Impermanence is Buddha-Nature: Sixth Ch'an Patriarch Hui-Neng

[8/10/21, 8:56:46 PM] John Tan: Read the foundation of dzogchen philosophy
[8/10/21, 9:13:05 PM] John Tan: It is in the book
[8/10/21, 9:13:59 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ok
[8/10/21, 9:25:44 PM] John Tan: The book "foundation" goes in extensively to define what is zhi and kun zhi, their histories and development...etc...both r termed as "ground" which I do not think it as appropriate for a praxis that rest entirely on abolishing "ground" even when talking abt "zhi".  Malcolm is more cautious on this aspect.
[8/10/21, 11:17:28 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[8/10/21, 11:17:58 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm translate it as basis
[8/10/21, 11:18:06 PM] Soh Wei Yu: malcolm:

And this so-called "god" aka basis [gzhi] is just a nonexistent mere appearance, that is, our primordial potentiality also has no real existence, which is stated over and over again in countless Dzogchen tantras.

For those whom emptiness is possible, everything is possible.
For those whom emptiness is not possible, nothing is possible.

-- Nāgārjuna.
[8/10/21, 11:21:37 PM] Soh Wei Yu: master shen kai teacher chen lzls etc uses the term 宇宙本体
[8/10/21, 11:26:48 PM] John Tan: Although David Higgins used the word "ground", he qualifies it as "insubstantial and unestablished in any sense".
[8/10/21, 11:27:07 PM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
[9/10/21, 2:16:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Tommy McNally
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Tommy McNally
Hiya! Thanks for adding me to the group, it's really good to see you and John's opinions on the subtleties of Dzogchen as they seem to align with my own. I've been writing another blog for the last year that's mainly dharma-based, but I've tried to keep it simple and practical while combining it with motivation/mindset training. There's a few posts on there that I'd love to hear your opinion on, especially in the context of John's 7 stage model.

https://madladmindfulness.wordpress.com/
[9/10/21, 7:57:37 AM] John Tan: What r the posts?
[9/10/21, 4:35:37 PM] John Tan: I wonder y there is a need for Dzogchen to emphasize so much on gzhi and kun gzhi.  I do not see any real help in actual practice.  In fact seeing through self-nature is sufficient.  Direct and simple and straight forward🤣.  Although there r some important points in the praxis of dzogchen.
[9/10/21, 4:39:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[9/10/21, 4:48:35 PM] John Tan: Also in early texts of Dzogchen and Nyingma scholars actually do not differentiate between gzhi and kun gzhi.
[9/10/21, 5:13:47 PM] John Tan: Btw how is ur uncle?
[9/10/21, 5:20:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Dont know.. never heard since
[9/10/21, 5:20:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I see
[9/10/21, 7:23:42 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Mahamudra also talk about “ground” but dunno what term they use


https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/search/label/Karmapa%20Rangjung%20Dorje?m=1

The ground of purification is the mind itself,
indivisible cognitive clarity and emptiness.
That which purifies is the great vajra yoga of mahamudra.
What is to be purified are the adventitious,
temporary contaminations of confusion,
May the fruit of purification, the stainless dharmakaya, be manifest.
Resolving doubts about the ground brings conviction in the view.
Then keeping one's awareness unwavering in accordance with the view,
is the subtle pith of meditation.
Putting all aspects of meditation into practice is the supreme action.
The view, the meditation, the action--may there be confidence in these.
All phenomena are illusory displays of mind.
Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind
Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded,
manifesting as everything whatsoever.
Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut.
[9/10/21, 7:23:53 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I suppose dzogchen and mahamudra should be the same view
[9/10/21, 7:57:53 PM] John Tan: Dzogchen is the path that starts from taking the view that anatta is a seal, always and already so.
[9/10/21, 7:59:37 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. mahamudra is the same?
[9/10/21, 8:09:09 PM] John Tan: I guessed so but I don't want to comment on this.
[9/10/21, 8:22:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. i guess zen should also be so
[9/10/21, 8:22:36 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Especially for dogen soto zen
[9/10/21, 8:22:42 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Even bodhidharma
[9/10/21, 8:34:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Even for sixth patriarch hui neng although initially talk about Self, in his teachings he said impermanence is buddha nature and refute non buddhist views
[9/10/21, 8:35:02 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Yet sadly few zen masters in china understand that. Maybe ven hui lu (See: True Mind and Unconditioned Dharma) and hong wen liang
[9/10/21, 8:40:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: 僧志彻：弟子常览《涅槃经》，未晓常无常义。乞和尚慈悲，略为解说。 　　师曰：无常者，即佛性也；有常者，即一切善恶诸法分别心也。 　　曰：和尚所说，大违经文。 　　师曰：吾传佛心印，安敢违于佛经？ 　　曰：经说佛性是常，和尚却言无常；善恶诸法，乃至菩提心，皆是无常，和尚却言是常。此即相违。令学人转加疑惑。 　　师曰：《涅槃经》，吾昔听尼无尽藏读诵一遍，便为讲说，无一宇一义不合经文。乃至为汝，终无二说。 　　曰：学人识量浅昧，愿和尚委曲开示。 　　师曰：汝知否？佛性若常，更说什么善恶诸法，乃至穷劫，无有一人发菩提心者。故吾说无常，正是佛说真常之道也。又一切诸法若无常者，即物物皆有自性，容受生死，而真常性有不遍之处。故吾说常者，正是佛说真无常义。佛比为凡夫外道执于邪常，诸二乘人于常计无常，共成八倒。故于涅槃了义教中，破彼偏见，而显说真常、真乐、真我、真净。汝今依言背义，以断灭无常，及确定死常，而错解佛之圆妙最后微言，纵览千遍，有何所益？ 　　行昌忽然大悟，说偈云： 　　因守无常心，佛说有常性。 　　不知方便者，犹春池拾磔。 　　我今不施功，佛性而现前。 　　非师相授与，我亦无所得。 　　师曰：汝今彻也，宜名志彻。彻礼谢而退。
引自 佛性无常
[9/10/21, 9:07:56 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The monk Chih-ch’e was a native of Kiangsi. . . . After the Zen school split into southern and northern factions, though the leaders of the two groups made no such discriminations themselves, rivalry grew between their followers, which gave rise to intense feelings of partiality. Followers of the northern faction arbitrarily put forward their leader Shen-hsiu as the Sixth Patriarch and were thus envious when it became widely known that the patriarchal robe had been transmitted to Hui-neng, leader of the southern group. They enlisted the services of Hsing-ch’ang and told him to murder Hui-neng. Hui-neng, with his all-knowing mind, perceived what they were about. He placed ten taels of silver in his room. One dark night, Hsing-ch’ang entered the room and prepared to strike Hui-neng. Hui-neng stretched out his neck in readiness. Hsing-ch’ang struck three times but was unable to inflict any injury. Hui-neng said, “A just sword does not miss its mark; an unjust sword cannot strike true. I’ll give you money, but not my life.” Hsing-ch’ang fell over in a swoon. When he revived, he penitently begged Hui-neng to pity him and make him a monk. Handing him the money, Hui-neng said, “You had best leave. I’m afraid my followers might try to take revenge. In the future you can disguise yourself and come here again. I will receive you then.” Hsing-ch’ang followed Hui-neng’s advice and escaped into the night.
Afterward, he went to a priest and had himself ordained, receiving the full precepts and devoting himself to religious practice. One day, recalling Hui- neng’s words, he traveled to visit him. Hui-neng said, “You’ve been on my mind all this time. What has kept you so long?” Hsing-ch’ang said, “Before, you forgave my criminal behavior. Today, I am engaged in austere discipline as a monk. But I have been unable to find any way to requite your kindness. I will just do all I can to transmit the Dharma for the sake of others. I always study the Nirvana Sutra, but I haven’t been able to grasp the meaning of permanence and impermanence. Please, master, in your compassion, would you briefly explain it for me?” Hui-neng said, “Impermanence is the Buddha-nature. Per- manence is the mind that discriminates all the various dharmas good and bad.” “That’s not at all what the sutra says,” replied Hsing-ch’ang. “I transmit the seal of the Buddha-mind, why would I deliberately say something that is counter to the Buddha’s sutras?” said Hui-neng. “The sutra preaches that the Buddha- nature is permanent, but you say it is impermanent. The sutra says all dharmas good and bad and even the mind of enlightenment are impermanent. You say they are permanent,” said Hsing-ch’ang. “Those differences only deepen my doubt.” Hui-neng said, “Once when I heard the nun Wu Chin-tsang read the Nirvana Sutra, I made some impromptu comments on it. Not one of my words or their meaning was in disagreement with the sutra’s. It’s the same when I teach you. I never say anything different from the sutra.” Hsing-ch’ang said, “My powers of understanding are poor. Please, could you explain it in more detail?” Hui-neng said, “If the Buddha-nature were permanent, what would be the need to preach beyond that about all dharmas good and bad? Even in the passage of an entire kalpa, there would not be a single person who would ever raise the mind of enlightenment. That is why I preach impermanence, and that itself is the way of true permanence preached by the Buddha. If, on the other hand, all dharmas were impermanent, then each thing would have a selfhood and take part in birth-and-death, and there would be areas to which true permanence did not reach. Therefore, I preach permanence, and it is just the same as the meaning of true impermanence preached by the Buddha. The attachment to illusory permanence of unenlightened non-Buddhists, and the discriminations of followers of the two vehicles that take permanence as imper- manence—which together make up the eight topsy-turvy views—were refuted as distorted, one-sided views by the Buddha when he expounded his complete and perfect teaching of nirvana and made explicit the teaching of true permanence, true pleasure, true self, and true purity. By relying merely on words, you now subvert their inner meaning. If you mistake the perfect and subtle words the Buddha spoke just prior to his demise as indicating nihilistic imper- manence or lifeless permanence, you could get no benefit from the Nirvana Sutra, even though you read it a thousand times over. Hsing-ch’ang suddenly attained a great enlightenment. He made a verse:
Holding firmly to the mind of impermanence The Buddha preached permanence;
Those unaware of his skillful means
Just seize on a pebble in a spring pool. Though I now put forth no effort at all, Buddha-nature is right under my nose.
It is not received from my teacher, Nor is it something I gained either.
Hui-neng said, “You have penetrated it. I must give you the name Chih- ch’e (Aspiration Penetrates).” Chih-ch’e bowed in thanks and left (from the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch [Liu-tsu t’an-ching]).

