[10:06 am, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Wrote yesterday:

Someone who went through I AM and one mind (nondual) but having the metaphysical view of an absolute Brahman wrote:

It sounds like integration more than revelation. Are you not still within your body? Though you feel connected to everything and give yourself up, here you are - and can you claim to have done it completely selflessly? Wasn't Anatta attained by you, for the benefit of you?

Saying you are just the manifestation is like saying you are just the dream at night; the body and world are dream, but you are there to give life to it, transcending and transitioning from one manifestation to another.

There is never a time when you are not, if there were there would be no experience of it. So while it's true to say that Self and manifestation arise mutually, doesn't the fact that you transcend forms and faces, that you are the continuity between lives, make the term "Self" closer to the truth?

How can one even be truly self-less? You can sacrifice your conceptual attachment to a persona, or relative identity, but it's still you seeing this happen - feeling the difference before the sacrifice and after.

Again, I fully appreciate collapsing experience and manifestation into the Self - feeling no separation between observer and observed - but when it's truly seen that there is no separation, where does the need to negate the Self arise? When you say it's experientially the same, but the insight of Self is wrong, you're turning Truth into an object to be witnessed and conceptualised.

Please don't give me past documents or statements from others. Speak to me human to human. Give me your present and spontaneous insight :)


Soh replied:

What is crucial here is not simply non-dual experience and experiencing presence in both the foreground and background and in the 3 states (waking, dreaming, dreamless deep sleep). Most teachers only get up to that point and teach up to that level. That is not realizing our true empty nature but our luminous essence and then attempting to integrate that realization of luminous essence in foreground/background/3 states as a practice but not realizing the key to the full blown maturity of it, non referentiality and effortlessness lies in a breakthrough in paradigm (from inherency and duality to non-dual and emptiness) through direct realization.

In John Tan and my path (and countless others), at a later point we come to understand the difference between luminosity and empty nature (luminosity here refers to the radiant aspect of Presence-Awareness, and emptiness refers to the lack of intrinsic existence or unchanging independent essence of Presence/Self/Phenomena). Very often, people rely on the experience and not true realization of the view. The right view (of anatta (no-self), dependent origination and emptiness) is like a neutralizer that neutralizes dualistic and inherent views; by itself, there is nothing to hold. So realize what right view is pointing and all experiences will come naturally. The right enlightenment experience is like what Zen Master Dogen described, not merely a non-dual state where experiencer and what's experienced collapses into a non-dual stream of experience.

Hence what is crucial is to attain the realization of anatta and emptiness. The first breakthrough of anatta (Thusness Stage 5 realization) will be the most crucial, or as John Tan said that is 60~70% done. The very subtle cognitive obscurations will take the full maturity of emptiness wisdom (Thusness Stage 6) to clear.

Even after non-dual (Thusness Stage 4) or the collapse of subject-object duality, there are distinctions and gradations of non-duality in terms of insight. We call it one mind, no mind, and anatta. One mind is post non-dual but subsuming leaving trace (everything is arising within awareness, awareness is not within its contents but subsumed into an overarching context that is inseparable from its contents, like body is in awareness but awareness is not in body). No mind is just one mind except that there is evenness till the last trace is gone, such that it (mind/presence/awareness) is experienced as simply the very substance and fabric of manifestation. Yet there is no breakthrough in view, so the understanding is still one mind (unchanging mirror is not its reflections, unchanging sky is not its clouds) but having peak experiences of no mind (overarching awareness forgotten into the mere radiance of appearance). When you go from dual to non dual or one mind to no mind, those are stages and experiences. If one has the condition to get pointed out that originally there never was a mind, there are no stages to climb, that is original mind. This requires insights and wisdom. The original mind spoken here does not mean some unborn metaphysical primordial mind such as the I AM, but the originally, already-is nature of mind -- empty of itself -- "originally there never was a mind", empty of all self/Self. Zen Master Bodhidharma the founder of Zen/Ch'an in China that started the whole tradition extending into Japan and south east asia, he emphasized this doctrine of No-Mind and even has a treatise called 'Doctrine of No Mind' that explains this in detail. For him the 'No Mind' is not spoken as a peak experience but a deep insight/clear seeing that there never was a mind. It is simply pointing to the crucial realization of anatman.

In Zen, although they say there is no mind, they in fact embrace mind more fully than all is mind, until no trace of mind can be detected. Yet Ven. Sheng Yen said this is just the entry point of zen because originally there is no mind and this is clearly realized in anatta. So post anatta, mind and phenomena are completely indistinguishable. If both mind and phenomena are completely indistinguishable in experience, then distinctions are nothing more than conventional designation of empty luminous display.

We see the same emphasis in Vajrayana, particularly the Mahamudra teachings which John and I love. For example the 9th Karmapa says, "All phenomena are illusory displays of mind. Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind. Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded, manifesting as everything whatsoever. Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut. Naturally manifesting appearances, that never truly exist, are confused into objects. Spontaneous intelligence, under the power of ignorance, is confused into a self. By the power of this dualistic fixation, beings wander in the realms of samsaric existence. May ignorance, the root of confusion, he discovered and cut. It is not existent--even the Victorious Ones do not see it. It is not nonexistent--it is the basis of a basis of all samsara and nirvana. This is not a contradiction, but the middle path of unity."

Even the Buddha has not seen the mind. There never was a mind, yet conventionally all appearances are mind, luminous and empty.

