Someone with schizophrenia wrote:

"Hi. If i am not the i thought, why does the i thought stil appears here? If I am not the the I, who is the I in the head then? Is the thought thinking to itself as I? It seems that now here the I thought has a life of itself. I am not this I but the thought I talks to itself saying things like ‘ I am sad oh John’ . I am John. So now the I thought exists as a thought only complaining that it’s life sucks and that I have thrown him out of the belief of being an I. I am now left with a mind that talks to me separately from me so it thinks like this>> ‘ I am sad and u thrown me out and I feel lonely in my head cause I am not you anymore’."


    Albert Hong
    I am going to pretty much say the exact opposite of everyone.
    Instead of losing the I or self, what you need is a self. You need an agent, an individuated sense of self.
    Dissociation is not what you need. And I recommend strongly listening to your therapist.
    Especially since you're dealing with mental illness. The teachings then need to be approached with very careful consideration of your mental well being.
    So, basically you need an actual teacher. Not just yourself on the internet. Not just books. Not just people telling you what you should or shouldn't do online.
    So more agency. More sense of self. More individuation. More development of basic, healthy, sense of ego and relationship.
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    Albert Hong
    Instead of focusing on conceptuality. Or ideas. Or even inquiry. OR anything abstract. You need to do physical activities. Body based activities that have NOTHING to do with fantasy or your mental images.
    Again talk to your therapist. Go to many different therapists. Take your medication.
    No one here can really tell you what to do. Nor is it really appropriate to say anything regarding this or that.
    We are all estimating based on our limited interaction based on what we think is good for ourselves.
    Nonetheless, I repeat listen to your therapist.
    You really need to be a very integrated and whole individual to move into conscious disassociation.
    If you're not mentally healthy, then there is no real point in investigating as it will just lead to more issues, more error.
    This is why teachings of Metta and bodhicitta, heart based practices are emphasized.
    Because all of it makes it real in the heart. You know that whole feeling mechanism that allows for empathy and feelings.
    To be able to feel requires tremendous embodiment and agency.
    Everyones pooping on agency and ego but to develop an integrated ego and truly healthy and whole agency is really difficult and rare.
    That's the basis. So please, listen to your therapist.
    4

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  • Albert Hong
    the point of dharma is to become capable and loving.
    it's not ideas about this or that.
    What use is breaking through thoughts if you can't even hold a job. Or have relationships?
    Or function basically in everyday life.
    Really it is about a kind heart rooted in the basic wisdom of what we are.
    There is nothing abstract about that. No thoughts to even fight or cultivate.
    Your heart wide open, tender and radiant. That's all.
    It's stupid simple. And instead of dissociation it should lead to more integration. More depths of capacity as an agent.
    Your ego should be healthy, vibrant and alive.
    Without ego you cannot function.
    People who cannot function already just don't have a developed ego.
    Some people call that spirituality, but really its just mental illness.
    so please do yourself a favor and truly take the advice given to you by the professionals whom are trying to help you.
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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      From Daniel M. Ingram's book:
      "There is a reason that many meditation centers have questionnaires about physical and mental history, previous and current medications, psychiatric diagnoses, and the like, as they know that those who are less stable don’t always do well when things get weirder or their concentration gets ramped up. Some of my bipolar and schizophrenic friends who meditate have strongly encouraged me to include something that says to avoid the high-intensity techniques that I present here, to keep things more grounded in physical activities or somatic practices, to use much lower doses of meditation, to practice very gently, and avoid visualization and mantra practices unless you are working very closely with a qualified teacher. Being physically ungrounded, practicing frequently and intensely, and doing visualization and mantra practices without qualified guidance can increase the risks of meditation practice going wrong."
      "As an aside, please do not assume that meditation will allow you to come off your meds if you are on meds for something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. It is not that gentle meditation can’t help some people with mental illness, as it can, but it can also greatly increase mental instability at times, so keep whoever helps you manage your illness in the loop about what is going on with you if you get into meditation, and be honest with them about what you are experiencing."
      61. Crazy?
      MCTB.ORG
      61. Crazy?
      61. Crazy?
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        Soh Wei Yu
        Admin
        I concur with Albert Hong’s advises above so do read through them and take heed.
        It is better to stabilize one’s mental condition especially when it comes to schizophrenia, before proceeding with inquiry and practice.
        In other words as long as one has this mental condition, then the focus must be to stabilize this condition with medication, treatment and so on. Anything destabilizing should be avoided.
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      • Can someone with schizophrenia practice? - Dharma Wheel
        DHARMAWHEEL.NET
        Can someone with schizophrenia practice? - Dharma Wheel
        Can someone with schizophrenia practice? - Dharma Wheel

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        Admin
        If one is still drawn to spirituality then one should find a qualified and awakened teacher but keep the teacher informed about one’s mental conditions and the destabilizing effects of any practices and inquiry one engages with. It is inadvisable to do any sort of practices unguided.