(Translation taken from The Heart of Dogen's Shobogenzo translated by Norman Waddell and Masao Abe)
[9/10/21, 9:10:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Hui neng is saying impermanence is buddha nature (anatta) and furthermore all dharmas are non arising without selfhood (emptiness)
[9/10/21, 9:12:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So actually platform sutra leads to the seven phases lol first the hui neng koan what is your original face before thinking good and bad, then the teaching about impermanence is buddha nature and non arising of dharmas
[9/10/21, 9:23:43 PM] John Tan: Original face means to realize that appearances has always been one's radiance clarity, primordially luminous and naturally free.
[9/10/21, 9:23:56 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[9/10/21, 9:31:32 PM] John Tan: Problem is most ppl that engaged in the so called highest teachings r having a dualistic and substantialist view.  If we do not recognize the nature of appearances and kept emphasizing on primordial knowing, taking the non-progressive is imo a great disservice than help.
[9/10/21, 9:33:28 PM] John Tan: Just like when u r at I M, u already like to talk about spontaneous presence which I caution u don't talk about that until at least mature non-dual.
[9/10/21, 9:37:43 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. lol yeah

The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle: the Audiobook on Youtube

 

Soh:

A book I give to everybody whether he or she is a Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, as long as they are open to spirituality. Audiobook spoken by Eckhart Tolle.

Also related:

John Tan, April 2006, "It is a great book and very inspiring. I enjoy reading Eckhart Tolle's books too.

...

But "The Power of Now" is not meant to be a Sutra about ultimate reality.
In terms of the touch of Presence, I prefer Toni Packer (Soh: see https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/search/label/Toni%20Packer) and Joan Tollifson (see: https://www.joantollifson.com/waking.html). Though their books are not as inspiring.

...


Hi Isis,

Not exactly so. I AMness is a transcendental experience where consciousness is directly perceived as a pure sense of Existence. The experience is intuitive and beyond the realm of thought. It is a non-dual and precious experience of pure consciousness. The problem lies in personifying this experience which is a mental state into an entity 'Self' with inherent existence.

 

 

....

 

Session Close: Sun Apr 16 02:54:40 2006
d to enjoy "the power of now" pretty much.
<Presence> haha ya
<^john^> it is a good read.  I like his book too.
<Presence> icic
<^john^> But in terms of experience of Presence, the expression of luminosity will not be just that. :)
<Presence> oic
<Presence> how come
<Presence> but eckhart tolle shld know what to write right?
<^john^> hmm...i do not know.  The expression is more like "I AM". :)
<Presence> u mean eckhart tolle's?
<^john^> yes.
<Presence> ic ya i agree
<Presence> so how diff are his to the others in terms of expression of luminosity
<Presence> btw wat about jesus? lol
<^john^> try Zen Master Dogen. :)


<^john^> The idea of God is personal. :)
<^john^> there is a deep sense of individuality.
<Presence> oic then isit like eckhart tolle? u mentioned he had a deep sense of individuality
<^john^> This is the sense of "I AMness".
<Presence> oic
<^john^> The experience of divinity through this way will result in that.
<Presence> oic
<^john^> pure awareness is different.
<^john^> There is the presence, but the clarity and luminosity aspect is emphasis
<^john^> and most importantly, the emptiness aspect of reality
<^john^> luminosity and emptiness must result in the spontaneous arising
<Presence> oic..
<Presence> i tink makes sense to me
<Presence> so..
<Presence> in eckhart tolle's book
<Presence> what words do u feel have a deep sense of individuality
<^john^> it is the description quite similar to longchen descriptions. :)
<Presence> oic
<^john^> he will understand it.
<Presence> ya true
<Presence> i asked him
<Presence> u got read his forum?
<^john^> ic
<^john^> nope
<Presence> http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1144668006
<Presence> I have his books.
<Presence> In my opinion, it is so-so. I think enlightenment is not as easy as he had described. Basically his entire book revolve around the subject of the Presence.
<Presence> But, I think, the way of entering Presence is not clearly described in his book. And I think, he also mistaken 'I AM/pure observer' for pure awareness.
<Presence> Also, our life don't not come to a standstill after enlightenment. We still continue to learn new things and deepen in understanding. In a way, i feel the book built up false hopes. Healing is also equally important.
<Presence> Anyway, this is purely my opinion.
<^john^> :)
<^john^> it is quite inspirational and like what u said transformative.
<Presence> ya true
<^john^> longchen has a deeper understanding of Presence now. :)
<Presence> oic how come
<^john^>  But, I think, the way of entering Presence is not clearly described in his book. And I think, he also mistaken 'I AM/pure observer' for pure awareness.
<Presence> icic
<Presence> But, I think, the way of entering Presence is not clearly described in his book. --> how come ?
<^john^> I don't have the book. :)
<Presence> huh???
<Presence> eckhart tolle's book leh
<^john^> yeah...i read it when my cousin passed it to me. :)
<Presence> oh
<Presence> u read how many pages
<Presence> hahaha
<Presence> ur cousin is buddhist isit
<^john^> yes...sort of
<Presence> oic
<Presence> then u read how many pages
<^john^> but he told me a lot about him so i told him to pass me the book.
<Presence> orh icic
<^john^> i enjoy reading it..
<Presence> oic
<^john^> but it cannot present the 'gist' of Presence. :)
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> It has presented it in the pure sense of existence manner.
<Presence> words like 'Being'?
<^john^> nope...
<^john^> how dogen present it?
<Presence> not sure
<Presence> :P
<^john^> you know about vipassana meditation?
<Presence> read a few articles about it
<Presence> but still i dun know much about it
<^john^> ic.
<Presence> more like observing each thought etc?
<Presence> or feeling the breathing?
<^john^> it is more about noticing the moment.
<^john^> even sensing ur feet touching the ground
<Presence> hmm eckhart tolle does speak of directing attention to the mental emotional state, direct attention to body, etc
<^john^> yes
<^john^> but that is not the part i m toking about. :)
<Presence> oic
<^john^> what is exactly the luminosity and clarity about?
<^john^> and what is emptiness?
<Presence> knowing without grasping?
<^john^> and when the 2 becomes one, what is it in a single blow...
<^john^> nope.
<^john^> don't tell u. :P
<Presence> lol
<^john^> What is this in expressible 'Presence'?
<^john^> :)
<^john^> what is meant by hearing without a hearer in its most vivid form?
<Presence> becoming the hearing itself
<Presence> ?
<^john^> every moment is in complete absorption, but what is it?
<^john^> It is no good to speculate. :)
<^john^> it will become an obstruction of ur progress.



Session Start: Wed Apr 19 21:51:33 2006
Session Ident: JavaIRC
Session Ident: JavaIRC ([email protected])