To bring it back to the point -- the crucial insight here is the realization of the emptiness of Mind, the emptiness of Awareness, that it never existed in and of itself apart from manifestation and conditions. In hearing there is just sound, hearing is just sound, never a hearer. In seeing, seeing is just colors, never a seer. Just like wind is simply the blowing and not an agent of blowing, and there is no wetness of water besides water and no water besides wetness, no fire apart from heat nor heat apart from an instance of fire burning - it is not that one is the essence of the other, they are completely indistinguishable and its distinctions are nothing more than conventional designations of the empty luminous display. You can't even distinguish it in terms of front and back of a palm. Any more than you can distinguish the lightning from the flash or the flash apart from lightning except as a conventional linguistic structure spoken in convenience. There is no agent-agency-action, subject-action-object in reality. When this is thoroughly seen, then there will no longer be a tendency to reify an unchanging metaphysical essence.

But this insight is not to deny the Mind/Heart-essence/Pure Presence-Awareness. On the contrary the purpose is to have full blown experience of the heart/mind/awareness/buddha-nature -- boundlessly, completely, non-dually and non-locally in every situations, in all conditions, in all events, as the pristine vibrancy of colors, sounds, scents, touch, taste, thought. It does not deny the authentication of 'I AM' as the aspect of thought realm in samadhi but equalizes that luminous taste in all manifestations and abolishes all fabricated hierarchies and categorization (such as noumenon vs phenomenon, unchanging vs changing, etc). All are just occurrences/appearances/mind/luminous and empty. It eliminates unnecessary contrivity so that our essence can be expressed without obscuration. As long as there is the sense or delusion that Awareness is a background mirror reflecting phenomena or even being inseparable with phenomena, there is effort and struggle. No matter how much you attempt to integrate, there will always be struggle and effort if the paradigm held is based on the delusion of duality and inherency, much like the attempt to integrate wind from blowing, wetness with water, lightning with flash. Or as John Tan said a decade+ ago, "it is because we are unable to see with complete clarity that appearance is awareness that 'practice' is necessary. Otherwise 'practice' is just every moment of experience"

Lastly, on rebirth and continuity:

All traditions of Buddhism has explained at lengths on how to account for an object changing and persisting through time without having to assume that there is some unchanging aspect of the object which underlies all change. This can indeed be done if dependent origination and emptiness is properly understood. That is, there is conventionally, the temporal continuity of persons happening via dependent origination, but without the need of a persisting subjective core (ātman) being passed on or transferred from lifetime to lifetime. Consciousness in Buddhism is not understood as an unchanging noumenon of phenomena but as mind-moments/manifestation inseparable from conditions.

An analogy I gave earlier is that it is like a candle lighting another candle, from moment to moment, this stream of dependent origination 'continues' but without an unchanging and persisting entity/self/Self acting as a medium or entity transferring from one moment or lifetime to another.

And as to your question, "Wasn't Anatta attained by you, for the benefit of you?" the answer is yes, indeed it is, conventionally.

We have to understand when we talk about anatman, it is not a denial of conventional selves. For example, the Buddha never used the term "self" to refer to an unconditioned, permanent, ultimate entity. He also never asserted that there was no conventional "self," the subject of transactional discourse. So, it is very clear in the sutras that the Buddha negated an ultimate self and did not negate a conventional self.

Anatman is the negation of an unconditioned, permanent, ultimate entity that moves from one temporary body to another. It is not the negation of "Sam," "Fred," or "Jane" used as a conventional designation for a collection of aggregates. Since the Buddha clearly states in many Mahāyāna sūtras, "all phenomena" are not self, and since everything is included there, including buddhahood, therefore, there are no phenomena that can be called a self, and since there are nothing outside of all phenomena, a "self," other than an arbitrary designation, does not exist.

Or as John Tan said a decade ago, "To me is just is "Soh" an eternal being...that's all. No denial of Soh as a conventional self... ...Doesn't mean Soh does not exist… lol. Or I am you or you are me. Just not construing and reifying."

So from the context of anatman/emptiness teachings or Buddhadharma, we do not negate conventions such as our nominal identity, or even as an agent who can engage in activity in a purely nominal or conventional sense.
 
Identity is negated ultimately, through the cessation of the conditioned mind, however we are still free to implement conventional distinctions. Otherwise we end up like neo-Advaita. Saying "who recognizes? Who is there to stabilize? No one wakes up." These are unnecessary statements if the teaching is understood.

In truth, a 'self' is merely an arbitrary designation just like the word 'weather' is an arbitrary designation applied to a collection of conditions that we also arbitrarily label as 'rain falling, wind blowing, sun shining, lightning flashing' and so on and so forth. In reality there is no weather to be found as a reality existing in and of itself apart from a convenient arbitrary designation for the collection, just as there is also no self/Self/awareness to be found existing in and of itself besides the empty and luminous display/appearance.

Yet, conventions serve to indicate functions accurate to the characteristic, process or entity they are designating. The convention is a tool for communication and given that we are already functioning on the premise that everything is empty, the convention in question is ultimately treated as an inference. Therefore there is freedom to employ whatever convention is fitting to the context, as long as it is accurate in its application.

In this sense you can say the conventional identity realizes emptiness and this is not an assertion that actually reifies said identity. In another context the inclusion of an agent, identity or entity related to the realization of emptiness is also extraneous. The process of delusion and the cessation of delusion is in one sense, a completely agentless process, all happening due to dependent origination.

