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Someone wrote:
Hello Awakening community. Please I need information, related with relationships. Since I started this spiritual journey, the love for everything has expanded and has mutated, including the relationship with my partner, who does not understand this spiritual search and that love is expanding, and it can no longer be only towards him, towards his being, and how it was before. (More than 10 years relationship). that brings separation and an emotional break was strong, is strong. And I find little information about it. since contraction and identification are created when thinking of hurting the other, another that is also ' I'.
16 Comments
Mr. JW
Speaking as a male, who got involved with a partner shortly after initial insight and ended up marrying her, I can say this... Be very mindful of making relationship-based decisions following major shakeups in perception. Love for everything is phenomenal, but your partner is also part of the everything, and by being in a relationship, you have your own form of private vows to cherish them, to safeguard them, to be tender and allow the space for them to exist as they are.
This is not to say that you shouldn't break off the relationship if you no longer feel anything, or if it's simply not working, but merely to remember that there is no need to prioritize "the Absolute" (the whole shebang of reality) over the individual expressions of it. Since you are not a monastic practitioner, you don't need to worry about it being somehow unskillful to hold one being as your romantic partner.
In fact, in lay life, a devoted partner can be one of the best furnaces for your practice. They can often be annoying, but that annoyance is annoying precisely because it targets the areas of ourselves that we wish to remain dark and hidden. We don't like being called out for spiritual bypassing or not doing the dishes. We don't like to be criticized. A partner does these things, and if we are receptive to it, we will often find that they possess wisdom we do not. They see our faults and shine light on them, and through that, they can be precious teachers.
You mentioned that your partner cannot understand that love is not solely for him... to which I would ask, how did you express this notion? It could come off as cold and uncaring to tell someone who isn't so involved in spirituality that you've had a shift, and now don't care about them more than strangers. I make no judgments on that aspect, merely an opening to investigate the way in which your sentiments might be received from a more neutral point of view. In any event, I wish you luck!
Reply10h
Mr. JD
Sometimes things just run its course and when you grow and others don't they get left behind and vice versa
Reply9h
Yin Ling
Admin
What kind of information r u looking for?
Not sure what causes the separation?
Make sure u be honest with urself and not use spiritual to bypass or use “cannot love him only” as an excuse to be irresponsible.
Tibetan old saying “change nothing except your mind” 😁
Sorry harsh truth. U have to be very mature and responsible for your own relationship and not seek validation from a spiritual group, can be dangerous what we hippy might say.
Reply9h
Mr. JTaylor
One tendency I've had to watch for in myself that might be relevant here is emotional bypassing by way of transcendent experiences. It typically goes something like this: a huge opening where it becomes clear that everything is intimately linked and there is no distance between myself and anything else. Then I hear my wife shouting to come make breakfast for the kids, that I'm wasting time on my phone and she's very stressed. Suddenly I'm insulted that she would be stressed about life; I already did a bunch of work this morning and after all this is all very trivial stuff why does she need to be stressed out about it?
That's it, that's how the ego co-opts a clear seeing of reality and perpetuates itself within the spiritual journey. It's natural and it's perfectly fine but make sure to notice it while it's happening otherwise we'll get lost in an enlightenment that's beyond everything else and that is delusion.
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Mr. BK
Spiritual insights can sometimes reveal that relationships were based on some kind of self-based confusion, whether it be grasping after something or repression of something else. Especially if they are long term relationships that were entered into while in a phase of relative immaturity. I have seen a number of people leave long term relationships when this new insight allows them to see the ways in which the relationship was propped up by some spiritually unhealthy dynamic.
Whatever it is that you decide to do, remember that you don't owe anyone your time or presence, just because things have been a certain way for awhile or even a very long time. You have to follow your heart.
Reply7h
Mr. RC
Stop searching & just “BE”. Sounds like you e got other stuff going on . 10 year relationship… w/ a person who i presume has a vested interest & loves you… and now you’re on this “spiritual journey “… and you’re going to change the rules of the relationship to suit you now? This sounds anything but spiritual, sounds phony & shallow to me… just sayin
Reply7h
Mr ADM
Unconditional Love is not the same as personal relational love. And polyamory is also OK, but will most likely destroy your current relationship. The choice is ultimately yours.
Reply6hEdited
Mr. SL
My husband has no interest at all in spirituality, but we share a love of nature. I once explained what awakening is to him and he decided he didn’t want to awaken….