<JavaIRC> why do u change ur nick to Presence?
<JavaIRC> :)
<Presence> cos eckhart tolle's book mentions it quite often :P
<JavaIRC> lol
<JavaIRC> :)
<Presence> haha y u suddenly ask
<JavaIRC> there are few things u need to know about presence. :P
<Presence> oic.. wat are they
<JavaIRC> when a person is free from symbols and labels, he becomes intuitive, direct and natural.
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> the sense of individuality disappears.  What comes next?
<Presence> hmm
<Presence> awareness becomes clear?
<JavaIRC> have not but there is a high degree of clarity.
<Presence> wat u mean by have not?
<Presence> there is still another stage u mean?
<JavaIRC> Yes.
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> There is the experience of Presence.
<JavaIRC> even "I Amness" is an experience of Presence.
<Presence> oic
<JavaIRC> however at this stage, one will be able and understand non-dual with certain depth.
<Presence> icic..
<JavaIRC> directness will eliminate the illusion of subject-object division. :)
<Presence> icic
<Presence> ya
<JavaIRC> so what is the next step?
<Presence> dunno
<Presence> realise the emptiness nature?
<JavaIRC> yes. :)
<JavaIRC> the no-self is just the first level. :)
<JavaIRC> this is what that might be troubling longchen.
<Presence> no-self refering to non-individuality?
<JavaIRC> vedanta and meditative experience.
<JavaIRC> the next deeper understanding is the emptiness nature.
<Presence> icic ya
<JavaIRC> does a fish has the same experience of sight on the same thing as we do?
<JavaIRC> even without imputing labels and concepts?
<Presence> no
<JavaIRC> this is condition arising
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> even if one is without labels, symbols, concepts, no object and subject differentiation
<JavaIRC> presence is unique from moment to moment
<JavaIRC> always pure because it is free from labels
<Presence> icic..
<Presence> oh ya
<JavaIRC> but one might not know emptiness nature.
<Presence> ven sheng yen said something about chuang tzu
<Presence> hold on
<Presence> http://www.chan1.org/ddp/channews/10-1987.html
<Presence> In early Chinese literature there was a Taoist philosopher named Chuang-tzu. One day he was talking to another philosopher, Hui Shih, and they were both standing on a bridge overlooking a river.
<Presence> Chuang-tzu said, "Look at the fish, see how happy they are." Hui Shih replied, "You're not a fish -- how do you know how happy they are?" Chuang-tzu countered, "You're not me, how do you know that I don't know how happy the fish are?"
<Presence> These two men had very different perspectives. Chuang-tzu is at one with the fish, and really knows what they are feeling. Hui Shih still discriminates between himself and the fish, so he has no idea how they feel.
<Presence> There's a Ch'an story concerning two partriarchs, Ma-tzu and Pai-chang. These two masters were walking, when a flock of geese flew over them. The elder patriarch asked Pai-chang, "What was that?" Pai-chang replied, "Those are wild geese." Ma-tzu then asked, "What about now?" And
<Presence> Pai-chang said, "They've flown away." Ma-tzu grabbed Pai-chang's nose, squeezed very hard, and demanded, "They flew away?" Pai-chang's nose really hurt, and he started to cry, but then he started to laugh uproariously. People thought he went crazy.
<Presence> At the beginning of their walk, when the geese first flew over them, what they saw was different. But at the end of the story they were both seeing the same thing. When Ma-tzu saw the geese, he saw them, as we say in Ch'an, with "no coming, no going, no dying, no being born" -- how then could he say that the geese flew away? When Pai-chang first saw the geese, he had the mind of
<Presence> discrimination. When the geese flew away, his mind flew away with them. But when Ma-tzu grabbed Pai-chang's nose, Ma-tzu brought Pai-chang's mind back. When the pain was great enough, Pai-chang was right there again. He saw for himself that he was unmoving, that the geese were
<Presence> unmoving. His tears and his laughter were both expressions of his joy. In the beginning they had different eyes, but in the end their eyes were the same.
<Presence> The experience of these patriarchs is different from the story of Chang-tzu and Hui Shih. Chang-tzu was at one with nature, but he was still moving with nature. Ma-tzu was also at one with nature, but his mind was not moving, therefore, nature was not moving for him.
<Presence> i dun understand the part where ven sheng yen said how chuang tzu is different from ma tzu
<JavaIRC> wait that is the 3rd level of presence. :)
<Presence> ??
<Presence> hmm come to tink about it i tink i understood wat ven sheng yen said liao
<Presence> :P
<JavaIRC> hmm....what do u think he meant?
<Presence> brb
<Presence> back
<Presence> well for ma tzu he was not brought away by the flying geese
<Presence> bcos he cld see the emptiness nature of it?
<JavaIRC> nope. :P
<Presence> oic then
<JavaIRC> u remember once u ask me how do i know whether eckhart tolles has the same sort of buddhism enlightenment.
<Presence> in forum or in irc
<JavaIRC> in irc.
<Presence> i tink so
<JavaIRC> my reply is the answer will become a hurdle for u later. :)
<Presence> huh?
<Presence> cant remember that
<JavaIRC> lol
<JavaIRC> anyway even when one understand non-duality, it is not necessary that he/she has understood emptiness nature of reality. :)
<Presence> oic
<Presence> ya
<JavaIRC> even he experienced the dissolving of individuality.
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> because of this emptiness nature, do not separate awareness from phenomenon arising.
<JavaIRC> awareness has no-self, it is always otherness
<JavaIRC> this is, that is
<Presence> icic
<Presence> ya
<JavaIRC> the third is this emptiness nature when experience with non-dual luminosity must turn into the uncondition, abiding presence
<JavaIRC> spontaneously luminous arising movement
<Presence> what does it mean by abiding presence
<JavaIRC> it is a perfect sense of luminous clarity that is always there.
<Presence> icic
<Presence> wait
<Presence> what is the second?
<JavaIRC> but at this level, nothing is analysed from its parts.
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> when a person speaks at this level, it is always speaking of the oneness and wholeness
<JavaIRC> unconditioned, pure, abiding presence, permanence...etc
<JavaIRC> all is from this level, not picking a certain part.
<Presence> oic
<Presence> so this is why mahaparinirvana sutras etc came about?
<JavaIRC> it is always from an inseparable wholeness
<JavaIRC> yes
<Presence> oic
<Presence> but wait whats the second level?
<Presence> [22:28] <JavaIRC> wait that is the 3rd level of presence. :) -->
<Presence> u referring to this level rite -- > [22:42] <JavaIRC> unconditioned, pure, abiding presence, permanence...etc
<JavaIRC> yes.
<Presence> oic
<Presence> and that’s the 'highest' level rite
<Presence> :P
<Presence> lol
<JavaIRC> second is the all is emptiness.
<Presence> oic
<JavaIRC> the 3 level of turnings
<JavaIRC> the 3 dharma seals
<Presence> and the first level?
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> non-duality without symbols.
<JavaIRC> so don't mistaken hah
<Presence> oic
<Presence> u mean
<Presence> theravada is about non-duality without symbols?
<Presence> or rather
<Presence> the 4 noble truths
<JavaIRC> nope. :)
<Presence> then
<JavaIRC> do not differentiate, theravada has the same teaching too but misunderstood.
<Presence> oic misunderstood in what ways
<Presence> but wait
<Presence> u are equating the 3 levels with the 3 level of turnings rite?
<Presence> then in that case isn’t 'non-duality without symbols' = 4 noble truths :P
<JavaIRC> during the journey of enlightenment, there is really no clear line of demarcation.
<Presence> oic
<JavaIRC> it is only for convenience sake that we said so.
<JavaIRC> just like we say failure is the mother of success :P
<JavaIRC> it is the beginning of success
<JavaIRC> to be successful, failure is the seed.
<JavaIRC> it is an entire process
<JavaIRC> when we pick and analyse section of it, division occurs.
<JavaIRC> :)
<Presence> icic..

<JavaIRC> much is spoken about the gap between the two moments of thoughts
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> the non-duality that I told u.
<Presence> oic
<JavaIRC> wait...solve some math problems for my wife. :)
<Presence> haha
<Presence> ok
<JavaIRC> back
<Presence> hi
<JavaIRC> anyway the third level of presence must undergo first and second level of understanding.
<Presence> oic..
<JavaIRC> most ppl enter the non-dual and mistaken that they have reached the ultimate.
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> if that experience abiding presence, then it is
<Presence> oic
<Presence> so
<JavaIRC> unfortunately the presence doesn't stay because it wasn't purified by the emptiness truth.
<Presence> ppl like eckhart tolle
<JavaIRC> so the understanding isn't thorough
<Presence> even though they speak of 'presence'
<Presence> it’s quite different from the '3rd level Presence'?
<JavaIRC> it is the non-dual aspect. :)
<Presence> but anyway i tot u said hinduism focused too much on Presence?
<Presence> icic
<JavaIRC> luminosity
<Presence> orh icic
<JavaIRC> not too much on presence
<Presence> icic..
<JavaIRC> having said that, true understanding must come from direct experiences.
<JavaIRC> it is only a guide.
<JavaIRC> to prevent one from being misled.
<Presence> oic
<Presence> ya
<JavaIRC> but u must also know that each level is a matter of degree of luminosity and clarity
<Presence> icic

<JavaIRC> even one is experiences non-dual, there is subtle attachment to 'form'
<JavaIRC> the transcendental experience that he/she experiences
<Presence> icic..
<Presence> what kind of form
<JavaIRC> like the analogy about the fish and us, even without conceptual fabrications, presence does not take any form even for a moment.
<Presence> icic..
<JavaIRC> so seeing What Is, Is seeing emptiness
<JavaIRC> Presence is so.
<JavaIRC> u get what i mean eh?
<Presence> tink so
<Presence> ya
<JavaIRC> i m speaking from the perspective of a person even he experiences non-duality
<JavaIRC> but have not experience emptiness
<Presence> icic..
<JavaIRC> without seeing emptiness, Presence is not true.
<Presence> icic
Session Close: Thu Apr 20 00:21:35 2006


