Friends
Anatta realization is even better. As Frank Yang said https://www.instagram.com/being_frank_yang/:
"Ending the Free Will vs. Determinism Debate And why there's no "abiding" when Awareness is also the process of causes and conditions, thus lacks inherent existence.
At some point in your journey you're going to lose all sense of #agency.
Personal will is replaced by Universal Will but they're Ultimately the same because parts contains the Whole and vice versa.
When you untie the knot of perception and lose the vintage point, the doer/controller, along with the seer/hearer/thinker/perceiver/knower will also vanish.
It feels like "you" cannot make a decision but every thought and movement is the total exertion and the activities of the entire universe
How can the separate self does or think anything at all if it cannot even be located?
Rather than passive or nihilistic, moment to moment experience becomes empowering and liberating!
Permanent Flow that transcends the temporary experience of being in the zone.
Life goes on simply unfolding as it is. Without the "doer" slowing everything down, things become much more efficient and effortless. Likewise, without the "hearer", sounds hear themselves without delay.
When the body-mind is air.
The violin plays itself without the player.
While writing this the phone types itself.
While walking the whole world is turning your legs.
When eating it's the universe eating.
When shitting it's the universe shitting.
While lifting, the meatsuit doesn't get tired because the entire world is your Body and every rep feels like every part of the Cosmo is working together, flexing Itself to move the weight
some call this the Dharma Body. Cosmic Octopus. The tapestry of this Realization is visceral and actual rather than conceptual.
every note from the Cosmic Symphony from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch is perfectly in tune to make every breath and sensation precisely the way it is. All inter-penetrations in perfect harmony.
Nothing is solid, so there are no nodes, only the links.
Ultimately even the links are empty, since there are no causes and effects, only spontaneity and simultaneity because space-time also don't exist apart from the same process of causes and conditions.
(swipe to conf.) #dependentorigination

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Soh Wei Yu
Here's a quote from the video this is nice,
"Flow in Composing Music
You are in an ecstatic state to such a point that you feel as though you almost don't exist. I have experienced this time and again. My hand seems devoid of myself, and I have nothing to do with what is happening. I just sit there watching it in a state of awe and wonderment. And the music just flows out of itself."
This is good but anatta is even better -- it results in the complete dissolution of self/Self, it feels like you literally died, no you left whatsoever and not just 'almost', except there never was a 'you' to begin with - it is a truth that has always been the case but never realised before.
And it is indeed wonderful, awe and wonderment, life lived afresh and in full engagement and exertion moment to moment of this boundless expanse.
Soh Wei Yu
A good video.
Soh Wei Yu
Also relevant:
Nov
29
Differentiate Wisdom from Art
Replying to someone in Rinzai Zen discussion group, John Tan wrote recently:
“I think we have to differentiate wisdom from an art or a state of mind.
In Master Sheng Yen’s death poem,
Busy with nothing till old. (无事忙中老)
In emptiness, there is weeping and laughing. (空里有哭笑)
Originally there never was any 'I'. (本来没有我)
Thus life and death can be cast aside. (生死皆可抛)
This "Originally there never was any 'I'" is wisdom and the dharma seal of anatta. It is neither an art like an artist in zone where self is dissolved into the flow of action nor is it a state to be achieved in the case of the taoist "坐忘" (sit and forget) -- a state of no-mind.
For example in cooking, there is no self that cooks, only the activity of cooking. The hands moves, the utensils act, the water boils, the potatoes peel and the universe sings together in the act of cooking. Whether one appears clumsy or smooth in act of cooking doesn't matter and when the dishes r out, they may still taste horrible; still there never was any "I" in any moment of the activity. There is no entry or exit point in the wisdom of anatta.”
Soh Wei Yu
Jul
01
Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State
Wrote in 2018:
"If someone talks about an experience he/she had and then lost it, that's not (the true, deep) awakening... As many teachers put it, it's the great samadhi without entry and exit.
John Tan: There is no entry and exit. Especially for no-self. Why is there no entry and exit?
Me (Soh): Anatta (no-self) is always so, not a stage to attain. So it's about realisation and shift of perception.
John Tan: Yes 👍
As John also used to say to someone else, "Insight that 'anatta' is a seal and not a stage must arise to further progress into the 'effortless' mode. That is, anatta is the ground of all experiences and has always been so, no I. In seeing, always only seen, in hearing always only sound and in thinking, always only thoughts. No effort required and never was there an 'I'.""
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    • Adam Holt
      "Personal will is replaced by Universal Will but they're Ultimately the same because parts contains the Whole and vice versa."
      Incidentally this is exactly the sort of inner intent of various religious teachings about submission to God, etc.
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      Soh Wei Yu
      Yes. Personal will replaced by universal will also occurs way before anatta realization, particularly it is one of the four aspects of I AM that I started to experience only a few months after my I AM realization but before anatta realization: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../four-aspects...
      Four Aspects of I AM
      AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
      Four Aspects of I AM
      Four Aspects of I AM