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  • p.s. Albert Hong's advise also reminds me of John Tan's advise for someone suffering depression in 2007:



    Session Start: Wednesday, 21 February, 2007

    (11:11 AM) AEN:    In your response to my post you asked about fear and yes i have been experience intense fear in the last few weeks, frustration too. Just to explain a little.I was with my father for two weeks while he was ill and close to death and the worst thing for him was, although he never said it was the waiting for that moment.
    Well thats the fear Iam experiencing. During a very bad episode of depression about six months ago something inside quiet literaly died and since then its like waiting for the physical to catch up and die and that has become quiet intense. I write this by way of a little explanation of where I'm at, I don't like to talk about depression anymore. But it was interesting that you picked up on fear.
    At this stage I feel E.T.'s teaching is not helping much and feel I may have even slipped back and lost some understanding. But he did say it confounds the mind and I find that to be true.
    So I don't know where Iam at now.
    (11:11 AM) AEN:    sounds like dark nights? lol
    (12:35 PM) Thusness:    nothing like dark night lah
    (12:35 PM) AEN:    oic
    (12:35 PM) AEN:    then wat is it.. lol
    (12:35 PM) AEN:    y does she fear?
    (12:36 PM) Thusness:    i am still not sure. :)
    (12:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (12:36 PM) Thusness:    what is the url?
    (12:36 PM) AEN:    nope.. her reply to me privately
    (12:37 PM) Thusness:    ic
    (12:37 PM) Thusness:    what is eckhart tolle forum url?
    (12:37 PM) AEN:    http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/index.php
    (12:38 PM) Thusness:    she or he?
    (12:38 PM) AEN:    actually i tink shld be he
    (12:38 PM) AEN:    lol
    (12:48 PM) Thusness:    he/she is a christian?
    (12:48 PM) AEN:    dunnu.. but i tink he wld is ok with buddhism.. told him a little
    (12:49 PM) AEN:    *he is ok
    (12:49 PM) Thusness:     u told him about emptiness?
    (12:49 PM) AEN:    ya a little
    (12:49 PM) AEN:    lol
    (12:51 PM) Thusness:    and the thread about "hi everyone!"?
    (12:52 PM) AEN:    yea lol
    (12:58 PM) AEN:    he mentioned of depression here: http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/viewtopic.php?p=10092&highlight=#10092
    (1:00 PM) Thusness:    ahhaa...think its 'he' :P
    (1:00 PM) AEN:    ya
    (1:00 PM) AEN:    lol
    (1:09 PM) Thusness:    wah....so many ppl got depression in the forum. :P
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    wahahaha
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    ya
    (1:09 PM) Thusness:    better don't send me too many such msgs. :P
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    bcos they are depressed, they find eckhart tolle
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    lol
    (1:09 PM) Thusness:    later my mind full of depression
    (1:09 PM) Thusness:    lol
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    wahahaha
    (1:11 PM) AEN:    btw even after experiencing 'i amness' the depression wont go away at all? lol
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    it depends.
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    for me it does.
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    hehehe
    (1:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    but there are other type of sufferings
    (1:12 PM) AEN:    icic
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    but his seems quite intense.
    (1:13 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:13 PM) Thusness:    i din know so many ppl were under depression in eckhart forum...:P
    (1:13 PM) AEN:    hahaha
    (1:13 PM) AEN:    icic
    (1:14 PM) Thusness:    actually PON is not suitable for him.
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:14 PM) Thusness:    and the more he experiences, the more problems he will encounter.
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    har
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    lol
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    why like that
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    then wat is suitable for him.. lol
    (1:14 PM) Thusness:    because eckhart tolle isn't there yet
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    and what is taught is only 1/3 of the story
    (1:15 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    but don't say this to him hah
    (1:15 PM) AEN:    so dharma dan's shld help him? :P
    (1:15 PM) AEN:    oic lol
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    hmm....nope
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    dharma dan should be able to help him in person.
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    lol
    (1:15 PM) AEN:    wahahaha
    (1:16 PM) Thusness:    but not through his e-book
    (1:16 PM) AEN:    oic
    (1:16 PM) Thusness:    what else did u tell him?
    (1:16 PM) AEN:    roughly that only loh
    (1:16 PM) Thusness:    actually "hi everyone" doesn't really suit him.
    (1:16 PM) AEN:    isit
    (1:16 PM) AEN:    how come
    (1:17 PM) Thusness:    difficult to tell u lah
    (1:17 PM) AEN:    oic
    (1:17 PM) Thusness:    but it is good for him to read about it lah
    (1:17 PM) AEN:    icic
    (1:18 PM) AEN:    so wat.. i tell him to contact dharma dan? LOL
    (1:18 PM) Thusness:    no lah don't anyhow advice lah
    (1:18 PM) Thusness:    kok ur head
    (1:18 PM) AEN:    hahaha ok
    (1:18 PM) Thusness:    later disappoint him.
    (1:18 PM) AEN:    lol ok
    (1:19 PM) AEN:    btw other than the 6 stages i got talk about the problem of eternalism
    (1:19 PM) AEN:    i copied a little of wat u wrote.. like
    Thusness recently said: "I AMness" is the pristine awareness. That is why it is so overwhelming. Just that there is no 'insight' into its emptiness nature. Nothing stays and nothing to hold on to. What is real, is pristine and flows, what stays is illusion.