The two truths (conventional and ultimate) underpins the Buddhist teachings. One falls into error if one does not properly understand the two truths, and the union or inseparability of these two truths.

"the body and world are dream, but you are there to give life to it, "

If one realises that transients are presence, then transients themselves are full and Total Life, Total Intelligence, Total Clarity. Why is 'I AM' needed? This is a deeper realisation beyond "I AMness". Intelligence and aliveness are all around, in all moments and everywhere. Orphan thoughts and sensations and perceptions are intelligent, luminously clear and spontaneous. So why do you need 'someone' to be the center of these orphan thoughts? That center is really moulded by propensities. One can directly experience this. All manifestations are Presence in no-self and the transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking; it is a matter of living in Beingness or living in constant identification. Beingness flows and identification stays. Identification is any attempt to return to Oneness without knowing its nature is already non-dual. If everything is already intelligent, allow transients to come and go, they are more intelligent than what the "I" thought. Experience the full presence of all transients.

There can be no spontaneity if there is a center. It is better to think and see that every cell is on its own and is self luminous then to think that there is a linking center that controls and co-ordinates. It is better to realize that everything flows and knows on its own without a separate knower, than to abstract out the luminosity into an agent, entity, or knower.

All appearances/dream are both empty and luminous simultaneously. They are empty in the sense of having no true existence of its own/inherent existence, no reality. But paradoxically they are all at the same time the pure brilliance and luminosity of pure presence. There is no need to seek for anything else, just apprehending the nature of the very appearance is to apprehend Mind and the nature of mind (its luminosity and emptiness).

p.s. There is no "I" that "transcends forms and faces", there are just infinite diversity of faces, each as intimate as any other, each as luminous and empty as any other, be it forms, formless, or what have you, yet as vivid and alive and nondual as each face 'is', each face/appearance self-liberates upon appearance without a trace like drawing on water, nothing more than a momentary flash

As I wrote in 2012,

“Every moment is an encounter of my thousand faces. The sound of thunder, every drop of rain, every heartbeat, every breath, every thought. Experience, experience, experience, experience!”
-    Soh, 2012

I've been overwhelmed by the number of messages I get lately in Reddit and Facebook and so on and may have missed out some messages, so my apologies if I have not gotten back to you for some time.
 

You are all welcomed to join and participate in our Awakening to Reality group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality

It now has 800+ members and still growing rapidly.

Many in the group has had insights into anatta and emptiness and will be able to offer good advices.

Mr ED went through the I AM and experienced dissociative and other associated unpleasant mental conditions before. Now he is very eager to penetrate anatta and had some glimpses lately.

Mr ED said:

Oooh thank you my friend

I appreciate very much everything you sent me

I believe one of the things that still get in the way of my realization is the despersonalization

That i might have some

That creates confusion

But some of the things ive been perceiving was:

I noticed how sometimes i do not feel as me

But a collection of conditions

And time is kind of disappearing

One of the thoughts that have been in my head is

There is no time, only change

Change creates a false perception of time because of memory

Also, this sense of "collection of things" forming me always sounded more appropiate to define since i was studying about spirituality in my more occultist times

But realize, feel this os something more difficult

That slowly is building

Soh replied:

Do not feel as me but collection of conditions is good

But is there nondual clarity?

If there is not, it is dissociation

If there is, everything is self liberation

John Tan, 2007:

Impermanence…

Thoughts, feelings and perceptions come and go; they are not ‘me’; they are
transient in nature. Isn’t it clear that if I am aware of these passing
thoughts, feelings and perceptions, then it proves some entity is immutable and
unchanging? This is a logical conclusion rather than experiential truth. The
formless reality seems real and unchanging because of propensities
(conditioning) and the power to recall a previous experience and the experience
of ‘impersonality’ may not be able to bring sufficient clarity to the
‘impermanent and dynamic’ aspect of isness presence. The bliss and peace
experienced here, is still the bliss of formlessness.


There is also another experience, this experience does not discard or disown
the transients -- forms, thoughts, feelings and perceptions. It is the
experience that thought thinks and sound hears. Thought knows not because there
is a separate knower but because it is that which is known. It knows because
it's it. It gives rise to the insight that isness never exists in an
undifferentiated state but as transient manifestation; each moment of
manifestation is an entirely new reality, complete in its own. This brings
about the insight of non-duality but the experience of ‘impersonality need not
necessarily arise.


My experience is fusing and stabilizing these 2 experiences are necessary to
help further dissolve the ‘I’. With the dropping of the 'I' , experience
whole-heartedly and dropped the experience immediately; then nothing will
imobilize the flow.


PS: By the way, any idea what give rise to the sense of impersonality?

Session Start: Thursday, 31 May, 2007

(2:47 PM) AEN: tibetan teachings seems to often say bcos the nature of our mind is luminous defilements can be removed.. like wanderer's saying the mind is not the dust, so can be removed
(2:48 PM) AEN: even ajahn chah says "the heart is just the heart; thoughts and feelings are just thoughts and feelings. let things be just as they are! let form be just form, let sound be just sound, let thought be just thought. why should we bother to attach to them? if we think and feel in this way, then there is detachment and separateness. our thoughts and feelings will be on one side and our heart will be on the other. just like oil and water - they are in the same bottle but they are separate"
(2:49 PM) AEN: then the buddha taught,
(2:49 PM) AEN: Reply with Quote
Luminous is this mind,
Brightly shining, but it is
Colored by the attachments
That visit it.
This unlearned people do not
Really understand,
And so do not cultivate the
Mind.
(2:49 PM) AEN:
Luminous is this mind,
Brightly shining,
And it is free of the
Attachments that visit it.
This the noble follower
Of the way really understands;
So for them there is
Cultivation of the mind.