Since focusing more on non-duality (and having no meaningful insights so far) I have found I experience more love and gratitude towards my husband. I think it’s because I have slowed down a little bit…and my values have changed.
Reply6hEdited
Yin Ling
Admin
Mr. SL same for myself haha, my partner don't care about spirituality, but he is very kind and compassionate, have much much less ego than anyone on a spiritual trip. He watches his anime while I read my books or he does his cooking(his hobby) while i meditate, we get along well, he supports me and I have no problem with his anime as long as it is not too loud!
Reply6h
Mr. SL
Yin, he sounds like someone I would like.
The spiritual ego is such a slippery and cunning bugger…it hides itself well in so many spiritual people I know who pretend (even to themselves) to be compassionate, wise, peaceful and so on…. And all the while it’s obvious that they think they are superior.
I would much rather avoid the spiritual ego than have a profound insight but then get caught up in it! I have enough to deal with in the non-spiritual ego!
My husband watches a lot of TV…including a lot of war films. But he kindly wears earphones because I find listening to them very uncomfortable…
Reply6hEdited
Yin Ling
Admin
Mr. SL so funny but so true. haha. yeah he is chill, very easy going. spiritual ego is the worse! But for the OP, if she is with someone with a huge ego and she has lost hers, she might find it annoying i supposed, it is hard to advice on relationship tbh.
Reply6h
Mr. SL
Yin, yes. It makes sense that in certain relationships a spiritual shift means the end.
I have told my husband that I love him as much as all cats…and all dogs (even the ones I have never met)…and the birds that come to our feeders…and the little mouse that lives in the wall. This is obviously a massive compliment for him!
Maybe due to an unconscious spiral shift, the other day I told him that I love him as much as our cat, and he was delighted not to be seen as second best for once! 😁
May be an image of cat
Reply5h
Mr. DN
“A love that does not discriminate seems to me to forfeit a part of its own value by doing an injustice to its object.”
-Sigmund Freud
you might do well to consider the consequences of benevolence in light of this quote
Reply1hEdited
Eshwar Segobind
Allow insights to mature before making decisions. Making a decision based on half a perception can cause unintended harm, which will only be seen after insights mature. All are free to do as they please.
Reply1h
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Spirituality need not lead to distancing. It sounds like your partner felt you distanced from him. Why are you distancing? If your insight is more towards nondual and anatta, then that should not lead towards distancing and dissociation, but nondual intimacy and gapless (no separation) engagement. When you are present with a person, if you imagine that enlightenment is in some esoteric space or void behind all the mundane relative phenomena like your partner, then you have fallen into delusion and duality. Anatta is: in the seen just the seen, with no you besides that. When facing your partner, there is just that encounter, your partner, as empty clarity. There is no transcendent reality behind that, so you are fully present and engaged as just that encounter, giving your fullest attention and love. Instead of becoming more distant than before, the opposite should be the case, you should be more present than before. The partner should feel more loved and appreciated than before.
Your mind should not be some place else but fully present with your partner. He must not feel left out or neglected due to your spiritual pursuit. If the partner feels he is neglected, that means you are not fully present with him but seeking something else more, but a key element of practice is to be fully present in each moment and to each encounter. In fact you must find God, Buddha Nature, Presence, whatever you call it, as your partner, not some place else. Any 'some place else' as if reality is more special 'some place else' is just delusion. This is it! Don't pursue spirituality or some spiritual reality somewhere else besides these divine appearances and expressions. The moment you seek for reality somewhere else, one falls into deviation. An AtR member broke through to anatta after reading this Dzogchen text: "“Seek the location of the heart essence through phenomena that derive from it
and come to appreciate it through the skillful means of not conceptualizing in any way whatsoever.
Since the heart essence occurs naturally, dharmakaya is not elsewhere.”" - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../joel-agee...
This does not mean you become clingy to your partner, because clinginess is also unattractive. Be fully and nondually engaged without attachment in any encounters, that is the path of anatta.
Most awakened people I know, like John Tan and my local dharma teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi, have wive/husband for decades and they get along well even though their partner aren't into the spiritual path.