Session Start: Fri May 12 00:50:26 2006
Session Ident: ^john^
Session Ident: ^john^ ([email protected])
<^john^> the url?
<Presence> http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=185686
<^john^> what was ur earlier question again?
<Presence> [00:39] <Presence> ---
<Presence> [00:39] <Presence> according to Eckhart Tolle in several places in the book, a person may need to go through intense sufferings before being 'forced' into living in the
<Presence> [00:39] <Presence> present moment, and thereby attaining enlightenment. which is somewhat like Eckhart Tolle's own case himself.
<Presence> [00:39] <Presence> and i also want to ask, how come some ppl like Eckhart Tolle although never knew any spiritual teachings, then suddenly became enlightened through
<Presence> [00:39] <Presence> intense suffering? Why do other ppl who are suicidal never become enlightened? lol
<Presence> [00:39] <Presence> ------------
<Presence> and so u were saying, most ppl start to inquire only after some sort of intense sufferings?
<^john^> That is just the first direct perception of consciousness
<Presence> icic
<^john^> but very soon the experience is being distorted.
<^john^> LongChen has similar experience too.
<Presence> oic..
<^john^> and only the luminosity aspect.
<^john^> to break-through and have a more thorough understanding of the luminosity aspect, no-self must be experienced.
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> the death of the individuality.
<Presence> oic
<^john^> means the clarity of no-personality and individuality but not emptiness nature.
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> if we are able to rest in this stage, it is already a great achievement.
<Presence> icic
<^john^> this is a non-dual mode.
<Presence> oic
<Presence> ya
<^john^> and when the mind becomes mirror bright, supernatural power might occur as a result of the luminosity with concentration. :)
<^john^> but not to dwell in that stage.
<Presence> eckhart tolle got supernatural power meh
<Presence> lol
<^john^> it is only in buddhism that the condition-arising is taught.
<Presence> hmm ya
<^john^> that is the way towards true liberation
<^john^> hinduism taught the luminosity aspect in deep detail but why is it mistaken as 'Self'?
<Presence> my taiwanese teacher since a long time ago was v v powerful in supernatural power, but my shi fu ask him not to dwell on that until wisdom arises
<^john^> yes
<Presence> hmm bcos no emptiness teaching?
<^john^> buddha knows this stage very well and know what is not seen by them.
<Presence> oic..
<^john^> it is prajna wisdom that liberates
<^john^> but it also requires this luminosity, this non-dual mode to understand emptiness.
<^john^> it is not a form of knowledge.
<Presence> icic
<Presence> so u're saying must first 'enter' the non-dual mode then to realise emptiness?
<^john^> for true realisation of emptiness to occur.
<Presence> icic
<^john^> it springs from within
<^john^> not as a form of knowledge.
<^john^> but first grasped in the form of concept of what is emptiness
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> when is absorbed in the seeing, it is just the pure sensation, the abiding of presence that knows.
<^john^> it is that 'knowing' that can understand emptiness.
<Presence> oic
<Presence> but that 'knowing' by itself has not yet understood emptiness?
<^john^> not a form of knowledge that result from measurement and comparisons.
<Presence> icic
<^john^> there is a form of knowing  that is direct and intuitive, it comes from being one with the subject.
<Presence> icic
<Presence> ya the 'non-dual' mode
<Presence> ?
<^john^> it knows by being one and totally involved and being absorbed.
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> letting the sensation slowly emerges but every bit is real, direct, vivid and clear.
<^john^> just like love.
<Presence> oic..
<^john^> when consciousness is free from 'self', it is always otherness
<^john^> when something arises and there is no-self, is it ur thoughts or mine?
<Presence> neither
<^john^> pathie is no more the moderator?
<^john^> :)
<Presence> ya she rather busy.. anyway she didn’t really want to be moderator also la.. got ask me a few times
<Presence> u wan to be moderator? :P
<^john^> of course not. I will be worse than her. :)
<Presence> haha y
<^john^> no time and do not wish to end up in a tongue fight. :P
<Presence> oic
<Presence> kk
<^john^> but all of ya are really helpful :)
<Presence> :P
<^john^> have u read anything about cittamatra?
<Presence> nope
<Presence> what about cittamatra
<^john^> hmm...u know what is rang tong and shen tong?
<Presence> heard b4
<Presence> is it one emphasize more on buddha nature
<Presence> the other emphasize more on emptiness
<Presence> tibetan buddhism
<^john^> one emphasize that buddha nature is not empty but other than our nature, all is empty.
<Presence> the first or the second
<^john^> the other, all is empty including our buddha nature.
<Presence> [01:25] <^john^> one emphasize that buddha nature is not empty but other than our nature, all is empty. --> rang tong or sheng tong?
<Presence> so wat u support? :P
<Presence> second?
<^john^> shen tong is other empty
<Presence> icic
<^john^> rang tong is all empty
<Presence> oic
<Presence> so wat u tink
<^john^> both to me are right. :) Been meditating on it..:)
<Presence> how is it that both are right?
<^john^> this is just my experience. :)
<^john^> there is no need to be afraid to eliminate till none.
<Presence> hmm but isn’t the two views contradictory?
<Presence> how come both are right?
<^john^> how should i say. :P
<^john^> wait...
<Presence> ok
<^john^> do u know which one is the more accepted view?
<Presence> i tink tibetan sects support different isit
<Presence> nyingma more on sheng tong - gelug more on rang tong?
<^john^> not really, i tink rang tong is the more accepted view.
<^john^> but i prefer the sheng tong. :)
<Presence> oic why?
<^john^> coz when luminosity + emptiness is experienced, it is just as what is being described.
<Presence> oic
<Presence> then what about rangtong
<^john^> but all empty is also important and all language are incapable of expressing the ultimate and has to be negated.
<Presence> oic..
<^john^> it is important here to know one point and I believe there is a reason to it.
<^john^> wait...change vcds
<Presence> u watching show?
<Presence> what point?
<^john^> yeah
<^john^> duan chang jian (break the view of eternalism)
<^john^> :P
<Presence> oic
<^john^> it is because emptiness is a healthy negation if we understand correctly
<Presence> icic.
<^john^> u know about taoism
<Presence> icic..
<Presence> ya?
<^john^> i told u about eliminate until none
<Presence> yea
<^john^> coz true taoist masters know that it will reach tao
<^john^> and come to the experience of the true power of self-so.
<^john^> zhi ran
<^john^> a strength that just grows by itself
<^john^> self arise
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> naturally luminous
<Presence> oic
<^john^> so the elimination is based on such understanding because they know it.
<^john^> they have already experienced it.
<Presence> oic
<^john^> so they are not afraid to tell their followers to eliminate till none.
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> as long as it is not theoretical and they truly practice, they will know.
<^john^> tao must be experienced in its self-so.
<Presence> eliminate till none - isn’t that wat buddhism calls 'purification of mind'?
<^john^> yes
<Presence> icic
<^john^> purification as in emptiness leh
<Presence> icic
<^john^> but shentong isn't wrong too.
<^john^> without positive language, not many can understand.
<Presence> oic..
<^john^> but we should not mistake it as self.
<Presence> icic
<^john^> 'Self' is cause of suffering
<^john^> whatever stage we are in.
<^john^> so careful use of the word is necessary.
<Presence> oic..
<^john^> we can reached that stage of non-dual mode but still the emptiness nature is not understood.
<^john^> and instead of seeing conditioned-arising, we see 'Self'.
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> this is the fall.
<Presence> oic
<^john^> but do not put sheng tong and rang tong into discussion. :)
<Presence> hahahah
<Presence> i wont
<Presence> but anyway why?
<Presence> i dun tink many ppl in sgforums will discuss that kind of topic anyway :P
<^john^> :)
<Presence> hmm i mean
<Presence> why cannot discuss sheng tong and rang tong
<^john^> it can be discussed of course.
<^john^> just that i do not ppl to get over excited and make unnecessary comments due to their practices.
<Presence> oic..
<Presence> the shen tong and rang tong thing -
<Presence> does these split in view exists in traditions other than vajrayana/tibetan?
<Presence> like chinese mahayana? or even theravada?
<^john^> it is not good to make negative comments and remarks on enlightened ppl.
<Presence> oic
<^john^> got to go now...take care. :)
<Presence> ok
No such nickname
<^john^> u have Eckhart Tolle's
<^john^> Stillness speak?
<Presence> yea
<Presence> i finished reading quite some time ago
<Presence> y?
<Presence> eh btw
<Presence> i wanna ask u
<Presence> where u got ur toni packer's books from?
<Presence> cos i suspect it isn’t on singapore bookshelves
<^john^> was 'Stillness Speaks' written at a later date?
<Presence> written in 2003 - but is mainly compilation of short verses that eckhart tolle has gathered in his notebook over the years
<Presence> much like a sutra
<^john^> her books are really popular, i think i got it from taka.
<Presence> oic when ?
<^john^> 1.5 yrs back
<Presence> icic
<Presence> which book u bought
<^john^> So stillness speaks will written after the power of now?
<^john^> the wonder of presence
<Presence> anyway the newest book by eckhart tolle is i tink A New Earth
<Presence> i tink 2005?
<Presence> that one very popular
<Presence> almost as popular as the power of now
<Presence> i haven’t got that bcos i didn’t see it
<^john^> the wonder of presence?
<Presence> the wonder of presence icic.. been looking for that.. will try to find it elsewhere
<^john^> the clarity of no-self, to me is expressed pretty well by her.
<Presence> oic..
<^john^> though not as inspiring.
<Presence> icic
<^john^> i have not read any book about thusness. :)
<Presence> u reading anything currently?
<Presence> isit?
<Presence> how come
<Presence> u write lor
<Presence> hehehe
<^john^> of course not. :P
<^john^> nothing can be written about it maybe...:)
<Presence> oic y
<^john^> only found in sutra and poem.
<Presence> oic like wat poems
<Presence> and wat sutras
<^john^> i like cittamatra teachings. :)
<Presence> oic
<^john^> but there is something lacking.
<Presence> wat is it
<^john^> thusness lor...
<Presence> ooh
<Presence> hmm then are there any poems or sutras that wrote about thusness?
<^john^> u can look into Dogen Zenji's teaching.
<Presence> icic..
<^john^> it depends on individual really.
<^john^> :)
<Presence> oic
<^john^> how u find the stillness speaks?
<Presence> quite gd - but if i had the choice i wld have gotten new earth first
<^john^> why?
<Presence> stillness speaks is comparably in length - and more like a lot of short verses
<Presence> *comparably shorter in length
<Presence> hmm well depends on what u like hehe
<^john^> :)
<Presence> so
<^john^> i like true real practical 'experience' even it doesn't sync with what i experienced. :)
<Presence> u going anywhere for vesak tmr?
<Presence> oic..
<^john^> today.
<^john^> :P
<Presence> ya today
<Presence> :P
<^john^> bring my kids out.
<Presence> icic
<^john^> got to go now...take care. :)
<Presence> ok
<Presence> gnite
No such nickname
Session Close: Fri May 12 02:42:38 2006

(7:14 PM) John:    and don't deviate from buddhism.
(7:14 PM) AEN:    kk
(7:14 PM) AEN:    oic
(7:14 PM) AEN:    deviate from buddhism as in?
(7:14 PM) John:    the 3 seals.
(7:14 PM) AEN:    but if introduce books like eckhart tolle's is ok rite?
(7:14 PM) AEN:    oic
(7:15 PM) John:    i think eckhart tolle's book is quite inspiring.  The depth of experience is there.  Just that i can sync with toni's experience.
(7:16 PM) John:    The clarity and the questions she asked, i deeply sync with her.
(7:16 PM) AEN:    icic..
(7:16 PM) AEN:    oic
(7:16 PM) AEN:    eckhart tolle's depth of experience is there?
(7:16 PM) John:    I hope the next book has what i want. :)
(7:16 PM) AEN:    oic wat u want
(7:17 PM) John:    eckhart tolle's yes.  But i think not to Toni's level.  That is my opinion.  Toni's is almost mirror bright.  But I just cannot understand certain thing.
(7:18 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:18 PM) AEN:    cannot understand wat
(7:18 PM) John:    about emptiness, there is something not there.
(7:18 PM) John:    initially i thought it should be a natural progression.