    and,

    Although there is non-dual in Advaita and no-self in Buddhism, Advaita rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic Question), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.
    (1:20 PM) AEN:    copied from the andrew's topic
    (1:20 PM) AEN:    and "That there must be an unchanging observer observing change is a logical deduction. It is the result of the lightning flash changes, logical deduction and memories that create the impression of an unchanging entity. There is continuity, but continuity with an unchanging entity is not necessary."
    (1:21 PM) Thusness:    u copied this to him?
    (1:21 PM) AEN:    yea
    (1:22 PM) Thusness:    anyway it will not work for him lah...
    (1:22 PM) AEN:    haha icic
    (1:22 PM) AEN:    so now his problem is what.. depression? :P
    (1:22 PM) Thusness:    depression is just a word. :)
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    oh then
    (1:23 PM) Thusness:    u din read what he wrote ah
    (1:23 PM) Thusness:    doctors and medication all din work for him
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    oic yea
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    lol
    (1:23 PM) Thusness:    so need miracle to cure him.
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    oic
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    wah
    (1:29 PM) AEN:    but practise in insights will help him rite?
    (1:29 PM) AEN:    sorry
    (1:29 PM) AEN:    i mean
    (1:29 PM) AEN:    practise and insight
    (1:30 PM) Thusness:    nope
    (1:30 PM) AEN:    wah
    (1:31 PM) AEN:    u mean even if become enlightened will still be depressed? :P
    (1:31 PM) Thusness:    u called him enlightened ah..:P
    (1:31 PM) AEN:    hmm so spiritual, med, psychologist etc all wont help, that means really no help la
    (1:32 PM) Thusness:    not as the way u tell him.
    (1:32 PM) Thusness:    or ET taught
    (1:32 PM) Thusness:    or insight meditation
    (1:32 PM) AEN:    oic then wat kinda help
    (1:32 PM) AEN:    will help
    (1:33 PM) Thusness:    it is a very very complex problem. :)
    (1:33 PM) Thusness:    Faith will help but more than that
    (1:34 PM) Thusness:    the problem is it needs a miracle to lead him into faith
    (1:34 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (1:34 PM) Thusness:    as in christ. :)
    (1:34 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:35 PM) AEN:    needs a miracle to lead him into christ?
    (1:35 PM) AEN:    so u mean he shld have faith in jesus
    (1:35 PM) Thusness:    difficult to tell u lah
    (1:35 PM) Thusness:    not about surrendering
    (1:35 PM) Thusness:    nor insight
    (1:35 PM) Thusness:    don't tell him about that
    (1:36 PM) Thusness:    even if he accepts it, his problem will be intensified.
    (1:36 PM) Thusness:    it is better not to do anything.
    (1:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:37 PM) Thusness:    today still quite free. :)
    (1:37 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (1:37 PM) Thusness:    maybe i will meditate later.
    (1:37 PM) AEN:    oic..