“IMO there is no further, it is the depth of how deep and how much the self is released regardless of what path is taken. I am not a teacher, there may be other ways… … Dealing with the mind, energy and awareness is a complex journey. There is the safe way and the dangerous way. The way is quite straightforward but the mind uncontented will look for shortcuts as it wants more. But that is usual… lol. There are those that want others to know about it and wrote about it and there are those that are not into this.
Soh has written a lot and visited many masters that can probably share with you better.
As for me, my path is simple. It is just plainly and simply opening myself in my work, seeing my family and children enjoy… ever tasting these natural expressions. I find them miraculous yet ordinary, others may not and look for more. So I am unable to tell them anything further.” - John Tan, 2019
“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural [tendency] to explore in [various] arena[s] and enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I [am] involve[d] in Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga...🤣🤣🤣. I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan, 2019
"30. "In five ways should a wife as the western direction be respected by a husband: by honoring, not disrespecting, being faithful, sharing authority, and by giving gifts.
"And, the wife so respected reciprocates with compassion in five ways: by being well-organized, being kindly disposed to the in-laws and household workers, being faithful, looking after the household goods, and being skillful and diligent in all duties.[7]
In this way, the western direction is protected and made peaceful and secure." -- Buddha https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi.../dn/dn.31.0.ksw0.html
"''Clear mind," I told them, "means moment to moment, what are you doing now? When you are with your patients, only 100% keep doctor's mind. When you leave the hospital and you are driving home, 100% keep driver's mind. When you meet your wife, 100% keep husband's mind. This means each moment only go straight; don't make 'I, my, me.' If you make 'I, my, me,' then your opinion, your condition, your situation appear; then you have a problem.
''If, when you are with your patients, you think, 'Where is my wife? Is she spending a lot of money?' Then this patient is talking to you and you only say, 'Uhm, yeah, mmm-hmm.' So the patient is thinking, 'What does the doctor think?' They don't believe you. If you are talking to your wife, and she is telling you something important, and you are thinking about the hospital, this is just your opinion, this is just thinking; it is not your just-now situation. So put it all down, only go straight.
"We say jeon il, completely become one. When you are doing an operation, you and this knife completely become one. When you are driving in your car, you and your car only become one. If you drive on a road with pebbles and you are not thinking, only driving, then you can feel these pebbles under your tires. Only become one means, you and your action completely become one, then you and the universe only-become one -- completely no-thinking mind. Inside and outside become one. The name for this is, 'only go straight,' or 'put it all down,' or 'don't make anything,' or 'keep clear mind.'''"
- Zen Master Seung Sahn https://kwanumzen.org/teach.../1977/07/16/correct-meditation
"Zen is attaining nothing-mind, and using nothing-mind. How
can you use it? Make nothing-mind into big-love-mind. Nothing
means no I-my-me, no hindrance, so this mind can change to
action- for-all-people mind. This is possible. Nothing-mind neither
appears nor disappears. It you do correct meditation, nothing mind becomes strong and you perceive your situation clearly:
what you see, hear, smell, taste, and touch are the truth, without
thinking. So your mind is like a mirror. Then moment to moment
you can keep your correct situation. When a doctor is with his
patients, if he drops I-my-me and becomes one with them, then
helping them is possible. When a doctor goes home and he is with
his family, if he keeps his father's mind 100 percent, then
understanding what is best for them is clear. Just like this. The
blue mountain does not move. The white clouds float back and
forth.
So, the doctors liked Zen. Maybe they will try practicing! "
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Joel Agee: Appearances are Self-Illuminating
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Joel Agee: Appearances are Self-Illuminating
Joel Agee: Appearances are Self-Illuminating
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Others have also given good advise here.
I will also add what I wrote in AtR group yesterday, because there can be many factors that caused troubles in relationships and it might not be entirely related to spirituality, nor can it be solved by spiritual advices. Hence it is advisable to find advise from professionals like marriage counselors:
Yin Ling
Admin
Mr. SL yup. I used to think like that too, awakened ones know what best to do.
Actually imo I think they don’t really. They just can see things in a more “whole” or holistic way rather than self based and not allowed their defilements to step in, so there is less bias, so they sort of know what is “best” karmically.
Worldly situation is another ballgame lol.
