Transcript of AtR (Awakening to Reality) Meeting, March 2021

A conversation with John Tan some time in 2012 or 2013:

John: Kyle message me. He said does this sound like only (?ing) to conventions are non-arising? I have to write in the blog... about this part. Because (?) but this Piotr (?) all these trying to deconstruct at the mind level. There is the mind level and there is the non-conceptual level. (?) So you can deconstruct endlessly, object, now, here, subject, (?) at the mind level... (?) constructs. So you can continue to deconstruct label, etc at the mind level it will produce a kind of release, non-holding, but you do not touch non-arising itself as a taste.

In order to understand phase 7, you must apply phase 6. You see, phase 6 is always step by step if you look at my phases of insights. So if you look at phase 6, you must bring this entire understanding of emptiness and non-arising onto the Presence itself. I said it is the very presence that is empty. Then only when you do that, when you look behind there is nothing, you look at the background there is nothing, you look at the foreground it is empty and non-arising. Then you can talk about self-liberation. Right? Otherwise how can you talk about self-liberation? Self or releasing I call it.. natural.. means it is a non-dual releasing. How are you going to talk about that if you do not go through behind foreground behind background and then in front the foreground. Feel yourself. Means you must truly understand that. Then it naturally (?) are not able able to feel that, then you are just doing a dissociation. 

So if you were to go through phases by phases the insights... I think anatta you are quite clear. Then you go into phase six of insight. You must apply this understanding, this principle of emptiness on intellectual level, because once you see anatta you are experiencing the first taste of emptiness of self in direct experience. You must see the conceptual principle of emptiness then you apply it, it is the same insight, to the Presence itself. So what I wrote about the phase six insight, it's applying to the very Presence itself.

It is also good that you go through ongoing deconstruction at the mind level instead of directly cutting through (?) to the non-conceptual level. But first you go to the mind level, means mind as an intellectual thinking, deconstructing... oh, now there is this physicality, this externality, this subject, this object as a construct. Then, at this level there is a releasing, but it is at an intellectual/mind level. But when you touch the other level, the non-conceptual level, you must bring this taste itself and taste it as your own state. This time you must taste non-arising and emptiness. So this part you must be very very clear. When you talk about non-arising, what does that mean? When you talk about emptiness, what does it mean? When we look at self, self is just... if you look at the anatta experience, there is no self, so suddenly experience becomes vivid, clear, and then releasing. But very few people can straight away become non-referencing... everything just release.

So at the first level, you see self itself is a mere construct just like weather, weatherness. It is just a construct. There is only seeing, hearing, sight, thoughts and all these... and sensations. So you're feeling directly all these, means you do not have background and conceptuality. And it is gapless and direct. But you look at the principle itself that I kept asking you many times... is anatta the same as emptiness of self? So what is lacking? This means in addition to that, you see the principle of the essence of what this thing is pointing intellectually first. Correct? So there is another extra level. Means, the intellectual aspect of it. What does it mean? Means, this construct we're treating it as real. But in essence it is non-arising. Means you cannot say it arise, abide and ceases. It is a construct, never there before. So you're level with what we call sound, you're left with thoughts, you're left with all these.

When you have the experience that I wrote, your experience so clear, so clear... you are becoming a field of clear awareness like non-dual awareness but it is due to the anatta experience. You are not holding to a reference point of mind. When you look at this, sound itself, when sound kills you in the state of no heat and cold, just sound – you hear this sound. Sound is like what? It's empty. Then you look at thoughts, thought is what? Like what? Where is thought? It's empty. You're looking at directly at thoughts, because now you're in anatta. You're looking at thoughts. Then we apply non-arising, it does not arise at all although it appears to arise. So we must taste this... and straightaway, we must, Ah! Oh! It's This! Unborn! Just like what? Just like rainbow! They appear! They appear so clearly! But it's not there. So you don't have to deconstruct, deconstruct that.

You see that it's non-arising. Now, there are a few things... the experience that must come. Because you see that thoughts, they appear, but they are empty and non-arising. But you must understand another thing. There is the experience, and there is the insight. What is the insight about?

The insight that is triggered is that it is unborn. It is non-arising. There is a taste, there is an experience, but there is an insight, that you cannot destroy it. You see? The insight is unborn, indestructible, the very idea of birth and death just suddenly doesn't apply. Not because A doesn't change to B and B doesn't change to A.

Suddenly it becomes very clear to you that destruction, cessation, abiding, and arising and ceasing, or destruction of all these doesn't apply at all! You realize suddenly that all these things doesn't apply in the very taste of it. It is a realization. But it is not an experience. An experience is an experience. Just like I AM is a realization, but it is not an experience. You realize suddenly then you keep on tasting it in every moment of experience. So you must know what is the insight, what is the experience. So I kept asking you, what is it that you realize? You suddenly realize that you are not describing to me that it is being an illusion or what, but the insight that it is empty and non-arising. You get what I mean? Then you know that all these things that you hear... (?) you hear sound right? The sound doesn't exist anywhere!

You understand, oh yes.. I understand... then clearly there is some sound that is produced, all sort of things, correct? You think there is a production but it is non-arising. By understanding this, you are not understanding substantialist kind of unborn, and non-arising nature. You are understanding reflection itself as empty and non-arising. It's different. Now you are not making it into a substantial point of view. You are not looking into that at all. You are looking into this clear experience, this arising does not arise, does not truly arise. Means you taste it yourself, you taste the experience and there is a realization and insight to it deep in you.