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Adam Holt But after anatta insight and penetrating D.O., then the universal will becomes replaced by D.O. Nothing ontological.
      “Session Start: Saturday, 5 June, 2010
      (11:27 PM) Thusness: certainty of being when you focus on the 4 aspects till the peak and with right understanding, you will also have the same experience as anatta and emptiness. when you felt that the will of the source becomes your will, you become life itself, that is the same experience. actually all is the same experience except that buddhism provides the right understanding. in the experience of "I AM" and the article you posted about the divine, what is the peak of experience phase?
      (11:48 PM) AEN: which article about divine?
      Hmm im not sure
      (11:49 PM) Thusness: the article about the source after "I AM"
      (11:50 PM) AEN: is it like the 'sacred will of the world'
      i mean the peak of experience
      (11:51 PM) Thusness: after glimpses and realization of the source, when the divine will becomes your will. you must be able to experience every manifestation as the grace of divine will. so must understand this in terms of direct experience and right view. 🙂 i will talk to you when we meet. do you know why there is the sensation of a 'divine will'?
      (11:57 PM) AEN: bcos the sense of self is being let go... and its seen that everything is spontaneously arising from the source
      (11:58 PM) Thusness: and what is this 'source' that seems to be doing the work?
      (11:59 PM) AEN: consciousness, life?
      (11:59 PM) Thusness: isn't "I AM" the consciousness?
      (12:00 AM) AEN: ya but at the beginning it still feels like an individuated sense of presence... but then later its seen as more impersonal, like everything is merely the expression of the source
      (12:00 AM) Thusness: first you must understand the separation is due to dualistic thought, thought separates. do you know what is the 'divine' will? the sensation due to "the sense of self is being let go... and its seen that everything is spontaneously arising from the source" causes the 'divine will'
      (12:02 AM) AEN: oic..
      (12:03 AM) Thusness: what is the divine will?
      (12:03 AM) AEN: it means its happening due to the divine source, nothing is happening due to an individual will/agent/doer
      (12:04 AM) Thusness: when someone hit the bell, anything due to divine will?
      (12:05 AM) AEN: its also divine will bcos there is ultimately no separate person who acts, and no separate person who experience.. everything is manifested by the divine will... including every action that is spontaneously arising
      (12:05 AM) Thusness: when someone hit the bell, anything so divine?
      (12:05 AM) AEN: it’s a manifestation of consciousness
      (12:05 AM) Thusness: no good no good. because of the lack of understanding of your nature. your nature is empty. what is this divine will? it is just DO [dependent origination]. because we think in terms of entity and the 'weight of this dualistic and inherent' tendencies makes us feel separate and inherent. instead of seeing 'DO', we see it as divine will. not knowing empty nature, we mistaken DO for divine will. not knowing no-self nature, we thought we are independent. when no-self is fully experienced and insight of anatta rises, you do not feel source as separated from 'you'
      there is merely manifestation, empty luminosity. empty as in DO and therefore does not require 'divine will', yet all manifests due to empty nature, effortless and spontaneous. there is conditions that are required for manifestations. a 'divine will' is not necessary
      (12:11 AM) AEN: icic..
      (12:12 AM) Thusness: when a practitioner realizes no-self and anatta insight arises, he clearly sees conditions. there is no divine will to listen to, but whenever condition is, manifestation is. slowly understand this. do not see DO as something dead. see it as direct manifestation of your breathe just like you experience everything as the grace of this divine will. feel this grace of life everywhere. letting go of yourself completely and feel this life
      (12:18 AM) AEN: oic.. i am writing my experience to lzls lol
      (5:36 PM) Thusness: Lol. In Chinese