I always feel damn awkward when someone ask a monastic .. how to bring up children? How to maintain a relationship? How to do a job well? How to not anger ur boss? 🤣
I mean.. what do they have reference on to guide u?!! 🤦🏻♀️
Especially on vaccines. There’s so many ppl who ask spiritual persons on vaccine when there are scientists around. And it’s even crazier when a person who clearly don’t understand anything about vaccine tells other ppl not to take because of xyz. They don’t even understand basic immunology and don’t have the humility to admit that they don’t know. That happened so much and is so so so so dangerous.
Reply2dEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. SL I fully agree with Yin Ling. As for spiritual teachers giving advice on jobs and relationships, it is not to say they are not without their value. Sometimes they can offer good advise. Sometimes not. You still have to discern for yourself. A non-contracted way of functioning in daily life, jobs and relationships, that is to say, how you behave in an non-dually engaged intimacy with work, with your job, with your loved ones, and yet non-attached, that is what spiritual teachers should hopefully guide people into. Non-dual, fully engaged, yet liberated, without any sense of self/Self and without any grasping.
For example, just to pick one quote from Thich Nhat Hanh, "'You must love in such a way that the person you love feels free.'"
A lot of wisdom there. In many ways, a non-liberative way of functioning in relationships can spoil the relationship. Clinginess, controlling and demanding, etc, these are not attractive traits that keep your relationship stable. But there are so many other factors involved other than just these.
Therefore, if you need professional counseling for your marriage for example, you should still find a professional marriage counsellor rather than find Thich Nhat Hanh or Rupert Spira. Even if the wisdom of the latter can be of value in relationships, they are not the be all and end all experts on marriage and relationships. A counsellor with 10 or 20 years of experience saving marriages may be your best bet than the monk or nun at a monastery, because they truly have seen it all, they have all the experience helping people out with those specific set of issues.
Thich Nhat Hanh can teach you how to be liberated, how to be fully anatta and total exertion even when doing your job, and through that you may directly or indirectly become better at doing your job, but he may not be able to tell you the details of what it takes for you to be promoted in your career (except as general dharmic advise), or what is the career best suited for you, etc. You may need to find a job counsellor.
Reply1dEdited
Reply12m
Mr. BK
You say "If your partner feels neglected, that means you are not fully present..."
Soh, surely you know that you are not the cause of other people's feelings. People have a wide range of feelings and reactions even in response to the presence of a Buddha. The way you feel is noone's responsibility but your own.
Furthermore, nondual insight doesn't necessitate any specific behavior over another. If you have realized emptiness it does not mean you have to be fully present with and give your time and attention to anyone, whether it is a former intimate partner or a friend or someone who accosts you on the street. Nondual insight does not mean you stop acting on the relative level according to your own life path and decisions. That life path could involve literally anything, from spending every waking moment with one person to becoming a nomad and never again spending more than a day with any person for the rest of your life.
Basically, emptiness does not require one to stay or to go. Anything and everything is permissible. The only thing that does not waver is the Enlightened attitude.
Reply3h
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. BK
Of course anyone is free to leave a relationship they feel is no longer serving both of them.
But if a relationship is impacted by lack of presence, dissociation, due to wrong way of pursuing spirituality, that can and will be fixed with proper guidance in spirituality.
Also, many relationship issues can be resolved by consulting experts, I don’t mean spiritual experts but marriage counselors or similar.
If the OP has interest in saving her relationship, she should look into these areas. I assume she already knows it is entirely up to her whether to try to save her relationship or move on.
Reply3hEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. BK
Also if the relationship ends and is due to some of the mistakes she makes, she also has to be aware, otherwise all future relationships will also be impacted in similar ways.
Reply3h
Mr. BK
Soh Wei Yu Ok. I just want to make sure we are clear that you are not responsible for the way other people feel. You cannot make anyone feel a certain way. Just like I cannot make you think or believe something, nor can I make you suffer.
Reply3h
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. BK that is not entirely true but half true, or is dependent on situation.
For example if you behave like an asshole to someone (i am not saying the OP is like that, not at all, i am just giving an extreme example), you can’t say you are entirely not responsible for the anger another person feels.
But it all depends on individual situations. Sometimes people feel certain ways and indeed you are entirely not responsible for how that person feels. Or the other person misunderstands.
Reply3hEdited
Mr. BK
Soh Wei Yu
Say you act like an asshole to two different people, one normal person and one Buddha.
The normal person gets angry. The Buddha does not.
Did you cause the person to get angry? Are you the cause of the Buddha not getting angry?
