Conversation — 18 January 2010
AEN: Hi, did you receive my messages?
Thusness: What messages?
AEN: Quite a few things. "Just now meditating I have a sense that everything is not me, the mind and body are just doing its own things but its not me, they're just impersonal stuff happening in vast space. I now better understand what Kenneth meant when he said the transpersonal self has no stake in whether the body mind lives or dies, a.k.a. no dog." Is this what you mean by impersonality?
Also, Mikael said he wants to try Kundalini because he isn't progressing much with the direct path and I wanted to ask you what you think about it. And also yesterday I wanted to ask you what was wrong with what I wrote... you also said awareness is uncaused right? It seems like classical mapping of stages of enlightenment emphasizes a lot on clearing fetters like different kinds of cravings, pride, etc.
Have you seen Longchen's recent postings?
Thusness: That is not what I meant by impersonality.
AEN: I see. By the way, is there anything wrong in saying that awareness is uncaused?
Thusness: What do you mean by uncaused? And what do you mean by awareness?
AEN: Uncaused means it isn't created from something else right, and it's always present? No causes and conditions are needed for awareness to be present? Awareness is just vivid clear knowing? Like Guru Padmasambhava said, "This inherent self-awareness does not derive from anything outside itself."
Thusness: If this is what you meant about uncaused, then you should examine your understanding of 'uncaused'. Do you see awareness as always present?
AEN: Yes.
Thusness: Are you sure?
AEN: Yes.
Thusness: This would mean that you have already experienced the presence of clear luminosity in all three states. Have you?
AEN: No.
Thusness: Then what makes you say you are sure?
AEN: Don't know... awareness doesn't feel like an experience that is gained or lost?
Thusness: Then how can you say you are sure? Next, at this present moment, do you see awareness as free from conditions?
AEN: It seems like awareness is not something that can move or can be lost even though the states change from conscious to non-conscious.
Thusness: I have no idea how you derived that. If you attempt to understand Awareness that way, then you will never understand what Awareness is.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: You do not deduce, induce and think... it is a realization like what I told you about "I AMness." You are perfectly clear of its vivid luminosity, aliveness; there is nothing to derive.
AEN: Awareness feels like the always present ground of being, doesn't move. I see.
Thusness: By saying that, you have not even understood One Mind. First what is non-dual to you?
AEN: Everything is self-knowing awareness? There's no distance or division. Non-dual just means in seeing just forms, no separate seer right?
Thusness: No.
AEN: Don't know.
Thusness: There is no division between subject and object.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: Now I have told you that one can experience non-dual—meaning he/she does not experience any split—but have no idea what causes the split, why there is such a split, and the way of dissolving the split. Next, you have to face the question, "If there is no split, then how are you going to dissolve the split?"
AEN: Through insight?
Thusness: Insight is just a word.
AEN: I see. By feeling everything without duality?
Thusness: When Joan Tollifson says there is "no body, only sensations", she understands clearly the power of the 'word' body. How it 'blinds' the mind. She does not mean that 'body' does not exist conventionally.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: Similarly when a practitioner speaks of non-dual, he penetrates and has seen through the illusion of 'division'. This is different from just mere non-dual experience.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: But both are of different experiences and realization—"division" and "no body". Same applies to "coming and going". It does not mean that once you experienced non-dual, you will penetrate the meaning of "no coming or going".
AEN: I see. Rupert Spira said, "The idea that there is a mind which contains memories, hopes, fears and desires is itself simply a thought that appears from time to time like any other thought, in Consciousness. There is no mind as such. The existence of a mind is simply an idea, a concept. It is a useful concept but it is not a fact of experience. Likewise, we do not experience the body in the way we normally conceive it. In fact there is no body as such. There is a series of sensations and perceptions appearing in Consciousness. And from time to time, there is a thought or an image of a 'body,' which is considered to be the sum total of all these sensations and perceptions. However, this thought or image appears in Consciousness in exactly the same way as the sensations and perceptions to which it apparently refers. And this apparent body is made of the same substance as a thought. It is made of mind, taking mind in the broadest sense of the term, to include sensing and perceiving as well as thinking. If we stick closely to the actual experience of our bodily sensations, we see that they are shapeless and contourless. We may experience a visual perception of the skin and from several different perceptions conceive a well-defined border which contains all other bodily sensations. However, this conception does not describe the Reality of our experience. The visual perception of the surface of the body is one perception. A bodily sensation is another perception. When one of these perceptions is present the other is not. If they are both present, they are one perception, one experience. One perception cannot appear within another. All perceptions appear within Consciousness. We do not experience a sensation inside the body. What we call the body is in fact the experience of a sensation. We do not experience a sensation within a well defined contour of skin. We experience a sensation within Consciousness and we experience a visual perception within consciousness.
"We can explore this further by imagining what it would be like to draw our actual experience of the body at any given moment, on a piece of paper. Would it look anything like the body we normally conceive? Would it not be a collection of minute, amorphous abstract marks, floating on the page, without a shape or a border? Is not the actual experience of the body a collection of minute, amorphous, tingling sensations free-floating in the space of Consciousness? And if we look at these sensations, are they not permeated and saturated with the presence of Consciousness in which they appear? The continuity and coherence that we normally ascribe to the body in fact belong to Consciousness. In fact our true body is Consciousness. It is Consciousness that houses all sensations that we normally refer to as the body. Our true body is open, transparent, weightless and limitless. It is inherently empty and yet contains all things within itself. That is why such an empty body is also inherently loving. It is the welcoming embrace of all things."
