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Another article on anatta from Sanbo Kyodan Zen:
The abbot of the SANBÔZEN
I think that there is no one who has not heard the name Descartes. Rene Descartes (1596-1650) was a great philosopher and mathematician born in France. He was a contemporary with the great physicist, Galileo Galilei (1564-1642), born in Italy Descartes, in Discourse on the Method, a work published in 1637, wrote, “I think, therefore I am.”1 These words, signifying the comprehension of the existence of the self as a reality beyond doubt, formed probably the most famous and most important proposition in the history of modern philosophy. For that reason Descartes is called the Father of Modern Philosophy.
The process of Descartes’ cognitive methodology in the Discourse on the Method is, to put it simply: “If something can be doubted even a little, it must be completely rejected.” Those things which we usually think of as correct must be completely rejected should there be even the faintest doubt about them. In such a process even the proposition that 1 + 1 = 2, which seems to be self-evident reasoning, is rejected. However, Descartes asserts that the one thing that cannot be excluded and remains last of all is the perception “I think, therefore I am.” Is this true? Should this be rejected? Certainly there is a self which thinks about the self thinking. This fact cannot be denied.
But was Descartes really right?
Descartes was mistaken. I cannot help but say so. Perhaps someone will say to me, “Do you really think that you have the knowledge and intelligence sufficient to refute the conclusion drawn by one of the greatest thinkers known to us, someone who thoroughly thought through the problem and reached a conclusion affirmed by everyone?” It goes without saying that I do not have the knowledge and intelligence of Descartes. However, this is not a question of knowledge and intelligence. It is rather a question of the real world discovered through experience.
Descartes is mistaken in a number of points.First of all, the proposition itself, “I think, therefore I am” is a tautological contradiction. The contradiction lies in the fact that while the proposition seeks to show the process whereby one can know the existence of “I,” already from the start it is presupposing that existence in the words, “I think.” This contradiction seems at first to be only a matter of word usage and not something essential to the argument. However, it is really closely tied up with the essence of the problem.
To think about “Is this correct? Is this mistaken?” is something that cannot be denied. “Thinking” is a reality that cannot be excluded. Up to this point it is true just as Descartes maintained. However, the next step in which Descartes knows the existence of “I” by “therefore I am” is where Descartes fell into error. Where in the world did Descartes bring in this “I”? Where in the world did Descartes find this “I”? I must say that as soon as Descartes started with “I think,” he already had fallen into this error.
“Thinking” is a reality that cannot be denied. But there is nothing beyond that reality of “thinking.” No matter where you look, something called “I” does not exist. No matter how much intellectual knowledge you may have, insofar as you do not have this experience, you cannot discover this world. “I think, therefore I am” must be re-phrased as “Thinking, but there is no I.”
When Master Joshu was asked what was the world discovered by Shakyamuni (What was the meaning of Bodhidharma’s coming from the West?) he answered, “The oak tree in the garden.” This is a famous koan in the Gateless Gate (Mumonkan).Jôshû is presenting the world of “Thinking, but there is no I.” The oak tree in the garden, besides that tree nothing else exists in heaven or earth--an even less so, a “Joshu” who is looking at it. This is the world that is manifested in this utterance.
“The oak tree in the garden, but there is no I.”
1The original French is: Je pense, donc je suis. This was rendered into Latin by a priest friend of Descartes as “Cogito ergo sum.”(translated by Jerome CUSUMANO with the assistance of SATO Migaku)
From the “Opening Comments”of Kyôshô (SANBÔZEN's official magazine) 342, 2011 (May/June)
It is 4d not 3d .... existence is 3d .. with non existence it becomes 4d ... as mentioned above.
Ok I got it .. DO .. dependent origination. .
2008:
(5:32 PM) Thusness: The stages are okie to me but the insight is still not there.
(5:33
PM) Thusness: despite the fact that there is the awareness of the
importance of being 'decentered', the true insight and essence of
no-self isn't there yet.
(5:33 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:33 PM) AEN: what does he mean by entering void.. is it something like that stage 3 kind of experience?
(5:33 PM) Thusness: being transparent
(5:33 PM) Thusness: that is luminosity as the void.
(5:34 PM) AEN: but he said its beyond consciousness
(5:34 PM) Thusness: there is no problem experiencing as this void.
(5:34 PM) Thusness: just the non-dual understanding isn't there.
(5:34 PM) Thusness: this is because phenomena & void remains dual.
(5:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:35
PM) Thusness: That is he 'sees' a particular aspect of our pristine
nature but is unable to go beyond analysis of the experience and that
prevents him from experiencing the texture and fabric of awareness.
(5:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:36 PM) Thusness: phenomena is just an appearance that dependently originates when condition is.
(5:36 PM) Thusness: and this is what Awareness is.
(5:37 PM) Thusness: What he 'sees' is still with a center.
(5:37 PM) Thusness: that center now has become the 'void'
(5:37 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:37 PM) Thusness: in actual case, there is only appearance.
(5:38 PM) Thusness: the void was created due to the inability to go beyond dualistic more of understanding.
(5:38 PM) Thusness: mode
(5:38 PM) Thusness: Therefore there is no real experience of liberation.
(5:38 PM) Thusness: the void is what that 'bond' him.
(5:39 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:40 PM) AEN: oh ya btw did u read the article i sent u by john welwood
(5:40 PM) Thusness: not yet
(5:40 PM) Thusness: ????,???? (Seeing form is to apprehending Mind, hearing sound is the Tao/Way)
(5:40 PM) Thusness: there is no need to experience 'void'
(5:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:40 PM) Thusness: all in ?,? (sights, sounds)
(5:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:42 PM) Thusness: all in ?,?,?,?,?,? (sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, thought)
(5:42 PM) Thusness: seeing this is seeing our Buddha nature.
(5:42 PM) Thusness: only due to our empty nature manifestations appear diverse.
(5:43 PM) Thusness: it is not knowing our empty nature that 'void' is seen to be really existing.
(5:43 PM) Thusness: what exists is just appearances
(5:43 PM) Thusness: this is luminous yet empty.
(5:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:45 PM) Thusness: It is not that we are stubborn that we can't accept the existence of the 'void'
(5:45 PM) Thusness: the 'Void' must be understood correctly
(5:45 PM) AEN: icic... wat is the 'void'
(5:45 PM) Thusness: it is an assumed 'space' that arise only in 'thinking and analysing'
(5:46 PM) Thusness: it is a 'mind space' made believe to exist and appears to exist only during introspection.
(5:46 PM) Thusness: What truly exists experientially is just the 18 dhatus.
(5:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:47 PM) Thusness: it is still the cause of dualism and dualism causes separation which is the root cause of suffering.
(5:48 PM) Thusness: There is no true spontaneity and effortlessness when we are still dualistic.
(5:48 PM) AEN: the assumed 'space' is the cause of dualism u mean?
(5:49 PM) Thusness: it is not the cause of dualism
(5:49 PM) AEN: what is the cause of dualism
(5:49 PM) Thusness: the tendency to divide is the cause
(5:49 PM) Thusness: that tendency to divide can manifest as 'space', 'void', 'Self'
I
am not sure if you can see it ... John Tan said it above ... use your
eyes .. ears ...even hairs ..lol .. he also said don't use your mind ..
Mark Leher
The conversation was before I self-realized (february 2010) nor realised anatta (october 2010).I
don't think you see what John Tan said above. Your understanding is
more like the void underlying all phenomena, therefore still dual. I AM
sort of understanding.
