当不二的时候,他知道有这样一种体验,而且所有的体验实际上都是那样的。

AEN:我明白了。不二的体验会更深入吗?

Thusness:不。都是一样的。但在所有的显现中被发现,而不是作为一个阶段。我在《光明空性》(Luminous Emptiness)中写道,如果教授了光明和空性,但没有证悟到它就是大乐,那么一个人就没有证悟任何东西。但Chodpa说,不是说它没有意义,而只是路途中的一步。那么什么是大乐?

AEN:融入光明?清晰?我不知道。我有喜乐的体验,但不知道是不是你指的那个。

Thusness:其实是一种融入(absorption)。

AEN:是的,我注意到当有融入时会有喜乐。

Thusness:下次再谈那个。我想我会写关于无我的内容,这样你就不会把它和不二搞混了。无我是关于没有主宰者。清晰地看到没有主宰者。而且因为没有主宰者,它必须是直接的。

AEN:我明白了。意思是在声音中只有声音。

Thusness:它自然就是不二的。

AEN:我明白了。我刚才给你写了一些东西,不知道你收到了没有。http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/2385161/Sharing+like+back+in+the+day... 期待听到讨论。

当自我变得越来越透明, 现象也变得越来越光明。 在彻底的透明中,一切发生都如实且生动地清晰。 一切显而易见,处处充满生机! 这一点刚才对我变得很明显。自我消失得越多,一切就越显现出它的清晰、自然和宽坦……但宽坦并不像虚无……但越是宽坦,一切就越清晰……今天我虽然只睡了两个小时,却出奇地清醒。 对了,我在这个链接发了一些关于佛教和道教的内容:http://www.sgclub.com/singapore/difference_between_127679.html。是在我写了这些之后,我在网上搜索东西时发现了Zisirum博客。但我觉得我的帖子对那个人来说太复杂了。

Thusness:是的。我想要体验这种清晰。你必须睡觉。稍后进入无我。

AEN:我想我晚上睡了2个小时。

Thusness:你所体验的是不二。现在你必须修行无我和放下。你自然会体验到那种清晰。你必须理解无我和缘起也意味着习气。你总是在处理习气。然后等待体验成熟的正确因缘。

AEN:我明白了。