- Anguttara Nikaya
(2:52 PM) AEN: wat u tink
(6:29 PM) Thusness: think of?
(6:42 PM) AEN: something like there is stain on ur window, u know stain is not part of ur window tats y u can clean it away
(6:42 PM) Thusness: this is a wrong view in the absolute sense and not prajna wisdom.
(6:43 PM) AEN: oic so tats said in conventional sense?
(6:44 PM) Thusness: in the conventional sense, it should not be spoken that way too. The way ajahn chah puts it is no good. It becomes advaita.
(6:44 PM) Thusness: with all respect, that is not what the buddha taught. :)
(6:44 PM) AEN: oic
(6:44 PM) Thusness: i will explain to u later...i go eat first.
(6:45 PM) AEN: ok cya

(6:46 PM) Thusness: u have posted Phagguna Sutta in simpo site. What is such a teaching important?
(6:47 PM) AEN: uh bcos it concerns our nature?
(6:51 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(6:56 PM) AEN: just now i went to ABC, flipped through dalai lama's book and come across this chapter talking about mind's luminosity, then hhdl mentioned something like the window and stain and stain can be removed
(6:56 PM) AEN: then later went palelai and got 2 bks from ajahn chah, one part also mention this
(6:57 PM) AEN: like just now that part
(7:00 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(7:01 PM) AEN: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=248318&page=2 -- wanderer typed:
(7:01 PM) AEN:

(3) Know that your true nature has never ever been stained by such temporary defilements. Therefore such defilements are removable.

You have to recognize that at that moment you are angry, but you are NOT anger.

Knowing that you are NOT anger is important, because then anger is removable.
(7:01 PM) AEN:
Just like when there is a stain on your window, you know that the stain is not part of your window, that is why you will clean away the stain. If you don't believe that the stain is removable, if you thought that the stain were part of the window, then you wouldn't even attempt to clean it away.

Likewise, when your anger arises, recognize the fact that you want to and you can actually remove anger is because it was never part of your true nature. Know that the stain is clean-able. The anger and all other defilements are removable. Your original nature (often referred to as Buddha Nature, or Tathagatha-garbha, or kham) is primordially pure and unstained.
(7:02 PM) Thusness: u see this is how modern teachers teach about buddha's teaching.
(7:02 PM) Thusness: if that is the case, then who need buddha's teaching at all.
(7:02 PM) Thusness: and why the correction in the Phagguna Sutta?
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:03 PM) Thusness: what would buddha say in phagguna sutta if this was said in the phagguna sutta?
(7:03 PM) AEN: there is no 'who', but conditions arise?
(7:04 PM) Thusness: do not say that 'not me'...change it to 'no me'.
(7:04 PM) Thusness: not me implies that there is a 'me', an 'I'.
(7:04 PM) Thusness: there are few groups of practitioners.
(7:05 PM) Thusness: one has not experienced anything at all, the I is an individual 'I'.
(7:06 PM) Thusness: there are also those that experienced 'I AMness' but has not experienced infinite expansion of 'I'
(7:06 PM) Thusness: there is another group that experienced the 'I' as the infinite I.
(7:08 PM) Thusness: there are those that experienced non-duality but continue to be under the influence of propensities, unable to experience the breadth and depth of non-dual.
(7:08 PM) Thusness: there are those that are completely one in non-dual, free of propensities of 'I'.
(7:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:08 PM) Thusness: why was the Phagguna Sutta taught?
(7:09 PM) Thusness: because Buddha has realised the subtlety of imprints.
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic
(7:10 PM) Thusness: Even if one has experienced non-duality, it will not be easy for him to go beyond this 'seed' if he overlooked and continue to employ dualistic interpretation.
(7:10 PM) AEN: icic
(7:10 PM) Thusness: therefore Buddha corrected these practitioners.
(7:10 PM) Thusness: even they have experienced no-self.
(7:11 PM) Thusness: unknowingly, the re-enforced and create imprints.
(7:11 PM) AEN: icic
(7:11 PM) Thusness: Phagguna Sutta is the language of no-self and emptiness.
(7:11 PM) Thusness: not only there is no 'I', there is no 'mine'.
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic
(7:12 PM) Thusness: not that 'thoughts' has no 'I', it is has no 'mine'.
(7:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:12 PM) Thusness: this then is dharmakaya. First is non-duality, then it is the experience of dharmakaya.
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic
(7:13 PM) AEN: so dharmakaya is non duality without any propensities left?