Soh Wei Yu
if you are thinking it is dual .. but if it you can see it with your eyes ... where is the duality?Soh Wei Yu
that's why don't use your mind.He said two truths .. or existence and non existence ...blend together.
Session Start: Wednesday, 17 December, 2008
(9:49 PM) Thusness: Sense of self and sense of beingness is different
(9:51 PM) Thusness: Wisdom of our nature includes the ability to know the difference
(9:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:51 PM) Thusness: yes i read what he wrote.
(9:52 PM) AEN: longchen? ic..
(9:52 PM) Thusness: yes in the morning.
(9:53 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:54 PM) Thusness: the other article about great freedom is also not bad.
(9:54 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:57
PM) AEN: btw wats the difference between 'now' and spontaneous
arising.. to remain in 'now' doesnt mean there's no sense of self isit?
and there's still the sense of effort to achieve or sustain the state
(10:00 PM) Thusness: 'Now' is a concept for what they really want to convey is a direct experience of a sense of presence.
(10:00 PM) Thusness: spontaneous arising is different. It relates to 'effortlessness'.
(10:02 PM) Thusness: it relates to the direct experience of what liberation is.
(10:02 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:07 PM) AEN: u said travis post is still 'i am'... is cos he still cant differentiate sense of self and beingness?
(10:07
PM) Thusness: what they want to bring across to the readers is to tell
them not to lost themselves in stories so that they missed the direct
experience of 'Presence'.
(10:07 PM) Thusness: This is just the first step.
(10:08 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:09 PM) Thusness: Stressing the importance of 'Now' has no other purpose other than that.
(10:09 PM) Thusness: What longchen said is a more important truth.
(10:09 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:10 PM) AEN: but spontaneous manifestation can only occur after insight rite?
(10:10 PM) Thusness: not exactly
(10:10 PM) Thusness: it always occur
(10:11 PM) Thusness: it is just that it is not realised
(10:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:11
PM) Thusness: now when the article from 'Great Freedom' said, the space
is Awareness and what that arise is also Awareness. How do u
understand it?
(10:13 PM) AEN: thats non duality rite?
(10:14 PM) Thusness: To me it is non-dual but not buddhism sort of understanding.
(10:14 PM) Thusness: Therefore it does not the sort of insight I hope u can achieve.
(10:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:15 PM) AEN: wats the difference
(10:16 PM) Thusness: Yes what is the different?
(10:16 PM) AEN: they still treat awareness as an unchanging background?
(10:16 PM) Thusness: not actually that for this case
(10:17 PM) Thusness: obviously they also treat whatever arise as Awareness.
(10:17 PM) Thusness: They problem is in the depth of clarity.
(10:18 PM) Thusness: There are several hurdles here.
(10:18 PM) Thusness: First is the experience of a pure sense of existence (Presence) from a state free from 'thoughts'
(10:19 PM) Thusness: an almost thoughtless state
(10:19 PM) Thusness: then there is also the experience of non-duality
(10:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:20 PM) Thusness: that is a state similar to what Ken Wilber experienced
(10:20 PM) Thusness: There is inability to break-through the 'bond' of dualism.
(10:22 PM) Thusness: The perpetual referencing back prevents the depth of 'seeing' despite the non-dual experience.
(10:22 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:22 PM) AEN: referencing back to a self or background?
(10:23 PM) Thusness: it is not that he wants the background, it is because the dualistic tendency
(10:24
PM) AEN: btw self inquiry can lead to a thoughtless state of presence
rite? yesterday was practicing self inquiry until suddenly its like i
have almost no thought already... just a sense of presence... then
suddenly i enter into a v blissful state for i tink 1 or 2 minute
(10:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:24 PM) Thusness: yes
(10:26
PM) Thusness: this pure sense of existence cannot 'blind' us from
seeing sight, sound, taste and other arising phenomenon as Presence
(10:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:27 PM) Thusness: once u let that blind u, u can't experience anatta completely
(10:27
PM) Thusness: the next natural development is to have the glimpse of
what Ken Wilber experiences... u need vivid experience of that
(10:27 PM) AEN: i didnt remember experience sight or sound or taste... instead it feels like void... but theres presence
(10:28 PM) AEN: icic
(10:28 PM) Thusness: then confusion steps in whenever u try to make sense out of these 2 experiences
(10:28 PM) Thusness: the problem is with our dualistic mode of understanding things
(10:28 PM) Thusness: despite the experiences, we still cannot understand it correctly
(10:29 PM) Thusness: until we become clear of anatta then prajna insight arises
(10:30
PM) Thusness: Once we accept anatta and DO as the right understanding
of these experiences, we began to experience clearer and less effort is
needed
(10:31 PM)
Thusness: Once we clearly see that the 5 aggregates are already
non-dual, we no more preserve that 'state' of pure existence
(10:31 PM) Thusness: the 'effort' to sustain a particular state disappear
(10:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:32 PM) Thusness: yet that is not the exhaustive even insight arises
(10:32 PM) AEN: huh?
(10:33 PM) Thusness: like when we faced adverse situations, non-dual is gone as in the case of longchen.
(10:33 PM) Thusness: when in dream states also
(10:34 PM) AEN: oic.. ya longchen said he only experience non dual when he is near the end of the dream, and in the waking state
(10:34 PM) Thusness: not yet
(10:34 PM) AEN: oic wat u mean
(10:34 PM) AEN: he haven experience it in dream?
(10:37 PM) Thusness: not only that...
(10:38
PM) Thusness: i mean spontaneous manifestation is only correctly
understood when we clearly see that there is no 'center', no 'self' from
the anatta perspective
(10:38 PM) Thusness: that is, there is thoughts, no thinker
(10:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:39 PM) Thusness: means there is always only thoughts
(10:39 PM) Thusness: then we can begin to understand DO.
(10:39 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:39 PM) Thusness: always only Sound, no hearer
(10:40 PM) Thusness: understand spontaneous arising this way and understand DO from this experience.
(10:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:42
PM) Thusness: after absolute and effortless clarity of these
experiences, when dealing with adverse situations, that non-dual
experiences can still be gone.
(10:42 PM) Thusness: that is practice
(10:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:43 PM) Thusness: then we will begin to realise DO in a deeper aspect
(10:43 PM) Thusness: and the strength of the 'bond'
(10:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:44 PM) Thusness: but first the pure sense of existence
(10:44 PM) Thusness: then non-dual experience
(10:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:44
PM) AEN: btw earlier u said travis experience is still 'i am'.. isit
bcos he cant distinguish beingness from sense of self?
(10:45 PM) Thusness: u must continue to practice letting go.
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:46 PM) Thusness: to understand Travis experience, u must have the 'Oneness' experience
(10:47 PM) Thusness: stripping 'personality' from experiences
(10:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:48 PM) Thusness: that is, u non-dual need not arise, but that stripping of 'personality' from experiences must arise
(10:48 PM) Thusness: it is also an important experience.
(10:48 PM) Thusness: then with a lil extrapolation, u come out that sort of conclusion.
(10:49
PM) Thusness: because will 'personality' is being stripped off from
every moment of experience, an 'inherent essence' is not
(10:50 PM) Thusness: that bond of 'inherent essence' causes Travis to extrapolate and lead him to that understanding.
(10:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:52
PM) Thusness: i mean 'because while' 'personality' is being stripped
off from every moment of experience, the aspect of 'inherent essence'
is not
(10:52 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:53 PM) AEN: btw he had nondual experience rite?