Some people say it is non-arising... there are people that... this arise, thought arise, this entire scenery is non-arising. It's different. There is the vivid clear experience that's non-arising. Now, this, you and me.. totally different. Where is it? Then not only the background is gone, the foreground is gone. Then you talk about how to release naturally. When you go through you will understand what I mean, right?

So when we talk about non-arising we are saying that this thing does not arise although it appears. Just like a rainbow. Just like a mirage. So we are saying in a non-dual, non-conceptual mode of experience, this arising experience – sound, very very clear, it does not arise. Means you have that taste then you do not need to deconstruct already. It is deep inside you, there is no more deconstruction. Can you see the difference what I mean, the experience and the insight they will come into one.

You can say it is illusionary, but you must see that it is non-arising, empty and non-arising. That is different. Let's say for example, Jax emphasize on this is eternal, this is changeless, he is trying to say that this eternal stuff that cannot be destroyed. But his entire thing when it becomes what we call reflection, the experience of the reflection, it is seen in this way. You get what I mean? It is not the experience that say it is not graspable... it is different way of seeing it.

You must understand that it never arise at all. It does not truly arise although it appears. It's different. You're not saying it is not graspable, but from there you realize the nature of it.

Then there is another thing that is about... Jackson said in the seeing just the seen, but he's saying there is another dimension to it. He's not trying to bring out the point of an Absolute. But it's very difficult to write. What he's trying to tell you is that this experience is very alive, real and something... very much alive. Because you can see from the perspective of what I call dull shamatha kind of experience. In the seen just the seen. But instead of just sound, because you realize it, it is wonderful... something very very alive. The spark of wonder. It is not something that is dull, like a samadhi experience. There is a lot of difference. So there is a quality that is like that in that experience. 

(Soh: see )

Seeing Mahākāśyapa's smile the Buddha said,
I possess the Treasury of the Correct Dharma Eye , the wonderful heart-mind of Nirvana, the formless true form, the subtle Dharma gate, not established by written words, transmitted separately outside the teaching. I hand it over and entrust these encouraging words to Kashyapa.

He is referring to something very vibrant and alive. That you must directly cut through. Means it is an instant illumination, Realization, all the discursive thoughts and everything just ceases in that moment of illumination. But realization can realize many things. For example I want to teach you wu qing, they only teach you very minimum music, they do not teach you a lot of concepts... lets say you are of very high calibre, very high capacity, it is not something intellectual. They want you to feel with your entire being... that sound, tingggg... then (?) play the music, then you feel it, means you are able to feel with your entire body-mind, feel with your entire being. It is not something that is intellectual. So a person of high capacity is when the teacher find that he has this capacity to  feel and understand directly, heart to heart, a cut through of all intellectual verbalization and understand directly. This is what we call a person of high capacity.

So that when we talk about non-dual it is not at a conceptual level, he can feel with his entire being this is non-dual, this is clarity, this is impermanence, this is non-arising. So a person of high capacity is like that. Otherwise, you go through step by step, that is like... sudden awakening. Gradual practice and sudden awakening. 

    Not relying on words or letters.
    An independent transmission outside the teaching of the scriptures.
    Directly pointing to man's Mind.
    Awakening of one's (Original-) Nature, thereby actualizing one's own Buddhahood.

But this is not pointing out man's Mind. This is just.. first of all we have to understand Realization. Realization is something that is like that. That's why I said the eye of immediacy. The eye that feel sound as sound and understand it. This means you feel with your entire being, feel with your entire body-mind. Once the teacher understand and see that this student has the capacity to do this, then he redirect this entire wisdom eye, or the eye that is open back to itself to understand clarity. So when he communicates, it is not about intellectual level, he wants the whole of the essence raw, he hands it to you. He does not want to explain and explain, certain things cannot be explained. When you explain you are actually contaminating it. I am teaching you so much but it is all words. But can you taste it or not? So I cannot explain to you so much. Like keep asking you Phase 7 is what? Phase 6 is what? Phase 5 is what? Phase...

As a good teacher... That's why I said, this is raw, this is not written anywhere, you have to taste it yourself, first hand, not second hand. Then you understand. Then your entire body mind must be open, your whole being must be opened, you feel it... this aliveness. You understand? It's something that is spirit, something that is alive, it is not dead, it is not a piece of dead rock.

Jax is trying to point this out. But he's always trying to make it an Absolute, reifying it. But it is not wrong to talk about that. Because... in fact if you look at all the conversations, it is very dead you know... no aliveness. There is no vibrancy, there is no this... that tells you the essence, you are like that, this aliveness, this suchness. It is very dead. Empty... empty... this, this, this... empty! There's not aliveness, just words.

He's trying to tell you, you cut through everything and see!!! Where is that? Where is that transmission? Pointing at you! Woah!! You're alive! You become alive! This is how (?) this is alive! He's trying to tell you that. This is the spark of creativity. This is the what that has been transmitted. And then you go through the seven phases of insight... must (?) this essence. It is not something that is dead. But do not reify it. Do not leave trace. It is this, this Absolute... Don't leave trace. But that is the essence. It is not something that is dead... Samadhi, samadhi, samadhi... No!! This is something that is very dead. No life, no death, no what... these are concepts!

