Self-Arising and Self-Liberating: A Conversation with John Tan in March 2006
Here's a nice conversation with John Tan twenty years ago. Time flies.
12 MARCH 2006
Soh: Hi. By the way, thevoice and paperflower came today, but thevoice left earlier because he was busy.
John: I see. :) Paperflower, don't know who...
Soh: The forummer who had a Chuang Tzu signature.
John: Nope, it was a book by Thomas Cleary. I see. Wrong window.
Soh: Huh, what Thomas Cleary? What book? :P
John: About meditation. :)
Do you like today's talk?
Soh: Yeah, but a little deep. Probably deeper than the previous talk, as in years back. So you like it?
John: A little over-emphasis, should have just let it be. :) I do like it pretty much.
Soh: Huh, what over-emphasis?
John: The aspect of the unspeakable. :)
Soh: Hmm, because fa wang fa is unspeakable, and in fact he is giving a discourse on fa wang fa. :P What do you mean by should just let it be?
John: What do you think is the essence of what he is trying to convey?
Soh: 'Wu si wu nian'? Emptiness? By the way, you said you like the part about Mahayana and Theravada, is it?
John: Did you hear the sound first?
Soh: Sorry, back. Oh, is it the did you hear the sound first or know first?
John: Yes.
Soh: I see.
John: Thusness is right at this moment, this moment before arising of thought and taking perception. The entire Fa (Dharma) that arises and subsides is always in its purest state. It is conditions and causes but absolutely pure. Remember I told you about there is no purest. Every state of moment is purest.
And this is awareness, before any formation of thoughts, extending to the 18 dhatus. All forms coming into contact arise and subside, pop in and out of thusness flow. But do not think that the awareness is separated with the phenomenon existence. :) This was not spoken. :)
Soh: So the 'small vehicle' practitioners separate them from phenomenon existence?
John: Hmm... not exactly... I don't stereotype. :) Just practice. :) You can shunk from that aspect. :P
Soh: Shunk?
John: Reject. :P
Soh: You mean the small vehicle and great vehicle?
John: Stereotyping them. :) Besides that, what that is taught is crucial. :) When he says now there is no-self... he is not kidding you know.
Soh: Which part?
John: During the last part, now there is no mind, no mind... etc. He is not kidding... it is only when we query... errr what he meant then problems arise. :) However because we are not used to being no thought, we cannot grasp what he meant. He said... right now, all of us without thought, without mind...
Soh: Then what about no self?
John: Then how can there be a self?
Soh: Yeah.
John: It is every time when a condition and cause arise, contact is made, perception arises almost immediately. That is the problem. Therefore the immediate Buddha nature is not known.
Do know that thoughts arise just like phenomenon existence. Like the yuan, it's a fa, a happening of thus. Do not arise another mind on top of it. Just like your heartbeat.
Soh: Not arise another mind as in?
John: Do not make it an imputed reality out of Fa.
Soh: Not have another thought to stop it?
John: Yes... that is Awareness at that moment, the raw Thus of arising. But it is no different from Pure Awareness, when we do not impute reality, there is no difference, no separation and no line drawn between inner and outer.
Existence will continue to arise. The earth will spin. Everything is no different from this moment of heartbeat. :) This is pure awareness without self. The purity of Fa... arising in its naturalness.
Did you get to meet thevoice and paperflower?
Soh: Yeah. Thevoice was sitting beside me for about an hour. Paperflower I only saw and talked to for a while.
John: They might not like it. :)
Soh: Actually I met thevoice before previously. He talked to my dharma teacher for a private session. Why?
John: I see. That was how long ago?
Soh: Many months ago. Why don't they like it?
John: Don't know... :P You have to ask them. :)
Soh: But you said so, must have a reason, right?
John: Anyway... how do they find the speech?
Soh: Quite good. Why?
John: Then it is good. :) There is another important aspect. When he said thought arises, when you see it, what happened?
Soh: Hmm can't remember. As in you are aware of the thought arising? Hmm, don't know.
John: The tree and the bird, what did he say?
Soh: Oh. He said those who have lots of thoughts then they will grasp on the moving of the bird and neglect the tree?
John: Then?
Soh: Don't know.
John: Knock your head... yuan qi (arising due to conditions) :P Thought that arises must be seen that way too.
Soh: Oh, okay.
John: Then you can 1 fa guan tong (penetrate all with one dharma). :) But having known the fa (dharma), you must know the luminosity, clarity and presence at the same time. Emptiness, luminosity, clarity and presence.
Soh: I see.
13 MARCH 2006
John: By the way, nub is who eh? I mean anyone I spoke to before?
Soh:
"John: and always care about what I attained.
John: nub also."
Years back. You talked to him many times before.
John: Huh?
Soh: Wait.
John: Many times before, eh... :P
Soh: About one year ago:
"Nub: John!!!! How can I ever get to your level!!!
John: Seriously I am nowhere what you think. :) Not to speculate too much.
Nub: What is 'intuitively factored' that Longchen said? Did you just read my mind!! Can you see me laughing to myself now!!
John: I hope I can but I can't. :) I can even know 'afterward'.
Nub: What afterward?
John: The next moment whether I am still around. :) Nice chat. :)
Nub: People from this channel always beat people from elsewhere.