(10:53 PM) Thusness: yes
(10:53 PM) Thusness: just that the insight of anatta does not arise.
(10:53 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:53 PM) Thusness: what i want u to experience is anatta
(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:57 PM) Thusness: now when u hear 'sound', do u feel like the 'sound' out there?
(10:59 PM) AEN: ya
(11:00 PM) AEN: it's a bond to the body/mind rite? like a sense of being 'in here'
(11:01 PM) AEN: but if i just listen attentively it becomes less distinct i tink
(11:02 PM) Thusness is now Online
(11:13 PM) AEN: u saw my msg?
(11:16 PM) Thusness: Nope
(11:18 PM) AEN: oh i said
(11:18 PM) AEN: AEN says:
ya
AEN says:
it's a bond to the body/mind rite? like a sense of being 'in here'
AEN says:
but if i just listen attentively it becomes less distinct i tink
(11:21 PM) Thusness: seldom does it occur to us that it is due to our dualistic mode of perception as the main cause
(11:21 PM) AEN: as the main cause of?
(11:22 PM) Thusness: of making us feel so
(11:23 PM) Thusness: However there r other conditions that complicate our experience
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:24 PM) AEN: what other conditions
(11:24 PM) Thusness: That is the 'body' and the 'external conditions'
(11:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:31 PM) Thusness: Now u have read, taught and the sutra to refer to, how is it that u still feel so?
(11:32 PM) Thusness: U have so much faith in Buddha, why is it that u r unable to directly feel the truth of anatta?
(11:32 PM) AEN: due to bond or the dualistic mode of perception?
(11:35
PM) Thusness: therefore know the subtlety and strength of this bond.
It is much stronger then the sum of all ur faith and practices
(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..
Session Start: Saturday, March 14, 2009
(11:50 PM) AEN: 'Nevertheless it is a very key phase'
u mean very important key phase?
(11:51 PM) Thusness: yeah
(11:52 PM) AEN: icic..
btw wats the difference between stage 4 and 5 other than stabilizing non dual
(11:54 PM) Thusness: u need to face the problem to know
it is not in words
(11:55 PM) Thusness: because u have not experienced non-division
(11:55 PM) Thusness: so u do not know what is non divison
(11:55 PM) Thusness: what is no-doership and what is no agent in experience
(11:56 PM) Thusness: and it is difficult to know what is that 'marks' that prevent the experience of spontaneity
(11:56 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:58 PM) Thusness: there is a difference seeing thinker/thoughts as one
(11:58 PM) Thusness: and hearer/sound as one
then sound is awareness, no hearer
(11:58 PM) Thusness: stage 4 is more like hearer/sound as one
(11:59 PM) Thusness: that is why i said one thought, then another thought
just like u, u said u feel like an open space
(11:59 PM) Thusness: then u hear sound
sound and awareness seem to be one
(11:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:00 AM) Thusness: indistinguishable but u cannot have that experience that there is only sound
only in logic u have but not in experience
(12:00 AM) Thusness: until one day u mature that experience
(12:01 AM) AEN: icic..
just now i saw a website from truthz's blog lists
i mean not truthz's blog but the blog link appeared in his
(12:02 AM) AEN: http://buddhaspace.blogspot.com/
Correct
Understanding - the first of the eight aspects of the Noble Eightfold
Path - arises out of noticing the impermanent, unsatisfactory, and
impersonal nature of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and tactile
objects. When all these phenomena are realized to be not self, the mind
will turn inwards, seeking out what it might cling to as ‘me’. But if it
looks with absolute clarity it will find emptiness. Behind sensations,
feelings, thoughts, and consciousness, there lies clear, endless space. I
sometimes call it ‘Buddha Space’.
(12:05 AM) Thusness: yeah
that is wrong view.
(12:05 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:06 AM) Thusness: it is very difficult to see the truth of this until our insight matures
even at stage 4, it can be difficult but it is already the first steps towards anatta
(12:06 AM) AEN: difficult to what
see anatta?
(12:06 AM) Thusness: yeah
(12:06 AM) AEN: oic
(12:07 AM) Thusness: u must see the no agent
not only no division
(12:07 AM) Thusness: like i told u there are 3 stages
(12:08 AM) Thusness: later into just this non-dual luminosity
(12:09 AM) Thusness: if u ask non-dualists, they will not realise that they are an arising thought
(12:09 AM) Thusness: like what jeff foster said
(12:09 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:10 AM) Thusness: they will feel damn ultimate
(12:10 AM) AEN: ic..
like brahman
(12:11 AM) Thusness: yes so they see self
not events, process phenomena
(12:12 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:12 AM) Thusness: they see brahman, not sunyata
(12:12 AM) Thusness: even the experiences are very similar
the insight has not matured into anatta
(12:13 AM) Thusness: like shingon sort of practice, the experience can be said to be maha like
but it is not the maha sort of experience i am talking about
(12:13 AM) Thusness: it is oneness sort of experience
but it is a stage
(12:14 AM) Thusness: what i said is oneness is always there
(12:14 AM) Thusness: when one realises that presence is always a manifestation and full embodiment of interconnectedness
(12:15 AM) Thusness: no effort needs to be done to induce a maha experience
(12:23 AM) Thusness: there are few conditions to experience maha as a ground
(12:23 AM) Thusness: 1. mature in non-dual experience
2. DO (dependent origination)
(12:24 AM) Thusness: 3. experience and understand that 'interconnectedness' is the universe itself
then 'self' and even non dual becomes quite irrelevant
(12:25 AM) Thusness: in fact now presence is not understand as non-dual to me.
(12:26 AM) Thusness: but as DO
(12:26 AM) Thusness: where non-dual is already included
.......
2008:
(11:46 PM) Thusness: Does ken (Ken Wilber) talk about anatta
(11:46 PM) AEN: no
(11:47 PM) Thusness: Or Advaita sort of understanding
(11:47 PM) AEN: advaita (Ken Wilber is at Thusness Stage 4)
(11:47 PM) Thusness: Then y u kept asking me.
(11:47 PM) Thusness: What is anatta?
(Continued in link: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../difference-between... )
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Difference Between Thusness Stage 4 and 5 (Substantial Non-duality vs Anatta)
Just tell what you understand now... please.
How come you can't talk spontaneously.
Your
understanding does not go beyond phase 4 sort of understanding even if
you experienced nondual. There is no lightning besides the flash. No
unchanging underlying transience.
(continued from link)
(11:47 PM) Thusness: What is anatta?
(11:48
PM) AEN: ya but wat i mean is nondual experience is not as in stage 2
type of passing experience, but as everpresent reality?
(11:48 PM) AEN: anatta is no agent and dependent origination?
(11:48
PM) Thusness: Didn't I tell u understanding non-dual experience as
verb. (Soh: refer to my article The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the
Wind)
(11:48 PM) AEN: icic
(11:49 PM) Thusness: Not an entity that is independent and unchanging?
(11:49
PM) AEN: but ken wilber say "You are that, and there is no you – just
this entire luminous display spontaneously arising moment to moment. The
separate self is nowhere to be found."
(11:50 PM) AEN: *oic
(11:50 PM) Thusness: Non-dual experience is there is clarity of no separation (As in Thusness Stage 4)
(11:51 PM) Thusness: Stage 2 is there is merging
(11:51 PM) Thusness: As if I dissolved and merge..