This is what he's saying. Eh, you like that Byakuren's article on no death no life, he say it's pure intellectual, it's nonsense. It said she suddenly understood no death, no life... He say understand what? It's all intellectual. These are all texts and theories and concepts... where is the essence that is beyond that has no life and death? He's trying to tell you this. Cutting through everything, touch the thing. You touch it but you are still within that, you talk too much about the mind level. But he wants to talk about that level, the essence, but of course I tell him that you're leaving traces. 

I directly point to you, transmission. Teaching is teaching, transmission is transmission. You cannot bullshit about transmission. So I do not like Malcolm talking about that. He said for transmission you need a teacher for introduction, because otherwise people cannot understand or whatever... you need to get more people... this is not about getting more people. This is about the essence of the transmission. I possess the Treasury of the Correct Dharma Eye , the wonderful heart-mind of Nirvana, the formless true form, the subtle Dharma gate

When I pass it to you, you must immediately... whole body burst, it must boil your blood, penetrate deep into your bone marrow and suddenly your whole body-mind is one living spirit. But you must go through these seven phases of insights. But it cannot be something dead. How can it be something very very dead? You must feel your blood boil, you must experience oh... Anatta... it's this expression, as this, so vibrant and so wonderful, miracle.

It is not some samadhi – in the seen, just the seen... it is not a samadhi state. It is a cutting through, the spark of illumination, instant illumination. That always you face life with this vibrancy and yet there is no reference point at any time.

(switch file)

...dependent origination. Then you see the second (?) means you do not reify this aliveness. It is just (?) feel the vibrance, you are not a machine. You are not a machine. In the seen is just the seen (haha) it's not like that. There is nothing behind, everything is just this. There is just sound, just what, but it is full of life and vibrancy. So it is  I possess the Treasury of the Correct Dharma Eye, 
    Not relying on words or letters.

Pointing at you only. Then suddenly you entire being is full of life. It is this that there is compassion, that there is full emotion. If it is not something alive like this where does emotion come? When you are purged of all these and see the purity and clarity of these then you are released. Otherwise it is just an emotion, it is something very painful... I didn't get my job, I do so long and didn't get it, you get what I mean?

So when you do that then you go through the seven phases of insights. In fact in the first phase of insight you must have that kind of thing already... but your phases is too fast and you always want to jump always thinking of stages, therefore it is not there. But I have to tell you that it is the most important one. That is why I emphasized on Jax. One thing is when he left, first time. The blog post. He emphasized. Actually I didn't want to write, I want you all to interact and open up yourself to interact and open up yourselves through interaction. But (?) his message is important. So what I wrote the first time, it is the same message. You go and re-read it again.

You go read what I said. It is full of life. So I wrote it, yet still the same. (?) argue and argue. Then the second time when he was saying about Mahamudra and Malcolm talked about some other things then I see (?) probably I'll just write something. But I have to confirm his stance is right. It is not about the Absolute. It is not talking about that. But I am talking about the directly you point to, that time, it must cut through all intellectual level, a direct illumination, something wonderful and miraculous. It must have that kind of thing. Otherwise it is not worth seeking, correct? Training you to be a machine.

Only when you truly understand... then, for example, Teacher Chen can pass the lineage to you. Otherwise it is intellectual level. Therefore, poetry and writing, you must write into life. I am not very good in Chinese that I write for you. It must... Tngggg... everybody awakens. Communication is always about that. So I do not want to explain to you too much. But you must feel it. You must feel with your entire being. That thing must open, just open and you feel it you see.

You can only point out that he is leaving traces and he is subsuming subject into object, object into what... but you cannot fault him on this part, that the direct cutting through of everything. Without that, it is not true realization. 

It's not a samadhi state, but there is mini samadhi absorptions. It is not samadhi, it is not something that is dead, it is not concentration. You understand?

So go back and read whatever you wrote and your conversation with Jax, does it feel dead and lifeless?

Me: So how did you contemplate non-arising that you said?

John: After anatta the self disappears. When you use the term unborn, unborn nature of phenomena, what is it? So you contemplate, in Lankavatara Sutra it says as well. But those are very substantial view. The text, the translation, the translation makes it sound very substantialist. So it's very difficult to understand. When you look at Nagarjuna, Madhyamaka, then it is an endless deconstruction of objects and mind constructs. You understand? So it is very difficult to... Because it cannot be taught. So you must open the eyes then you feel it.

Me: So only Mahamudra etc points out in a more direct way?

John: It's not actually (just) Mahamudra or Dzogchen. Certain traditions like Zen does not talk about it. Because in Zen it is directly pointing to human Mind, everything you have to experience after it's open how can he keep on teaching you, it's not school work, asking you to go study, 2+2, 3X5, you understand? It's left to the student to... it can take one whole life to experience something.

Me: So you were contemplating on it after reading Lankavatara Sutra?

John: Not exactly Lankvatara Sutra, part of it. Part of it is the Madhyamaka. Lankavatara Sutra is the most important one that made me really think of it that I think they are explaining something not in the right manner. (?) Then penetrate deeper. All the aspects of emptiness. If things are empty, how can it be like that? And what does non-arising mean in direct experience? So you go through cycles after cycles of refining.

In phase 6 insight, when I contemplate on emptiness, the principle of emptiness, and how to taste it experientially... I keep on thinking these six entries and exits, there's nothing. (?) These thoughts, where does it come from? (?) It manifests, where is it? This dancing sensation, where is it? The nature of it. Then you open in a state of non-dual, this entire scenery, where is it? So you go through the six entries and exits, this scent, this taste, all these are what we call the radiance of clarity. The modularity of this radiance. Where is it? So you see, the nature is empty and non-arising. It is like a mirage. It is like a rainbow. Then you understand the indestructible nature from the understanding of a reflection of an illusion. Not from the understanding of the substantialist point of view.