(8:29 PM) John:    many ppl can only write until the level what toni wrote.... I am looking for some non locality experiences.
(8:31 PM) AEN:    back
(8:32 PM) AEN:    wat do u mean by non locality experiences
(8:32 PM) AEN:    and why is it that many ppl can only write until wat toni wrote?
(8:35 PM) John:    zen masters have that level of clarity.  As for lay, seldom do i see ppl having that clarity.  It is therefore difficult for people to write about anything after he/she 
reaches that level of clarity.  Unfortunately, real zen masters doesn't speak much. :)
(8:35 PM) John:    when u listen, the sound is out there....how far can we hear?
(8:36 PM) AEN:    as in physical distant?
(8:36 PM) John:    yes
(8:37 PM) AEN:    dunnu leh need measurement.. haha.. on the relative level
(8:37 PM) John:    lol
(8:37 PM) John:    wait for the books to be out lah...
(8:37 PM) AEN:    huh??
(8:39 PM) AEN:    so u mean toni packer didnt spoke of non locality
(8:39 PM) John:    i do not know. Dunno she experience or not. :P
(8:39 PM) AEN:    http://www.heartspace.org/misc/IndraNet.html
(8:39 PM) AEN:   

4. Non-locality

Indra's Net shoots holes in the assumption or imputation of a solid and fixed universe 'out there'. The capacity of one jewel to reflect the light of another jewel from the other edge of  
infinity is something that is difficult for the linear mind, rational mind to comprehend. The fact that all nodes are simply reflections indicates that there is no particular single source  
point from where it all arises.
(8:39 PM) AEN:    so have u read any books that spoke about non locality
(8:40 PM) John:    this is interesting...
(8:40 PM) AEN:    avatamasaka sutra.
(8:40 PM) AEN:    and indra's net
(8:41 PM) AEN:    http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=129929
(8:44 PM) John:    have u watched superman?
(8:44 PM) AEN:    yea
(8:45 PM) John:    there is a part where he raise above the earth atmosphere and listen....he hears all...
(8:45 PM) John:    i like that part.
(8:45 PM) John:    :)
(8:45 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:45 PM) AEN:    how come
(8:45 PM) John:    just like lah...
(8:45 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:45 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:46 PM) AEN:    like guan yin :P
(8:46 PM) John:    yes. :)
(8:46 PM) AEN:    my shi fu said something like... which i didnt quite understand... when u practise until certain level, in another universe, when a flower blossom u will know
(8:46 PM) AEN:    cant remember isit exactly it
(8:46 PM) AEN:    i tink not referring to supernatural powers
(8:47 PM) John:    ur shi fu is who?
(8:47 PM) AEN:    ven shen kai
(8:47 PM) John:    sheng kai?
(8:47 PM) John:    okie.
(8:47 PM) AEN:    teacher chen is his dharma successor in charge of transmitting some important dharmas
(8:48 PM) John:    ic...then li zhu teacher?
(8:48 PM) AEN:    yup
(8:48 PM) AEN:    oh
(8:48 PM) AEN:    local teacher
(8:48 PM) John:    so when u say shi fu, u r normally referring to ven sheng kai?
(8:48 PM) AEN:    yea
(8:48 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:48 PM) John:    ic. :)
(8:48 PM) AEN:    truthz maybe call 'shi gong'
(8:48 PM) AEN:    cos different side
(8:49 PM) AEN:    bcos li zhu lao shi is not chu jia
(8:49 PM) John:    ic
(9:02 PM) AEN:    "guan yin's practise is 'er gen yuan tong', whatever world has sentient beings calling for him, he will hear and save them. therefore if we are to attain buddhahood in this 
world, even if there is a flower blossoming in another universe, we will know immediately, then we will attain budhahood'
(9:02 PM) AEN:    i tink he mention about flower blossoming in another universe somewhere else too
(9:03 PM) AEN:    in the 'kai shi lu' series
(9:03 PM) John:    ic.  You are very resourceful. :)
(9:04 PM) AEN:    haha cos i just listen to this again recently
(9:04 PM) AEN:    so i remember
(9:04 PM) John:    ic
(9:08 PM) AEN:    guan yin can listen cos he can access 'the ocean of self-nature'
(9:08 PM) AEN:    is it some kind of supernatural power?
(9:09 PM) John:    this might be possible through deep clarity....it relates to clearing of fetters.
(9:09 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:09 PM) John:    but like i said, not for u to delve into it now. :P

Session Start: Monday, August 07, 2006

(5:33 PM) John:    There is a chapter in the "A New Earth" where Eckhart Tolle mentioned about, touching a cup or anything, be without thoughts and not naming anything, then senses it...did u 
read about that?

(5:37 PM) John:    i read in borders the other day.
(5:37 PM) AEN:    o icic
(5:37 PM) AEN:    y wat about tat
(5:38 PM) John:    That to me is a really important chapter. :)

(7:03 PM) John:    actually it is important to experience the "I AMness"
(7:03 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:04 PM) John:    i find that people having such experiences have more profound understanding of the teaching of Buddha if they are able to humble themselves down.
(7:04 PM) AEN:    oic
(7:04 PM) John:    Because these are the people that are in the best position to tell if they go beyond that stage...
(7:04 PM) John:    it is a natural progression.
(7:04 PM) John:    and Buddha I would say knows this problem and is one that has gone through similar process.

(7:23 PM) John:    wah...eckhart now become like a world teacher.
(7:23 PM) AEN:    haha y?
(7:23 PM) AEN:    yea true
(7:24 PM) AEN:    his books are v popular... wonder how come
(7:24 PM) AEN:    but also nice to read la
(7:25 PM) John:    writing from personal experience and very inspirational. :)
(7:25 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:27 PM) AEN:    gtg.. cya
(7:27 PM) John:    cya

(12:19 AM) John:    close ur eyes and feel anything like what eckhart tolle, and feel anything...feel the hardness of the floor...like in mindfulness, is that 'hardness' urs or mine or
the floor?
(12:21 AM) AEN:    neither
(12:21 AM) John:    :)
(12:21 AM) John:    if u go beyond labels and become imageless, there will be arising.
(12:22 AM) John:    when one is not attached to the arising, one penetrates into the object
(12:23 AM) John:    the heart of the object is consciousness

(11:52 PM) John: I would rather read Eckhart Tolle's book. :)
(11:52 PM) AEN: lol
(11:53 PM) John: something as simple as touching a cup would tell him his depth of experience and where exactly he is.
(11:53 PM) AEN: so u're saying d.t.suzuki's translation is quite ok
(11:53 PM) AEN: icic
(11:54 PM) John: and i can tell u at least 4 chapters of lankavatara is toking about this point. :)
(11:54 PM) John: of course not on the emptiness point. :)
(11:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:55 PM) John: Eckhart Tolle a new earth and practical approach towards the experience the now moment will lead u to the explanation of at least the first 4 chapters. :)
(11:55 PM) AEN: icic...
(11:56 PM) AEN: then after tat?
(11:56 PM) John: sorry first 6 chapters
(11:56 PM) AEN: oic
(11:56 PM) John: only the part on manifestation of emptiness is lacking though it spoke about manifestation.
(11:57 PM) John: and one knows that just by reading that, where exactly he is at. 

(12:04 AM) John: and i have been reading it and trying to express it in my own way.
(12:04 AM) John: :)
(12:04 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:06 AM) John: there are not many that can have that sort of clarity with authentic experiences and still bother to write to explain it.
(12:07 AM) John: Krishnamutri is one
(12:07 AM) John: Eckhart Tolle is simple, direct and practical.
(12:07 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:08 AM) AEN: krishnamurti understands emptiness?

(12:08 AM) AEN: what u mean by 'clarity and authentic experience'? u said there are many levels of enlightenment ?
(12:08 AM) John: it is not about emptiness, it is their experience.
(12:08 AM) AEN: oic

(12:10 AM) John: Zen practices, Dogen is good and many zen masters poems are beautiful.  
(12:11 AM) John: For tibetan buddhism, i like yogacara.

(12:11 AM) John: it is really difficult to find one that has the clarity of expression of what that is beyond symbols.

(12:13 AM) John: and is completely clear about the the anatta concept.

(12:14 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:14 AM) AEN: sorry the title of his book is 'i am that'
(12:15 AM) John: toni packer too...but can write like eckhart tolle.

(12:16 AM) John: Any good books written by Dogen?
(12:18 AM) AEN: not too sure.. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590300246/sr=1-9/qid=1155140179/ref=sr_1_9/102-2935529-0357719?ie=UTF8&s=books ?