(11:51 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:52 PM) Thusness: There r two, dual
(11:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:52 PM) Thusness: Non-dual is there never was a separation
(11:52 PM) Thusness: No split
(11:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:53 PM) Thusness: There is no separate I.
(11:53 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:53 PM) Thusness: But this awareness is still very much constant, permanent and unchanging
(11:54 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:54 PM) Thusness: Anatta goes further and understand exactly what is non-dual experience
(11:55 PM) Thusness: This is a break-through in insight
(11:55 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:55 PM) AEN: its about discerning it as DO?
(11:55 PM) Thusness: There is thinking, no thinker
(11:55 PM) AEN: icic
(11:55 PM) Thusness: Seen no seer
(11:56 PM) Thusness: Sound no hearer
(11:56 PM) AEN: oic
(11:56 PM) Thusness: Understood becoming no being
(11:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:57 PM) Thusness: Understand that object@
(11:57 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(11:59 PM) Thusness: Object/subject is the result of compartmentizing 'verb'
(11:59 PM) Thusness: Action
(11:59 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:59 PM) Thusness: Thinking becomes thinker and thoughts
(11:59 PM) Thusness: That is anatta
(12:00 AM) Thusness: It is the direct experience that there is no thinker, just thoughts
(12:01 AM) Thusness: In seeing, always only the seen.
(12:01 AM) AEN: is this wat u mean by nondual yet permanent (for ken wilber):
You
are not the one who experiences liberation; you are the clearing, the
opening, the emptiness, in which any experience comes and goes, like
reflections on the mirror. And you are the mirror, the mirror mind, and
not any experienced reflection. But you are not apart from the
reflections, standing back and watching. You are everything that is
arising moment to moment. You can swallow the whole cosmos in one gulp,
it is so small, and you can taste the sky without moving an inch.
(12:01 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:03 AM) Thusness: Yes what I called desync of view and non-dual experience
(12:04 AM) Thusness: When insight arises, there is no desync
(12:04 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:05 AM) Thusness: Non-dual experience is clearly understood because there never was one.
(12:05 AM) Thusness: It is always only manifestation
(12:06 AM) AEN: there never was what?
(12:06 AM) Thusness: DO is the operation mechanism of the Transience
(12:06 AM) Thusness: A self
(12:06 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:10 AM) Thusness: It is very difficult to have such clarity
(12:11 AM) Thusness: Only Buddha has it
(12:11 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:12 AM) Thusness: Even buddhist practitioners have so much mis-conceptions
(12:12 AM) Thusness: They can't see how consistent and precise the teaching is
(12:13 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:14 AM) AEN: btw this is not yet nondual experience rite, more like I AM?:
(12:14
AM) AEN: "the world moves forward as it is..... but instead of seeing
the diversity as the ulitmate the One underneath it all is rested
in..... Like the ocean reality or maya is simply the surface waves of
moving consciousness.... shakti which manifests the underlying Ocean of
Consciousness into a limited visible form..... But what is beneath and
around and within that form is simply the same consciousness which
comprises the Whole of the Ocean.... But in the calm of the depths you
know the vastness instead of the limited......"
(12:16 AM) Thusness: Yes
(12:16 AM) AEN: icic
(12:17 AM) Thusness: Under the influence of the 'bond' without knowing it
(12:17 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:17 AM) Thusness: Stage 1 to 6 cannot be skipped
(12:17 AM) AEN: wat do u mean
(12:18 AM) Thusness: Best experienced that way.
(12:18 AM) AEN: oic
(12:18 AM) Thusness: A practitioner cannot skip stages
(12:18 AM) AEN: but buddhist path skips some rite
(12:18 AM) AEN: like dharma dan never go through 'i am'
(12:18 AM) Thusness: Yes
(12:19 AM) Thusness: the depth of clarity will not be there
(12:19 AM) Thusness: Like grimnexus see 4 same as 5.
(12:20 AM) Thusness: But a person that undergone knows clearly.
(12:21 AM) AEN: oic
(12:21 AM) AEN: ya he tot its the same
(12:21 AM) AEN: btw grimnexus at stage 4 rite
(12:21 AM) Thusness: Like ken and Ajahn amaro, seems the same but even Ajahn Amaro thought it is the same.
(12:21 AM) AEN: long time nv see him online liao, he like never came online for many months
(12:21 AM) AEN: oic
(12:21 AM) Thusness: Why u worry so much abt others ppl stage?
(12:22 AM) AEN: lol
(12:23 AM) Thusness: Rather pray hard that u will not be misled and go through countless lives of rebirth again
(12:23 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:23 AM) Thusness: What u must have is to correctly discern
(12:24 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:25 AM) Thusness: If u want to hv clarity of the essence of the six phases, discern and understand correctly.
(12:25 AM) Thusness: What if I m no more around?
(12:25 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:26 AM) Thusness: If Ajahn Amaro cannot know the diff, much less is others
(12:26 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:26 AM) AEN: dharma dan leh
(12:26 AM) Thusness: Rather ask urself have u correctly understood then abt others
(12:27 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:27 AM) Thusness: How I know?
(12:27 AM) AEN: oic
(12:27 AM) Thusness: U kept asking abt others, I worry more abt u.
(12:27 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:28 AM) Thusness: If u know, u will be able to know r they there.
(12:28 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:29 AM) Thusness: Like ken and Ajahn Amaro clearly have same experience but different understanding
(12:29 AM) Thusness: David loy treat them the same too.
(12:29 AM) Thusness: Not realizing the differences
(12:30 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:30 AM) Thusness: So have the right understanding
(12:31 AM) Thusness: One is abiding, the other is non-abiding
(12:32 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:32 AM) Thusness: One is still efforting, the other is effortless
(12:32 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:33 AM) Thusness: One is Brahman, the other is DO
(12:34 AM) Thusness: One is mirror, the other is pure manifestation
(12:34 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:36 AM) Thusness: 'Self' is grasped unknowingly because it is independent, changeless
(12:36 AM) Thusness: Therefore they can't treasure the Transience
(12:37 AM) Thusness: They can't c conditions
(12:37 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:37 AM) Thusness: The Transience and conditions are most sacred
(12:38 AM) Thusness: How can Self c this?
(12:38 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:39 AM) Thusness: But one must know the emptiness nature of Transience, unfindable and ungraspable
(12:39 AM) Thusness: And rises when condition is
(12:40 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:40 AM) Thusness: When we say attributes, we r referring to the empty nature of awareness
(12:41 AM) AEN: wat u mean
(12:41 AM) Thusness: But awareness is full of colors
(12:41 AM) AEN: u mean attributelessness?
(12:41 AM) AEN: icic
(12:41 AM) Thusness: Like 'redness' of a flower
(12:42 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:42 AM) Thusness: But to advaitins, it is absence
(12:42 AM) Thusness: Nothing to do with awareness
(12:43 AM) AEN: u mean they see awareness as formless?
(12:43 AM) Thusness: yes
(12:43 AM) AEN: icic
(12:44 AM) Thusness: Means absence of attributes as colorless, formless
(12:44 AM) Thusness: But what buddhism is referring is its emptiness nature
(12:45 AM) Thusness: Not that there is a real formless entity
(12:45 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:45 AM) Thusness: Awareness is appearances appearing when condition is
(12:46 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:46 AM) Thusness: awareness is not free of thoughts
(12:46 AM) Thusness: To advaitins, it is.