(7:13 PM) Thusness: when we say we are not 'thoughts', we are not 'feelings', we are not 'forms'
(7:13 PM) Thusness: then does that mean that there is an 'I' that is not transient?
(7:13 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:14 PM) AEN: wat u tink about the teaching of tathagathagarbha as being 'primordially pure and unstained' or something like that
(7:14 PM) Thusness: there is a clarity that is untouched but it must be viewed in terms of emptiness.
(7:14 PM) AEN: oic
(7:15 PM) Thusness: if this tathagathagarbha nature is taught but without knowing emptiness, then it is erroneous views.
(7:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:16 PM) AEN: pure and unstained shld be understood in terms of emptiness and self-liberation?
(7:17 PM) Thusness: yeah
(7:17 PM) Thusness: but stressing that pure and unstained should not be misunderstood as there is something behind.
(7:17 PM) Thusness: it is from beginning pure and unstained.
(7:18 PM) Thusness: we never lost our clarity.
(7:18 PM) Thusness: even for a moment.
(7:18 PM) Thusness: but when I said that, I do not mean that there is a clarity behind phenomenon.
(7:18 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:19 PM) Thusness: pain is clarity, otherwise why is there pain. How is it that we feel it is so real?
(7:19 PM) Thusness: isn't it clear.
(7:19 PM) AEN: oic
(7:19 PM) Thusness: when there is momentum, there is 'self', isn't this clear?
(7:19 PM) AEN: icic
(7:20 PM) Thusness: everything is as clear as it can be, as luminous.
(7:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:21 PM) Thusness: actually u just have to see manifestation, see conditions and that is all.
(7:21 PM) Thusness: there is no need to look for buddhahood.
(7:21 PM) Thusness: naked awareness is just this.
(7:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:23 PM) AEN: no need to look for buddhahood as in
(7:23 PM) Thusness: one can experience non-duality, understand non-duality thoroughly and yet still continue to reinforce the seed of 'I' due to our conventional language.
(7:24 PM) Thusness: but when one uses language of emptiness and no-self as in the case of Phagguna Sutta, the deconstruction is every moment.
(7:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:26 PM) Thusness: then we will know that how true the dualistic language has bonded and moulded me into experiencing an 'I' and using the way of Phagguna Sutta to deconstruction the views of the world and together with the experience of non-duality, one experiences the true breadth and depth of non-duality.
(7:27 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:27 PM) AEN: oh theres one part in ajahn chah's book that he mentioned his experience of deconstruction too
(7:27 PM) AEN: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ajchah_lib/01_key.htm
(7:27 PM) AEN: search 'space'
(7:30 PM) AEN: btw ajahn chah speaks a lot on 3 dharma seals and vipassana
(7:30 PM) AEN: but somewhere he also mentions about 'that which knows'.. sounds a bit like 'i am' lol
(7:30 PM) AEN: i tink ajahn mun's lineage ppl also say tat
(7:30 PM) Thusness: yes
(7:30 PM) AEN: u also remember rite
(7:30 PM) Thusness: it becomes advaita.
(7:30 PM) AEN: oic
(7:31 PM) AEN: he said 'Thus the Buddha taught to abide as 'that which knows' [2] and simply bear witness to that which arises. Once you have trained your awareness to abide as 'that which knows', and have investigated the mind and developed insight into the truth about the mind and mental factors, you'll see the mind as anatta (not-self).
(7:31 PM) Thusness: there is nothing and no 'I' apart from manifestation.
(7:31 PM) AEN: icic
(7:31 PM) Thusness: no
(7:32 PM) Thusness: buddha taught there is only the arising and ceasing, there is nothing apart from that. Just the correct and right view.
(7:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:32 PM) Thusness: when we have the wrong view, we see things in the form of life and death.
(7:32 PM) Thusness: when we have the right view, we see the unborn, uncreated.
(7:33 PM) AEN: oic
(7:33 PM) Thusness: ever manifesting.
(7:33 PM) Thusness: buddha taught there is only the arising and ceasing, there is nothing apart from that. Just whether the view is correct or wrong view.
(7:34 PM) AEN: back
(7:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:34 PM) Thusness: when one is able to experience our nature as it is, the bliss experienced is different.
(7:35 PM) AEN: oic
(7:35 PM) Thusness: The experience and bliss of an eternal witness observing the transient and the full experience of just the transient is different.
(7:36 PM) Thusness: the bliss and clarity of no-self is of a different dimension.
(7:37 PM) AEN: icic
(7:37 PM) Thusness: u must understand that buddhism does not deny clarity, luminosity.
(7:37 PM) Thusness: but we must realise what clarity is.
(7:37 PM) AEN: oic
(7:37 PM) AEN: btw u read ajahn chah's bk b4? how u find them
(7:37 PM) Thusness: yes i have read it b4. :)