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      (6:12 PM) Thusness: the second experience is more of 天地同根,万物同体. (tian di tong gen, wan wu tong ti: heaven and earth have one root, ten thousand phenomena have the same substance)
      (6:12 PM) Thusness: clouded by '我相' (wo xiang, self image, egoity)
      (6:12 PM) AEN: what do you mean
      (6:13 PM) Thusness: means the second experience is more of a realization on the same source.
      much like ?
      (6:13 PM) AEN: oic..
      why you said clouded by wo xiang
      (6:15 PM) Thusness: ? (xiang, image) is simply a construct. That is from a dualistic point of view, being 'connected' must always be the case. When you de-contruct personality, you merely discover. a practitioner must also be aware of the 'weight' of these constructs. from an empty point of view, when the tendency is there, it is also not right to say that the interconnected state is always there, always the case. Obviously 'you' are not 'connected'. when the 'construct' is strong, there is no such experience or when the 'personality' is there, there is no experience of '万物同体' (everything has the same substance/source). Or 'personality' is that very experience of individuality and therefore cannot have any experience of same 'source'. get it?
      (6:19 PM) AEN: ic.. ya
      (6:19 PM) Thusness: the former does not realize the causes and conditions for any arising. when we say it is always 'there' we are having 'absolute view'. If we cling to that, then that will prevent clear seeing. So what is the experience of 'individuality' like? it is the very experience of what practitioner before the 'connection' feel and understand. that is a state of reality, cannot be said to be determined or not.
      (6:21 PM) AEN: oic.. what you mean by that is a state of reality cannot be said to be determined or not
      (6:22 PM) AEN: hmm i think i get what you mean. so one must deconstruct the individuality otherwise there is no feeling of connection
      (6:22 PM) Thusness: yes. for personality is the very state of individuality. what i want you to understand is not to have a pre-determined state.
      (6:26 PM) AEN: ic... that means according to conditions we experience the connection, but its not always there?
      (6:27 PM) Thusness: yes it is better to understand that way
      (6:28 PM) Thusness: now when you experience certainty of being, you only experience the undeniability of your existence. doubtless, certain and present. but being connected to the source is different. it will also determine your later phase of practice. if you are attached to the Presence, what happened?
      (6:31 PM) AEN: hmm. you mean when you are attached to Presence you will have difficulty seeing the connection?
      (6:31 PM) Thusness: you wanted the state of Presence to transcend to the 3 states (waking, dreaming and sleeping) for you are only interested in that Certainty of Being. whereas when you realized the source, you don't do that. you are surrendering much like the christian. you are devoting. nothing is important besides serving the divine. sustaining the state of presence and devoting to a divine source is different. you sleep when it is time to sleep. whatever thy will is. in Presence, you still think of control, in surrendering, you realized you are being lived. Awareness is being done. it is almost the opposite, but then there is also the integration
      (6:35 PM) AEN: oic.. Actually i think if we let go of control completely the presence is also naturally there, there is no need to try to control presence
      (6:36 PM) Thusness: if you think that, that becomes a hindrance
      (6:36 PM) AEN: oic how come
      (6:36 PM) Thusness: coz you are torn in between. you are serving 2 masters. 😛 Presence and source. but then there is also the integration where divine will becomes your will. then in jacob ladder meditation, after realization and experience of the grace, it must be found everywhere. therefore you return to phase 1 of the ladder with new understanding. you are directly and intuitively experiencing all manifestations as the expression of life. where you and the divine become one, where phenomena and the divine becomes indistinguishable, as transient, as inner and outer world
      (6:40 PM) AEN: oic..
      (6:40 PM) Thusness: however that is because we are trying to express and understand this in an inherent and dualistic way. we speak in such a way because we are using a dualistic paradigm. and the experience seems difficult to reconcile and become seamless. so you must arise insight. you realized, what you call Self/self is just a label. this is very difficult to understand. then you are not trapped in 'reconnection' or surrendering.
      You realized there is no-self (Soh: Thusness Stage 4 and 5). whatever experienced is vividly present and aliveness everywhere because what that 'blocks' is no more there through the arising insight. now how clear are you in directly experiencing sensation? in experiencing sound, color, sight, taste? the mind at present is more interested in the behind reality. so anatta transform the experience of individuality through insight, clear seeing. there is a difference in saying what you call Awareness has always been sight, sound, the scent of fragrance… and there is Awareness and there is sound, sight, taste… when you see and mature your insight of anatta, it is realized that wrong view is what that is causing the problem. however after that, you must practice directly
      (6:48 PM) AEN: what do you mean practice directly
      (6:48 PM) Thusness: means you don't think theoretically too much after the arising insight of anatta, there is a difference between thinking that a Weather truly exist and the changing clouds, the rain exist inside weather. get it? so when you took that to be real, it creates the problem of reification and intensifying the inherent existence of Self. if there is no-weight to the constructs, then there would be no problem. unfortunately, constructs are like spells. 🙂
      (6:51 PM) AEN: oic..
      (6:52 PM) Thusness: do you get what i meant? just experience first. feel this aliveness everywhere. in other words, what you realized is beyond ? (xiang4: [imputed] appearance), but you do not understand the impact of ? (xiang4: [imputed] appearance). anyway you can send your article to your lzls for comments. :)” - June, 2010