    Session Start: Wednesday, 21 February, 2007

    (1:51 PM) Thusness:    not awareness but conscious or self-aware
    (1:51 PM) Thusness:    it is not only fear he has, but a deep sense of loneliness
    (1:51 PM) AEN:    icic
    (1:52 PM) Thusness:    and ironically he also fear to let go of being extremely conscious and lonely
    (1:52 PM) AEN:    lol icic
    (1:53 PM) Thusness:    because of that, he cannot practice presence as in PON
    (1:53 PM) Thusness:    it will only intensify this self-awareness
    (1:53 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:54 PM) AEN:    a new earth also?
    (1:54 PM) Thusness:    what a new earth?
    (1:54 PM) Thusness:    have not read the book. :P
    (1:54 PM) AEN:    extremely conscious as in conscious of 'I Am'
    (1:54 PM) AEN:    oic
    (1:55 PM) Thusness:    yes
    (1:55 PM) Thusness:    he cannot sink further into the background.
    (1:55 PM) Thusness:    it is haunting him although he said there is no 'I'.
    (1:56 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:56 PM) Thusness:    practice metta meditation may help
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    together with bodily sensation.
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    means feel the body
    (1:57 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    and forget all other teachings. :)
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    forget about the self-awareness
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    forget about the now
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    forget about presence
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    if he can do it. :)
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    means take up personality
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    feel the body
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    and practice metta, compassion
    (1:58 PM) AEN:    back
    (1:58 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:59 PM) AEN:    means take up personality?
    (1:59 PM) AEN:    wat u mean
    (1:59 PM) Thusness:    don't be formless
    (1:59 PM) Thusness:    don't be imageless
    (1:59 PM) Thusness:    forget about the source
    (2:00 PM) Thusness:    and take up personality as like ego, as AEN, as John...etc
    (2:00 PM) Thusness:    and practice metta for some time
    (2:00 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (2:00 PM) Thusness:    replace all understanding with metta and takes up forms.
    (2:01 PM) Thusness:    love forms
    (2:01 PM) Thusness:    i think this is a better fit for him now. :)
    (2:01 PM) Thusness:    but don't over advice.
    (2:01 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (2:02 PM) Thusness:    u cannot apply the same medicine to all ppl leh
    (2:02 PM) AEN:    icic
    (2:02 PM) AEN:    lol
    (2:02 PM) Thusness:    only when condition is right, then u can tell.
    (2:03 PM) AEN:    iic..
    (2:03 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (3:00 PM) AEN:    btw ask u ah.. is parinirvana (after death) total presence without conditions, isit like deep sleep?
    (3:01 PM) Thusness:    no lah
    (3:01 PM) AEN:    oic
    (3:02 PM) AEN:    nirodha samapatti is like deep sleep rite?
    (3:02 PM) AEN:    wats the difference between deep sleep and parinirvana
    (3:02 PM) Thusness:    deep sleep is a form of condition
    (3:02 PM) AEN:    oic
    (3:02 PM) Thusness:    in human form
    (3:02 PM) AEN:    icic
    (3:03 PM) AEN:    so parinirvana is total presence without conditions, of even the deep sleep?
    (3:03 PM) Thusness:    where we are only dealing with certain aspect of cognition and mental states put into suspension.
    (3:03 PM) AEN:    oic
    (3:04 PM) Thusness:    it is not at u or my stage to speculate anything about parinirvana. :P
    (3:04 PM) AEN:    lol ok
    (3:04 PM) Thusness:    anyway do not mistaken a suspension of memory as cessation of consciousness
    (3:04 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (3:04 PM) Thusness:    and what that is important is experience presence first.
    (3:05 PM) AEN:    icic
    (3:27 PM) AEN:    btw master tozan's rank 3 and 4 talks about self arising.. what about rank 5? :P
    (3:27 PM) AEN:   
    V. Unity Attained:

    Arrival within Both at the Once [ken-chu-to]

    The Master's verse-comment says:

    How many times has Tokuun, the idle old gimlet,
    Not come down from the Marvelous Peak!
    He hires foolish wise men to bring snow,
    And he and they together fill up the well.