(7:38 PM) Thusness: i find that ajahn chah is proned towards "I AMness".
(7:38 PM) Thusness: that is the trace of self is still there.
(7:38 PM) Thusness: I do not know, since he is already (being claimed to be) an arhat. :P
(7:39 PM) Thusness: i prefer u to read dharma dan...lol
(7:39 PM) AEN: oic he did state tat?
(7:39 PM) AEN: as in he's arhat
(7:39 PM) AEN: i heard about it also
(7:39 PM) AEN: icic
(7:39 PM) Thusness: i do not know...
(7:40 PM) AEN: i heard from e-sangha dunnu isit the same monk that criticised ajahn maha boowa... that ajahn mun and its lineage ppl, ajahn chah, ajahn maha boowa etc lean towards eternalism... then the other lineage like ajahn buddhadhasa lean towards nihilism or something like that
(7:40 PM) AEN: oic but how u know he's arhat
(7:40 PM) Thusness: i mean ppl say, not i know.
(7:40 PM) AEN: icic
(7:41 PM) Thusness: the teaching of buddha's is very profound and subtle.
(7:41 PM) Thusness: we need to practice hard to validate what that is taught.
(7:41 PM) AEN: oic
(7:42 PM) Thusness: otherwise mostly we will misinterpret.
(7:42 PM) Thusness: most likely
(7:42 PM) Thusness: ehehehe
(7:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:43 PM) Thusness: a person must be able to experience the dissolution of the self to a great extent before the teaching of buddha can be fully appreciated.
(7:43 PM) Thusness: that is even after he/she has experienced non-duality.
(7:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:46 PM) Thusness: but try not to comment on ajahn chah.
(7:46 PM) AEN: yea
(7:46 PM) Thusness: i do not want u to have another issue like lao tze.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: :)
(7:46 PM) AEN: hahaha
(7:46 PM) AEN: oh ya is tmr lol
(7:49 PM) Thusness: yes...lol
(7:50 PM) AEN: btw ajahn brahm under ajahn chah u know?
(7:52 PM) Thusness: yeah
(7:52 PM) Thusness: heard of.
(7:52 PM) Thusness: why?
(7:53 PM) AEN: nothing much.. lol
(7:54 PM) Thusness: but u know wat i meant right?
(7:54 PM) AEN: yea
(7:55 PM) Thusness: however it is okie to experience the "I AMness" first. :)
(7:56 PM) Thusness: with the teaching and the experience of your teacher as guidance, moving into non-duality and the experience of dharmakaya.
(7:56 PM) AEN: icic..

Session Start: Thursday, 31 May, 2007

(8:29 PM) Thusness: just meditated for 15 mins...ahaha
(8:29 PM) AEN: lol
(8:29 PM) AEN: icic
(8:29 PM) AEN: so how was it
(8:29 PM) Thusness: forgot to tell u the part on "even ajahn chah says "the heart is just the heart; thoughts and feelings are just thoughts and feelings. let things be just as they are! let form be just form, let sound be just sound, let thought be just thought. why should we bother to attach to them? if we think and feel in this way, then there is detachment and separateness.
(8:30 PM) AEN: icic
(8:30 PM) AEN: so wat u wanted to say
(8:31 PM) Thusness: is very important.
(8:31 PM) Thusness: that is the experience of the 2nd door.
(8:31 PM) Thusness: our thoughts and feelings will be on one side and our heart will be on the other. just like oil and water - they are in the same bottle but they are separate"
(8:31 PM) Thusness: this part is advaita.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: so there is the 2nd door without the clarity of non-dual.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: but the first part is very important in terms of experience.
(8:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:33 PM) Thusness: some is non-duality without second door.
(8:33 PM) Thusness: but each door is to deal with a particular aspect of 'self'
(8:33 PM) AEN: icic
(8:33 PM) AEN: longchen now knows second door rite
(8:33 PM) Thusness: yeah
(8:34 PM) AEN: icic
(8:34 PM) Thusness: but the depth of the experience, dunno.
(8:34 PM) Thusness: eheheh
(8:34 PM) AEN: oic
(8:34 PM) AEN: how come second door will lead to 'things as they are'
(8:35 PM) Thusness: did u read what i said in the post to amadeus?
(8:35 PM) Thusness: on the immense clarity of isness?
(8:36 PM) AEN: tink so
(8:36 PM) AEN: cant remember now
(8:36 PM) Thusness: Isness is not just letting the passing away and not adding and subtracting to the moment.
(8:36 PM) AEN: oic
(8:37 PM) Thusness: it is the immense clarity, aliveness and vividness of the moment.
(8:37 PM) Thusness: the former is the passing away without clarity.
(8:37 PM) Thusness: the later is the clarity those not to the level of non-duality
(8:38 PM) Thusness: these 2 aspects must fuse into one to arise the realisation of self-liberation.
(8:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:38 PM) AEN: so the third is immense clarity of passing away
(8:39 PM) Thusness: did u c what i wrote to amadeus?
(8:39 PM) Thusness: on the post "when truth takes over"
(8:39 PM) Thusness: i said still with all the vividness, it is gone.
(8:39 PM) Thusness: but who can understand...ehhehee
(8:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:39 PM) Thusness: maybe watchit...lol
(8:40 PM) AEN: watch it understands 2nd door and clarity?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: not exactly, the experience is there.

“Collection of things” is very important. When directly realized then apply it to all phenomena.. then that is twofold emptiness

Have you watched this before:

https://youtu.be/Q80MfH7xPPE

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/09/phagguna-sutta-to-phagguna_22.html

The dissolution of both personal self and ultimate Self is not to be feared

It only becomes problematic if only gone halfway. Then it becomes dissociation

Then with that you will experience dark nights

Have you seen this article:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/dark-night.html

Thusness:


25 Jan `07, 2:47PM
(commenting on some of Suzanne Segal's descriptions) If someone draws a line in the thin air and is able to plant a seed into a lay person’s inmost consciousness that “he can’t go beyond this line”, that lay person will feel that the so called ‘imaginary’ boundary is as solid as a physical wall. The way we are ‘bonded’ to dualistic view of a ‘Self’ is similar. A strong sense of Witnessing Presence without going beyond that "invisible line" is not the experience of “no-self” in Buddhism and therefore I would not call her experience an “insight” into no-self. The negative experiences she had seem more like very strong ‘self/Self’ propensities, it is a form of split, a separation.

