A Peak Experience of No Mind vs the Realization of Anatta / The Dharma Seal of Always Already No-Mind
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Soh Wei Yu

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A Peak Experience of No Mind vs the Realization of Anatta / The Dharma Seal of Always Already No-Mind
 
 
Something I wrote about four years ago:
 
 
...It is easy induce a state of no-mind experience -- for example there are many stories about Zen masters giving a completely unexpected blow, a shout, a pinch on your nose out of a sudden, and in that moment of pain and shock, all sense of self and indeed all concepts are completely forgotten and only the vivid pain remains. This can induce what we call an experience of no-mind (a peak experience of no-self/no-subject) but should not be mistaken as the realization of anatta. However, anatta realization is what makes no-mind into an effortless natural state. Most of those teachers who have access to nondual experience that I’ve seen only express a state of no-mind but not the realization of anatta. As mentioned earlier, this topic is discussed further in No Mind and Anatta, Focusing on Insight and the fourth point of Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives. Hence, until the 7 phases are realized and actualized, the map is still very useful.
 
 
Thusness also wrote many years ago commenting on someone discussing Dzogchen practice as the realization of the luminous essence and integrating it into all experience and activities, "I understand what he meant and but the way it is taught (Soh: i.e. discussed by the person) is misleading. It is simply non-dual experience and experiencing presence in both the foreground and background and in the 3 states (Soh: waking, dreaming, dreamless deep sleep). That is not realizing our true empty nature but our luminous essence... ...understand the difference between luminosity and empty nature (Soh: luminosity here refers to the aspect of Presence-Awareness, and emptiness refers to the lack of intrinsic existence or essence of Presence/Self/Phenomena)... ...Very often, people rely on the experience and not true realization of the view. The right view (Soh: of anatta (no-self), dependent origination and emptiness) is like a neutralizer that neutralizes dualistic and inherent views; by itself, there is nothing to hold. So realize what right view is pointing and all experiences will come naturally. The right enlightenment experience is like what (Zen Master) Dogen described, not merely a non-dual state where experiencer and what's experienced collapses into a non-dual stream of experience. This I have told you clearly."
 
 
Lastly, I'll end with something Thusness wrote in 2012, "You cannot talk about emptiness and liberation without talking about awareness. Instead understand the empty nature of awareness and see awareness as this single activity of manifestation. I do not see practice apart from realizing the essence and nature of awareness. The only difference is seeing Awareness as an ultimate essence or realizing awareness as this seamless activity that fills the entire Universe. When we say there is no scent of a flower, the scent is the flower.... that is because the mind, body, universe are all together deconstructed into this single flow, this scent and only this... Nothing else. That is the Mind that is no mind. There is not an Ultimate Mind that transcends anything in the Buddhist enlightenment. The mind Is this very manifestation of total exertion... wholly thus. Therefore there is always no mind, always only this vibration of moving train, this cooling air of the air-con, this breath... The question is after the 7 phases of insights can this be realized and experienced and becomes the ongoing activity of practice in enlightenment and enlightenment in practice -- practice-enlightenment."...
 
 