    The student who wishes to pass through Tozan's rank of " Unity Attained " should first study this verse.

    It is of the utmost importance to study and pass through the Five Ranks, to attain penetrating insight into them, and to be totally without fixation or hesitation. But, though your own personal study of the Five Ranks comes to an end, the Buddha-way stretches endlessly and there are no tarrying places on it. The Gates of Dharma are manifold.
    (3:30 PM) Thusness:    who tell u rank 4 is self-arising?
    (3:30 PM) AEN:    u said rank 4 is self arising is by meeting opposites or something
    (3:30 PM) AEN:    like unmanifested is manifested, etc
    (3:31 PM) Thusness:    unmanifested is the manifest is not self-arising leh
    (3:31 PM) AEN:    huh
    (3:31 PM) AEN:    orh then rank 4 is what?
    (3:31 PM) Thusness:    is just non-dual only.
    (3:31 PM) AEN:    har
    (3:31 PM) AEN:    ok
    (3:32 PM) Thusness:    by the way what is the url?
    (3:32 PM) AEN:    http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/five_ranks.html

    Session Start: Wednesday, 21 February, 2007

    (6:47 PM) AEN:    Yes your friend is exactly right in everything he said, I recognise symptoms of depression since age 7 or 8 which got worse with age ( i'm 48, male) but was diagnosed as clinlcal depressed about 7years ago. For the last 2 years its become chronic and I had to quit work, so I lost contact with people as it became to hard to hide it anymore and I physicaly couldn't do it anymore.
    I have hid it from everyone all my life except family and I just pretend to be someone else with others.
    I have always been extremely self conscious and hide that too. But yes lonliness has become a big problem always has been, even though I'm married and have 3 children.
    I may as well say that I have lost all hope and direction in life and stuggle all day everyday with suicidal thoughts. I'm not into self harm so I will not carry it out though. I'm a bit stubborn that way.
    Basicaly E.T was my last hope so I have put a lot of effort into that as medication and other therapies has not helped at all.
    I have been trying inner body awareness and watching the breath while meditating and during the day.
    I did have a
    (6:47 PM) AEN:    I did have an experience of the void in which there was only a sense of impersonal Amness but have not been able to repeat it , instead there is lost time and blankness as if I ceased to exist when I meditate now, but its not like sleep.
    My sleeping is very bad too, I'm told I shout and physically fight most of the time but I don't recall dreaming or remember any of it.
    Thanks for taking an interest you are very sincere and I hate to lay this stuff on anyone, so sorry about that. I will check out the links you gave me and practice body awareness.
    I had an interesting experience last week where I got the impression that the scene outdoors was a reflection of the self everywhere I looked, I was still aware of the body. I later put it down to mind/thought not so sure now
    though. I really don't trust my mind anymore. Thanks again, hope this isn't to heavy, you can tell i worry a lot too. cya
    (10:02 PM) Thusness:    ai yoo...u din say i said right?
    (10:04 PM) AEN:    lol i jus briefly mention u only la..
    (10:04 PM) AEN:    lol
    (10:04 PM) Thusness:    ok. :)
    (10:05 PM) AEN:    sounds quite terrible
    (10:05 PM) Thusness:    yes
    (10:06 PM) Thusness:    only miracle can help. :P
    (10:06 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (10:06 PM) Thusness:    practice metta, compassion and love
    (10:06 PM) AEN:    i tink his mental bad karma is strong
    (10:06 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:06 PM) Thusness:    and take faith.
    (10:07 PM) AEN:    icic
    (10:07 PM) AEN:    ok do i tell him about taking faith part?
    (10:07 PM) AEN:    i didnt mention leh
    (10:07 PM) AEN:    and how to tell him also.. lol
    (10:07 PM) Thusness:    still okie
    (10:07 PM) Thusness:    but hopefully metta, compassion, love can change his karma.
    (10:08 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (10:08 PM) AEN:    this kinda thing has it got to do with brain/neurological disfunctioning or what?
    (10:08 PM) AEN:    like the chemicals, etc
    (10:09 PM) Thusness:    i do know...not a psychiatrist. :P
    (10:09 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (10:09 PM) Thusness:    don't
    (10:09 PM) Thusness:    heehehe
    (10:09 PM) AEN:    lol
    (10:09 PM) AEN:    btw what about the faith part.. what do i tell him