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      *Jacob ladder also talks about the four aspects of I AM after I Am: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../good-for-different...
      A Meditation: Climbing Jacob's Ladder
      AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
      A Meditation: Climbing Jacob's Ladder
      A Meditation: Climbing Jacob's Ladder

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    • Anurag Jain
      From the ultimate standpoint there is no cause and effect so there is no "universe exerting" 🙂
      Ultimate standpoint is inconceivable emptiness. Closest approximation to it is space and light.....

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Yes what dependently originates ultimately empty and non-arisen, but conventionally expressed as dependent arising:
      John Tan's Reply to Andre on Emptiness
      Andre:
      One may think that a laptop is empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions, but *now that it has arisen* it's actually 'here in front of us and is made of matter, it's black, it has a certain weight and it's square-shaped'.
      Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
      Instead of "empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions", should also contemplate deeply the opposite : empty therefore dependent on conditions are possible.
      End-->-->-->-->
      But we're told that the laptop is empty in the sense that it has *never arisen*. What could it mean?
      Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
      When we use the term "non-arisen", we are talking about the traditional two truth model so we must look at both the ultimate and conventional nature. In ultimate analysis the "laptop" is empty and non-arisen; conventionally the "laptop" arose and the only valid mode of arising is via causes and conditions.
      We follow the view and its praxis until the nature of mind and phenomena is clearly understood analytically. Until gnosis (prajna) is able to intuitive emptiness free from extremes/conceptualities/all elaborations.
      Take note that the path of non affirmative negation is only part of the story and to Mipham without seeing coalescence of appearance and emptiness, it is considered notional emptiness. He presents the 4 stages of Madhyamaka experiences as emptiness --> coalescence --> lack of elaborations --> equality.
      It is a gradual approach where the insight and experience of former phase will form the foundation for the next phase to arise until the non-conceptual gnosis of spontaneous presence is realized.
      What lies after is the pure, unfabricated, uncontrieved view of spontaneous presence which is inexpressible since it is beyond all notions and elaborations.
      I think these 4 phases r extremely helpful pointers for ATR ppl post anatta insight. Before that, the nature of mind and phenomena is still unclear. For u, the insights and experiences are there but the view is still very weak and needs lots of refinement. This is not ur fault, me included (🤣) as we start from koan and contemplate on short stanzas. However if u want to have firmed and stable progress, u got to keep refining Ur view.
      End-->-->-->-->
      I don't fully understand non-arising yet, but I'd say it means that the laptop isn't actually solid or made of matter, even as it's resting right in front of us and we touch it. If it was actually made of matter, then it wouldn't be empty - it would have an intrinsic characteristic. But we're told in the Heart Sutra that 'form is emptiness'. So, form itself is devoid of nature, so it isn't truly form - it only appears so. And if the form element is empty, no object can possess it as an intrinsic characteristic.