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Soh Wei Yu
For those that already has experiences of no-mind (glimpses of the dissolution of all subject/object and self/Self) into the direct experience of luminous manifestation and activities, the realization of anatta will be precious and crucial for further breakthrough into the effortless and natural state.
But we can't just practice and from a state of no-mind trigger insight of anatta as a seal [the realization that anatta is a truth that is always already the case]. It needs pointers, it needs contemplation, specific contemplation aimed at investigating and seeing through the inherentness of Mind or Self.
Such as the two stanzas of anatta ( https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../on-anatta... ) and Bahiya Sutta.
On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
Soh Wei Yu
It must result in the realization of Bodhidharma and his student -- the realization that there never was a Mind!
This realization:
"If one accepts that there is no mind, it must follow that there is no seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing. Say: how can there be any seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing [without mind]?"
"Though I have no mind, I can ver well [1269b] see and hear and feel and know."
...
"But how could one [even] gain the ability to know that it is no-mind [that sees, hears, feels, and knows]?"
"Just try to find out in every detail: What appearance does mind have? And if it can be apprehended: is [what is apprehended] mind or not? Is [mind] inside or outside, or somewhere in between? As long as one looks for mind in these three locations, one's search will end in failure. Indeed, searching it anywhere will end in failure. That's exactly why it is known as no-mind."
...
"Just be totally aware in all affairs! No-mind is nothing other than practice; there is no other practice. Thus you'll realize that no-mind is everything, and that extinction (nirvana) is nothing other than no-mind."
12
At this, the disciple all at once greatly awakened and realized for the first time that there is no thing apart from mind, and no mind apart from things. All of his actions became utterly free. Having broken through the net of all doubt, he was freed of all obstruction.
...
14
The Reverend then told him: "Among all forms of wisdom, I regard the wisdom of no-mind as the highest. Thus the Vimalakirti sutra says: "Neither having a conscious mind nor mental impressions and processes, he sees through the ignorant and submits those of different creed." Again, the Sutra of the Great Dharma Drum states, "If you know that there is no mind that can be attained, no objects whatsoever are grasped; neither are sincs and meritorious activities, nor life-and-death and nirvana. Indeed, nothing at all can be grasped - not-grasping included!"
15
Then [the disciple again] produces a verse:
In the past, when I was deluded, I held that there is a mind;
But now that I am awakened, there's no mind, that's all!
Though there is no mind, it perceives and is active;
Its perception and activity ever calm, it is pure suchness.
16
And he added:
No mind, no perception, and no activity at all -
No perception, no activity: that's wuwei.
This is the genuine Dharma-realm of the Tathagata,
Different from that of bodhisattvas and pratyeka buddhas.
...
Seeing with insight, form is not simply form, because form depends on mind. And, mind is not simply mind, because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. … Mind and the world are opposites, appearances arise where they meet. When your mind does not stir inside, the world does not arise outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is the true insight.” (from the Wakeup Discourse)
....
With the condition of eyes, forms are seen, With the condition of ears, sounds are heard, With the condition of nose, smells are smelled, With the condition of tongue, tastes are tasted, every movement or states are all one's Mind.
Soh Wei Yu
"there is no thing [phenomena] apart from mind, and no mind apart from thing[s] [phenomena]"
Soh Wei Yu
Or as 3rd Karmapa also succinctly put it:
All phenomena are illusory displays of mind.
Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind
Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded,
manifesting as everything whatsoever.
Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut.
Naturally manifesting appearances, that never truly exist, are confused into objects. Spontaneous intelligence, under the power of ignorance, is confused into a self.
By the power of this dualistic fixation, beings wander in the realms of samsaric existence.
May ignorance, the root of confusion, he discovered and cut.
It is not existent--even the Victorious Ones do not see it.
It is not nonexistent--it is the basis of all samsara and nirvana.
This is not a contradiction, but the middle path of unity.
....
Looking at objects, the mind devoid of objects is seen;
Looking at mind, its empty nature devoid of mind is seen;
Looking at both of these, dualistic clinging is self-liberated.
May the nature of mind, the clear light nature of what is, be realised.
Wishing Prayer for the Attainment of the Ultimate Mahamudra
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Wishing Prayer for the Attainment of the Ultimate Mahamudra
Wishing Prayer for the Attainment of the Ultimate Mahamudra
Soh Wei Yu
Or as Arya Nagarjuna puts it,
“The cognizer perceives the cognizable;
Without the cognizable there is no cognition;
Therefore why do you not admit
That neither object nor subject exists [at all]?
The mind is but a mere name;
Apart from it's name it exists as nothing;
So view consciousness as a mere name;
Name too has no intrinsic nature.
Either within or likewise without,
Or somewhere in between the two,
The conquerors have never found the mind;
So the mind has the nature of an illusion.
The distinctions of colors and shapes,
Or that of object and subject,
Of male, female and the neuter -
The mind has no such fixed forms.
In brief the Buddhas have never seen
Nor will they ever see [such a mind];
So how can they see it as intrinsic nature
That which is devoid of intrinsic nature?
"Entity" is a conceptualization;
Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;
Where conceptualization occurs,
How can there be emptiness?
The mind in terms of perceived and perceiver,
This the Tathagatas have never seen;
Where there is the perceived and perceiver,
There is no enlightenment.
Devoid of characteristics and origination,
Devoid of substantiative reality and transcending speech,
Space, awakening mind and enlightenment
Possess the characteristics of non-duality.”
- Nagarjuna, Bodhicittavivarana
I recently did a Chinese translation for the text above: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../some-chinese...
翻译： “知者感知可知【的事物】；
没有可知【的事物】，就没有知；
所以你为什么不承认
既不存在所（对相）也不存在能（主体）？
心只是一个名字；
除了它的名字，它不存在于任何东西；
因此，将识视为一个名称；
名也无自性。
无论是在内还是在外，
或者介于两者之间，
一切耆那 （意译为情欲的战胜者，即圣人）从未找到心；
所以心有幻相的本性。
颜色和形状的区别，
或者客体与主体的区别，
男性、女性和中性的——
心没有这种固定的形式。
简而言之，佛陀从未见过
他们也永远不会看到【这样的心】；
那么他们怎么能把它看作是有自性
那没有自性【的心】？
“实体”是一种概念化；
没有概念化是空；
在发生概念化处，
怎么会有空？
在知和知者方面的心，
这是如来从未见过的；
哪里有被知和知者，
就没有开悟。
无相也无生，
无实体的存在，也超越言语，
虚空、菩提心【觉醒心】与觉悟
具有不二的特性。”
- 龙树菩萨，《菩提心论》(Bodhicittavivarana)
Some Chinese Translations by Me
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Some Chinese Translations by Me
Some Chinese Translations by Me
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    And also succinctly explained by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh and many other masters: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../sun-of...
    Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
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    Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
    Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
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          Soh Wei Yu
          One more quote by John Tan,
          "The purpose of anatta is to have full blown experience of the heart -- boundlessly, completely, non-dually and non-locally. Re-read what I wrote to Jax.
          In every situations, in all conditions, in all events. It is to eliminate unnecessary contrivity so that our essence can be expressed without obscuration.
          Jax wants to point to the heart but is unable to express in a non-dual way... for in duality, the essence cannot be realized. All dualistic interpretation are mind made. You know the smile of Mahākāśyapa? Can you touch the heart of that smile even 2500 yrs later?
          One must lose all mind and body by feeling with entire mind and body this essence which is 心 (Mind). Yet 心 (Mind) too is 不可得 (ungraspable/unobtainable).. The purpose is not to deny 心 (Mind) but rather not to place any limitations or duality so that 心 (Mind) can fully manifest.
          Therefore without understanding 缘 (conditions)，is to limit 心 (Mind). without understanding 缘 (conditions)，is to place limitation in its manifestations. You must fully experience 心 (Mind) by realizing 无心 (No-Mind) and fully embrace the wisdom of 不可得 (ungraspable/unobtainable)." - John Tan/Thusness, 2014
          The Transient Universe has a Heart
          AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
          The Transient Universe has a Heart
          The Transient Universe has a Heart

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          Sangye Gyatso
          its not no-mind its called: Mushin Noshin mind without mind.


          • Soh Wei Yu
          It is no mind.
          无心 no mind 论 doctrine


          • Sangye Gyatso
          無心之心

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          • Soh Wei Yu
          But that is not Bodhidharma said. I am just reporting what Bodhidharma said here: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-doctrine-of-no...
          To Bodhidharma, there is no true existence of Mind.
          His teaching on this is well explained by Dzogchen teacher Abhaya Devi Yogini here: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/04/way-of-bodhi.html
          The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
          AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
          The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
          The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）

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          • Sangye Gyatso
          cutting attachment to body and the human thought process is important, but also its not about discarding body, but about integrating the experience with shunyata, because this is a very precious human birth, and so we have to be careful not to discard it, but to integrate it with shunyata.
          this is why we have the 3 great blendings of Awareness, Clarity & Wisdom. so we integrate buddha nature with all experience, and in this way we see pure vision within all experience. ;; then we cut the grasping to experience at the root.. this is incredibly important.
          i find that many are too quick to fall into nihilism and forget about this precious human birth, and the purpose of enlightenment to be of benefit to all mother sentient beings as the buddha's rise from the needs of sentient beings from the heart-mind stream of sentient beings, to me the above points are the most critical
          in attempting to discard this body and discard mind, we fall into nihilism and end up not working for the benefit of beings.. this is largely because our society is extremely nihilistic to begin with (capitalist society etc..) ;; we also have to look at the perspective of the death process. to grasp at experience is the same as grasping at the substantial body. so at the time of death one grasps at experience to try to find body, but the mind does not 'remember' within the bardo, the mind is manifest, so when we manifest experience, we manifest the bardo of becoming. ;; so when we blend experience with shunyata we do not grasp at experience, thus cutting the ordinary rebirth proccess. but the Bodhisattva vow initiates the bardo of becoming slightly differently, in which we gain choices. this is important as we work for the benefit of all mother beings.
          look up how many zen practitioners fall into nihilism and commit suicide. 'zen sickness' ;; they find voidness where there is nothing then see no purpose and no point, this can happen with some of the tibetan practices too, one or two dzogchen practices carries this risk. (i wont mention which practices specifically) but its incredibly important that we work with love and not just determination. we have to really respect this interdependent relationship of being and work for the benefit of all beings, keeping close to the middle way.
          i like to think of it in terms of the bodhisattva is like a bow with a string, one end is enlightnement, and the other end is this precious human birth and its strung with bodhicitta/samaya.