(12:47 AM) Thusness: To buddhist practitioner, thought is awareness
(12:48 AM) Thusness: One thought arises
(12:48 AM) Thusness: Next one
(12:48 AM) Thusness: Like what Ajahn Amaro said
(12:48 AM) Thusness: There is no worry abt no thought, no conceptuality
(12:49 AM) Thusness: All will be experienced in their most vivid forms
(12:49 AM) Thusness: I got to go now.
(12:49 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:49 AM) AEN: ok gd nite
(12:49 AM) Thusness: Nite
I
have already explained to you many times, you will have to slowly read
through these articles and come to your own understanding. No point for
me to keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. I do not have
so much time.
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Difference Between Thusness Stage 4 and 5 (Substantial Non-duality vs Anatta)
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the Wind
I give up... thank you..lol
Go talk to your Zen Master. You will never understand the 9th Oxherding stage (anatta realization) this way.
Ten Ox-herding Pictures
Stage 9
RETURNING
TO THE SOURCE
Introduction
It is originally pure and clean without a speck of dust clinging.
He observes the flourishing and dying of form while remaining in the silence of no-action.
This is not the same as illusion; what need is there for striving or planning?
The water is blue and the mountains green; he sits and watches phenomena take form and decay.
Verse
Having come back to the origin and returned to the source, you see that you have expended efforts in vain.
What could be superior to becoming blind and deaf in this very moment?
Inside the hermitage, you do not see what is in front of the hermitage.
The water flows of itself and the flowers are naturally red.
How
much time and pain it took to come to the eighth stage of "Person and
Ox Both Forgotten"! Now you have reached at last the stage where you
realize the fact of "Person is empty, so is the dharma," that is, the
subject (person) and the object (dharma) are both totally empty. Since
this is the fruit of extremely long and hard labor, you tend to stick to
this stage and to cherish it endlessly - the last residue of
enlightenment. If you succeed in washing it away by constant and
persistent sitting, you come to a state of realization that the fact of
"Person is empty, so is the dharma" is the essential state of human
beings, signifying nothing special at all. Through this realization you
return to your original starting point. This is the stage of "Returning
to the source," where not a trace of such things as "Buddhism" or
"Tathagata" is found anywhere. It is true that "the state after
enlightenment is exactly the same as that of before enlightenment." It
is the state of mind of "a leisurely person of the Way, who, having
finished learning, has nothing more to do."
At
this stage you can observe that all the highs and lows and vacillations
of this world are, as they are, void of substance and are
manifestations of the world of perfect stillness and non-being.
Expressed in these terms it sounds as if there were two things - being
and non-being. But in fact, being is non-being; the aspect of being is,
as it is, non-being itself. There is no distinction between the two at
all.
This
proposition "Being is non-being" is a crude fact, not a temporary
illusion or a dream. At this point you can realize and affirm that it
has been entirely unnecessary to be consciously engaged in practicing
the way or trying to attain enlightenment. This is a very important
point: you start with the first stage of "Searching the Ox," and,
spending many years in practice, you come at last to the ninth level of
"Returning to the Source," and as a result of this entire process you
can say that practice and enlightenment were unnecessary. It is totally
wrong to maintain from the very beginning that practice and
enlightenment are of no use. Such an attitude is called "inactive zen"
[buji-zen] . Today, almost all Zen schools in Japan have degenerated to
this "inactive zen." They maintain that just sitting is enough, not
appreciating the experience of enlightenment or even ignoring it. On the
other hand, you must bear in mind: No matter how strongly you argue
that enlightenment is important, if it's nothing more than just
propagating a conceptional zen or if you take pride in your experience
(if it was an authentic experience), you are only mid-way. There is no
other way than to sit and sit and sit, until you can very clearly say
that practice and enlightenment were intrinsically unnecessary.
Let's now appreciate the verse by Master Kakuan:
Having come back to the origin and returned to the source,
you see that you have expended efforts in vain.
You
are now back to your starting point. How much effort you needed for
that! Occasionally you encouraged yourself washing your face with the
ice-chilly basin water, or you sank into desperation listening to frogs
croaking in the dusk outside, or you kept sitting in defiance of the
pains in the legs or of unbearable fatigue. Many times you have felt,
"Now, this time I've come to a true experience!" but soon that
experience is covered with anxiety and discontent. How many times you
have determined to stop doing zazen altogether!.
What could be superior to becoming blind and deaf
in this very moment?
Come
to think of it now, why didn't I become like a blind and deaf person
right away? "Blind and deaf" here means a state of mind where there is
nothing to see and nothing to hear. When you see, there's only the
seeing, and the subject that sees doesn't exist. When you hear, there's
only the hearing, and the subject that hears doesn't exist. The objects
which are seen or heard are, just as they are, without substance. But
understanding the logic of this will not do. When this is realized as a
fact, you become like a "blind and deaf" person.
Inside the hermitage,
you do not see what is in front of the hermitage.
The
late YAMADA Kôun Roshi comments that this line comes from a dialogue
between Unmon [864-949] and Master Kempô [dates unknown]: Unmon visited
Master Kempô and asked, "Why doesn't a person inside the hermitage know
anything outside the hermitage?" To this, Kempô burst out into laughter.
The point is why the person inside the hermitage (subject) cannot see
the things "in front of the hermitage" (object). That's because there
isn't anything in front of the hermitage. You may say that there is only
the subject, there being no object at all. Yet, in actual truth, that
"subject" doesn't exist either.
The water flows of itself and the flowers are naturally red.
The
water runs smoothly, the flowers are colored scarlet. This line seems
to imply that there are only the objects and there's no subject at all.
However, as a matter of fact, those objects do not exist at all. It's
simply that the water is running smoothly, and flowers are scarlet.
Everything is just as it is [tada korekore], and everything is void as
it is now [arugamama no aritsubure]. The fact that there is no
distinction between self and others simply continues without end - "The
water flows of itself and the flowers are naturally red.".
TEREBESS.HU
The Ten Ox-Herding Pictures, painted by Tatsuhiko YOKOO, Teisho by KUBOTA Ji'un, Terebess Asia Online (TAO)
DO ... that's why dependent origination ...
You and ride the ox ..lol. ..
I know that ... I had many dokusans with Kubota Roshi ..
You do not understand Kubota Roshi's 9th Oxherding Picture, nor do you understand your lineage masters well, nor do you understand Dogen well. You can see your entire lineage from Dogen onwards, in fact all the way back to Buddha, what is the most crucial breakthrough is the anatta realization.. (then progress into total exertion). Thusness Stage 5 is the key. Stage 1~4 can be found in other religions, teachings and philosophies. What is unique is stages 5 to 7.
Here's another one of your lineage master, Hakuun Yasutani, "Flowers Fall":
Chapter 10
"If
a person, when he is riding along in a boat, looks around and sees the
shore, he mistakenly thinks that the bank is moving. But if he looks
directly at the boat, he discovers that it is the boat that is moving
along. Likewise, with confused thoughts about body and mind, holding to
discrimination of the myriad dharmas, one mistakenly thinks his own mind
and nature are permanent. If, intimately engaged in daily activities,
one returns to right here, the principle that the myriad dharmas have no
self is clear.”
From
here Dogen Zenji warns us against the view that the mind is permanent
and only phenomenal appearances perish, and he points out the fact that
the myriad dharmas are without self. The view of permanence of the mind
and the perishing of phenomenal appearances, to state it simply, is the
view that the body changes and passes away, but the spirit eternally
abides unchanging. It is a view that is generally easy for those of a
simple faith to fall into. The metaphor “a person, when he is riding in a
boat” means just what it says and can be understood by anybody.