    (10:10 PM) Thusness:    taking faith in his case is not about surrendering
    (10:10 PM) Thusness:    as i have already told u that surrendering doesn't work for him.
    (10:10 PM) Thusness:    more about changing his luck...ehehe
    (10:10 PM) AEN:    har??
    (10:10 PM) AEN:    wat u mean lol
    (10:11 PM) Thusness:    did u tell him to drop away self-awareness?
    (10:11 PM) AEN:    yea
    (10:12 PM) Thusness:    okie. :)
    (10:12 PM) Thusness:    did u tell him to practice metta, compassion and love?
    (10:13 PM) AEN:    ya
    (10:14 PM) Thusness:    give up the practice of self-awareness
    (10:14 PM) Thusness:    and take faith, believe and practice metta. :)
    (10:14 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (10:14 PM) AEN:    how to say about the faith part
    (10:15 PM) Thusness:    that is why i said christianity is a better choice for him now. :)
    (10:15 PM) Thusness:    let the self-awareness, the "AMness" take secondary role.
    (10:15 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (10:16 PM) Thusness:    forget about the presence.  Practice metta and believe.  Use this two to overcome his problems.
    (10:16 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (10:16 PM) Thusness:    hopefully that can change his karma.
    (10:17 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:18 PM) AEN:    btw how wld body awareness help as well?
    (10:20 PM) Thusness:    because i told him to drop self-awareness
    (10:20 PM) Thusness:    u told him that already.
    (10:21 PM) AEN:    oo icic
    (10:21 PM) AEN:    so body awareness will lead to dropping self awareness rite?
    (10:22 PM) AEN:    btw u said having faith to change luck
    (10:22 PM) AEN:    wat do u mean by that lol
    (10:24 PM) Thusness:    means using the strength of belief and faith to change his luck.
    (10:24 PM) AEN:    oic how does it work
    (10:24 PM) AEN:    lol
    (10:24 PM) AEN:    wat u mean by luck
    (10:25 PM) AEN:    as in change the karma?
    (10:25 PM) Thusness:    where got how does it work lah
    (10:25 PM) Thusness:    this sort of thing where got logic
    (10:25 PM) Thusness:    lol
    (10:25 PM) AEN:    har?? lol icic
    (10:25 PM) AEN:    u mean if u have faith in jesus then ur luck will just change?
    (10:25 PM) AEN:    :P
    (10:26 PM) Thusness:    not exactly that. :)
    (10:26 PM) Thusness:    but it should be better than now.
    (10:26 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (10:26 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:27 PM) Thusness:    christians always pray as a group what...
    (10:27 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (10:27 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (10:34 PM) AEN:    so u mean praying as a group would help?
    (10:35 PM) AEN:    and praying as a group is better than praying alone? or wat
    (10:35 PM) AEN:    lol
    (10:40 PM) Thusness:    it all depends.
    (10:41 PM) Thusness:    it is how sincere the group is.
    (10:41 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (10:42 PM) Thusness:    for now, it is difficult to change anything as a result of insight.
    (10:42 PM) Thusness:    almost no hope. :P
    (10:42 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (10:42 PM) Thusness:    sad to say that :(
    (10:43 PM) AEN:    u mean even if he reach stage 5? :P
    (10:43 PM) Thusness:    very very difficult for him to reach stage 5.
    (10:43 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:43 PM) AEN:    bcos of depression? lol
    (10:43 PM) Thusness:    2 and above already tough.
    (10:44 PM) Thusness:    nope
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    oic he is stage 1 ?
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    bcos of self awareness?
    (10:44 PM) Thusness:    nope...just that the condition isn't there.
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    he is stage 1 now?
    (10:44 PM) Thusness:    yeah
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    icic
    (10:49 PM) Thusness:    so not all problems are dark nights hor..
    (10:49 PM) AEN:    lol ok
    (10:49 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (10:52 PM) Thusness:    actually he should share it with others in the forum.
    (10:52 PM) Thusness:    if he doesn't say, no one will really know what are his problems.
    (10:52 PM) Thusness:    and most of them ....ehehe....all got depression.
    (10:52 PM) Thusness:    :P
    (10:53 PM) Thusness:    anyway don't tell him this.

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