          • Jayson MPaul
          Sangye Gyatso none of these things are about nihilism, although that is a real danger for those who misunderstand emptiness. No Mind is what is always already true. It has no existence of its own. No mind apart from phenomena, no phenomena apart from mind. This is what Soh Wei Yu meant when he said there is no true existence of mind.


          • Soh Wei Yu
          You are not understanding the meaning of no mind and emptiness.
          Excerpt:
          2007:
          (3:55 PM) Thusness: it is not to deny the existence of the luminosity
          (3:55 PM) Thusness: the knowingness
          (3:55 PM) Thusness: but rather to have the correct view of what consciousness is.
          (3:56 PM) Thusness: like non-dual
          (3:56 PM) Thusness: i said there is no witness apart from the manifestation, the witness is really the manifestation
          (3:56 PM) Thusness: this is the first part
          (3:56 PM) Thusness: since the witness is the manifestation, how is it so?
          (3:57 PM) Thusness: how is the one is really the many?
          (3:57 PM) AEN: conditions?
          (3:57 PM) Thusness: saying that the one is the many is already wrong.
          (3:57 PM) Thusness: this is using conventional way of expression.
          (3:57 PM) Thusness: for in reality, there is no such thing of the 'one'
          (3:57 PM) Thusness: and the many
          (3:58 PM) Thusness: there is only arising and ceasing due to emptiness nature
          (3:58 PM) Thusness: and the arising and ceasing itself is the clarity.
          (3:58 PM) Thusness: there is no clarity apart from the phenomena
          (4:00 PM) Thusness: if we experience non-dual like ken wilber and talk about the atman.
          (4:00 PM) Thusness: though the experience is true, the understanding is wrong.
          (4:00 PM) Thusness: this is similar to "I AM".
          (4:00 PM) Thusness: except that it is higher form of experience.
          (4:00 PM) Thusness: it is non-dual.
          Session Start: Sunday, October 19, 2008
          (1:01 PM) Thusness: Yes
          (1:01 PM) Thusness: Actually practice is not to deny this 'Jue' (awareness)
          (6:11 PM) Thusness: the way u explained as if 'there is no Awareness'.
          (6:11 PM) Thusness: People at times mistaken what u r trying to convey.but to correctly understand this 'jue' so that it can be experienced from all moments effortlessly.
          (1:01 PM) Thusness: But when a practitioner heard that it is not 'IT', they immediately began to worry because it is their most precious state.
          (1:01 PM) Thusness: All the phases written is about this 'Jue' or Awareness.
          (1:01 PM) Thusness: However what Awareness really is isn't correctly experienced.
          (1:01 PM) Thusness: Because it isn't correctly experienced, we say that 'Awareness that u try to keep' does not exist in such a way.
          (1:01 PM) Thusness: It does not mean there is no Awareness.
          2010:
          (12:02 AM) Thusness: it is not that there is no awareness
          (12:02 AM) Thusness: it is understanding awareness not from a subject/object view
          (12:02 AM) Thusness: not from an inherent view
          (12:03 AM) Thusness: that is dissolving subject/object understanding into events, action, karma
          (12:04 AM) Thusness: then we gradually understand that the 'feeling' of someone there is really just a 'sensation' of an inherent view
          (12:04 AM) Thusness: means a 'sensation', a 'thought'
          of
          an
          inherent view
          😛
          (12:06 AM) Thusness: how this lead to liberation requires the direct experience
          (12:06 AM) Thusness: so liberation it is not freedom from 'self' but freedom from 'inherent view'
          (12:07 AM) AEN: icic..
          (12:07 AM) Thusness: get it?
          (12:07 AM) Thusness: but it is important to experience luminosity
          Session Start: Saturday, 27 March, 2010
          (9:54 PM) Thusness: Not bad for self-enquiry
          (9:55 PM) AEN: icic..
          btw what do u think lucky and chandrakirti is trying to convey
          (9:56 PM) Thusness: those quotes weren't really well translated in my opinion.
          (9:57 PM) Thusness: what needs be understood is 'No I' is not to deny Witnessing consciousness.
          (9:58 PM) Thusness: and 'No Phenomena' is not to deny Phenomena
          (9:59 PM) Thusness: It is just for the purpose of 'de-constructing' the mental constructs.
          (10:00 PM) AEN: oic..
          (10:01 PM) Thusness: when u hear sound, u cannot deny it...can u?
          (10:01 PM) AEN: ya
          (10:01 PM) Thusness: so what r u denying?
          (10:02 PM) Thusness: when u experience the Witness as u described in ur thread 'certainty of being', how can u deny this realization?
          (10:03 PM) Thusness: so what is does 'no I' and 'no phenomena' mean?
          (10:03 PM) AEN: like u said its only mental constructs that are false... but consciousness cant be denied ?
          (10:03 PM) Thusness: no...i am not saying that
          Buddha never deny the aggregates
          (10:04 PM) Thusness: just the selfhood
          (10:04 PM) Thusness: the problem is what is meant by 'non-inherent', empty nature, of phenomena and 'I'
          No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness
          AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
          No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness
          No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness

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          • Soh Wei Yu
          2010:
          (11:15 PM) Thusness: but understanding it wrongly is another matter
          can u deny Witnessing?
          (11:16 PM) Thusness: can u deny that certainty of being?
          (11:16 PM) AEN: no
          (11:16 PM) Thusness: then there is nothing wrong with it
          how could u deny ur very own existence?
          (11:17 PM) Thusness: how could u deny existence at all
          (11:17 PM) Thusness: there is nothing wrong experiencing directly without intermediary the pure sense of existence
          (11:18 PM) Thusness: after this direct experience, u should refine ur understanding, ur view, ur insights
          (11:19 PM) Thusness: not after the experience, deviate from the right view, re-enforce ur wrong view
          (11:19 PM) Thusness: u do not deny the witness, u refine ur insight of it
          what is meant by non-dual
          (11:19 PM) Thusness: what is meant by non-conceptual
          what is being spontaneous
          what is the 'impersonality' aspect
          (11:20 PM) Thusness: what is luminosity.
          (11:20 PM) Thusness: u never experience anything unchanging
          (11:21 PM) Thusness: in later phase, when u experience non-dual, there is still this tendency to focus on a background... and that will prevent ur progress into the direct insight into the TATA as described in the tata article.
          (11:22 PM) Thusness: and there are still different degree of intensity even u realized to that level.
          (11:23 PM) AEN: non dual?
          (11:23 PM) Thusness: tada (an article) is more than non-dual...it is phase 5-7
          (11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
          (11:24 PM) Thusness: it is all about the integration of the insight of anatta and emptiness
          (11:25 PM) Thusness: vividness into transience, feeling what i called 'the texture and fabric' of Awareness as forms is very important
          then come emptiness
          (11:26 PM) Thusness: the integration of luminosity and emptiness
          (10:45 PM) Thusness: do not deny that Witnessing but refine the view, that is very important
          (10:46 PM) Thusness: so far, u have correctly emphasized the importance of witnessing
          (10:46 PM) Thusness: unlike in the past, u gave ppl the impression that u r denying this witnessing presence
          (10:46 PM) Thusness: u merely deny the personification, reification and objectification
          (10:47 PM) Thusness: so that u can progress further and realize our empty nature.
          but don't always post what i told u in msn
          (10:48 PM) Thusness: in no time, i will become sort of cult leader
          (10:48 PM) AEN: oic.. lol
          (10:49 PM) Thusness: anatta is no ordinary insight. When we can reach the level of thorough transparency, u will realize the benefits
          (10:50 PM) Thusness: non-conceptuality, clarity, luminosity, transparency, openness, spaciousness, thoughtlessness, non-locality...all these descriptions become quite meaningless.
          2009:
          (7:39 PM) Thusness: it is always witnessing...don't get it wrong
          just whether one understand its emptiness nature or not.
          (7:39 PM) Thusness: there is always luminosity
          since when there is no witnessing?
          (7:39 PM) Thusness: it is just luminosity and emptiness nature
          not luminosity alone
          (9:59 PM) Thusness: there is always this witnessing...it is the divided sense that u have to get rid
          (9:59 PM) Thusness: that is why i never deny the witness experience and realization, just the right understanding
          2008:
          (2:58 PM) Thusness: There is no problem being the witness, the problem is only wrong understanding of what witness is.
          (2:58 PM) Thusness: That is seeing duality in Witnessing.
          (2:58 PM) Thusness: or seeing 'Self' and other, subject-object division. That is the problem.
          (2:59 PM) Thusness: U can call it Witnessing or Awareness, there must be no sense of self.
          (11:21 PM) Thusness: yes witnessing
          not witness
          (11:22 PM) Thusness: in witnessing, it is always non-dual
          (11:22 PM) Thusness: when in witness, it is always a witness and object being witness
          when there is an observer, there is no such thing as no observed
          (11:23 PM) Thusness: when u realised that there is only witnessing, there is no observer and observed
          it is always non-dual
          (11:24 PM) Thusness: that is why when genpo something said there is no witness only witnessing, yet taught the staying back and observed
          (11:24 PM) Thusness: i commented the path deviates from the view
          (11:25 PM) AEN: oic..
          (11:25 PM) Thusness: when u teach experience the witness, u teach that
          that is not about no subject-object split
          u r teaching one to experience that witness
          (11:26 PM) Thusness: first stage of insight of the "I AM"
          2008:
          (2:52 PM) Thusness: r u denying the "I AMness" experience?
          (2:54 PM) AEN: u mean in the post?
          (2:54 PM) AEN: no
          (2:54 PM) AEN: its more like the nature of 'i am' rite
          (2:54 PM) Thusness: what is being denied?
          (2:54 PM) AEN: the dualistic understanding?
          (2:55 PM) Thusness: yes it is the wrong understanding of that experience. Just like 'redness' of a flower.


          • Soh Wei Yu
          (2:55 PM) AEN: oic..
          (2:55 PM) Thusness: Vivid and seems real and belongs to the flower. It only appears so, it is not so.
          (2:57 PM) Thusness: When we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there is thoughts, no thinker. There is sound, no hearer and there is rebirth, but no permanent soul being reborn.
          (2:58 PM) Thusness: It is puzzling because of our deeply held view of seeing things inherently where dualism is a subset of this 'inherent' seeing.
          (2:59 PM) Thusness: So what is the problem?
          (2:59 PM) AEN: icic..
          (2:59 PM) AEN: the deeply held views?
          (2:59 PM) Thusness: yeah
          (2:59 PM) Thusness: what is the problem?
          (3:01 PM) AEN: back
          (3:02 PM) Thusness: The problem is the root cause of suffering lies in this deeply held view. We search and are attached because these views. This is the relationship between 'view' and 'consciousness'. There is no escape. With inherent view, there is always 'I' and 'Mine'. There is always 'belongs' like the 'redness' belongs to the flower.
          (3:02 PM) Thusness: Therefore despite all transcendental experiences, there is no liberation without right understanding.


          • Soh Wei Yu
          “Geovani Geo to me, to be without dual is not to subsume into one and although awareness is negated, it is not to say there is nothing.
          Negating the Awareness/Presence (Absolute) is not to let Awareness remain at the abstract level. When such transpersonal Awareness that exists only in wonderland is negated, the vivid radiance of presence are fully tasted in the transient appearances; zero gap and zero distance between presence and moment to moment of ordinary experiences and we realize separation has always only been conventional.
          Then mundane activities -- hearing, sitting, standing, seeing and sensing, become pristine and vibrant, natural and free.” – John Tan, 2020


          • Soh Wei Yu
          Jayson MPaul summarised well above


          • Sangye Gyatso
          thanks, i wont have you telling me what i understand and dont understand,. ive stated all im going to state here. so many words for something so simple.
          perhaps you dont understand what i said,.. i'lll stick to dzogchen and the middle way (bodhisattva/mahasattva/samayasattva way)

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            • Soh Wei Yu
            Sangye Gyatso What I said is just precisely what the founder of Zen in China, Bodhidharma, have said:
            "If one accepts that there is no mind, it must follow that there is no seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing. Say: how can there be any seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing [without mind]?"
            "Though I have no mind, I can ver well [1269b] see and hear and feel and know."
            ...
            12
            At this, the disciple all at once greatly awakened and realized for the first time that there is no thing apart from mind, and no mind apart from things. All of his actions became utterly free. Having broken through the net of all doubt, he was freed of all obstruction.
            ...
            Seeing with insight, form is not simply form, because form depends on mind. And, mind is not simply mind, because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. … Mind and the world are opposites, appearances arise where they meet. When your mind does not stir inside, the world does not arise outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is the true insight.” (from the Wakeup Discourse)
            The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
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            The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
            The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）

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            • Soh Wei Yu
            Sangye Gyatso It is also what Dzogchen teachers Prabodha and Abhaya Devi Jnana have said in the link above, excerpt:
            "It is not only about recognizing the reflections as reflections, but also recognizing that there is no mirror (no mind)!"
            Also what Dzogchen tantras have said,
            “Hey, hey, apparent yet nonexistent retinue: listen well! There is no object to distinguish in me, the view of self-originated wisdom; it did not exist before, it will not arise later, and also does not appear in anyway in the present. The path does not exist, action does not exist, traces do not exist, ignorance does not exist, thoughts do not exist, mind does not exist, prajñā does not exist, samsara does not exist, nirvana does not exist, vidyā (rigpa) itself does not even exist, totally not appearing in anyway.”
            -- Unwritten Tantra
            What Longchenpa have said,
            Longchenpa:
            From
            the [ultimate] perspective the meditative equipoise of the realised (sa
            thob) and awakened beings (sangs rgyas), there exists neither object of
            knowledge (shes bya) nor knowing cognitive process (shes byed) and so
            forth, for there is neither object to apprehend nor the subject that
            does the apprehending. Even the exalted cognitive process (yeshes) as a
            subject ceases (zhi ba) to operate.
            ....
            To longchenpa self-awareness "is simply a vivid
            auto-manifestation, a process lacking any reality whatsoever".
            Totally consistent with the insight of No Mind and Anatta
            Way of Bodhi
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            Way of Bodhi
            Way of Bodhi

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            • Sangye Gyatso
            Soh Wei Yu you seem to have missed what i was saying,.. im not disputing it, but i am showing something thats not shown so easy...