This
metaphor is cited from the passage in the Sutra of Perfect
Enlightenment, which says, It is like “The moon moving when the clouds
pass quickly, and the shore moving when a boat moves along.”
“With
confused thoughts about body and mind, holding to discrimination of the
various dharmas, one mistakenly thinks his own mind and nature are
permanent.” And unenlightened person is completely confused about body
and mind. As long as one has not clearly seen the five skandhas are all
empty, no matter how great a scholar he may be, he is confused about
body and mind. As a result he falls either into a view of permanence or a
view of annihilation. Many people of a simplistic faith fall into a
view of permanence. Many second-rate scientists fall into a view of
annihilation. Here Dogen Zenji warns against a view of permanence. A
view of permanence is considering there to be a single, permanent,
guiding self; considering there to be a fixed, unchanging soul; thinking
that the self actually exists. Unenlightened people have the karmic
illness of considering whatever they attach themselves to to have a
self. If they make a group, they consider the group to have a self. If
they attach themselves to the nation, they consider the nation to have a
self. You would hardly think that there was a self in the planet, but
if the world were to become completely unified and there were such a
thing as a world-state, perhaps they would come to believe in a
world-self.
The
largest self the unenlightened people falsely believe in is the cosmic
self. That’s what it is when you think there is something that creates
the universe, governs the universe, and provides for the universe. It
seems that in India from ancient times that’s what they have been
calling Brahma heaven. In China they call it heaven or the will of
heaven. It seems that they made conforming with that the basis of their
teaching. I think that it is arising from this that we have such
expressions as “heaven has put virtue in me,” “enjoying the will of
heaven, I have no further doubts,” and “the will of heaven is called the
nature of things. Conforming to the nature of things is called the Way.
Cultivating the Way is called the teaching.”
“The
Buddha way is no-self.” The one who thoroughly realized that all things
are without self was Shakyamuni Buddha. “The myriad teachings return to
the one” is also fine, but if Buddhism compromises with religions that
have a false belief in the self, it is no longer Buddhism at all. But
then, if those religions other than Buddhism return to no-self, the
bases of those religions will disappear, and those religions will be
changed into something completely different. However, since there can
only be one truth, I think that when the wisdom of human being advances,
one way or another they’ll become one.
In
recent times the ones who, comparatively speaking, are least inclined
toward a false belief in self are the scientists. But I’m quite afraid
that if they make one false step, they will fall into a view of
nihilism. By no means do scientists think that body and mind exist
separately, but they are liable to regard the body as important and
neglect the mind. Western medicine up until now has been treating people
from that standpoint. In contrast, it seems that the Eastern medical
tradition has emphasized the mind since long ago. The expression,
“illness originates in the spirit (ki),” is a common one. Even the word
for sickness (byoki) means illness (byo) of the spirit (ki).” I hear
that even in Western medicine they have lately come to regard the mind
as important.
Of
course it’s confused thinking to consider mind and body as existing
separately, but attaching greater or lesser importance to the mind or
the body, after all, is also confused thinking. So, if you think that a
fixed body or mind exists for even one minute, that is also confused
thinking. When one thinks about everything with this kind of confused
thinking as the basis, she makes the mistake of thinking that only the
body changes, arises, and passes away and mentally depicts something
like a spirit or a self that is eternally abiding and unchanging. This
is the way ordinary people think. From there, the theory of the undying
soul also emerges. So then, on the one hand is the fact that Buddhism
stresses that there is no God and no soul, and yet she thinks that
Buddhism is something that believes in an unchanging soul.
Thus
it is necessary to examine the content of both of these views very,
very well, but, since that gets rather lengthy, here I will abbreviate
it. If you falsely consider there to be a self, you fall into the
mistake of a view of permanence, and if you think that at the time of
death the individual personality returns to nothing, that is a view of
annihilation, which is also a mistake. This is not at all just a matter
of whether or not a soul remains after death. Rather, the important
question is whether or not a fixed, unchanging self, called a soul,
really exists right now in the living body and mind.
It
seems the fact that the body is changing moment by moment could be
understood by anyone, but, not knowing if it is the spirit or what,
people can’t help thinking that there is some fixed, unchanging thing
called me. When they try to find out exactly what that “me” is, they
don’t understand its true character at all. This thing called me doesn’t
seem to be just the body, nor does it seem to be just the mind, nor
does it seem to be a combination of body and mind. Yet it doesn’t seem
to be something apart from mind and body. Still, it doesn’t seem to be
body-and-mind itself either. It doesn’t seem funny to say “my body,” “my
spirit,” or “my spirit and flesh,” so this thing called me seems to be
that which possesses both body and spirit. Thinking that that kind of
“me” actually exists from birth to death is the ordinary consciousness
of everyone. So then, every one of us has much pain and difficulty
throughout our lives because of that “me,” and then it causes us to
worry about the distant future: “What will happen to me after I die?”
However,
Dogen Zenji declares that believing in that “me” is confused thinking
about body and mind. In the ears of unenlightened people, it’s like a
clap of thunder in a clear sky. But since that’s the truth, it can’t be
helped. Penetrating this truth is the Buddha-dharma. From the beginning
this thing called self is only a concept without any actual substance.
It is like the horns of a hare or a turtle’s fur. The horns of a hare or
a turtle’s fur can be depicted conceptually, expressed in words, and so
on, but the actual thing does not exist. In exactly the same way, what
we call myself is only an idea with no actual entity. So, it’s confused
thinking, it’s a delusion. Deceived by this deluded, confused thinking,
we blindly pursue desires and heedlessly fight, and so on, continuing to
suffer for a whole lifetime, until in the end it even leads to a world
war. Thus, an “unenlightened person” means an existence without
compassion. The buddhas and ancestors, seeing our suffering and being
unable to bear it, earnestly expound the dharma, saying, “Quickly
realize no-self; awaken to the fact of no-self.”
“If,
intimately engaged in daily activities, one returns to right here, the
principle that the myriad dharmas have no self is clear.”
“Daily
activities” means our everyday activities. But it’s not the activities
of an unenlightened person. Here it means the activities of a person of
the Way. It is the activities of a practitioner. Therefore, it is the
activities of practicing the Buddha way. What does it mean to be
intimately engaged and to return to right here? You are not “intimate”
by levels of understanding or intellectual study. Therefore, it is no
good if you don’t penetrate Zen and practice the Way, truly penetrate
and truly investigate it thoroughly. Truly penetrating and truly
investigating it thoroughly – that’s what “intimate” means. So then,
returning to right here is a necessity.
As
for “right here,” don’t fret, thinking it is difficult. If we say it
simply, it’s “this”.” That’s a away of saying it without giving it a
name. What is “this”? It is one’s own original face. Therefore,
returning to right here is returning to “This.” In other words, it means
to fully realize and penetrate one’s own original face. If you do that,
“the principle that the myriad dharmas have no self is clear.” Though
it says principle, it is not just a matter of theory. In the
buddha-dharma, phenomenal existence and principle are never separate.
Therefore, if we say “principle,” phenomenal existence is perfectly
included in that. So then, “the principle that the myriad dharmas have
no self” refers to the myriad dharmas, all dharmas, every dharma. There
are no exceptions. This makes clear the fact that both oneself and
everything in the universe are completely without self. Then, for the
first time, one fully penetrates the fact that there is no God and no
soul. Without realizing that, one can never fully penetrate Zen. But if
you realize it and stop there, you will fall into a view of nihilism.