      Since mind and matter originates in dependence, investigated mind instead of matter. Emptiness without
      Moreover, the laptop being material depends on being perceived by a non-material consciousness, so its materiality doesn't stand alone; it must be cognized externally as to be established - it's not self-established. The same with its being square or 'in front of us'. Likewise, consciousness does not stand alone - it requires the laptop so as to be able to 'arise as perception of laptop'.
      Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
      One point to take note here is when Nagarjuna talked about dependency, it is not just nominal dependency but also existential dependency. Like the comment I made on Andre previous post:-
      This undeniable conviction of "in here" is real and "undeniably exist" WITHOUT conceptual constructs is the "inherentness" that must be deconstructed. For without "externality", how does the sense of "internality" arise? If they r dependent, how could they exist truly?
      The seeing through of their dependent designations also renders the seeing through of their existence.
      End-->-->-->-->
      That the laptop is square-shaped is a notion imputed onto the vivid clarity of experience. That it's black likewise; that it's out there too.
      Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
      Vivid clarity isn't within the scope of mmk. However Mipham has two models of two truth, one is the traditional madhyamaka 2 truth model and second is the authentic(non-dual non-inherent non-conceptual)/inauthentic experiential model. Andre's previous poem of equating DO with spontaneous presence belongs more to the second model.
      -->-->-->-->
      I think the point is to empty all appearances of any notion that we might want to impute on them. Why? It reduces grasping and thus suffering. And, importantly, it opens the door to the transformation of experience. We're told that, in full enlightenment, experience sheds off its 'mortal skin' of ordinary body-mind and transforms into enlightened bodies and wisdom. That can't happen if experience is framed in confined structures of subject and object, mind and matter, limited and unlimited, space and time, etc. We can't wake up from a dream while still believing some aspects of it to be real, even if we've seen through the dream-character and some parts of the landscape.
      Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
      Relating grasping and suffering to imputations is more than a matter of logical deduction.
      We can deduced by asking:
      how does the mind grasp at all when conditioned existence r seen through?
      How does mind grasp when it is free from all fabricated notions and elaborations?
      We may also conclude that in fact mind comes to a total cessation when it's free from all elaborations.
      But from practice point of view (imo), we must be thoroughly convinced and taste through experience that each conceptual construct has a set of emotional weights associated with it. Be it "self", "phenomena", "arising", "production", "existence" ...etc. Some releases r as powerful as anatta and mind-body dropped, some r like putting down a heavy load and often accompanied by a light sense of joy. This point was very well described and articulated by Aditya Prasad.
      -->-->-->-->
      "Don't try to bend the spoon, it's impossible. Instead, realize the truth. What truth? There is no spoon."
      Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
      Tell Andre to eat his food with his "spoon"! 🤣
      -->-->-->-->
      Labels: Emptiness, John Tan, Madhyamaka, Mipham Rinpoche |