Thusness: A person that experiences this also experiences mind/body drop. However, that is One Mind. Only when you get to there, then we discuss further. I wrote that in one of Dharma Dan forum too. About awareness and sensations.
AEN: I see... Hmm... can't remember but familiar. To Gozen? Oh yes, to Gary:
Gary: "In walking meditation the "I" appears to place or make sense of the sensory perception. This involves a body image for example foot sensations are perceived to be at the foot, movement is perceived in relation to the previous position. Once in walking meditation I had the body disappear so there was just the feet touch sensations belonging and going nowhere. Does this describe direct without intermediary?"
Yes Gary, what you said is correct. It is only a matter of depth and intensity, ie, how clear, how vivid, how real, how pristine the arising and passing sensations are when compared to the “I AM”. In the case of “I AM”, it is so clear, so real and so pristine that it burns away all traces of doubts. Absolutely certain, still and thoughtless that even Buddha is unable to shake the practitioner from this direct Realization of “I-ness”.
By the way, there should not be any ‘image’ in whatever experienced, thus, direct.
With regards to the “body's disappearance” that you mentioned, it relates to an experience called the “mind-body drop”. There are few more important points that you may want to take note:
It is not just due to “concentration on the sensations, the body image had no opportunity to arise”, the insight that mind and body are mere constructs must also arise and the disappearance is also the result of dissolving of these constructs.
Mind-body drop must also come with a sense of lightness. In the first few glimpses, you will also feel weightless and when the experience becomes clearer, you will also realize the “weight” of these constructs.
From the constructs, you may also want to explore further what happen when the constructs of “in/out” disappears.
Lastly the practice of self enquiry is not without danger. A practitioner can also be led into a state of utter confusions when exploring the ‘I’ through mere analytical process. So practice with care.
Thusness: Not just that. Another one about awareness and sensations. But what Rupert said is exactly what I want to convey to Gary.
AEN: I see... in the post on awareness and sensations? Or the post above?
Thusness: I said if we truly and directly experience sensations as it is, then we will realize sensations share similar nature as awareness, they share the same taste.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: If we ask “Who am I”, does the question already condition the experience from beginning? If we look for a 'who' and enter into the realm of pure, it naturally becomes a pure subject. Is the subject that important in the realm of pure? Similarly when we say 'here and now', has the mind already pre-assumed the existence of space and time?
If for a moment we are able to free ourselves from of all sort of definitions and labellings, feel the bare sensations without words, feel 'aliveness', feel 'existence' then search with our entire being its 'location'. Have the same sort of 'awakeness' for 'location' as we have for “I AM”. Is impermanence a movement from here to there?
If we penetrate deeply, it will reveal that there is nothing here, nothing now, nothing self, yet, there is vivid appearance. There is only always vivid appearance which is the very living presence that dependently originates whenever condition is. And what that dependently originates does not arise, does not cease, does not come, does not go.
We may then have an intuitive glimpse that direct path and vipassana are intimately related. :)
AEN: I see... so transience can only be Presence, it is not a time and space thing.
Thusness: Just now I told about 'body', 'dual', 'coming and going'. Do you know what that means?
AEN: You mean this: it does not mean that once you experienced non-dual, you will penetrate the meaning of "no coming or going"
Thusness: Yes. But there
AEN: Imposing an inherent and dualistic framework on experience so it seems there's divis
Thusness: Yes, that is seeing things inherently. So a practitioner goes through one by one and later from the insight of emptiness realizes it is all about seeing things inherently. Then the practitioner progress further.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: You must know what is meant by 'inherent' experientially. It is referring to the 'blinding factor' as in the case of the 'body', 'dual'. Then a practitioner resolve all these into the One Mind, One Awareness, One Consciousness. This too must be dissolved. :)
AEN: I see... By the way, do you see awareness as always present?
Thusness: I see it that way but not as what you think.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: You see awareness and manifestation as separate. You see caused and uncaused as separate.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: My understanding of uncaused is from causes and conditions; my understanding of awareness is from manifestation. But it is difficult to explain to you. At present you only understand what I meant—I see awareness from manifestation—from the insight of anatta.
AEN: I see. Yeah I don't really understand uncaused is from causes and conditions.
Thusness: Think there is a passage in Nonduality by David Loy.
AEN: Sentience cannot be resulted from insentient conditions right. I see. Oh the one I sent you before?
Thusness: Think so.
AEN: I see. David Loy in Nonduality: "The hierarchy that causality constructs must collapse into an interpenetration in which each event is equally conditioned by the whole and manifests that whole as the only thing in the universe. ...we find ourselves in a universe of sunya-events, none of which can be said to occur for the sake of any other. Each nondual event -- every leaf-flutter, wandering thought, and piece of litter -- is whole and complete in itself, because although conditioned by everything else in the universe and thus a manifestation of it, for precisely that reason it is not subordinated to anything else but becomes an unconditioned end-in-itself..."
Thusness: And you must experience what's said directly as this moment of vivid living presence.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: Think through and summarize, don't cut and paste.

