John Tan:
That time I wrote 2 article on two-fold emptiness, u have the 2 articles I wrote? I think u post on dharma overground.
Soh:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/04/daniel-post-on-anattaemptiness.html
Daniel M. Ingram wrote in http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4179363
It is interesting that in another thread the was the assertion that MCTB whatever was about the first meaning of emptiness, rather than what your quote defines as both.
Just to be clear:
When I mean empty, I also mean without boundary, without inside and outside
I also mean the direct immediate experience in its unprocessed or raw form. I also mean the total dissolution of the sense of a perceiver.
I also mean no active agent.
I also mean that nothing is stable, including space and time.
I also mean that all is bare, shifting, empty sensate experience, causal, happening according to the basic laws of the universe, naturally, on its own.
I also would say that there is no boundary or differentiation between the sense doors at they occur, nor between body and mind, nor between manifestation and awareness, nor between this and that, beyond those ordinarily used for communication and discriminating function, but these are not the essential nature of experience, just part of it as sensations when they occur.
Nor can one find any here that is stable, nor a now that is stable, nor a knower, nor an investigator, nor any practitioner, nor any attainer.
When I talk of an integrated transient, natural, causal, luminous experience field, this sounds to me exactly like your "All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity."
I see no obvious difference either in theory or in actual practice.
Thoughts?
Thusness's comments to AEN:
Hi AEN,
Those were just some very casual sharing written on the spur of a moment, they were not well thought. Emptiness to me has another dimension if you wish to look into it.
When there is not even a single trace of Self/self nor is there any sense of inner/outer division, experiencer and what experienced collapsed...
At this moment there is just this vivid beautiful scenery, this bright brilliant world…all self arises
At this point…
Close your eyes....
Voidness....
Relax and rest in this all-consuming awaring void, this clear non-dual Awareness standing alone as itself and of itself…
Then shift the focus to the breath…
Just the sensations of the breath…
Then the transparent dancing sensations…absolutely no mind, no body, no experiencer/experienced, no inner/outer division… borderless and boundless
Every moment is great and miraculous…
This must become natural to you first.
Then at this moment of appreciating maha suchness of the breath, the sensations, the entire scenery, the entire world…
Understand that they are Empty!
Experience the magnificence then deeply understand that they are empty but this Emptiness has nothing to do with deconstruction nor reification nor do I mean they are simply impermanent. So what is this Emptiness I am referring to?
..............
On another occasion Thusness wrote:
Intelligent Knowingness as permanent… continuous… so many projections into time… so involved in mind conceptualities… Deconstruct seer, what happens is just this spontaneously manifested scenery
Deconstruct body further, you have mind-body drop
Deconstruct time, there will only be this clear vivid presence of immediacy
After arising insight of anatta, there is only “directness” and simplicity... go beyond conventions and conceptuality and recognize this immediate radiance is exactly what is appearing in this instantaneous moment...
If you are in need of a view for practice, then embrace the general principle of Dependent Origination that doesn’t entertain who-when-where construct, it will help sever dualistic and inherent propensities. Otherwise you will have to go back to the koan I asked you when I first met you in IRC… this moment ceases as it arises, is this moment arising or ceasing? If you are clear, then further penetrate this total exertion of immediacy and realize that though there is vivid appearances, there is nothing here… nothing now… you will never find it!
....
Also:
In ignorance, there is hearer hearing sound.
In anatta, in hearing, only sound.
Yet sound has no true inherent nature (empty),
It is an activity and is that very activity called “hearing”.
Both “hearing and sound” are pointing to the same activity.
Only when seen to have true existence on either side does confusion arise.
In Madhyamaka Emptiness, reification is seen through.
Yet the experiential state of freedom from reification is not expounded.
However one can have a taste of that freedom from arising insight of anatta since anatta is precisely the freedom from reification of Self/self (First fold Emptiness).
In anatta, seeing is simply the full scenery, in hearing only sound…
thus, always only lights, shape, colors, sounds, scents… in clean purity.
Emptying the object further (second fold) is merely dissolving subtle bond of “externality” that creates the appearance of true existence of objects outside. When “externality” is deconstructed, it is effectively a double confirmation of anatta…
…innerly coreless and outwardly empty, all appearances are still simply sound, lights, colors and rays
In thorough deconstruction, as there is no layer that reifies, there is no conceptuality. Therefore no complication, no confusion, no stains, no boundaries, no center, no sense of dual..
no sense of activity…just self arising.
All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity.
Whatever appears is
neither here nor now,
Neither in nor out,
Neither arises nor ceases,
In the same space…
non-local, timeless and dimensionless
Simply present…
To Jax:
The place where there is no earth, fire, wind, space, water…
is the place where the earth, fire, wind, space and water kills “You” and fully shines as its own radiance, a complete taste of itself and fully itself.
Lastly, it is interesting to get know something about Dzogchen however the jargons and tenets are far beyond me.
Just wrote due to a sudden spurt of interest, nothing intense.
Thanks for all the sharing and exchanges.
Gone!
These?
[2:37 PM, 8/5/2022] John Tan: Yes, I think should add together as they represent the 2 different view of emptiness.
[2:38 PM, 8/5/2022] John Tan: Freedom from all elaborations and freedom from self-nature.
[2:46 PM, 8/5/2022] John Tan: Ok I edited
Soh: Yeah i was thinking that way about those two recently also 😂
Those two articles
[3:15 PM, 8/5/2022] John Tan: Yeah I included the two. One is freedom from all elaboration, one is spacious dream-like nature, lack of self-nature as emptiness.
[3:16 PM, 8/5/2022] John Tan: If not difficult to search
Yin LingWhich part is which?
I still cannot diffferentiate
Soh Wei YuYin Ling the part with deconstruction into nonconceptual leads to freedom from elaboration
The other part where it says empty but not deconstruction refers to the empty nature of presence free from self nature
John TanSoh Wei Yu
yes. Actually imo, Mipham's presentation of freedom from all
elaborations is "coalescence", it is just and exactly the actualisation
of the non-conceptual insight of freedom from self-nature and it must be
understood that way, not just
"non-conceptualities".
Focusing on eliminating conceptualities can be/is extremely
misleading. However the analytical path will delayed the direct taste
of vivid appearances but in terms of de-construction, contemplating
freedom from self-nature is far deeper and much more helpful imo in
freeing and uprooting mind's blindspots.
Yin Ling“Just to be clear… until .. thoughts” —> freedom from elaborations
“Hi aen.. till.. what is this emptiness I am referring to?” Freedom of self-nature
“Intelligent knowingness.. till .. you will never find it” Is freedom from elaboration
Then the rest is freedom of self-nature?”?
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