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      [10:04 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: malcolm:
      MMK refutes any kind of production other than dependent origination. It is through dependent origination that emptiness is correctly discerned. Without the view of dependent origination, emptiness cannot be correctly perceived, let alone realized. The MMK rejects production from self, other, both, and causeless production, but not dependent origination. The MMK also praises the teaching of dependent origination as the pacifier of proliferation in the mangalam. The last chapter of MMK is on dependent origination. The MMK nowhere rejects dependent origination, it is in fact a defense of the proper way to understand it. The only way to the ultimate truth (emptiness) is through the relative truth (dependent origination), so if one’s understanding of relative truth is flawed, as is the case with all traditions outside of Buddhadharma, and even many within it, there is no possibility that ultimate truth can be understood and realized.
      ...
      Buddhism does not define “individual minds” as such, but rather discrete, momentary continuums which arise from their own causes and conditions. In short, jivas, pudgalas, atmans, etc., do not function as defined by their proponents, so they are negated.
      ...
      Things appear to be discrete, so we label them “discrete.” If things appear to be nondiscrete, we are not able to label them as discrete. For example, from a distance a mountain does not appear to be composed of discrete parts, so we label that appearance “mountain.” When we get closer, we see there are many parts, and what was formally labeled a mountain gets redefined into slopes, peaks, ravines, and so on. When we meet someone, we label that person a self, a person, a living being, but these labels attached to appearances will not bear analysis. It’s the same with mental continuum’s, even the notion of mental continuum will not bear ultimate analysis, but since the cause and result of karma, etc., appear to be discrete, mind streams are, conventionally speaking, discrete, because there is an observable function.. If we wish to aggregate minds, we refer to all consciousnesses as the dhatu of consciousness, just as we refer to aggregated elements as the space dhatu, etc.
      ...
      The argument that a knower is a self has already been advanced and dismantled in Buddhist texts. If a knower can have many cognitions, it already has many parts and cannot be a unitary or an integral entity. We are therefore not operating here at a position prior to recognizing discrete entities, the very fact that our minds (citta) are variegated (citra) proves the mind is not an integral entity, proves it is made of parts, and since those cognitions happen sequentially, this proves the mind is also impermanent, momentary, and dependent. So, it is impossible for a conventional knower to be a self.
      [10:09 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: The DO part is really good.
      [10:10 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: When did malcom say that? Recently or in the past?
      [10:10 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
      [10:11 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: from above
      [10:11 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: the others from here https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=36283...
      [10:30 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: Many misunderstand that oh ultimately it is empty and DO is conventional therefore conceptual so ultimately empty non-existence.
      We must understand what is meant by empty ultimately but conventionally valid. Nominal constructs are of two types, those that r valid and those that r invalid like "rabbit horns". Even mere appearances free from all elaborations and conceptualities, they inadvertently manifest therefore the term "appearances". They do not manifest randomly or haphazardly, they r valid mode of arising and that is dependent arising. When it is "valid" means it is the acceptable way of explanation and not "rabbit horn" which is non-existence. This part I mentioned in my reply to Andre.
      DHARMAWHEEL.NET
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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu please answer my comment directly.....
      Dependent Origination is a conventional theory advanced to understand ultimate reality......

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      My two posts above addressed your point. The ultimate does not reject dependent origination, in fact it is what allows it and thus it 'validifies' rather than 'refutes' dependent origination.
      This is clearly explained by Nagarjuna in Chapter 24 of MMK, see excerpts in http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../how-experiential...
      and other places.
      How Experiential Realization Helps in Liberation
      AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
      How Experiential Realization Helps in Liberation
      How Experiential Realization Helps in Liberation

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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu and I find Malcolm's interpretations of Buddhdharma spiritually racist and elitist..... totally violating compassion which Buddhadharma is ultimately about.

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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu how can there be DO while rejecting cause and effect ultimately. The MMK moves through various refutations, with even emptiness being seen as empty and not a view to be upheld...