            • Soh Wei Yu
            And I am saying you are mistaking what we said here for nihilism or non-existence.
            When we say there is no lightning besides flash, no wind besides blowing, no rain besides falling, no river besides flowing, are we denying lightning, wind, rain, or river? We are not. We are simply denying the notion that these things have self-existing essence, that these things have self-nature of an independent and unchanging manner, apart from the flash, blowing, falling, flowing, and so on.
            Anatta is like this. It is realizing that the 'Pristine Clarity' so famed has no existence on its own side, with its own intrinsic characteristics, with its own inherent existence on its own apart from the very pure display or appearance of the moment, therefore the five aggregates turns into the five dhyani buddhas, the five wisdoms, and five lights, and so on. Pristine Clarity is not some transcendental substance apart from these pristine appearances. Clarity mistaken as self, and appearance mistaken as objects, brings us into samsara.
            After the realization has risen and is actualized, when you experience the world as a radiant and wondrous and illusory colorfully vivid and yet empty pure land and all beings as pure display of rainbow-like bodies, all as a magical display of pure empty presence or empty clarity. This is truly wondrous and liberating, nothing nihilistic at all. It surpasses all expectations and life becomes a constant outpouring of unspeakable joy and radiant pleasure. I have written about this in http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../why-awakening-is-so...
            Why awakening is so worth it
            AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
            Why awakening is so worth it
            Why awakening is so worth it

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            • Soh Wei Yu
            Even a moment of pure formless presence is simply another 'appearance' that manifests, it is not some transcendental ultimate reality behind other appearances. And it is no purer nor more ultimate than any other sensory appearance. Equally pure, equally buddha nature.

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            • Sangye Gyatso
            really it is the madyamika way to aproach it from not this, not that. aproaching it from the nirmanakaya. objectively.
            as dzogpa's we aproach it subjectively from the stanceof dharmakaya. Awarness, Clarity & Wisdom. the 3 main aspects of buddha nature.
            i pointed out risks, and i pointed out the 3 blendings. i did not dispute it..
            seems perhaps i shouldnt discuss it further, just seems to bring confusions..


            • Soh Wei Yu
            It is consistent with Zen, Mahamudra, and Dzogchen. I have given examples above from Zen and Dzogchen./


            • Soh Wei Yu
            In Mahamudra, this is the same realization:
            "At that point, is the observer—awareness—other than the observed—stillness and movement—or is it actually that stillness and movement itself? By investigating with the gaze of your own awareness, you come to understand that that which is investigating itself is also no other than stillness and movement. Once this happens you will experience lucid emptiness as the naturally luminous self-knowing awareness. Ultimately, whether we say nature and radiance, undesirable and antidote, observer and observed, mindfulness and thoughts, stillness and movement, etc., you should know that the terms of each pair are no different from one another; by receiving the blessing of the guru, properly ascertain that they are inseparable. Ultimately, to arrive at the expanse free of observer and observed is the realization of the true meaning and the culmination of all analyses. This is called “the view transcending concepts,” which is free of conceptualization, or “the vajra mind view.”
            "Fruition vipashyana is the correct realization of the final conviction of the nonduality of observer and observed."
            ...
            Lord Gotsangpa said:
            "In general, the apparent myriad of phenomena is one’s own
            mind. Since phenomena and emptiness have never been
            abiding as two separate entities, there is no need to restrain
            cognizance within."
            Also:
            "When there is an appearance of a form in the field of the eyes,
            that appearance of form itself is one’s mind; the apparent
            form and emptiness are not two. By resting gently right on
            the form without grasping, subject and object become naturally
            liberated. The same applies to sounds, smells, tastes,
            textures, as well as mental occurrences: by resting on the
            occurrence itself, it becomes self-liberated. That is to say,
            instead of meditating on cognizance, by meditating without
            grasping right on the outer objects of the six sense perceptions,
            the six senses arise as meditation and enhancement
            will ensue."
            Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III
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            Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III
            Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III

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            • Soh Wei Yu
            Likewise, Acarya Malcolm Smith has taught that in mature phase of Dzogchen practice, rigpa and dhatu are exhausted, the duality between knowing and knowledge and the field of experience collapses.
            Also, Malcolm mentioned many people have the wrong idea that Vidya/Rigpa is some eternal thing that just goes on forever, but it too is exhausted later along with all other phenomena [although this is not annihilation as appearances/pure vision still manifest] (elaboration: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../acarya-malcolm-on... )."
            Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta
            AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
            Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta
            Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta

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            • Soh Wei Yu
            If we posit Clarity as having its own existence, that becomes substantialist view. Eternalism. Similar to Hinduism or Advaita Vedanta, not anatta and shunyata

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            • Sangye Gyatso
              an important distinction is zen folks have some tools, but they do not have the cutting tools of dzogchen. so they fall into mind-made states. and also i have not found the eye yogas in zen as yet, so im not sure how they do the 3 blendings. ;;
              i have discussed this with a few abotts and came to no conclusion. seems a bit hit and miss for me. though many do get there with zen,. i cant knock their tradition too much. i just prefer dzogchen because of the risks involved.
              i wont get into strange discussions about vedanta... rofl..
              i'll stick with what the great masters state about the 3 blendings of Awareness, Clarity & Wisdom. 🙂
              if you like i will find you a nice little teaching on the 3 qualities.,.. please dont bring up vedanta with me.. im not intrested in that tradition.


              • Soh Wei Yu
              The view and realization of Zen, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and Prajnaparamita (as well as Madhyamaka) are the same.
              The methods may differ, that's all.
              Lukeinaz wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:39 pm
              "In non dual contemplation there is neither experience or experiencer. This itself is real experience."
              Malcolm:
              Yes, and this is just the message of the Prajñapāramitā Sūtras, since of course, the meaning of the Great Perfection is exactly the same as the Prajñapāramitā Sūtras, the only difference is the method of arriving at that meaning.
              ...
              Elsewhere, Malcolm said:
              There is no "experiencer" since there is no agent. There is merely experience, and all experience is empty.
              Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm
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              Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm
              Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm

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              • Soh Wei Yu
              "🙂
              if you like i will find you a nice little teaching on the 3 qualities.,.. please dont bring up vedanta with me.. im not intrested in that tradition."
              The point here is not to arbitrarily bring up the topic of Vedanta to those who are not interested, and even more it is not to bash Vedanta or anything like that.
              It is rather to bring out this tendency, common even among Buddhists, to fall into certain views that are actually non-Buddhist. Such as substantializing and positing this Clarity as having its own unchanging and independent self-nature.
              The realization of No Mind, Anatta, taught by Bodhidharma, Buddha, and countless masters from the past till today, is crucial to see through that illusion.