There is another level that is dependent origination. You see cause, but cause to me is not a power (?) effect within itself. So you go through these and later you see, it is like that, how can a cause be like that? Because it is nothing inherent. It is not causelessness. It is not sameness of cause.. it is not what... the cause is not inherent cause. Otherwise there would be a problem. So what does it mean? Actually later you come to see... at the conceptual level when you want to talk about cause and effect you are talking about dependencies. That means you do not see a cause that gives causal production.

You see dependent arising. So you see cause as dependencies, as endless dependencies, as imputation and dependencies, as function and dependencies, as parts and dependencies. As dependencies, not as some inherent power to cause and effect, to effect something. It is just a dependency, nothing is actually produced.. when we talk, it is endless dependencies.

If there is A, there is all the negative of -A that gives rise to it. Dependencies, not cause. Depending on each they arise. Just like newton view and Einstein's view of relativity. Gravity is a force by iself? There is no force by itself, it is just the mass of the object by itself, so dependent on the mass of the object, sun and earth, the earth goes towards the sun. The earth actually attracts you, you also attract earth, but your weight, your mass and earth's mass is different, therefore you are attracted to Earth. It is dependencies. It is not a force by itself, there is no gravity pulling you down, that is Newton view. Go and read about relativity. I look at you I know you don't understand. Your understanding of gravity is maybe, Primary school's gravity? So when you go to quantum mechanics, you go to Einstein's relativity, you do not see gravity that way. It is a dependency. There is no such force (in itself) as gravity, there is a force, that is Newtonic view. It is the mass of the object in relativity that cause in a curve-space, that causes gravity. So it is dependent on the weight, there is no force.

So when you think of inherent though, you will think like Newtonic view. There is nothing wrong with it. It is just a (?) to explain something. But when you think of relativity like Einstein, there is no such force, it is just a dependency on the weight between the earth and you, then you move towards the earth, you're attracted to earth because of earth's weight. The earth is attracted to the sun, the sun is exerting the force... it's not a force, not exerting, but because of the differences in weight on... space-time is like a rubber, so something that is heavy when you go down, then everything rolls towards it. That's gravity. It's the weight that (?) exert on the space-time that things roll towards it, it attracts towards it. It's not a force is pulling you and everything is pulled by the force, there is no such force in relativity. So it sees things as dependent.

Me: ?

John: Dogen is talking about his understanding of all these as this suchness. He sees all these at the D.O. Level. So once you implement at the communication and conceptual level, when this view comes into place you feel total exertion of suchness. When you look at the absolute view it is this. Vivid, clear, but when you look at the conventional level, you see endless dependencies upon dependencies. (?) There is the mind level, there is the non-conceptual level. But mind level you have to think correctly as well.

If I explain to you you must understand that it is just seeing this and seeing that. The face of a palm. But they understand both, but they emphasize differently. For example Kyle's case, because he talks about Madhyamaka as definitive view, so I talked about the definite view of Madhyamaka, how do you (?) non-arising back to yourself. But when I talk to Jax, zoom- direct pointing. So it is different (?) So if you ask me, I have no position, I just use what is yours, I talk according to your terms, not my terms, and I say, why don't you look at it this way, and bring it back to yourself, if you understand it is ok, but I'm thinking that what's being expressed is very conceptual. Means the view is right, means if you go through this stage there is perfection of this essence. If you go through like that. But it is conceptual. And it gives people the feeling of deconstructing a conventional designation rather than telling the direct experience of non-arising.

You're telling people a table, a chariot, an object, you give people the impression of deconstructing the conventional designation, the imputation, then it might lead to endless deconstruction at the mind level. But you understand correctly about non-arising, that is the meaning of non-arising and emptiness. But what about the direct experience of it, the direct realization as your own state? So there are two levels, somehow I cannot... the question that I ask is maybe not clear. Somehow he doesn't know what I'm asking. I wrote in a post and I think he knows what I mean.

And the other thing is, although he understands non-arising, (?) bring into his own self-state, did he taste it, like this sound itself is empty and non-arising, is indestructible and (?) in a way. This sound, this appearance itself, this thought coming and going... there is no coming and going, there is appearance but there is no coming and going like the rainbow, like the mirage, cannot be destroyed. Then the taste of the absolute and the relative, the conventional, the conceptual and the non-conceptual becomes one taste. You see the emptiness of both, you taste equally. The insight that brings along (?)

What is the insight about? You must say oh, it's non-arising, it's empty and non-arising. That is the insight. Just like you tell me, I experience samadhi, I experience clear awareness, I experience this, I experience clear space, I am like a mirror. But you see – I am, You, that's all. That is realization. It is not graspable... it is empty, it is non locatable, what is that? The insight – it never truly arise. (?) emptiness and therefore it does not truly arise. It's like a rainbow, you can never find it, but it is there. Rainbow is there, so clear, but you can never find it, not in any dimension, in any time and space, don't have. It is the mind itself, it is the radiance of the clarity, clarity is like that, everything that arises is non-arising. That is what we (?) but you cannot expect people to tell you. Then, the person that tells you is not a good teacher. Because he cannot point there...