Reply3hEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. BK
You are partially responsible for the person becoming angry. And you will also create unwholesome karma for being an asshole if you did something harmful.
Reply3h
Mr. BK
Well karma is certainly created by unvirtuous actions. But I don't agree with you on being "partially responsible". Do you have any references to scripture on this topic?
Reply2h
Mr. BK
We are all partially responsible for everything in the sense that our minds are all connected karmically and through samaya. And for example we can dedicate merit and help other beings by teaching the dharma. And our actions affect the overall tendencies of those we are connected to. But that is very different than saying we are responsible for the way others think and feel in response to our actions.
Reply2h
Yin Ling
Admin
Mr. BK
Ben, let me offer you another perspective, see if it fits with yours.
What I feel from xp is, when one awakens, the other person is my mind manifestation. There is no separation. His feelings is feelings, whatever My physical form contribute will affect the whole dependent arising of the whole “mind”, it is a felt sense, I don’t have apart anymore, it’s all jsut me, and I am fully responsible so I try to improve the conditions that I have control upon, which is my physical form and behaviour.
Due to my own practice, I sometimes neglect my partner and he did mention to me before, it has caused hurt before between us.
So I made adjustments to my daily practice to make time for our relationship. It is my fault and not his. I wake up earlier to practice and spend time after work together. It has worked for us. I don’t say, I don’t care, u feel what u feel, I’m not responsible sorry mate.. take it or leave me.
that is to me.. quite a dickhead behaviour.
That’s my own experience in my own relationship. But u can have ur own way. Just don’t hurt ppl around u too much with a false sense of ego.
Reply2h
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. BK Agree with Yin Ling here. Also, Buddha taught that spouses have duties / responsibilities to each other. Failing which, one fails to perform one's duties as a partner. This includes being disrespectful and so on.
https://suttacentral.net/dn31/en/sujato?layout=plain...
A husband should serve his wife as the western quarter in five ways: by treating her with honor, by not looking down on her, by not being unfaithful, by relinquishing authority to her, and by presenting her with adornments. A wife served by her husband in these five ways shows compassion to him in five ways. She’s well-organized in her work. She manages the domestic help. She’s not unfaithful. She preserves his earnings. She’s deft and tireless in all her duties. A wife served by her husband in these five ways shows compassion to him in these five ways. And that’s how the western quarter is covered, kept safe and free of peril.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Buddha also taught about responsibilities to parents, friends, colleagues, teachers, and others. It's an interesting sutra with a lot of wisdom.
Reply11mEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. BK SN 47.19 PTS: S v 168 CDB ii 1648
Sedaka Sutta: The Bamboo Acrobat
translated from the Pali by
Andrew Olendzki
© 2005
Alternate translation: Thanissaro
Alternate format: [SuttaReadings.net icon]
[The Buddha addressed the monks:]
Once upon a time, monks, a bamboo acrobat,
setting himself upon his bamboo pole,
addressed his assistant Medakathalika:
"Come you, my dear Medakathalika,
and climbing up the bamboo pole,
stand upon my shoulders."
"Okay, master" the assistant Medakathalika
replied to the bamboo acrobat;
and climbing up the bamboo pole
she stood on the master's shoulders.
So then the bamboo acrobat said this to his assistant Medakathalika:
"You look after me, my dear Medakathalika, and I'll look after you.
Thus with us looking after one another, guarding one another,
we'll show off our craft, receive some payment,
and safely climb down the bamboo pole."
This being said, the assistant Medakathalika said this to the bamboo acrobat:
"That will not do at all, master!
You look after yourself, master, and I will look after myself.
Thus with each of us looking after ourselves, guarding ourselves,
we'll show off our craft, receive some payment,
and safely climb down from the bamboo pole.
That's the right way to do it!"
[The Buddha said:]
Just like the assistant Medakathalika said to her master:
"I will look after myself,"
so should you, monks, practice the establishment of mindfulness.
You should (also) practice the establishment of mindfulness (by saying)
"I will look after others."
Looking after oneself, one looks after others.
Looking after others, one looks after oneself.
And how does one look after others by looking after oneself?
By practicing (mindfulness), by developing (it), by doing (it) a lot.
And how does one look after oneself by looking after others?
By patience, by non-harming, by loving kindness, by caring (for others).
(Thus) looking after oneself, one looks after others;
and looking after others, one looks after oneself.
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