              • Soh Wei Yu
              And this realization and wisdom is super important.
              So important that the founder of Zen in China, Bodhidharma, has this to say in the Doctrine of No Mind:
              "Among all forms of wisdom, I regard the wisdom of no-mind as the highest." - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-doctrine-of-no...
              So we should not take this lightly and miss this jewel of a wisdom that the ancients have been pointing from all the traditions.
              The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
              AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
              The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
              The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）

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            Sangye Gyatso
            Soh Wei Yu  the blending of experience is that of the 3 words of garab dorje. i will expound a very little on it.  ;;
            it
             does no good to state 'all experience is empty' ;; because in practice.
             it doesnt happen like that.   we first start with a glimse of tawa.  
            then we begin to blend all experience with it, so we recognise tawa in
            all situations and in all circomstances.  we gain the vital
            knowlage/experience of tawa. this is gompa.
            now
             sopa  sopa changes as experience deepens. because when we cut through
            emotion, we are left with bindu. (clarity) so when we mature over much
            practice, we first see bindu (relative bodhicitta/clarity) then as we
            progress, we see that emotion begins to rise with emptiness as emptines.
             and this is where sopa is reallly maturing.
            but.
             the 3 words are an engine. all 3 occur on each cutting through of
            experience. so we see from this that it is actually a blending of
            Awarenes, Clarity & Wisdom.
            we see that actually it is Dharmakaya, Sambogakaya & Nirmanakaya..  tawa, gompa, sopa.
            leave the books alone, u wont find it in books, only through the practice of the 3 words of garab dorje.
            if
             you wish me to post you a teaching of the 3 blendings and the nature of
             mind, here it is,.. but,.. dont be so quick to jump to 'everything is
            empty'  because in finding shunyata, you dont find a big old nothing,.
            you find limitless potentiality of awarness, clarity & wisdom.
            why complicate it, its not complex. dont negate this precious birth with "emptiness" find the middle-way..
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5xGtS7xQlQ&
            Kalu Rinpoche Nature of Mind 1987
            YOUTUBE.COM
            Kalu Rinpoche Nature of Mind 1987
            Kalu Rinpoche Nature of Mind 1987
                Reply
                6m
            Soh Wei Yu
            It
             took me a couple of months of contemplation for me to progress from I
            AM into first substantial nondual then anatta. Back in 2010.
                Reply
                6m
            Soh Wei Yu
            First
             for me was the realization of doubtless Presence-Awareness, I term if
            the "I AM" realization even though there is really just a wordless and
            labelless Pure Presence (not even the words 'I' or even a sense of a
            self or person is found within that experience or moment of
            authentication)
            In
             the following months, I did integrate and actually blend that Presence
            into every experience and senses. I call it part of the 'four aspects of
             I am', and then both bahiya sutta and the questioning of "where does
            awareness end and manifestation begin", or "is there a border or
            division between awareness and manifestation?" This line of questioning
            got me into the nonduality of awareness and manifestation in all the
            sense experiences. About 6 months after my I AM breakthrough.


    Then through contemplating Bahiya Sutta, I contemplated the structure of seer-seeing-seen, until it is suddenly realize in seeing always only just seen, seeing is merely the seen without a seer, the whole subject-action-object, seer-seeing-seen structure collapses in a moment of insight into the absence of a self-existent seer or seeing besides manifestation. Then luminous manifestation in all senses becomes, over the months, naturally nondual, agentless and self-luminous -- intensely radiant and blissful and samadhi in all senses. There was no more entry or exit, it just doesn't leave. Even after that there were further breakthroughs. That was in late 2010.
                Reply
                1m
            Soh Wei Yu
            The
             initial awakening to Pure Presence and the subsequent maturation of
            Presence into 'All is Mind' is for me, the journey into realising Mind.
            The
             realization of the Nature of Mind on the other hand, begins with the
            realization of No Mind, no Subject. And furthermore; the realization of
            no Objects, phenomena that dependently originates never arose, like a
            mirage.
            Reply
            1m
        
      Sangye Gyatso
      also, to squash the stupid hindu argument very fast.. as buddhists we state there is no inherent existance.. therefore, if this is true, (which it is) then it is impossible to make claim or practice anything as being seperate. so its utterly mooot from a buddhist standpoint.. so its a totly bunkus argument and utterly pointless to even contemplate. just people getting stupid with word porn...
      the guhyasamaja tantra, im very fond of, i like how it puts the nature of mind. not singular, not plural, it is a communion of being. i see this to be true absolutely,.. we only see limitless potentiality of communion of being.


      • Sangye Gyatso
      problem is, most of the above is sutra level, and its all pointless, better to practice and get the true meaning, experientially. otherwise it just taints the proccess and makes it harder, its really quite futile, just have to allow the proccess to mature through the 3 words teachings. ;; as humans we love complications, but we cannot engineer englithenment. we can only blend experience though cutting through thoroughly (trekchod) no other way to it, whatever techniques are deployed, it boils down to that essense.


      • Soh Wei Yu
      Although the blending part was part of my journey, the key to breakthrough into effortless and natural state of no-mind where Presence is full-blown, nondual, always actualized in the myriad display and all display becomes pure land, pure vision, that requires the breakthrough of anatta realization.
      This also relates to my opening post, where I quoted,
      "Thusness also wrote many years ago commenting on someone discussing Dzogchen practice as the realization of the luminous essence and integrating it into all experience and activities, "I understand what he meant and but the way it is taught (Soh: i.e. discussed by the person) is misleading. It is simply non-dual experience and experiencing presence in both the foreground and background and in the 3 states (Soh: waking, dreaming, dreamless deep sleep). That is not realizing our true empty nature but our luminous essence... ...understand the difference between luminosity and empty nature (Soh: luminosity here refers to the aspect of Presence-Awareness, and emptiness refers to the lack of intrinsic existence or essence of Presence/Self/Phenomena)... ...Very often, people rely on the experience and not true realization of the view. The right view (Soh: of anatta (no-self), dependent origination and emptiness) is like a neutralizer that neutralizes dualistic and inherent views; by itself, there is nothing to hold. So realize what right view is pointing and all experiences will come naturally. The right enlightenment experience is like what (Zen Master) Dogen described, not merely a non-dual state where experiencer and what's experienced collapses into a non-dual stream of experience. This I have told you clearly.""


