The Light Was Already On: Eden on No Background, No Watcher, and Instant Presence

This is a transcript of a conversation with Eden, shared with permission. Eden wrote: “Totally fine! My name is Eden” and “Honored to be on the blog!”

THU 10:33

Image shared: ATR / anatta article excerpt

absence of an agent. These 2 experiences are key for my phase 5 of the 7 phases of insights.

1. The lack of doer-ship that links and co-ordinates experiences.
Without the 'I' that links, phenomena (thoughts, sound, feelings and so on and so forth) appear bubble-like, floating and manifesting freely, spontaneously and boundlessly. With the absence of the doer-ship also comes a deep sense of freedom and transparency. Ironical as it may sound but it's true experientially. We will not have the right understanding when we hold too tightly 'inherent' view. It is amazing how 'inherent' view prevents us from seeing freedom as no-doership, interdependence and interconnectedness, luminosity and non-dual presence.

2. The direct insight of the absence of an agent.
In this case, there is a direct recognition that there is “no agent”. Just one thought then another thought. So it is always thought watching thought rather than a watcher watching thought. However the gist of this realization is skewed towards a spontaneous liberating experience and a vague glimpse of the empty nature of phenomena -- that is, the transient phenomena being bubble-like and ephemeral, nothing substantial or solid. At this phase we should not misunderstand that we have experienced thoroughly the ‘empty’ nature of phenomena and awareness, although there is this temptation to think we have. :-)

Depending on the conditions of an individual, it may not be obvious that it is “always thought watching thought rather than a watcher watching thought.” or "the watcher is that thought." Because this is the key insight and a step that cannot afford to be wrong along the path of liberation, I cannot help but with some disrespectful tone say,

For those masters that taught,
“Let thoughts arise and subside,
See the background mirror as perfect and be unaffected.”
With all due respect, they have just “blah” something nice
but deluded.

Eden / 李亦登:
I watched all of John Tans videos and then made a transcript of the one titled "Reality isn't Made of things" to share with a friend and then I read over it again.

Was about to fall asleep and was reading this again for like 100th time but the second part hit me

Eden / 李亦登:
It's just thought after thought after thought, no constant background

Eden / 李亦登:
It was clear that my way of "being in rigpa" was just conceptuality, a thought confirming and still going on undetected

Eden / 李亦登:
until I saw it, how silly, how could that thought be any of this? how could it ever stain this? So much easier and simpler and so obvious but was totally unclear before when I read that second part

Eden / 李亦登:
You said

"From a letting go perspective, "a watcher watching thought" will create the impression that a watcher is allowing thoughts to arise and subside while itself being unaffected. This is an illusion; it is 'holding' in disguise as 'letting go'."

Exactly what was happening

Soh:
Do you experience instant presence?

Eden / 李亦登:
Yes it's so immediate

Eden / 李亦登:
I get why it's called instant now

Eden / 李亦登:
Like it's so intimate, so close right here

Soh:
What is it like? Before yesterday do you also experience presence and what was it like

Eden / 李亦登:
It feels like fully inhabiting all senses, no residue and no film in between

Eden / 李亦登:
Before I thought I did experience instant presence

Eden / 李亦登:
But now I see it was a fabrication still, a subtle reification of a watcher

Eden / 李亦登:
Still need to put effort in, to maintain something that I had thought was it

Eden / 李亦登:
Now it's effortless

Eden / 李亦登:
Like, pervasive, so obvious, no effort needed. Clear, like there's nothing wrong and nothing to do

Eden / 李亦登:
Like before I had to go through the mental motions of "oh I'm gonna be in instant presence" and then also was subtly grasping at an idea or thought of how it was supposed to be. But now it's just immediate and instant, like if I were to flip a switch but the light was already on. Full contact already

[Closed Zangthal / AMS screenshot was shared privately here and is intentionally omitted from this public transcript.]

Eden / 李亦登:
Past few days I've been trying to understand what AMS meant when he pushes back against "candle illuminates itself" bc I didn't understand what was wrong with it. But then came across this post today and reread but it didn't really click until I reread ATR

Image shared: WhatsApp with John Tan, 10:56

John Tan:
The video? That was from the anatta article

Soh:
Yeah he quoted your article

John Tan:
Then he gets what?

Soh:
I think he saw no background

Soh:
Before that he talked to me about presence but it sounded I AM

Soh:
His previous I AM awakening was through dzogchen practices and teachings

John Tan:
Ic. Post anatta, one has to have all those mini experiences of total exertion as undivided activity in experience.