That is what we call, we corrupt the teaching, you contaminated the ..., then next time how to tell you things? You must feel with your entire being, experience as if your own state, your eyes must be open. In future, next time maybe you start telling people or what, you must also observe this, observe that this is the most important, you can say a thousand times but it's useless, right?

I must rest these few days, never sleep. The deal is too important for me. So didn't get through, so must think of how... relax myself. Therefore answer more questions. Because my deal is in the process, I'm waiting, so I just talk in Facebook, but I'm going to stop already. Probably going to write a few posts in our blog then I'll stop.

Sometimes you write too much it's also no good. Because there'll be too much explanations. So you know the difference between 5 and 6? Then 6, only when you go through 6, the foreground, the background is gone, then you look at the foreground, it's empty and non-arising. Then there is what? Release, but it is vibrant and then releasing. Otherwise it is not possible to talk about self-releasing. So you must see the phases. That how one lead to the other. How are you going to lead to self-releasing? Because you are left with the foreground, the foreground just release. But how does it release? Because it is non-arising and it is empty, so it releases.

So during your I AM stage, you also said it is very blissful and then spontaneous arising, it's very different right? So many people will talk about that, but it's different.

You still visit the Zen center in Australia? By the way you already finished your degree right? Still in computer science? How is your father doing, quite OK right? This Piotr is also 19 right? Very enthusiastic like you. But he's very into Dzogchen. So that's why it's just some simple narration... trying to (comment?) Dzogchen, some people might not like it. Otherwise outside become like a cult. 

You cannot talk something like... or it is teaching the same as Dzogchen, this definitely... this becomes like cultic already. There is a tradition that they go through. Thodgal and all that kind of things. So, it's very different. Just sharing some experience (?) don't overemphasize (?) especially on my part. It's not good to overemphasize things.

Normally where do you keep all those things that we discuss and write? How come it seems you keep everything? Then how you search? You compiled all of them? So many? Hahaha

You must later have your own way of pointing. Li zhu lao shi, your ren cheng is actually a good start, there's no perfection... don't have to fit exactly your insights. Correct? Cos you're expecting for example a tradition to fit exactly your insight, right? So where to find? So Zen also cannot, later Dzogchen also say, how to find a good teacher? So where are you supposed to go, you say nowhere to go. Understand?

Me: But I'm also not so interested in traditions atm

John: Practice is ongoing, so you just practice by yourself, write your own things, go further, that's why I said get your own degree, Ph.D and all these, your own 心得.

Me: …

John: Very different perspective from you. But your perspective now is more on integrating the Soto Zen, Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Except the esoteric kind of teaching is not inside. But in terms of insight and realizaiton and what... in fact you are talking about what Jax is doing. Just take the essence only. But his is like leaving trace in the Absolute.

He is one fella, very special... 60 70 years old person right? See he's still very vibrant, a lot of energy. Which I think is good.

You need to observe the conditions, his yin yuan, and then skillfully do what you must do (?) But for Jax, it's very difficult to... It's not so easy, even lets say for example all teachers cannot point through, Longchenpa he also commented, those who achieved rainbow body he also commented, Malcolm he is not satisfied, Dogen also, and then even the (?) also cannot do anything. How can I do anything? Who am I to... I cannot be more outstanding than all those, right? It's only Yin Yuan, all things cannot be forced, only 因缘配合then you point out. But Jax's reach is too wide.

…You do not know whether he's talking about the physical world. You must understand that when we talk about physical drop, mind-body drop, what is actually gone? It doesn't mean your physicality gone right? So you must understand that it is just this entire experience free from reification. You are you, you look at your father he's still your father. Then you won't become solipsism. So you must understand all these. But your entire experience of awareness or experience itself is free of all these after you go through the insights. You become direct, gapless, non-arising. Then you will not become that.

So you interact but you are always in the state of freedom and non-arising. You are always alive, full of energy and spirit. Then you will not deviate. A lot of people deviates towards subsuming. To a self or to a physical (world) as the Dharmakaya. Otherwise the Brahman. So they subsume into One. They will have this trend. And not... this experience itself. But conventionally you are still you, I am still I. This is the difference. So you must actualize this experience. It is neverending. I did 13 years after that... 5 years ago I stopped writing. Actually I stopped writing for quite some time. Then I write again, then I stopped again. I am still keep practicing. So you are faster than me by many years. Then I was 37 or 36, you are 23. Then I had all those insights. Even then, it's only about six years ago, only. Then there is major breakthrough.

Major breakthrough means... when you are practicing, view is most important. A lot of things you will not be able to understand unless someone points out to you. And to point out... it must have that Immediate, direct pointing, then you understand... it is the whole of your understanding. Whole being understanding it. That is different. That is not mind level understanding. That is the most important. And you have to cherish this cutting through, that instant illumination. Then you are truly living, a living person, you are not a machine. So this is the most important. Then you are based on these 7 phases of insights... to face every (?) and you have to keep practicing. Because in future one will have many obstructions. One must practice until it becomes natural... (?) one keeps dropping, dropping... One must never entertain one's thoughts. Because in future there will be a lot of things, if you entertain the thoughts, you will never be able to let go. For example someone say something about you, then you kalang kaboh.