      • Soh Wei Yu
      Anatta or the wisdom of No Mind is the key to bring Pure Presence into full maturity and effortless spontaneity or natural state.
      Anatta and Pure Presence
      Someone told me about having been through insights of no self and then progressing to a realisation of the ground of being.
      I replied:
      Hi ____
      Thanks for the sharing.
      This is the I AM realization. Had that realisation after contemplating Before birth, who am I? For two years. It’s an important realization. Many people had insights into certain aspects of no self, impersonality, and “dry non dual experience” without doubtless realization of Presence. Therefore I AM realisation is a progression for them.
      Similarly in Zen, asking who am I is to directly experience presence. How about asking a koan of what is the cup? What is the chirping bird, the thunder clap? What is its purpose?
      When I talked about anatta, it is a direct insight of Presence and recognizing what we called background presence, is in the forms and colours, sounds and sensations, clean and pure. Authentication is be authenticated by all things. Also there is no presence other than that. What we call background is really just an image of foreground Presence, even when Presence is assuming its subtle formless all pervasiveness.
      However due to ignorance, we have a very inherent and dual view, if we do see through the nature of presence, the mind continues to be influenced by dualistic and inherent tendencies. Many teach to overcome it through mere non conceptuality but this is highly misleading.
      Thusness also wrote:
      The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights
      Labels: Anatta, Luminosity |

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    • Sangye Gyatso
      Soh Wei Yu the key is the realization of buddha nature. Tawa. ;; and that at its root is unimpeded awareness, clarity & wisdom. it pervades all dimensions of being. those 3 aspects are never seperate.


      • Sangye Gyatso
      Soh Wei Yu to really cut off into no-mind,.. ie. to shut out the human experience. one has to dip into death via the 4 empties practices.. it carries risk.


      • Soh Wei Yu
      Sangye Gyatso You have misunderstood what the No Mind here means.
      You are talking about no mind as a state, of either thoughtlessness or no ego. All these are experienced even in the initial breakthrough into Pure Presence that I call the I AM realization. It is also not a state of nirvikalpa samadhi, where all the senses and conceptualities shut off into a state of absorption into Pure Consciousness. All these belong to the I AM phase or states related to the I AM phase. It is not the Dharma Seal of Anatta or the realization of No Mind of Bodhidharma.
      This state of no-mind which you speak of is not the Dharma Seal of there Never Was a Mind - the Always Already, No Mind of Bodhidharma -- no Mind can ever be found or established to truly exist!
      Excerpt from the text:
      6
      "But how could one [even] gain the ability to know that it is no-mind [that sees, hears, feels, and knows]?"
      "Just try to find out in every detail: What appearance does mind have? And if it can be apprehended: is [what is apprehended] mind or not? Is [mind] inside or outside, or somewhere in between? As long as one looks for mind in these three locations, one's search will end in failure. Indeed, searching it anywhere will end in failure. That's exactly why it is known as no-mind."
      ....
      Likewise, Arya Nagarjuna puts it,
      “The cognizer perceives the cognizable;
      Without the cognizable there is no cognition;
      Therefore why do you not admit
      That neither object nor subject exists [at all]?
      The mind is but a mere name;
      Apart from it's name it exists as nothing;
      So view consciousness as a mere name;
      Name too has no intrinsic nature.
      Either within or likewise without,
      Or somewhere in between the two,
      The conquerors have never found the mind;
      So the mind has the nature of an illusion.
      The distinctions of colors and shapes,
      Or that of object and subject,
      Of male, female and the neuter -
      The mind has no such fixed forms.
      In brief the Buddhas have never seen
      Nor will they ever see [such a mind];
      So how can they see it as intrinsic nature
      That which is devoid of intrinsic nature?
      "Entity" is a conceptualization;
      Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;
      Where conceptualization occurs,
      How can there be emptiness?
      The mind in terms of perceived and perceiver,
      This the Tathagatas have never seen;
      Where there is the perceived and perceiver,
      There is no enlightenment.
      Devoid of characteristics and origination,
      Devoid of substantiative reality and transcending speech,
      Space, awakening mind and enlightenment
      Possess the characteristics of non-duality.”
      - Nagarjuna, Bodhicittavivarana
      ....
      Or as 3rd Karmapa also succinctly put it:
      All phenomena are illusory displays of mind.
      Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind
      Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded,
      manifesting as everything whatsoever.
      Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut.
      Naturally manifesting appearances, that never truly exist, are confused into objects. Spontaneous intelligence, under the power of ignorance, is confused into a self.
      By the power of this dualistic fixation, beings wander in the realms of samsaric existence.
      May ignorance, the root of confusion, he discovered and cut.
      It is not existent--even the Victorious Ones do not see it.
      It is not nonexistent--it is the basis of all samsara and nirvana.
      This is not a contradiction, but the middle path of unity.
      ....
      Looking at objects, the mind devoid of objects is seen;
      Looking at mind, its empty nature devoid of mind is seen;
      Looking at both of these, dualistic clinging is self-liberated.
      May the nature of mind, the clear light nature of what is, be realised.
      The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
      AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
      The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
      The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）

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      • Soh Wei Yu
      As Nagarjuna also said before, if mind and phenomena had true existence, they cannot manifest or transform unimpededly.
      John Tan do you have the English version of this phrase: 故龙树中论说，若是实有又如何幻化。


      • Soh Wei Yu
      Anatta is also a dharma seal, not a state.
      As written before,
      "First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
      To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically"
      "This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept."
      Bahiya Sutta: About Bahiya
      ACCESSTOINSIGHT.ORG
      Bahiya Sutta: About Bahiya
      Bahiya Sutta: About Bahiya

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      Sangye Gyatso
      Soh Wei Yu i never mentioned about 'states' ;; seems all of this is sutra level understandings you speak of,.. i dont think there is much point in continuing i think i have said all im going to on the topic. im not going to argue about madyamika doctrins 🙂 thats not dzogchen.
      and you have not understood what ive told you, you need to go find the yogas of the 4 empties. advanced tsa-lung. in anutaratantra yogas.
      in dzogchen its there too, but in the thogyal stuff. im not going to argue hinyayana/sutrayana anymore,.. seems to just bring more confusion and more spouting of doctrin without any experience..


      • Soh Wei Yu
      My point is that you are completely misunderstanding what Bodhidharma said when you related no mind to shutting out experience. It has nothing to do with that -- "no-mind,.. ie. to shut out the human experience"


      • Soh Wei Yu
      It is the Dharma Seal of No Mind. Not a state.


      • Soh Wei Yu
      "Soh Wei Yu the key is the realization of buddha nature. Tawa. ;; and that at its root is unimpeded awareness, clarity & wisdom. it pervades all dimensions of being. those 3 aspects are never seperate."
      The definitive meaning of Buddha Nature is inseparable clarity and emptiness. As Dalai Lama, Acarya Malcolm, Kyle Dixon and many have pointed out, you begin with the Clarity aspect but only realize its Empty nature later on.
      The definitive realization, the mature realization is the realization of Buddha Nature as inseparable clarity and emptiness, clarity/appearance that is empty.
      Otherwise one falls into the extremes of non-Buddhist views and eternalism.