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Discerning what is correct and faulty is not racist at all. It has nothing to do with race.
      If you want to call that 'elitist' then by all means. Buddha would be so called 'elitist' by your definition then. We are certainly no perennialists, even though we may appreciate the good points about other teachings. We do not condemn others for their belief (unless they are violent extremists or hold other very harmful beliefs) but we do not necessarily think they are all equally correct or valid or useful.
      Cula-sihanada Sutta (MN 11) -- The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar {M I 63} [Ñanamoli Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi, trans.] - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.011.ntbb.html , the Buddha declares that only through practicing in accord with the Dhamma can Awakening be realized. His teaching is distinguished from those of other religions and philosophies through its unique rejection of all doctrines of self. [BB]
      .....
      61. And the Blessed One spoke, saying: "In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.[54] Now in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness. Devoid of true ascetics are the systems of other teachers. But if, Subhadda, the bhikkhus live righteously, the world will not be destitute of arahats. - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Have you read Chapter 24? And the article does state how MMK does not end up with a view of non-existence or nihilism. Emptiness is not non-existence.
      [1:59 PM, 6/6/2021] John Tan: What Kyle said is good. However that is not what Tsongkhapa key insight. U have to understand Tsongkhapa elevated the status of conventional that is dependent arising and emptiness of the conventional to equal the uncategorized ultimate. That is the categorized and uncategorised ultimate are of equal status. Means Pt 5 and 6.
      [2:12 PM, 6/6/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
      [2:23 PM, 6/6/2021] John Tan: For the 3 other schools, the conventional that is based on conventions and conceptualities r to be discarded after seeing through much like post anatta insight into direct non-conceptuality and non-duality.
      But y is conventional so important? As I have said many times Tsongkhapa did not dis-regard freedom from all elaborations and in his early days he did accept the ultimate purpose of mmk is freedom from all elaborations. Further he did mention about the categorized and the uncategorised ultimate, so the question is y did an accomplished master placed so much emphasis of the conventional?
      [4:20 PM, 6/6/2021] John Tan: Many enters mmk without having direct taste of what emptiness of svabhava entails. Like what Westerhoff said:
      "... give us very little insight into how the removal of such superimpositions could be possible and what it would entail. The reason is obvious: according to the traditional Buddhist view, those who have realized (as opposed to merely understood) the absence of svabhāva and thereby emptiness are few and far between."
      Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka Pg 51 by Westerhoff
      So those having post anatta insight have the advantage to orientate themselves better and not get swayed by too much philosophical concepts and ideas abt mmk and missed the essential points.
      However getting used to how Nagarjuna structured his lines of reasonings and agrumentations can be a real pain initially if we do not have background y it is done that way. Nagarjuna was refuting the various views of his opponents and the major Buddhist systems of his time and frankly the tenets held by some of the major systems r still deeply ingrained in most modern ppl today including u and me. So going through mmk helps us uncover all these traits and put them into perspective with thorough investigations. This is the part where many ATR ppl will find difficulties when jumping into mmk as their approach was more of koan based -- direct and intuitive. The mmk on the other hand is opposite, very academic presented by the scholars even in the case of Westerhoff that is also y I din intro u his book. But he prompted many very important points like on page 126, Westerhoff said:
      "The Mādhyamika therefore has to explain how we can account for an object changing and persisting through time without having to assume that there is some unchanging aspect of the object which underlies all change. Nāgārjuna claims that this can indeed be done. Understanding how this can be the case becomes particularly important in the context of the Buddhist conception of the self when the temporal continuity of persons has to be explained without reference to the concept of a persisting subjective core (ātman)."
      Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka Pg 126 by Westerhoff
      This is I think what Tsongkhapa clearly sees where many din where he creatively talk about how the mere-I takes rebirth.
      Also in page 99, Westerhoff remarked:
      "It also has to be noted that Nāgārjuna asserts, somewhat puzzlingly, that the absence of svabhāva, that is, emptiness, is not compatible with causation either"
      This part is also important how should dependent arising be understood on top of the idea of "no essential nature".
      So if u really want to understand what I meant by point 5-6 in my reply to William, u must understand these few questions.
      Otherwise u can learn from mmk to see how dependent relations in terms of nominal and existential dependencies, agency-action, object-properties and cause-conditions-effect relationships help to
      render svabhava as untenable.These reasonings will help the mind to release itself from grasping after svabhava in time to come. If the verses of mmk can go along with some vipassana exercises, that will be excellent. The combination will liberate the mind from all ghost images created by languages and conceptual superimpositions in a thorough and powerful way. Unfortunately this can't be found in books so u have to devise urself along the way...lol. 😂