Among
present-day teachers, one occasionally sees some who have fallen into a
view of nihilism. A little bit of realization is a dangerous thing.
However, it is a place one must pass through at some point. It is no
good to be afraid of satori because it is dangerous. Why? Because just
intellectually understanding the theory of no-self is like knowing what
is in another person’s wallet. Even though you may know exactly what is
in it, that doesn’t make a single penny of it yours. You absolutely
cannot grasp the fact of no-self with intellectual studies. No matter
how impressed you are upon hearing that our consciousness and body arise
and perish 6,400,099,980 times a day – even though you exclaim your
understanding, saying, “Now I see,” – that can’t even begin to touch the
fact of no-self. Without penetrating the fact of no-self, you don’t
know the flavor of emptiness.
The fruit of the pear tree
And the pear
Are the one fruit of this tree.
In eating it,
There are not two tastes.
Unless
you actually eat it and see, the pear’s taste is something you will
never get to know. Do you know the taste of a pear just by studying it
intellectually and theoretically? If you could fill your body like that,
it would be very economical!
In yet another chapter, chapter 7, Hakuun Yasutani wrote,
“In
mustering the whole body and mind and seeing forms, in mustering the
whole body and mind and hearing sounds, they are intimately perceived;
but it is not like the reflection in a mirror, nor like the moon in the
water. When one side is realized the other side is dark.”
Here
Dogen Zenji shows the way in which one further actualizes Buddhahood.
Body and mind are fundamentally one. Regarding them as two is a thought,
a delusion. When you are happy, is it your mind that is happy or is it
your body that is happy? When you are hungry, is it your body or your
mind? If you say “My stomach has become empty, it must be my body,”
don’t we also say, “I realize how hungry I was?” Then, it must be the
mind. Don’t be asinine. It’s both. Both are one. When mind and body are
working separately, neither of them is any good. They are utterly
incomplete. The whole idea is extremely frivolous. Be serious. Mind and
body are always one.
Here
Dogen Zenji has shown the manner of earnestly practicing the Buddha
way. In other words it’s completely mustering the whole body and mind.
Seeing and hearing, standing and sitting, it’s completely mustering the
whole body and mind. That’s “just,” wholeheartedly. It’s just walking,
just working, just sitting. It’s just being in samadhi throughout the
twenty-four hours of the day.
This is the way of practice of our predecessors, the buddhas and ancestors. In modern terms one can call this living fully.
When
Master Hsiang-yen was sweeping the garden, he was just working with his
whole body and mind completely mustered. Therefore at the single sound
of a pebble striking bamboo, he attained great enlightenment. When the
priest Ling-yun was on pilgrimage, with his whole body and mind mustered
he was just making a pilgrimage and climbing up a mountain road.
Therefore, when he glanced at a peach blossom he attained great enlightenment. To intimately perceive is to realize the Way.
Now,
between completely mustering the whole body and mind to see forms and
to hear sounds, and intimately perceiving (attaining great
enlightenment), there is a subtle turning point.
These
two are not the same. And yet, of course, they are not unrelated.
Therein is the subtle experience called “the single sound of
enlightenment,” which is spontaneously expressed. Shakyamuni Buddha upon
his enlightenment exclaimed, “How wonderful, how wonderful!” Hsiang-yen
said, “One striking of the pebble on the bamboo and I have forgotten
everything I knew.” Ling-yun said, “Having directly arrived at this
moment, I have no further doubts.” Su Tuong-p’o sang out, “The sound of
the mountain is this broad, long tongue of the Buddha.” Thus, seeing
one’s true nature and realizing the Way is the basis of the Buddha way.
You people of the Soto sect should once again clearly recognize,
believe, and eagerly practice it. If within the sect there is no one
with the actual experience of realizing the Way, and the Shobogenzo is
dropped down to the level of thought and becomes a philosophy, I’m
afraid Dogen Zenji’s Buddhadharma will vanish from the sect like clouds
and mist.
Next
he points out in detail how to realize the Way, to intimately perceive.
“it is not like the reflection in a mirror, nor like the moon in the
water.” Here, by means of a metaphor, he clearly points out that
realizing the way is completely different from the realm of intellect
and understanding.
The
simile of the reflecting of an image in a mirror and the reflecting of
the moon in the water mean that the mirror and the reflection, the water
and the moon, are two separate things that have become one, but the
actual experience of enlightenment is a completely different matter.
Therefore, even if one can conceptually understand the principle of Zen
or intellectually comprehend the meaning of manifest absolute reality
(genjokoan), that is not enlightenment.
Enlightenment
means waking up to the world of oneness. Unenlightened people look at
everything dualistically: self and other, subject and object, delusions
and enlightenment, this world and the Pure Land, unenlightened persons
and buddhas, form and emptiness. Even if one tries to get rid of that
duality by mouthing the theory that “form is emptiness,” the seam of
“is” remains. It’s not the seamless stupa.
The
actual experience of enlightenment comes springing forth in the realm
of true oneness. And with that, one sometimes cries out in astonishment.
One becomes aware that the whole universe is just the single seamless
stupa. It's not some simplistic kind of thing like a reflection in a
mirror.
"Mountains
and rivers are not seen in a mirror." It's not that mountains, rivers,
and the earth are reflected in one's mind-mirror. That's okay when we
are using metaphors for thoughts and consciousness. But what we are
speaking of now is the realm of the actual experience of enlightenment.
The self is the mountains, rivers, and earth; the self is the sun and
moon and the stars.
The great earth has not
A single lick of soil;
New Year's first smile.
"Not
another person in the whole universe." One side is all there is,
without a second or third to be found anywhere. If one calls this
subject, everything is subject and that's all. There is no object
anywhere. It's the true mind-only. It's snatching away the objective
world but not the person. If one calls this object, everything is object
and that's all. There is no subject anywhere. It's snatching away the
person but not the objective world. It's the true matter-only. Whichever
one you say, only the label changes and it is the same thing. While
Dogen Zenji calls this completely self, he also calls it completely
other. It's all self. It's all other. This is the meaning of "when one
side is realized the other side is dark." This is also called "one side
exhausts everything." It's the whole thing, being complete with one,
exhausting everything with one.
If we look at Dogen, he couldn't have been clearer:
He
may then respond, “There are some who say: Do not grieve over birth and
death, since there is an extremely quick method for freeing yourself
from them, namely, by understanding the principle that it is the innate
nature of one’s mind to be ever-abiding, to persist without change. This
means that, because this physical body has been born, it will
inevitably come to perish, but even so, this innate nature of the mind
will never perish. When someone fully comprehends that the innate nature
of his mind—which is never swept away by birth and death—is in his
body, he sees it to be his true and genuine nature. Thus, his body is
but a temporary form, being born here and dying there, ever subject to
change, whilst his mind is ever-abiding, so there is no reason to expect
it to vary over past, present, and future. To understand the matter in
this way is what is meant by being free from birth and death. For the
one who understands this principle, his future births and deaths will
come to an end, so that when his body expires, he will enter the ocean
of real existence. When he flows into this ocean of being, he will
undoubtedly possess wonderful virtues, just as all the Buddhas and
Tathagatas have done. Even though he may realize this in his present
life, he will not be exactly the same as those Holy Ones, since he has a
bodily existence which was brought about through deluded actions in
past lives. The person who does not yet understand this principle will
be ever spun about through successive births and deaths. Therefore, we
should just make haste and fully comprehend the principle of the innate
nature of the mind being ever-abiding and persisting without change. To
pass one’s life just sitting around idly, what can be gained by that?