      • Soh Wei Yu
      In January 2005, John Tan wrote:
      “[19:21] <^john^> learn how to experience emptiness and no-selfness. 🙂
      [19:22] <^john^> this is the only way to liberate.
      [19:22] <^john^> not to dwell too deeply into the minor aspect of pure awareness.
      [19:23] <^john^> of late i have been seeing songs and poems relating to the luminosity aspect of Pure Awareness.
      [19:23] <^john^> uncreated, original, mirror bright, not lost in nirvana and samsara..etc
      [19:23] <^john^> what use is there?
      [19:24] <ZeN`n1th> oic...
      [19:24] <^john^> we have from the very beginning so and yet lost for countless aeons of lives.
      [19:25] <^john^> buddha did not come to tell only about the luminosity aspect of pure awareness.
      [19:25] <^john^> this has already been expressed in vedas.
      [19:25] <^john^> but it becomes Self.
      [19:25] <^john^> the ultimate controller
      [19:26] <^john^> the deathless
      [19:26] <^john^> the supreme..etc
      [19:26] <^john^> this is the problem.
      [19:26] <^john^> this is not the ultimate nature of Pure Awareness.
      [19:27] <^john^> for full enlightenment to take place, experience the clarity and emptiness. That's all.”




      • Sangye Gyatso
      Soh Wei Yu i have never disputed Bodhidharma. as i have re-terrated several times..
      you're welcome to your 'thoughts' of what you 'think' ;; thos are yours to cut through,..
      go through that teaching from kalu rinpoche. 🙂 stop trying to complicate it, really go practice, it doesnt help to waste time with all of this nonsense..


      • Sangye Gyatso
      Soh Wei Yu and that is Unimpdeded Awareness, Clarity & Wisdom. 3 aspects, 3 great blendings.

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    • 1m



        • Soh Wei Yu
        Sangye Gyatso It's a shame you see the wisdom of Bodhidharma, Padmasambhava, Longchenpa, and so on as nonsense.


        • Soh Wei Yu
        I see it as key to liberation, because that is my experience. It liberates.


        • Soh Wei Yu
        "Among all forms of wisdom, I regard the wisdom of no-mind as the highest."
        - Bodhidharma
        Anyway no point arguing since, as I said before, you do not seem open minded enough to investigate these matters, even though they are of the essence to your liberation.

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    • Sangye Gyatso
      Soh Wei Yu ive never disputed the words/wisdom of bodhidharma, padmasambhava or longchenpa, i venerate them highly...
      but actually,.. i have only spoken about the 3 words of garab dorje, and the teachings of Kalu rinpoche that i posted in full above. ;; the way of liberation is not through tainting ones practice with concept. that is attachment of mind... thought u spoke of no-mind. you cant think your way through it. the way of dzogchen is to cut through thoughts, emotions and perceptions. in that order.
      im done here.. go practice..
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      • 3m
    • Soh Wei Yu
      Anatta is directly realized here and actualized in all moments.
      It seems you may have missed this sentence earlier:
      "This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept."
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      • Soh Wei Yu
      Anatta is directly realized here and actualized in all moments.
      It seems you may have missed this sentence earlier:
      "This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept."


      • Soh Wei Yu
      Sangye Gyatso Also, practicing without investigating and realizing the true viewless view of No Mind is also not liberating.
      As Dalai Lama and many teachers also said, even the non-Buddhists experience the Clarity aspect of Mind,
      Dalai Lama - "Nature - there are many different levels. Conventional level, one nature. There are also, you see, different levels. Then, ultimate level, ultimate reality... so simply realise the Clarity of the Mind, that is the conventional level. That is common with Hindus, like that. So we have to know these different levels...." - Dalai Lama on Anatta and Emptiness of Buddha Nature in New Book

        • John Tan
        Soh Wei Yu read chapter 13 mmk.

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        • Sangye Gyatso
          Soh Wei Yu 'Also, practicing without investigating and realizing the true viewless view of No Mind is also not liberating." ;;
          if you are practicing dzogchen, then Tawa. and u need the pointing out instructions, the practices of body, and the instructions on how to sit. ;; then u go and practice, and you consult your guru as per your results and get confirmation of Tawa. then you begin the 2nd word. gompa. ;; you wont find it in books, get lung for flight of the garuda, that gives pointing out instructions on how to anlayse in chapter 1 & 2 ;; but, really it boils down to the guru and 3 words of garab Dorje
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        • Soh Wei Yu
          A good Dzogchen master will be able to guide the student to the wisdom of No Mind eventually. But not all Dzogchen masters these days, just like not all Zen or Mahamudra masters of today have realized the wisdom of No Mind. Many have only realized the Clarity aspect, unfortunately. The preliminary rigpa, not its matured state.
          Now, even in the case if the teacher had truly realized the wisdom of No Mind, still, the students will only be able to recognise the aspect of unfabricated Clarity in the initial breakthrough. That is just the nature of how these things go. There must be a process, nobody these days have the great capacity to fully realize everything at once. But once the student acts on the instructions and knows how to investigate and contemplate, then indeed they can breakthrough eventually. But most do not have very clear view and direction on how to contemplate. This is partly why so few people realize No Mind and Emptiness.
          "I’ve never met anyone who gained any insight into emptiness at direct introduction. Plenty who recognized rigpa kechigma though.
          I don’t presume to know better than luminaries like Longchenpa and Khenpo Ngachung who state emptiness isn’t actually known until third vision and so on. You may presume otherwise and in that case we can agree to disagree."
          - Kyle Dixon
          The Degrees of Rigpa
          AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
          The Degrees of Rigpa
          The Degrees of Rigpa
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          Sangye Gyatso
          hehe.. clearly you dont understand the 3 words of garab dorje teaching. ;; i'll leave it there.. good night, i wont interact further.


          • Soh Wei Yu
          Also you seem to "presume to know better than luminaries like Longchenpa and Khenpo Ngachung" because whatever Kyle Dixon said is just what Longchenpa, Khenpo Ngachung, and other Dzogchen masters have said.


          • Soh Wei Yu
          You are just projecting.

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            • Sangye Gyatso
            Soh Wei Yu haha, ive never said anything about longchenpa or others,.. i stated 'i dont follow kyle dixon' he's not my teacher, and i dont consider him a qualified teacher. ;; so no thank you.
            i'll stick to longchenpa tradition of dzogchen, and the 3 words of garab dorje, and in this thread,.. the teachings of venerable kalu rinpoche. that is all.
            im going to remove this thread, i wont interact further.

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    1. Already-perfect.blogspot.com Says:
      May 31, 2022, 2:28:00 PM

      Here is how anyone can experience nibbana right now: imagine that each atom which makes up your body (as well as outside) is in love with each other one. They are afraid to show it while you are watching, so just imagine you're gone, and then they will each have their own experience of perfect love and peace. Remember that all atoms always function perfectly according to natural laws.


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