• John Tan
    Yin Ling Ic. U mean since all is ultimately illusory, we should not be too attached to permanent or impermanent view but rather see the right conditions and prescribe the right skillful means for even permanent and self-view can help if applied skillfully and no-self/impermanent view can be harmful if prescribed unskillfully. Then one can rest in equanimity and that is true actualisation of selflessness (emptiness) and dependent arising.
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  • Yin Ling
    I think u said it better haha.
    wrote this bec I was seeing how we can’t really detect subtle impermanence with our senses, things seem quite permanent to us..
    But then things are illusory to me at that time when I cannot detect subtle impermanence, eg the seemingly permanent house feels illusory, so I wonder, if I can ungrasp from the whole situation, does impermanence or permanence still needs to come into my contemplation ?
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  • John Tan
    Yin Ling yes I agree like Buddha also taught Tathāgatagarbha Sūtra to help ppl that fear view of no-self and also prevent ppl from turning towards nihilistic view.
    We should also not be attached to raft. Like de-construction of mental constructs can help until a certain phases but too have to be dropped and practice just turn natural and spontaneous.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Illusory to me also means non arising and non abiding and non ceasing... which is not the same as them merely flickering in and out of existence [this is still a subtle view of subtly existing dharmas] in fast pace.
    On the conventional level though, all conditioned phenomena are impermanent, whatever is subject to origination is subject to cessation, birth and death co-originates.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    "“They practice the transcendent perfection of wisdom whenever they do
    not engage with the notions that physical forms are permanent or that they
    are impermanent. Similarly, they practice the transcendent perfection of
    wisdom whenever they do not engage with the notions that feelings,
    perceptions, formative predispositions, and consciousness are permanent or
    that they are impermanent. [F.199.b] They practice the transcendent
    perfection of wisdom whenever they do not engage with the notions that
    physical forms are imbued with happiness or that they are imbued with
    suffering. Similarly, they practice the transcendent perfection of wisdom
    whenever they do not engage with the notions that feelings, perceptions,
    formative predispositions, and consciousness are imbued with happiness or
    that they are imbued with suffering. They practice the transcendent
    perfection of wisdom whenever they do not engage with the notions that
    physical forms are a self or that they are not a self. Similarly, they practice the
    transcendent perfection of wisdom whenever they do not engage with the
    notions that feelings, perceptions, formative predispositions, and
    consciousness are a self or that they are not a self.
    “They practice the transcendent perfection of wisdom whenever they do
    not engage with the notions that physical forms are empty or that they are
    not empty. Similarly, they practice the transcendent perfection of wisdom
    whenever they do not engage with the notions that feelings, perceptions,
    formative predispositions, and consciousness are empty or that they are not
    empty. They practice the transcendent perfection of wisdom whenever they
    do not engage with the notions that physical forms are with signs or that
    they are signless. Similarly, they practice the transcendent perfection of
    wisdom whenever they do not engage with the notions that feelings,
    perceptions, formative predispositions, and consciousness are with signs or
    that they are signless. They practice the transcendent perfection of wisdom
    whenever they do not engage with the notions that physical forms have
    aspirations or that they are without aspirations. Similarly, they practice the
    transcendent perfection of wisdom whenever they do not engage with the
    notions that feelings, perceptions, formative predispositions, and
    consciousness have aspirations or that they are without aspirations."
    - Prajnaparamita Sutra in 10,000 lines https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-031-002.html
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  • John Tan
    Soh Wei Yu yes so from insight of illusoriness, we understand permanent as absence of cause of origination and cessation and not as "unchanging".
    It is also important because mind is often taught as clear and knowing and this very often lead to self-view. When anatta insight dawns, it is also recognised that appearances are mind, there is no mind other than the ongoing appearances and therefore mind is empty and conventional. This is counter intuitive to our existing paradigm and must be pointed out otherwise we r not recognizing the nature of mind. Like echo and rainbow, the nature of mind is spacious and free, without essence.
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  • Yin Ling
    Ya but then I know what I’m saying on the above post is a little bit dangerous 😂 because it sounds very nihilistic
    But it has been sthg on my mind for awhile.
    As in when practice is natural and spontaneous, one release the raft of the dharma seals, and abide in minds nature. One don’t think impermanence , existence, permanence, etc
    Very tricky to elucidate actually .. very easy to mislead. Shouldn’t have posted tbh 😂😆
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  • Yin Ling
    Soh Wei Yu ya.. I agree with u, at one point it is ok whether it flickers or not flickers , it is still illusory.
    It is transcended.
    Hence I think impermanence being emphasised so much by the Buddha has a provisional purpose of bringing us to no-self(two levels)
    When at that stage, somehow I feel the raft will be released
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Yin Ling Yup.. to be more precise the 'flickering dharmas having momentary existence undergoing arising, abiding and subsiding' may be present even post anatta.. but gone after twofold emptiness. Or like you said no-self(two levels). But I agree with your statement about it being a raft.
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  • Yin Ling
    John Tan”permanence” of mind’s nature so to speak?
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  • Yin Ling
    Soh Wei Yu ya sometimes ppl even talk about permanence like what John is saying up there 😂tricky.
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  • John Tan
    Yin Ling permanence means absence of cause of orignation and cessation, not "unchanging and real" in Mahayana Buddhism.
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