Such a statement as this truly corresponds to the Way of all the Buddhas
and all the Ancestors, don’t you think?”
I
would point out, “The view that you have just expressed is in no way
Buddhism, but rather the non-Buddhist view of the Shrenikans.10 This
erroneous view of theirs may be stated as follows:
In
our bodies there is a soul-like intelligence. When this intelligence,
or intellect, encounters conditions, it makes distinctions between good
and bad as well as discriminating right from wrong. It is conscious of
what is painful or itches from desire, and is awake to what is hard to
bear or easy. All such responses are within the capacity of this
intelligence. However, when this body of ours perishes, this soul-like
nature sloughs it off and is reborn somewhere else. As a result, even
though it appears to perish in the here and now, it will have its
rebirth in another place, never perishing, but always abiding unchanged.
“So
this erroneous view goes. Be that as it may, your modeling yourself
upon this view and regarding it as the Buddha’s Teaching is more foolish
than clutching onto a roof tile or a pebble in the belief that it is
gold or some precious jewel. The shamefulness of such befuddled
ignorance and delusion beggars comparison. National Teacher Echū in
Great Sung China has strongly warned us about such a view. For you to
now equate the wondrous Dharma of all the Buddhas with the mistaken
notion that your mind will abide whilst your physical features perish,
and to imagine that the very thing which gives rise to the cause of
birth and death has freed you from birth and death—is this not being
foolish? And how deeply pitiable! Be aware that this is the mistaken
view of one who is outside the Way, and do not lend an ear to it.
(10.The
Shrenikans were a group of non-Buddhists who are thought to have
followed the teachings of Shrenika, a contemporary of Shakyamuni Buddha.
On occasion, they used terms similar to those in Buddhism, but with
different meanings.)
“Because
I now feel even greater pity for you, I cannot leave the matter here,
but will try to rescue you from your erroneous view. You should
understand that, in Buddhism, we have always spoken not only of body and
mind as being inseparable, but also of the nature of something and the
form it takes as not being two different things.
As
this Teaching was likewise well known in both India and China, we dare
not deviate from It. Even more, in Buddhist instruction that speaks of
what is persistent, all things are said to have persistence without
their ever being separated into categories of ‘body’ and ‘mind’.11
In
instruction that talks about cessation, all things are said to be
subject to cessation without differentiating whether they are of some
particular nature or have some particular form. So why do you risk
contradicting the correct principle by saying that the body ceases
whilst the mind permanently abides?
Not
only that, you must fully understand that ‘birth and death’ is nirvana:
there has never been any talk of a nirvana outside of birth and death.
Moreover, even though you may erroneously reckon that there is a Buddha
Wisdom that is separate from birth and death because you have worked it
out that the mind permanently abides apart from the body, this ‘mind’ of
yours—which understands, and works matters out, and perceives things,
and knows what they are—is still something that arises and disappears,
and is in no way ‘ever-abiding’.
Surely,
this ‘mind’ of yours is something completely transitory! “You will see,
if you give it a taste, that the principle of the oneness of body and
mind is something constantly being talked about in Buddhism. So, how
does the mind, on its own, apart from the body, keep from arising and
disappearing as this body of yours arises and perishes?
Furthermore,
were they inseparable at one time and not inseparable at another, then
what the Buddha said would, naturally, be false and deceiving. “In
addition, should you suddenly get the notion that eradicating birth and
death is what the Dharma is really about, it would lead you to sullying
the Precept against despising the Buddha Dharma. Do watch out for this! “
You
must also understand that what is spoken of in the Buddha’s Teachings
as ‘the Gate to the Teaching on the vast characteristics common to the
nature of all minds’ takes in the whole universe, without dividing it
into innate natures and their forms or ever referring to things as
‘coming into existence’ or ‘perishing’.
Nothing,
up to and including realizing enlightenment and nirvana, is excluded
from the innate nature of your mind. Each and every thing throughout the
whole of the universe is simply ‘the One Mind’ from which nothing
whatsoever is excluded. All Gates to the Teaching are equally of this
One Mind. To assert that there are no differences whatsoever is the way
the Buddhist family understands the nature of Mind. So, within this one
all-inclusive Dharma, how can you separate body from mind or split
‘birth and death’ off from ‘nirvana’? You are already a disciple of the
Buddha, so do not give ear to the clatter of a lunatic’s tongue as he
utters views that are off the True Track.”
(11.
Dōgen makes a distinction between the Buddhist concept of persistence
and the Shrenikan concept of abiding. With the former, all phenomena,
physical and non-physical, arise and continue on (‘persist’) for an
unspecified period before disintegrating and disappearing, whereas with
the latter, the mind is thought to remain (‘abide’) unchanged and
unchanging forever.)
Underlying
the whole of Dōgen’s presentation is his own experience of no longer
being attached to any sense of a personal self that exists independent
of time and of other beings, an experience which is part and parcel of
his ‘dropping off of body and mind’. From this perspective of his,
anything having existence—which includes every thought and thing—is
inextricably bound to time, indeed, can be said to ‘be time’, for there
is no thought or thing that exists independent of time. Time and being
are but two aspects of the same thing, which is the interrelationship of
anicca, ‘the ever-changing flow of time’ and anatta, ‘the absence of
any permanent self existing within or independent of this flow of time’.
Dōgen has already voiced this perspective in Discourse 1: A Discourse
on Doing One’s Utmost in Practicing the Way of the Buddhas (Bendōwa),
and in Discourse 3: On the Spiritual Question as It Manifests Before
Your Very Eyes (Genjō Kōan), where he discussed the Shrenikan view of an
‘eternal self ’ and the Buddhist perception of ‘no permanent self ’.
In
the present discourse, Dōgen uses as his central text a poem by Great
Master Yakusan Igen, the Ninth Chinese Ancestor in the Sōtō Zen lineage.
In the Chinese version, each line of this poem begins with the word
uji, which functions to introduce a set of couplets describing temporary
conditions that appear to be contrastive, but which, in reality, do not
stand against each other. These conditions comprise what might be
referred to as ‘an I at some moment of time’; this is a use of the word
‘I’ that does not refer to some ‘permanent self ’, abiding unchanged
over time (as the Shrenikans maintained) but to a particular set of
transient conditions at a particular time. In other words, there is no
permanent, unchanging ‘Yakusan’, only a series of ever-changing
conditions, one segment of which is perceived as ‘a sentient being’,
which is, for convenience, conventionally referred to as ‘Yakusan’. Both
Yakusan and Dōgen understand uji (in its sense of ‘that which exists at
some time’) as a useful way of expressing the condition of anatta, and
in this sense it is used to refer to a state of ‘being’ that is neither a
‘permanent self ’ nor something separate from ‘other’; it is the ‘I’
referred to in one description of a kenshō experience (that is, the
experiencing of one’s Buddha Nature) as ‘the whole universe becoming I’.
Hence, when the false notion of ‘having a permanent self ’ is
abandoned, then what remains is just uji, ‘the time when some form of
being persists’.
After
presenting Yakusan’s poem, Dōgen focuses on that aspect of the poem
that does not deal with metaphors, images, symbols, etc., and which is
the one element in the poem that readers are most likely to pay small
heed to: the phrase uji itself. His opening statement encapsulates the
whole of what he is talking about in this text, namely: “The phrase ‘for
the time being’ implies that time in its totality is what existence is,
and that existence in all its occurrences is what time is.”