(11:59 AM) John:    i like the One Taste [by Ken Wilber].
(11:59 AM) John:    he calls all those ppl that commented on his work morons.
(11:59 AM) John:    :P
(11:59 AM) John:    lol
(11:59 AM) John:    negative comments i mean
(11:59 AM) AEN:    wahahah
(11:59 AM) AEN:    how come
(11:59 AM) John:    too petty...
(11:59 AM) AEN:    lol
(12:00 PM) John:    coz they don't understand him....he is human after all :P
(12:00 PM) John:    u can see his struggles
(12:00 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(12:00 PM) John:    his journey towards enlightenment...
(12:00 PM) John:    lol
(12:00 PM) AEN:    oic
(12:01 PM) John:    actually i like eckhart tolle's book.
(12:02 PM) John:    though i see that the experience is not as thorough.
(12:02 PM) John:    i think it is safer. :)
(12:02 PM) AEN:    ic..
(12:03 PM) AEN:    safer? how come
(12:03 PM) John:    certain experiences should is considered quite dangerous and can cause a lot of harm.
(12:04 PM) John:    only very qualified masters can teach these methods.
(12:04 PM) John:    because the experience is considered a form of altered state of consciousness, it can be dangerous....
(12:04 PM) AEN:    oic...
(12:05 PM) AEN:    like wat kind of experience
(12:05 PM) John:    i think experiencing presence in dreamless and dream stage should not be taught....rather only emptiness nature of manifestation...
(12:06 PM) John:    and then should only focus on compassion, wisdom, equanimity, patience
(12:06 PM) AEN:    oic..
(12:06 PM) John:    just these...don't long for experiences...it will come naturally...when the time is right.
(12:06 PM) AEN:    icic
(12:06 PM) John:    wisdom is not the stages of meditation...
(12:08 PM) John:    when our attachments diminishes and wisdom (the bond of the symbols dissolve) grows, we will experience our radiance presence naturally and propel to all relevant phases of the dream and dreamless state.
(12:09 PM) John:    there is no need to do anything....to be over anxious over certain achievement and stage is extremely dangerous.

(1:16 PM) John:    initially i wanted to buy ken wilber's book...but i think photocopy can liao. :P
(1:16 PM) John:    just the one taste and theory of everything
(1:16 PM) AEN:    lol
(1:16 PM) John:    coz more of hinduism than buddhist
(1:16 PM) AEN:    oic
(1:16 PM) AEN:    how u photocopy?
(1:16 PM) AEN:    library?
(1:17 PM) John:    i m looking for books that is beyond anatta and brings into the view of emptiness with non centricity and non-locality
(1:17 PM) John:    i wonder any practitioner has experienced that and put it into words. :P
(1:17 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:17 PM) AEN:    so far none?
(1:17 PM) AEN:    ken wilber also never write?
(1:17 PM) John:    not so much of beyond the experience of no-self but more of one that thoroughly understand no-self
(1:18 PM) AEN:    oic
(1:18 PM) John:    and yet experience the essence of emptiness nature intuitively
(1:18 PM) AEN:    icic
(1:21 PM) John:    books like eckhart tolle will be good.  Never over emphasize anything
(1:21 PM) AEN:    oic..
(1:21 PM) John:    clear simple and lucid
(1:21 PM) AEN:    icic
(1:21 PM) John:    but i am looking for something more than that.
(1:22 PM) John:    anyone that has thorough experienced no-self for few years, i am interested....eheheh

(12:26 AM) John: sitting meditation is important, it will help u still ur mind and heighten ur awareness
(12:26 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:29 AM) John: u must learn to still ur body first, the experience similar to the lower half of ur body must be extend to the whole body.
(12:29 AM) AEN: oic
(12:29 AM) AEN: must i reach some sort of jhana experience first for tat to happen?
(12:29 AM) John: it is often easier the first time...hehe....
(12:30 AM) AEN: how come
(12:30 AM) AEN: hahaha
(12:30 AM) John: then when u are able to still ur body, just motionless and when u sit, its is stable and still
(12:30 AM) John: it then comes to the mind
(12:31 AM) John: to watch the breath and settle ur thoughts
(12:31 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:31 AM) John: practice this until u can calm ur thoughts
(12:32 AM) John: through ur breath  
(12:32 AM) AEN: icic
(12:32 AM) John: once u r able to still ur thoughts or settle ur thoughts, then start to be aware....
(12:33 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:33 AM) John: until u feel the full presence of ur sensation, taste, touch..etc
(12:34 AM) John: sense them....
(12:34 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:34 AM) John: if possible contemplate on what buddhagosha said
(12:34 AM) AEN: oic
(12:35 AM) John: only the thinking, no thinker
(12:35 AM) John: the taste, no one tasting
(12:35 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:35 AM) John: till directness arises
(12:35 AM) AEN: oic
(12:35 AM) John: keep practicing this if possible in the morning...heehe or afternoon...not night.  
(12:35 AM) AEN: why not night
(12:35 AM) AEN: cos tired?
(12:36 AM) John: no good
(12:36 AM) John: only in the morning or evening
(12:36 AM) AEN: y not night.. lol
(12:36 AM) John: till u r able to control ur thought pattern
(12:36 AM) AEN: oic
(12:37 AM) John: at night just relax and do what u do...lol...irc...msn...forum.  
(12:37 AM) AEN: lol ok
(12:37 AM) John: during waking state, practice mindfulness
(12:38 AM) John: when ur feet touches the floor...
(12:38 AM) John: when ur hand touches anything...spend time...just like what eckhart tolle said in the power of now and a new earth.
(12:38 AM) John: when u swallow ur saliva.  
(12:39 AM) AEN: oic...
(12:39 AM) John: feel the sensation completely...
(12:39 AM) AEN: icic
(12:39 AM) John: then relax and don't practice that at night..until morning....till one day u tell me u know what has thought pattern got to do with calmness
(12:40 AM) AEN: oic
(12:40 AM) John: and how awareness is being misidentified with self and what are the relationships
(12:40 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:40 AM) John: what is bliss and clarity
(12:40 AM) AEN: oic
(12:41 AM) John: then when u experience no-self and our pristine awareness and clearly know what is awareness, tell me why is it everything...
(12:41 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:42 AM) John: challenging and going beyond thought can be a painful experience if not practiced correctly.  
(12:43 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:43 AM) John: because we have been using thoughts and it will come  
(12:43 AM) John: so do not under estimate it
(12:43 AM) AEN: oic
(12:44 AM) John: exercise more....
(12:44 AM) John: a healthy body for a healthy mind
(12:44 AM) AEN: icic
(12:44 AM) John: it will help ur practice
(12:44 AM) AEN: icic
(12:45 AM) John: when u r able to experience directly, tell me about it
(12:45 AM) John: when u r able to settle ur thoughts, tell me also...
(12:45 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:46 AM) John: then go to ur centre and engage in activities to keep in touch with dharma.  
(12:46 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:46 AM) AEN: ok
(12:48 AM) John: yeah...in meditation, content of the mind is not important, it is the quality of the mind
(12:48 AM) John: peace, bliss, tranquillity, calmness are not content
(12:49 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:49 AM) John: even in deep relaxation, u do not want to chat in ur mind, u simply let go
(12:49 AM) AEN: oic
(12:49 AM) AEN: ya
(12:50 AM) John: the content and meaning isn't important at all
(12:50 AM) John: u don't have to understand anything
(12:50 AM) John: nothing to understand at all.
(12:50 AM) John: so don't worry
(12:50 AM) John: just the sensation
(12:50 AM) John: the raw sensation
(12:50 AM) AEN: oic
(12:51 AM) John: but for start, u will contemplate
(12:51 AM) John: what is no-self
(12:51 AM) John: what is directness
(12:51 AM) John: what are words
(12:51 AM) AEN: before meditation?
(12:51 AM) AEN: oic
(12:51 AM) John: during meditation, u will sure ask one...
(12:52 AM) AEN: oh ok
(12:52 AM) AEN: icic
(12:52 AM) John: it is okie...but start with the calming the mind first
(12:52 AM) John: before ur contemplate
(12:52 AM) John: when u contemplate, u can also be mindful
(12:52 AM) AEN: icic
(12:52 AM) John: the two can go hand in hand
(12:52 AM) John: it doesn't matter
(12:53 AM) John: when u experience directness, concepts and thoughts will be replaced with directness gradually
(12:53 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:53 AM) John: but u must precede with mindfulness of breath to settle the thoughts first  
(12:53 AM) John: to have mastery over thoughts
(12:54 AM) John: or the ability to settle thoughts through ur breath
(12:54 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:55 AM) John: when is ur exams?
(12:55 AM) AEN: like over 2 weeks from now
(12:55 AM) John: u better start studying...
(12:55 AM) John: lol
(12:55 AM) AEN: yea i know haha
(12:56 AM) AEN: ok gtg.. gd nite
(12:56 AM) John: nite