I have gone through so many years... you write some strange stuff, using my name, and a lot of people talk back and forth these strange things, also I did not reply them. So you must treat it as a form of practice. You must have patience. You must not have abidance in your mind. But with regards to your own breakthrough, you must be alive and spirit. That is Zen sect's direct pointing to human mind, passing it to you. But are you able to mature it to completeness? That you have to go through all these 7 phases. Not that you have to go through the 7 phases of insights, but to have the full blown... make sure you really see it and see it through, it's safer. Some people's wisdom is very great. With a simple pointing everything is understood. It is very rare, it is very difficult to find someone of such capacity.

But you're expected to live as this vibrant brilliance, non-arising clarity. Or awareness. Uncontrieved. You're expected to feel the entire energy, entire aliveness, brilliance. It's not something that is dead. So you should look back the things that you write, what is called the mind level, what is called *snaps* you understood. They're different. So that next time when you try to say, you are not trying to explain something. You can explain certain things, but certain things you cannot explain and teach. Certain things you can teach, certain things the more you teach the worse it becomes.

Certain things, like     Not relying on words or letters.
    An independent transmission outside the teaching of the scriptures.
    Directly pointing to man's Mind.
    Awakening of one's (Original-) Nature, thereby actualizing one's own Buddhahood.

Cannot... the less words, the better. It is just a face to face communication. In that communication, you have to observe the entire conditions, then ! You understood. This is then important. Everything is very raw, first hand, then when you feel it, your entire body-mind burst, and that's it. You understood. Then it becomes very alive. You feel and do everything... it's all these aliveness. Marvellous. Your understanding is all direct. And when you understand that moment, it is a heart to heart... you feel deep inside your heart. But you must learn how to release. Because also when you feel direct, there is also a problem. Because it touch deeper. So you must know how to release.

Sit and meditation is important, to have some quality hours. It is not a form of retrogression. It is a way to have quality time for yourself. So you keep practicing, entering into your three states. So that in your thoughts and direct experience, after going through the sixth phase, you should not have a form of conceptuality. It must be like your I AM... you walk walk walk I AM... now whatever you do, non-arise... or, total exertion, because you need +A. Total exertion, you face (time?) with Viraya, energy, not you and me facing, the whole universe is facing, you need a lot of energy. +A and -A, two of them are necessary. I have not much else to teach you. A lot of things you have to understand with your heart, to experience, meet conditions and then let it blossom. You need to meet conditions. Give it conditions for it to arise. Meet your dad, meet your mother, meet your … to let it arise. See a bird, see a what... weather, heat, etc how do you face it, keep arising, do not have a self, do not have any attachment, keep acting this way... until your inner background is completely non-existent, and your foreground is also empty, then the whole thing is total exertion, but both must... then you will discover it is wonderful and vibrant. Because your +A and -A is both present. So you keep doing, and practicing such way.

Studying is also this way. In studying, you must express your inner essence, your potentiality, to read.. but there is something that is, as a body there is certain causes and conditions, like you are always lacking in sleep, you are not working, like me, messing up your life. You have to pei he because when you reach my age, your clarity will not be there. Because you destroy your body and you keep cultivating your mind's wandering. So now that you have such an experience, insight and experience, you must practice, you are not... it is posteriority, not interiority, that is because you have many karmic tendencies, do not attach to them, do not destroy your body, you can not attach to the body but do not destroy the body. Even though mind body drops, it is the boundaries (?) that dissolve, luminous, but this (body) is still useful. So you must know how to keep this, maintain this uncontrieved clarity. This is most important. Even when you die you must maintain. When you die, you must still have this clarity, it must be so natural that when you have thought you are also thought. But in thought you will also not see thought as separated. Outside, inside, are nothing. They are empty in nature. Yet it is brilliant and space-like. So you must keep practicing, 1 year, 2 year, 3 year. I am almost practicing for 30 years. When you keep practicing soon you will reach my age.

When you discuss with others, do not overemphasize too much. Also do not insist.You only see people's causes and conditions and help out. Others also do not need to know how great you are. Because you are not satisfying your ego. You just want the person to know something. So you do not need to let people... this is a form of practice. Actually you are just making noise and put my... I do not need that. Entering and exiting you do not leave dust, leave traces, this is also a form of practice, also do not need to know much. A person must da guan and not leave a trace. That means you only speak, you know yourself, you do not have to say this and this is spoken by who and who... To me I do not need that. To you because you are still young, you think that these insights... but at the end the person must practice inner, when the inside is enriched he will not get affected by the outside. You keep insisting and insisting, saying you understand, but actually you do not. You only want to point out this and this. Then you observe the person's causes and conditions. If you have the heart, you have the compassion to really want somebody to understand something genuinely, then you have to look at the person's conditions. It is not a wholesale thing. It is, you look, mm... like that I think there is danger, maybe I do this, maybe I do that. For example Jax. Who do you think... don't talk about guide, but exchange, that is also good. What kind of causes and conditions must be present to *snaps*. That. How do you achieve that? It is very difficult. But if you want to do that, you have to observe causes and conditions. That is the most difficult. Others are very easy. Talk about this, paste. Talk about that... All that is very simple. But he will not understand. Your duty is that you genuinely want him to understand, so the method you use must be different. That is what is important.

So if you are me, what will you do? For example, a person is too attached to True Self, yet he is very deep experience, his experience is deeper than you but he has horizontal and vertical. Yours is (?), you are already ok. But everyone's further progress (?) nondual, non-arising, understand? These you have to go deeper into it, to relax and experience. Each of his particular phase is very deep. You have to think how to breakthrough to go (deeper), because he keeps dwelling (into depth), you want this (horizontal) he doesn't want, he keeps talking about depth, so you say you should (horizontal). This is not necessarily high, that is not necessarily low. So when this is high, when he knows a lot about that, he will naturally want to go into that (horizontal?).