Staying in no-self is to be fully authenticated by all things and as all things. Fear arises because of this lack of authentication. She sank too deeply into the 'content'. This is the case of "dark nights" where propensities rushed into manifestations. Her attempt to reason herself out will not work. Logical reasoning cannot break that 'bond' and she just couldn't help reacting to it.
One way out is to practice and develop the mental habit of "dissolving" every moment before "content" arise. The mental habit of dissolving will become a strength of it own to counter this problem.

In true no-self experience, the first aspect is the cognitive mind loses its charm and is replaced with intuitive and direct experience. Only the qualities of our nature are experienced (clarity, radiance, presence and vitality), nothing about symbols, labels and content. Second, the illusionary view of a "Self' on top of manifestation is dissolved; There is complete rest in appearance. Nothing needs be done and therefore there can only be the experience of liberation as that boundary, that separation disappeared. Nothing is obstructing anything in the experience of no-self.

Edited by Thusness 25 Jan `07, 11:57PM

When all self/Self is gone, there is no dissociation, no fear and other dark night problems. There is liberation, intensity of luminosity, aliveness, bliss, nondual, boundless release

Even if you want to call it depersonalized it is ok. But it is not a deluded, suffering state.

Actual freedom richard said:

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/attentivenesssensuousnessapperceptiveness.htm


Apperceptiveness has its own distinct ambience in consciousness: it has a flavour – a magical, crystal-clear, scintillating flavour – whereas feelings are heady, magisterial and grandiloquent by comparison ... finicky and phantasmal and flighty and fantastical. Yet these are but descriptive words and one’s own action will show one the difference ... then one will probably come up with one’s own words and the words used here will become superfluous. Action is the thing as apperception is a living actuality that adds nothing to perception nor subtracts anything – it distorts not at all – and sees things as they actually are. One can apperceive prime characteristics that actual freedom factually shows. In psychiatric terms, for example, these are called:
1. ‘depersonalisation’ (selflessness ... the absence of an entity that is called ego and Soul or self and Self).
2. ‘alexithymia’ (the absence of the affective faculty ... no emotions, passions or calentures whatsoever).
3. ‘derealisation’ (the condition of having lost one’s grip on reality ... the ‘real world’ is nowhere to be found).
4. ‘anhedonia’ (the inability to affectively feel pleasure/pain ... no hormonal secretions means hedonism is not possible).

But the absence of affective does not mean inability to have compassion or care for others or love someone else.

In my experience

Kyle dixon: "...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013

“level 1
krodha
· 2d
I suppose my question is manifold. If emotion isn't part of the mind's nature, do positive emotions such as joy and happiness need to be abandoned along with the kleshas if one wants to achieve a pure mind?
If you practice effectively and begin to have instances of awakened, nonconceptual equipoise of a yogic direct perception of emptiness, then you will encounter what is called prajñā, which is the transcendent and ecstatic knowledge of emptiness that occurs while in awakened equipoise. Prajñā is forceful and bright and actually involuntarily “burns” away kelśas just by virtue of its nature. As such, if you cultivate awakened equipoise, then each time you establish a samādhi infused with prajñā, more and more kleśas will be exhausted, and with them, the seeds for afflictive states of mind and negative emotions.
You will still be able to have positive emotions, but overall you will actually end up establishing a state of equanimity where you will be pretty even all the time, content and undisturbed.
With that your compassion will naturally increase, because compassion is actually an innate property of the nature of mind.
The prajñā or “wisdom” of suchness/emptiness that knows the actual nature of phenomena, manifests once the knowledge obscuration that misconceives of an inherent identity or "self" in phenomena is exhausted as a result of authentic awakening. The direct realization of an absence of self in persons and phenomena is then the basis of compassion, as noted in the Sangs rgyas gsang ba'i lam rim:
Being empty, it is always devoid of attributes, and free from the clinging to the notion of self. Therefore, the suchness upon seeing this forms the basis for the arising of compassion.
Padampa Sangye concurs:
When you realize emptiness, it would be absurd to do anything negative. When you realize emptiness, compassion arises with it simultaneously.
5
4
krodha
· 1d
So you’re saying that compassion IS part of mind’s pure nature and is not a coloring “hue” like emotions might be, according to the Dalai Lama’s framework, correct?
Yes, compassion is considered to be an innate aspect of the nature of mind, and altruistic in that the aspect of karuna or compassion actually works for the benefit of other beings by virtue of its very nature. In some teachings it says that this compassion selflessly performs virtuous and altruistic deeds on behalf of beings.
Is the idea that the pure nature of the mind is inherently virtuous/beneficial?
Yes. We are kind and compassionate by nature. The less compassionate amongst us just have a bit more dust on their mirrors, so to speak.
From Ācārya Malcolm:
In Dzogchen, there is little need to 'cultivate' compassion since compassion is recognized a) to be innate b) will be expanded up by recognizing your own state.
...We all have compassion. So the way to increase it is to simply see that we have it, and exercise that muscle a bit more.
Then, when we recognize our true condition, our compassion will burst out like the sun behind a cloud.
2” – Krodha (Kyle Dixon) - https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/p15r8z/question_on_emotions_and_the_pure_nature_of_the/

Today

Hello my friend

Do not feel as me but collection of conditions is good

But is there nondual clarity?