Then work on maturing deeply the view due desync of view and experience to overcome cognitive obscurance. Otherwise effortlessness and natural spontaneity is impossible by insights and experiences alone.

👍

John Tan:
It is not easy to clearly understand the relational view correctly and applying the logic....lol

Soh:
Was reminded of something:

Soh:
What john said here in 2013, highlighted part

Image shared: 2013 transcript / page 2069 of 2487

John Tan — Thursday, December 12, 2013 at 9:29am UTC+08:
Awareness aware of itself soon becomes dead...lol

Soh Wei Yu — Thursday, December 12, 2013 at 9:30am UTC+08:
The measure of one's depth is in the ineffability and marvelous manifestation in activity. Anatta and emptiness cannot b dead.

John Tan — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:13am UTC+08:
I see...

Soh Wei Yu — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:14am UTC+08:
Everytime I go tour, my Awareness just heighten multifold...lol

John Tan — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:14am UTC+08:
Cool lol ur anatta breakthrough also in korea

John Tan — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:14am UTC+08:
Going back tmr

Soh Wei Yu — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:15am UTC+08:
Yeah and Australia

Soh Wei Yu — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:15am UTC+08:
Im going back on 17

John Tan — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:15am UTC+08:
What u mean australia

Soh Wei Yu — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:15am UTC+08:
Good

John Tan — Friday, December 13, 2013 at 9:15am UTC+08:
I see

Soh:
I mean the first two lines. Awareness aware of itself and the measure of ones depth

Eden / 李亦登:
Yes exactly the awareness of awareness is just what I was doing before. It felt like what everyone was talking about but it was the difference between the idea of openness and the vivid ever changing experience of openness that is absolutely not dead

Eden / 李亦登:
it's more like "what the hell is this" what is going on

Eden / 李亦登:
What does he mean "maturing deeply the view due desync of view and experience"?

Eden / 李亦登:
"The mirror is not perfect; it is the happening that is perfect. The mirror appears to be perfect only to a dualistic and inherent view."

Absolutely true - before I was still reifying awareness as a state to be in even though I knew not to, it was so so subtle but ended up just being another thought. It was a thought that tried to make reality a kind of way, still subtly getting distance from everything and trying to control subtly. But the happening is already perfect; there was nothing to fix or to control or to change about all of this at all

Soh:
Related to https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/02/a-letter-to-almaas-on-dzogchen-and.html

Eden / 李亦登:
I read this right before going to the anatta article. I'll reread again

Soh:
Yeah shld read whole article again. Also the part relevant is starting from The
Philosophical Foundations of
Classical rDzogs chen in Tibet:
Investigating the Distinction
Between Dualistic Mind (sems) and
Primordial knowing (ye shes)
John Tan: He goes on to point out
that self-occuring primordial
knowing lacks most of the qualities
associated with the Yogacara
svasaṃvedana - its

Image shared: WhatsApp with John Tan, 11:20

John Tan:
Yes that is experiences and insights, but our view itself is still inherent. Means whenever we attempt to logically analyse or understand, the conceptual mind becomes Immobilized.

This habitual way of understanding and analysing runs very deep and is the default framework or orientating our world.

This is the desync between insights, experiences and the view we deeply hold.

When our conceptual mind encountered teachings like Nagarjuna Madhyamakakarika, the mind just immobilized and can't understand anything.

It can't see how past, present, future contradicts. How causal efficacies is maintained, how 8 extremes r overcome from a non-substantialist standpoint.

It is like when I asked you the question 2 decades ago -- this moment ceases as it arises, does it arise or cease?

Eden / 李亦登:
it's like he's reading me 😭

I was just reading Chandrakirtis Madhyamakavatara before bed and then stopped bc all my mind was doing was becoming immobilized. Which before reading John's message I thought was the whole point of Madhyamaka but as he says I don't think it is because they obviously understand something and it's not just a paralyzed mind

Eden / 李亦登:
What they understand though idk. Will have to deepening the view

Eden / 李亦登:
Thank you soh I get what desync is now

Eden / 李亦登:
I will continue to read 🙏 endless gratitude to you and John Tan

10:30

Soh:
Is it ok i share this convo on atr blog? I can also anonymize your name if you prefer

Eden / 李亦登:
Totally fine! My name is Eden

Eden / 李亦登:
Honored to be on the blog!

Soh:
Great, thanks