John returns to work"
John: I see. What was his question just now?
Soh: Huh, where?
John: In the channel?
Soh: Some weird and lame question. :P
"ah_bui: John are you there, why is my head crooked, are you enlightened?"
John: Yeah. :P :)
14 MARCH 2006
Soh:
"Soh: So is the taste awareness?
TheVoice: It is an experience.
Soh: And what is thought?
TheVoice: Tasting is an experience, and taste is a memory. It is merely the awareness of what could be and may not be. Thought - that is.
Soh: So do you think awareness is a party behind thinking thought or experiencing taste?
TheVoice: Yes.
Soh: Sorry I can't see the words.
TheVoice: Yes. But awareness and thinking are 2 very separate things. Thinking occurs when there is an ego. Awareness is the source of all things. Non-awareness is the source of nothings."
John: What initiated this conversation?
Soh: Me.
John: Why taste awareness? Why ask about taste awareness?
Soh: Actually I asked the same things you asked me.
"Soh: Hi, let me ask you... what is your understanding of awareness?
TheVoice: My understanding of awareness is the awareness of phenomenon.
Soh: Okay. Then when thought arises, is thought awareness? There?
TheVoice: No, thought is not awareness.
Soh: Then what is thought, and where is awareness? Same as taste.. is the taste awareness?
TheVoice: Awareness exists not within yourself. Yes, there is taste. Awareness that is in existence within yourself is termed as experience."
John: Okay. :) What then is emptiness?
Soh: Conditioned arising?
John: In terms of tasting.
Soh: Meaning the taste is ungraspable?
John: There is also this depth of experience on the 2 aspects of reality. From both luminosity and emptiness. Tastinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggggggggg in its minutest moment, the sensation and sensitivity. :) The degree of clarity in its minutest moment of arising.
Luminosity is clarity presence, but it is also in appearance and dreamlike. Emptiness is the dreamlike fleeting nature. The 2 are inseparable. Clarity and presence and emptiness must become one thusness flow, one spontaneous-self-arising-purity.
If this is not experienced, then it is not true pure presence emptiness. Emptiness without self and still clarity presence, what is this? It is this self-so-spontaneous-flow that is originally pure and self-liberating. It is we because we impute labels and conceptual ideas onto the flow that confuses us.
A thought moment arises, it is already self-liberating. But it must not be labelled and chased after. Tasting, touching... etc., all is self-liberating and self-arising. Hearing must be in its clearest state without self. Then self-spontaneous arising can be understood.
The key is to understand its nature. Not to stop it. :) The will and effort to stop is the problem, but the capacity to see all arising is self-arising and liberating is wisdom. But first clarity presence, then emptiness nature. Luminosity + emptiness = thusness flow.
If one experiences clarity and emptiness but the thusness flow is not experienced in full clarity, it is because of 'Self', because of fetters. :) In Vajrayana, they call this the third turning of the wheel.
Soh: What's the difference from the second turning?
John: Second is emptiness.
Soh: But I thought you said people usually experience luminosity first before understanding emptiness.
John: My experience and most of the people I've seen. But if one were to go through the proper training of Buddhism, it should be as defined.
Soh: I see. First turning is what?
John: 4 Noble Truths.
Soh: TheVoice seems to say that awareness is separated from phenomenon, right?
John: Yes. :) I am quite impressed by Master Chen. :) Though comical. :P Unfortunately clarity presence is not explored. :) My opinion is best follow Buddha... step by step. :) Though it is not wrong, it doesn't serve much purpose, for those that know, they know not through teaching and speech.
Soh: Not wrong to what?
John: To talk about the self-arising nature. And this cannot be taught, can only be experienced. :) I wrote in the forum about Tao. Tao in its self-so, is called Thus. This Self-So penetrates heaven and earth, cannot be named or defined. :)
But the systematic approach isn't taught. First experience the clarity presence and no-self emptiness truth. Step by step... if the mind rests itself upon nothing as a result of understanding emptiness, emptiness does not permit centricity. There is no place to stay put.
No self is permitted in this tathagata arising. But if there is no clarity and luminosity then all phenomenon existence will not be experienced as the non-arising consciousness. We must come to this experience of all is Consciousness in terms of Luminosity. All phenomenon existence is Consciousness, but pops in and out of existence; this is its emptiness nature.
But when these 2 aspects are understood as a whole, it becomes the one Thusness flow. That is self-liberating, abiding, pure, luminous and bliss. In all moments and every arising is just so. This is the ultimate nature.
When we fully understood this, we are true yogis. :) We do not stop anything or reject anything. Emotion, thought... etc., all formation just arises and subsides. We see this nature and don't 攀缘 (cling to conditions).
But this cannot be taught. :) It can only come in its own course. Whether Buddha or sentient being, when a bell sounds, it's sounding according to condition arising. The sounding soundsssssssssss. Always so.
Doesn't need Buddha to be here or there, or whether we are enlightened or not. There is arising. But with ignorance we impute labels and extra things onto it, so its nature and reality are not seen and experienced. :)
When you begin to be natural, ordinary, simple, pure and undefined, the relationship becomes clear. The sun, earth, heartbeat, sound, thought, becomes one flow. :)
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