I remember 20-30 years ago, my teacher told me something, I said I don't know why when I meditate my whole body is moving. He said, this is a very natural phenomenon. Then he said, jing ji si dong. 静极思动 When you reach the limit of stillness, you will (?) move. Then at another stage he told me, what is stillness? He told me a bunch of things. He said you must understand stillness from movement. Because  静极 will surely 思动物极必反,when things reaches its limit it has to come down. When things reach very deep, he will jump into the other side. He will surely jump. So when you observe causes and conditions, you see where he is at, when he reached here you can tell him that, when he reach there you can tell him that, when he reaches the bottom you tell him this he says (tak jali?) then towards the end he will reach the other side.

Like my teacher when I sit he say you must still keep sitting, you still have not have experienced enough stillness. I told him I still until I'm empty, … he said it is still not still enough. Then I keep thinking, and stilling, until I stood up and walked, he said ah you understood stillness.  静极思动物极必反. So a truly good teacher, whatever he says, every word will give his student's deep experience, and that student must also be mature, he must with all his whole body of causes and conditions experience what that teacher have said. After 30 days I still remember that, and I'm using that to observe all causes and conditions, to understand the seven phases of insights that I went through. I used my whole heart to observe and experience. When my mind has so many things, cutting through is not easy. It doesn't mean you rest your minds then you can cut through. But it provides better conditions. Cutting through doesn't mean you rest your mind then it comes. That is bullshit. It has nothing to do with this. You can have many delusive thoughts, many wandering thoughts, you can also be very still but you are still unable to understand. These two are equal conditions.

But once you open (realize) then you must use this to face everything. So when my teacher told me, I have to experience with my whole body, and I use that to judge the capacity's highness and lowness. Understand?  静极思动物极必反. So when a person is here, you do not talk about this and this and this, it is useless. Where is he at this point? When he is still here then you can talk about that, but when he experience that deeply there is no way. You can only tell him... when he talks about this, you say you also understand, he say that you also say you understand, then he wants to test you whether you truly understand, then you say you actually understand deeper than him, then he say this and that and you also say you understand, then he thinks woah this guy seems to really understand! Then he will think, maybe this is not bullshit talk. So it is a mutual communication. So if you have the heart to meet someone, then you have to prepare this... if you talk about that he will not be interested. But he wants to know whether you understand what he experiences. If you say you know, then he will ask you to talk about it. He must have this deep impression that you can communicate with him, until he is satisfied that you truly understands. Then when you are able to (communicate) heart to heart, then you can tell him, maybe there is this, why don't you look into it? Then handshake (?). That is the method I use.

He will from time to time test me. Then I will tell him it's this. Then for example when I talk about sudden and gradualness, what is important what is not, what is sudden realization, what is direct pointing to human mind, what is realizing one's nature and attaining Buddhahood, until what stages and how deep one's understanding is, then slowly he will think... hmm, this person can be communicated with, because he thinks he is higher, then slowly he thinks this person has substance. It is not that when you talk a thousand times with him he will listen. So if you have the heart to talk with him you must have this kind of patience, (wu li?), to communicate with him. Otherwise how do you... he is not someone with no experience. You must observe his causes and conditions. He has perhaps 50 years more experience than you. He has went through a life journey. He has met so many teachers. So many traditions. All are with substance. So just with a few words of yours you wish to convince him, isn't that very ignorant? So you must have these conditions to step by step communicate with them. Communication is a heart to heart... he sees whether you understand, even if you say I agree, he might not be satisfied. With his personality, when you say you agree, he'll ask you agree what? When you say you understand, he'll ask what do you understand? He must reach a stage where he is very confident that you truly understand his things, then he will discuss with you. So you are still not so successful at that. So you are unable to communicate with him. Things are not just to be vomited... you have to observe the causes and conditions. Do not think of oneself as too high, one must have an attitude of learning. And not think too highly of oneself.

When I discuss with him, I always leave some space for him to step down. Let someone have a stairs to step down, that is also good. But when you communicate or write, you must have talk about what one has learnt from experience, only then there can be a heart to heart communication. For example now if I have something to pass on to you, for example a teacher, a zen teacher, especially to someone like Jax. For example, I talk about unborn. How do I pass “unborn” to him? This requires yin yuan (causes and conditions). You do not need to talk or do anything, how do you pass it to him? When, nobody knows. This is someone's causes and conditions, patience and communication. I can discuss with you, I can avoid speaking about it for 4 years or 6 years. However when I communicate with him, how do I pass this original thing to him? If you truly wants to do this, you can make it into a koan. This koan itself, the correct answer is totally not within books. No way can you find the answer in books. I can make one koan, what I told you. Then, I can say, what is this? Do you understand? This is one way.

There is no way to use the intellect to understand because it is not in books. Then I would like to directly communicate with you what is unborn, non-arising. How do I pass it to you? This is Zen's most important area. And when we talk about the most important aspect of Zen, it is necessary that you must have a lot of conditions, have your dharma eye opened? Then for him to believe that you know more than him, because both aspects are opened, only at that point is there the causes and conditions. This is what is meant by observing causes and conditions. It requires time, communication, handshake, etc. Then he will have a certain respect and confidence for you, only then he will listen to what you say. When he is listening to you, he is trying his best to breakthrough, then you point out. Understand? That is important. Until now in my opinion, he has much confidence in me, but not to that degree, because the causes and conditions have not arrived. So observing causes and conditions is like this. Certain conditions are there, when all causes and conditions are there, it is different.