Session Start: Sunday, August 27, 2006

(12:12 PM) John: Read ur email about the ken wilber page 250.
(12:12 PM) AEN: ok wait
(12:13 PM) AEN: icic
(12:13 PM) John: fulcrum 10 is the peak of no-self and beginning to understand emptiness as it is but not necessarily understood the meaning of emptiness.
(12:13 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:14 PM) John: to date, ken wilber's description of enlightenment is closest to my description.  
(12:14 PM) John: it is from fulcrum 9-10
(12:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:15 PM) John: except that fulcrum 7-9 is waking, dreaming and dreamless is what i told u should not be followed.
(12:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:15 PM) John: let's take longchen for example, from his understanding and my description to him, where do u think i am leading him?
(12:16 PM) AEN: emptienss?  
(12:16 PM) AEN: no-self and emptiness
(12:16 PM) AEN: lol
(12:16 PM) John: yes
(12:16 PM) John: so where was he when he first communicated with u?
(12:16 PM) AEN: i nterms of falcrum?  
(12:17 PM) John: yeah
(12:17 PM) AEN: falcrum 9-1?
(12:17 PM) John: yes
(12:17 PM) John: did he go through 7 and 8?
(12:17 PM) AEN: no
(12:18 PM) John: okie then how is one to experience fulcrum 9?  That is what i disagree. :)
(12:18 PM) John: in fact true enlightenment should only start at 9.
(12:18 PM) John: and a glimpse of our nature starts at 9.
(12:18 PM) AEN: oic
(12:19 PM) AEN: u mean he said otherwise?
(12:19 PM) John: 7 can be the result of mindfulness
(12:19 PM) AEN: which page is 7
(12:19 PM) John: page 7?
(12:19 PM) John: i mean fulcrum 7
(12:19 PM) AEN: oh ok found it
(12:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:20 PM) John: mindfulness can lead us to fulcrum 7.  That is the result of being mindful and non conceptual.
(12:20 PM) John: but our true nature isn't experienced... means there is no this sudden awareness of "I AMness".
(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:21 PM) John: this "I AMness" is a natural progression when the karmic propensities is still very strong and yet there is a sudden glimpse of our nature.
(12:21 PM) AEN: icic
(12:21 PM) John: at that moment, one is not able to discern what is the meaning of no-self
(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:22 PM) John: why no doership and why no I.  Because the experience of that Presence (They experience it as ISness, as Pure Presence but yet still fall back to 'Self') because of karmic propensities and habitual energy.
(12:23 PM) John: They were being misled by the hypnotic spell of 'I'.
(12:23 PM) John: and how to break this spell?
(12:23 PM) John: that is the question.
(12:23 PM) AEN: icic
(12:23 PM) John: the experience is there but there is no clarity, this is the problem.
(12:23 PM) AEN: oic
(12:24 PM) AEN: eh btw page 184 about falcrum 7, there is some sort of nondualism experience?
(12:24 PM) John: so one must know exactly the stage to lead to the next stage by carefully breaking that spell of identification.
(12:24 PM) AEN: 'u're on a nature walk.... and suddenly you look at a beautiful mountain and wham - there is no looker - just the mountain'
(12:24 PM) AEN: icic
(12:24 PM) John: yes that is experience of clarity without knowing the nature.
(12:24 PM) AEN: oic
(12:25 PM) John: it is a stage
(12:25 PM) AEN: not 'i amness'?
(12:25 PM) John: yes..
(12:25 PM) John: means one can experience clarity but has no understanding of AMness.
(12:25 PM) AEN: o hmm last time i tink maybe i experience falcrum 7
(12:25 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:25 PM) John: he must continue to practice
(12:25 PM) AEN: icic
(12:25 PM) John: yeah...
(12:26 PM) John: when u told me about the clarity about the awareness that everything seems so clear and real.
(12:26 PM) John: this is come and go.
(12:26 PM) John: and i told u to see, the scenery but no one there.   
(12:26 PM) AEN: icic
(12:26 PM) John: that is the vividness, the clarity...all these are the attributes of awareness
(12:27 PM) John: now i tell u to experience the calmness to gather strength
(12:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:27 PM) John: stillness of body and mind
(12:27 PM) John: this is tranquility and calmness, not clarity and luminosity
(12:27 PM) AEN: icic
(12:28 PM) John: so one can experience clarity and vividness but the path of enlightenment hasn't start yet.
(12:28 PM) AEN: oic
(12:28 PM) John: there must be this intuitive understanding of "I AM" then it begins.
(12:29 PM) John: like eckhart tolle
(12:29 PM) AEN: icic
(12:29 PM) John: like longchen and ken wilber...all these ppl experience the 'Self'.
(12:29 PM) John: the 'Self' is a misunderstood version.
(12:30 PM) AEN: oic
(12:30 PM) John: When I told longchen first there is no I, no self yet there is Presence, he confused.
(12:30 PM) John: remember?
(12:30 PM) AEN: ya
(12:31 PM) John: then he was thinking can one experience to a high stage but yet is still ignorance of the source...this is the question he asked bob.
(12:31 PM) AEN: oic
(12:31 PM) John: remember?
(12:31 PM) AEN: not too sure
(12:31 PM) AEN: which post?
(12:31 PM) John: hmm....what is his site url>
(12:31 PM) John: heheeh
(12:31 PM) AEN: wait
(12:31 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com
(12:31 PM) John: u r the one that send me the post what.
(12:32 PM) John: kok ur head
(12:32 PM) John: lol
(12:32 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:32 PM) AEN: i mean around when?
(12:53 PM) John: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1118915725
(12:54 PM) John: ahaha....
(12:54 PM) John: me of Me. :)
(12:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:54 PM) John: wah...take so long to look for this post that u send me. :P
(12:55 PM) AEN: yea hahaha... thanks for looking
(12:55 PM) John: « Reply #8 on Oct 24, 2005, 12:39am »
(12:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:56 PM) John: he was asking bob can one be so aligned with vast absolute yet not aware of the thinker of thoughts. :)
(12:57 PM) AEN: oic
(12:57 PM) John: he doesn't dare to ask in religion/sects...:)
(12:57 PM) John: lol
(12:57 PM) AEN: haha why??
(12:57 PM) John: he said so what...
(12:57 PM) AEN: yea i mean y he wldnt dare
(12:58 PM) John: paiseh to ask lah...later say like all ppl in Buddhism forum not enlightened. :P
(12:58 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:58 PM) AEN: icic
(12:59 PM) John: it is important that he breaks through that witness and see it in manifestation, that is exactly what ken wilber said. :)
(12:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:59 PM) John: in fact i borrow his books last week just because i saw this phrase. :P
(1:00 PM) AEN: oh.. icic
(1:00 PM) AEN: haha
(1:00 PM) John: otherwise no value.  
(1:00 PM) AEN: oic
(1:00 PM) John: because it is very common for one to sink back to the source.
(1:00 PM) John: but for his case, it is a bit unique...he dwell completely into manifestation.
(1:00 PM) AEN: icic...
(1:01 PM) John: and he experience witnessing consciousness in all three stages.
(1:01 PM) AEN: oic
(1:01 PM) John: waking, dreaming and dreamless
(1:01 PM) AEN: icic
(1:02 PM) John: but the way he puts it into fulcrum 7 and 8 before 9 is experienced, i can't agree.  
(1:02 PM) John: i think it is not right and dangerous.
(1:02 PM) AEN: how come/
(1:02 PM) John: however i like his books because of his experience.
(1:02 PM) AEN: wait falcrum 8 is...?
(1:03 PM) AEN: falcrum 7 is dangerous? lol
(1:03 PM) John: because that sort of practice is first not towards liberation means there is no wisdom in our nature but merely a stage.
(1:03 PM) AEN: oic
(1:03 PM) John: next the tranquil calm that is most important for any practices isn't mentioned.
(1:03 PM) John: that to me is not right.
(1:03 PM) John: and very dangerous.
(1:03 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:04 PM) John: a correct practice should lead one towards calmness, purity and tranquility.
(1:04 PM) AEN: oic
(1:04 PM) John: this comes first then even one experience nothing about our nature is able to benefit from such fruition.
(1:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:05 PM) John: during death, ward off evils, solve daily problems, deal with mental stress
(1:05 PM) AEN: icic
(1:05 PM) John: such calmness itself is the 'mantra', is the cure for all the above.
(1:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:06 PM) AEN: ward off evil as in
(1:06 PM) John: or serve as the base for it.
(1:06 PM) AEN: oic
(1:06 PM) John: yeah...when the mind is calm, there is lil power over some person.
(1:06 PM) John: it is difficult to penetrate such a mind.
(1:06 PM) AEN: o icic...
(1:06 PM) John: therefore that must be the base of practice first.
(1:07 PM) AEN: oic
(1:07 PM) John: only when conditions are right and one is quite sure that the practitioner is ready, then it is appropriate to guide one towards dreamless and dream stage...and real qualified masters are needed.
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:08 PM) John: dealing with the mind itself into a realm that is not easily understood by ppl is dangerous.
(1:08 PM) John: and those masters are sure themselves unless they are really high achievers.
(1:08 PM) John: how many of them are truly so?
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic
(1:09 PM) John: therefore one should refrain from such practice.
(1:09 PM) AEN: oic
(1:10 PM) John: and teachers must correctly advise their students or followers their practices toward achieving the virtuous attributes of the mind.
(1:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:10 PM) John: and at the same time provide correct knowledge of our nature, leading them only when the conditions are right.
(1:10 PM) AEN: icic
(1:11 PM) John: lol...otherwise if nub ask then i start telling them this and that or twe asked then reply this and that...then they are misled.
(1:11 PM) AEN: oic hahah
(1:12 PM) John: rather lead them towards the experience of the tranquil calm, it will solve their problems and experience the benefits and fruition of chanting and meditation.
(1:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:13 PM) John: then get them aquainted with dharma and have correct understanding of what our true nature is like.
(1:13 PM) John: that's all.
(1:13 PM) AEN: oic
(1:14 PM) John: the page 250 of what ken wilber described is exactly what longchen need now, he must stabilize this experience
(1:15 PM) John: and return to the practice of tranquility and calmness through letting go to master the thought pattern.
(1:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:15 PM) John: with this mastery, he is able to complete allow the condition of sleep to manifest as it is.
(1:16 PM) John: now during night, sleep will definitely occur
(1:16 PM) John: why?
(1:16 PM) John: because the conditions are there.
(1:16 PM) John: the mind knows
(1:16 PM) AEN: icic
(1:16 PM) John: and is aware of it.
(1:16 PM) John: right?
(1:16 PM) AEN: 6ya
(1:17 PM) John: when the conditions are there, there is manifestation and that is itself the source.
(1:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:17 PM) John: when we din sleep, it is not that the stage is high but rather we are unable to allow conditions to be as it is
(1:18 PM) John: if we can enter into deep sleep, it is because of this
(1:18 PM) John: one must observe the condition
(1:18 PM) AEN: oic
(1:19 PM) John: when we are not able to take nothingness as an object which is so obvious during deep sleep, we are denying that condition  
(1:19 PM) John: it is a form of subtle attachment
(1:19 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:19 PM) John: and also not knowing emptiness
(1:19 PM) AEN: icic
(1:19 PM) John: an attachment to the self.
(1:19 PM) AEN: oic
(1:20 PM) John: natural awareness can be sustained but through another way.
(1:20 PM) John: that is, one is able to control the thought patterns and allow thoughts to subside
(1:20 PM) AEN: icic
(1:20 PM) John: only after achieving this level, we have mastery we can go into it.
(1:20 PM) John: that is achievement
(1:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:22 PM) John: when u read ken wilber's book, do know about what can be practiced, what can't.
(1:22 PM) AEN: icic ok
(1:22 PM) John: when future u faced problem u must know what can solve ur problems
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic
(1:23 PM) John: it is always about the mastery of our thoughts (the capacity to slow down and settle it) in a mundane world.
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:24 PM) John: then it comes to ultimate liberation and enlightenment, that is the intuitive experience of our pristine nature. :)
(1:24 PM) AEN: icic
(1:25 PM) John: for one that experience "I AM", one can still take another 20 years to experience what ken wilber said.
(1:25 PM) John: it is just a 'spell' that bond and it takes more than 20 yrs for him to break.
(1:25 PM) John: nothing changes
(1:25 PM) John: just a bond
(1:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:26 PM) AEN: hmm ask u arh, if a practitioner attains a very high stage this lifetime, will he still need to go through all the various stages ken wilber mentioned in the next lifetime? lol
(1:26 PM) John: yeah
(1:27 PM) John: as far as i know...hehehe
(1:27 PM) AEN: haha
(1:27 PM) AEN: icic
(1:27 PM) John: but don't worry too much...coz the strength of the practice is latent deep inside...
(1:27 PM) AEN: oic
(1:29 PM) John: how is the channel now?
(1:30 PM) AEN: the buddhist channel? ok la but quite quiet.. still got some chatting but not much
(1:30 PM) AEN: and all the ops are gone
(1:30 PM) AEN: last time got like 10 ops now only left 2
(1:30 PM) John: lol
(1:30 PM) AEN: others all deregistered
(1:30 PM) AEN: 2 as in including me
(1:30 PM) John: msn better...
(1:30 PM) AEN: haha
(1:30 PM) AEN: ya
(1:30 PM) John: have u read patanjali yoga sutra b4?
(1:36 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
thats life - no chance to even go for the chanting .
AEN     says:
how come? wat happe
Leonard says:
last night had dinner ....
AEN     says:
oic..
Leonard says:
sometimes i feel that karma is something that cannot be avoided ... i am trying so hard....
(1:37 PM) John: yes...he can't.
(1:37 PM) AEN: icic
(1:38 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
i wonder how the buddha did it....
(1:38 PM) John: a misunderstanding after the experience of the 'Self' is the creation of a super will. :)
(1:39 PM) John: Buddha din do it, he allows natural manifestation
(1:40 PM) John: That 'will' is a wrong interpretation of our true nature.
(1:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:40 PM) AEN: do i say that to him?
(1:40 PM) John: yes
(1:40 PM) AEN: ok
(1:41 PM) John: time to understand more about how 'thoughts' work
(1:41 PM) John: :P
(1:42 PM) John: when we take 'thought' and dwell into the content, we will be affected.  There is no escape.
(1:42 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:43 PM) John: However by concentrating on the virtuous qualities of the mind and nothing about the content of thoughts, we will be able to dissolve thoughts.  
(1:43 PM) John: just the qualities
(1:43 PM) AEN: icic
(1:43 PM) John: there is no need to care about the content...
(1:43 PM) AEN: oic
(1:44 PM) John: if he is able to dwell into those qualites, the content will subsides
(1:44 PM) AEN: icic
(1:44 PM) John: because all along this is being overlooked, it cannot serve as a 'mantra' for overcoming problems.  
(1:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:51 PM) AEN: oh i remember like many months back when i first bought the power of now, i ask thevoice about it he seem to like it alot, except tat he said it can be dangerous bcos it can make ppl impatient or something.. like want things to be done immediately
(1:51 PM) AEN: i tink tats weird hahaha
(1:51 PM) AEN: then i told him that eckhart tolle is talking about silence in the now
(1:52 PM) John: ic
(1:55 PM) AEN: ok gtg cya 