If there is not, it is dissociation

If there is, everything is self liberation

------------

Mr Ed wrote:

I don't know... it's probably dissociation

Because it doesnt feel like an awakening, sometimes it even brings an uneasy feeling

Uneasy not even in the way of expecting something new and being anxious, but weird

So it's probably just my dissociation

Also, i've seen you sent me many things, thank you my friend, i will read them as soon as possible

Had a really good day today, i've seen some long term friends i didn't see in many time, and they were really heartwarming in welcoming me back

Very kind with words and reception, made me feel realy cherished

Soh replied:

:) have to experience the luminous clarity as manifestation with vividness and without background.. then with two stanzas you can breakthrough and realize


Session Start: Mon Jan 03 20:15:44 2005
Session Ident: ^john^
[20:18] <ZeN`hw> hello John... have u heard about drugs like LSD which can cause ppl to feel "united with the universe", and realise that we are all "one organism"?
[20:18] <ZeN`hw> 122. The sixth type of psychedelic experience has been called by such names as psychedelic-peak, cosmic, transcendental, or mystical. Some of the psychological phenomena which are said to characterize this experience, are: a sense of unity or 'cosmic oneness' with the universe; a feeling of transcendence of time and space; a deeply felt positive mood of joy, blessedness, love, and peace; a sense of sacredness, awe and, wonder; a feeling of profound theological or religious awareness; a feeling of insight into reality at an intuitive, nonrational level; an awareness of things which seem logically contradictory and paradoxical; and a belief that the experience is beyond words, non-verbal and impossible to describe. The full peak experience, in its entirety, does not occur in the majority of individuals, is usually transient, and does not last for long in its full intensity, although it may have persisting effects on attitudes an
[20:18] <ZeN`hw> http://www.near-death.com/experiences/lsd01.html
[22:01] <^john^> yes. :)
[22:02] <^john^> But it is far from what it is being described.
[22:02] <^john^> I have told Sangha about OBE too when he told me his friend is able to see his own body during meditation.
[22:05] <^john^> In fact Baba Ram Dass (not exactly sure whether is it him) used to be a Harvard Lecturer in psychology. He experimented using LSD to induce mystical experience.
[22:06] <^john^> He was dismissed because of that. :)
[22:19] <ZeN`n1th> oh.. icic
[22:19] <^john^> Zennith, the experience of Thusness is not what that is described by them.
[22:20] <^john^> It is nothing close if u believe me.
[22:20] <^john^> how is one able to understand. :)
[22:21] <^john^> I just written something today.
[22:21] <ZeN`n1th> icic
[22:21] <ZeN`n1th> har?
[22:21] <ZeN`n1th> written wat
[22:21] <^john^> my meditation. :P
[22:22] <ZeN`n1th> oh icic.. wat is it about?
[22:22] <^john^> 03.01.2005
[22:22] <^john^> How could anyone understand?
[22:22] <^john^> The crying, the sound, the noise is buddha.
[22:22] <^john^> It is all the experience of Thusness.
[22:22] <^john^> To know the true meaning of this
[22:22] <^john^> Hold not even the slightest trace of 'I'.
[22:22] <^john^> In the most natural state of ILessNess,
[22:22] <^john^> All Is.
[22:22] <^john^> Even if one said the same statement,
[22:22] <^john^> the depth of experience differs.
[22:22] <^john^> The is no point convincing anyone.
[22:22] <^john^> Can anyone understand?
[22:22] <^john^> Any form of rejection
[22:22] <^john^> Any sort of division
[22:22] <^john^> Is to reject buddhahood.
[22:22] <^john^> If there is a slightest sense of a subject, an experiencer
[22:22] <^john^> we miss the point.
[22:22] <^john^> Natural Awareness is subjectless
[22:22] <^john^> The vividness and clarity
[22:22] <^john^> Feel, taste, see and hear with totality
[22:22] <^john^> There is always no 'I'.
[22:22] <^john^> Thank you Buddha, You truly know.
[22:23] <^john^> :)
[22:23] <^john^> It is difficult to understand the subtlety.
[22:23] <ZeN`n1th> icic... v nice
[22:25] <^john^> 02/1/2005
[22:25] <^john^> Without 'self' oneness is immediately attained.
[22:25] <^john^> There is only and always this Isness. Subject has always been the Object of observation.
[22:25] <^john^> This is true samadhi without entering trance.
[22:25] <^john^> Completely understanding this truth. It is the true way towards liberation.
[22:25] <^john^> Every sound, sensation, arising of consciousness is so clear, real and vivid.
[22:25] <^john^> Every moment is samadhi.
[22:25] <^john^> The tip of the fingers in contact with the keyboard, mysteriously created the
[22:25] <^john^> contact consciousness, what is it? Feel the entirety of beingness and realness.
[22:25] <^john^> There is no subject...just Isness.
[22:25] <^john^> No thought, there really is no thought and no 'self'. Only Pure Awareness.
[22:25] <^john^> :)
[22:26] <^john^> Zennith, it is meaningless to tok about anything. Just practice hard.
[22:27] <ZeN`n1th> icic...
[22:27] <^john^> The depth of emptiness cannot be measured.
[22:27] <ZeN`n1th> ok
Session Close: Mon Jan 03 23:30:08 2005

Soh: when luminosity in foreground is experienced, the world literally comes alive and is radiant and intense, but without self/Self