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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu as always you are an "extremely poor reader" blinded by your superiority complex of Buddhism.
      Nowhere did I talk of nihilism or non existence. Would be really happy, if you could point out anywhere I have talked of nihilism or non-existence .
      I am surprised by your extreme obstinacy in this regard. You never seem to learn anything from anyone's conversations held with you before, no matter how many times the same point has been discussed.

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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu I call Malcolm and you racists and elitists because you feel you know what other non dual paths talk about....

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Your rejection of dependent origination and convention would be classified as nihilism in Buddhism.
      Then when it comes to certain people who I shall not name names or examples because anyway they really are common, they would fall onto a nihilist view on the side of the relative, and the eternalist view on the side of the ultimate. After your anatta breakthrough I don't think you hold an eternalist view regarding Awareness. But just stating that this view is kind of popular.
      “Non-arising [anutpāda] is a synonym for emptiness [śūnyatā] and is the heart of Madhyamaka.
      Nihilism [ucceda] is the negation of convention, the negation of appearance, or the reification of non-existence [abhāva].
      Non-arising is not equivalent to any of those positions.
      In his Madhyamakālaṃkāra, Śantarakṣita states:
      "Therefore, the tathāgatas have said
      ‘All phenomena do not arise’ because this conforms with the ultimate. This ‘ultimate.’ in reality, is free from all proliferation. Because there is no arising and so on, nonarising and so on isn't possible, because its entity has been negated."
      - Kyle Dixon

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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu I did not do any negation of conventions. I said conventions are empty....... DO too is empty and Emptiness is also empty.....
      There are various viewpoints which a seeker comes across in his seeking where total emptiness is still not realized and objective views and realities are reified...
      Total exertion of universe is one of them....

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Kyle Dixon, 2019:
      “...the heart of the buddhadharma and Dzogchen in general is the jñāna that results from recognizing the non-arising of phenomena.
      If that jñāna is revealed in your mindstream then you will know the meaning of dependent origination.
      All practices of Dzogchen and the buddhadharma aim to awaken you so that this is experientially known.
      You have to differentiate interdependence i.e., dependent existence [parabhāva] and dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda].
      They are not the same.
      Nāgārjuna discusses the difference in many of his works.
      Parabhāva is as you mentioned above, “interdependence,” things depending on things in a coarse sense. Nāgārjuna states that parabhāva is actually a guise for svabhāva, which is the main object of refutation in his view. Thus mistaking parabhāva for pratītyasamutpāda is a major error.
      He also states that s/he who sees dependent existence [parabhāva], inherent existence [svabhāva], existence [bhāva] or non-existence [abhāva], do not see the truth of the buddha’s teaching.
      The main point is that we cannot mistake dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda] for mere interdependence.”

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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu and by emptiness I mean, they "appear' to exist but do not exist objectively or substantially....

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Ok I see your point. But you should also see Nagarjuna's point, and also JT: "Instead of "empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions", should also contemplate deeply the opposite : empty therefore dependent on conditions are possible."

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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu good that you put the word "arose" in asterix marks.... 🙂
      So all arising is conventionally spoken of but ultimately empty.
      Or
      Even though there is an arising, there are no arisings...

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    • Anurag Jain
      Soh Wei Yu and what I have written above is from my own experience which is exactly what is mentioned as a quote by Santarakshita.... in your earlier comment.

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