Session Start: Thursday, September 28, 2006

(9:03 PM) John:    Eckhart Tolle forum...many has attained 3-4 levels.  But 5th level is still beyond them.  Only JonLS is there. 
(9:04 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:04 PM) AEN:    who has attained 3-4
(9:04 PM) John:    Chelsy
(9:04 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:04 PM) John:    but she doesn't know what JonLS is toking about yet....lol
(9:04 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(9:04 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:05 PM) John:    the karmic propensity is blocking her for the moment.  It will take quite some time due to her faith and respect for Eckhart Tolle. 
(9:05 PM) AEN:    oic..

(9:49 PM) John:    i am simply amazed how ET has 'touched' the lives of so many ppl.
(9:49 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:49 PM) AEN:    yea haha..
(9:50 PM) John:    first go beyond labels and names and experience our buddha's nature.
(9:50 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:57 PM) AEN:    i am simply amazed how ET has 'touched' the lifes of so many ppl. --> u be the 2nd ET loh.. hehe
(9:57 PM) John:    kok ur head!
(9:57 PM) AEN:    haha y
(10:02 PM) John:    Buddha's teaching is complete enough...
John says:
there is no need to add anything to it.
John says:
just go beyond the cultural aspects and use it as a guide.  
(10:03 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:04 PM) John:    the only way is for ET he himself to tok about no mirror reflecting. :)
(10:04 PM) John:    then all things are solved for his followers.
(10:04 PM) AEN:    icic... is eckhart there yet?
(10:04 PM) John:    almost. :)
(10:05 PM) AEN:    how about a new earth?
(10:05 PM) AEN:    the new book i mean
(10:05 PM) John:    same. :)
(10:05 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:05 PM) John:    that is why i din buy...lol
(10:09 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(10:09 PM) AEN:    u talking to her? she got the same problem?
(10:10 PM) John:    nope. :)
(10:10 PM) John:    i meant last time.
(10:10 PM) AEN:    oo icic
(11:29 PM) John:    gave something about no witnessing...hope i do not cause havoc...:P
(11:29 PM) John:    better run!
(11:29 PM) AEN:    LOL
(11:29 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:30 PM) John:    nite!
(11:30 PM) AEN:    gd nite

Session Start: Friday, September 29, 2006

(3:06 PM) John:    Din has completely understood what i am trying to tell him. :)
(3:06 PM) John:    directly and intuitively
(3:06 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:06 PM) AEN:    u mean based on his new posts
(3:06 PM) John:    in ET forum. :)
(3:06 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:07 PM) John:    really glad for him.  He has seen no-self and begin to understand the propensities intuitively, as an insight.
(3:07 PM) John:    it is truly amazing.
(3:07 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:08 PM) John:    he is the first to have experienced all that i have experienced except DO. :)
(3:08 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:08 PM) John:    i think DO will begin to manifest later.
(3:08 PM) AEN:    icic
(3:08 PM) John:    but it is difficult to 'see'. :)
(3:09 PM) AEN:    icic.. so it will come naturally
(3:09 PM) John:    once a person goes traceless, he can't be tracked.
(3:09 PM) John:    lol
(3:09 PM) AEN:    haha
(3:09 PM) AEN:    wat u mean by tat
(3:10 PM) John:    DO is profound, deep.  Not from the words of even one that has reached non-dual. :)
(3:10 PM) AEN:    oic...
(3:10 PM) AEN:    so wat u mean by one cannot be tracked
(3:10 PM) AEN:    if he goes traceless
(3:11 PM) John:    once he is in no mirror reflecting, no one knows who he really is. :P
(3:11 PM) AEN:    oic
(3:11 PM) AEN:    i still dun understand
(3:11 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(3:12 PM) John:    dun tell u. :P  Not that important lah.
(3:12 PM) AEN:    i read from dhammapada that maras cannot track where the consciousness of an arhant went
(3:12 PM) AEN:    is that wat u mean
(3:13 PM) John:    something like that. ;p
(3:13 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(3:13 PM) AEN:    ok
(3:26 PM) AEN:    http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Suttas/Dhammapada/04-Puppha/04-puppha.html#57

The Venerable Godhika, impeded from gaining mental absorption by a certain disease, cut his throat with a razor; but immediately before his death he cultivated insight and realised nibbana.  
Mara searched to see where his relinking-consciousness had arisen. The Buddha remarked that Mara cannot trace the relinking-consciousness of an Arahant.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_saints.htm

Verse 92. Blameless Is The Nature Of Saints

    For those who don’t accumulate,
    who well reflect upon their food,
    they have as range the nameless and
    the void of perfect freedom too.
    As birds that wing through space,
    hard to trace their going.

Explanation: With full understanding that nature is empty and objectless the mind is free of craving and leaves no trace of its whereabouts like the paths of birds in flight.

Verse 93. Arahat’s State Cannot Be Traced

    For whom pollutions are destroyed,
    not attached to any food,
    he has as range the nameless and
    the void of perfect freedom too.
(3:26 PM) AEN:   
    As birds that wing through space,
    hard to trace his going.

Explanation: If one is totally free of influences, internal or external, that motivates human behaviour, and is not attached even to food, that kind of individual focuses his mind on
emptiness, objectlessness and freedom of thought. The path of such saints is difficult to be traced, like the path of birds flying through the sky.
(3:28 PM) John:    yes...after stability. :P
(3:28 PM) AEN:    icic
(3:30 PM) John:    it is pointless to tell anyone about anything and to know anyone his stages of enlightenment. :)
(3:30 PM) John:    only one who experiences know.
(3:31 PM) AEN:    oic
(3:32 PM) John:    like i know the depth of buddha's word...heehehehe and Din knows my words...kekekeekke
(3:32 PM) AEN:    hahahaha
(3:33 PM) John:    i have always spoken the truth. :P
(3:33 PM) John:    somehow it sinks very deep into his consciousness. :)
(3:33 PM) AEN:    oic...
(3:33 PM) John:    and the conditions ripen.
(3:33 PM) John:    i wonder how deeply the DO sinks. :)