Nowadays koans are corrupted. There are even book answers. How can it become a heart to heart communication? Do you understand? It is now useless. Things are useless nowadays. It has become general affairs, no longer one is able to use it to communicate.  Therefore it made things difficult. A lot of koans are used for mere talking. Therefore it has caused many troubles and difficulties.

The first thing is to establish an understanding of transmission. For example with Jax, deeply discuss about these issues. What is direct pointing, what is … until he deeply understands, then communicate. How to communicate with this state of mind, do not talk about other things. Have to reach that state first. So if you want to communicate with him that has to be the way, otherwise how do you think you are able to communicate with him, lest guide him? The people he met are much more than you, they are all people that are (de wang), then you call someone who is ming bu jing chuan (unknown?) don't know what ghost to talk about this, it is already a miracle to be able to discuss to this point. So do not over-() Because his reach is too wide. (Easy to?) mislead others. A lot of people respect and venerate him. He has many groups. So you must have a heart to discuss with others, do not vomit (makes vomit sound) he will not accept it. How can he accept it? Even Longchenpa he does not accept. Didn't he say that he thinks Longchenpa is wrong? He has his own understanding, own style. That is also very important. Someone who is very attached yet he has his own experience. And very deep experience. That is then good.

Me: Greg told Jax not to teach Dzogchen but teach his own teaching.

John: Yes. But he is not satisfied. He thinks Dzogchen is saying this, Essence Mahamudra is talking about that, Zen is talking about this, he is not satisfied, he thinks what they talk about are these, he thinks they are not wrong, but he is unable to flow like water, he is always like a fly flying, leaving traces here and there, he is unable to become flow like water. In terms of function, in terms of experience, in terms of view, in these, he knows a lot. But he is unable to become flow like water, 化境 (hua jing),坐忘,化境。

Mind without reference is a form of  化境. When hearing just sound. It has naturally become a part of you, dissolved, there is no body and mind differentiation. Dissolved into one. Your things are a form of hua jing. Understand? Then when you experience you experience with your whole body, so what you understand is (shen?) very deep, you experience with whole... it is not superficial. So the cut through is beyond verbalization and all discursive thoughts. Directly penetrate to the deepest most essence. What is that? So, it is not just... Mind must also experience it this way. When I talk about non-arising, you must also experience it this way. When I talk about non-dual, you must also experience it this way. Then when you face others, you must also see whether they have that capacity, then they are able to breakthrough.

(…) your mother do not disturb observe conditions. (...)

I think teacher chen's meditation is very deep, he is not like you and me, I have many things to think about everyday. My quality hour is only one hour.


Practice has many sides. For example for you, it is not considered practice. Although you have experience you are unable to let it blossom. You must have a heart to spend some time to relax and still, and sit, sitting in this way you may have to sit 50 years, keep practicing. But your seven phases of insights are already there. Then you must experience it with whole body, every day every moment it is a practice. Then for example when you sit, you must relax, (?), then when you sit you must immediately enter into the quintessence of the seven phases of insights. Release, like open space. Then when you listen, only sound, non-arising, but yet total exertion, then relax. That is, have quality hours to relax, then when you open eyes, when you go outside, the entire thing is within your seven phases of insights, naturally absorb... your experience. Then when you sit, when you keep sitting, the moment you walk out, everything you experience is total exertion. When you breath it is so. When you breathe, it is so, yet it is non-arising. Understand? So you must have quality hours. Then your clarity must be good. You can take vegetarianism. But if you do not take vegetarianism then you must have enough time to rest. Because your time and mine is different. You do not have these kinds of unnecessary discursive thoughts, you have not gotten married and give birth to children, so you must first cultivate this discipline. You are like this now, you must go deep... phase by phase. Then you are able to 达成共识 (reach a common understanding).

Then occasionally the dreams you have is also a good thing. That is sometimes you are practicing. But when a person truly... I only did not tell you, I have many years of experience. I am not like you, keep talking this and that. So you must do deep practice, then when you enter deeply you will attain certain state. When you face whatever... because you have true experience, you are not afraid of being tested by anyone. Whether it is Teacher Chen, etc. Like ? This is written by who? You klkb, but when you wrote that out, they are very afraid, don't know whether to comment. When they want to comment their heart is beating, like this poem is... like he is facing an opponent, don't know where to comment from. When he reads he is afraid, when he wants to comment he is also afraid. When Teacher Chen meets you he also said actually I never read much books, I never … I only based on my own experience. He thought that poem is written by you, he is afraid, because you communicated with him through poem, because he is unable to breakthrough. Because this is like a koan. When you release, he is unable to breakthrough. You understand? When he meets you he doesn't know what to say. Understand? You must reach that. Then, when you affirm, for example when I affirm, that is transmission. Woah, that... Jax's whole body's experience to his heart, it is like he wants to cry is like that, that sort of feeling, what you write must be like that, a heart to heart, that kind of feeling. When you read, and what Kyle read, and Malcolm read, and Jax read, are very different. The impression and feeling that he experiences is different. He might cry. You do not understand, but I understand. So you are unable to shake that kind of heart to heart communication. The reader is different, the writer's intention is different. When you read, you are not like that, you do not understand. Kyle, when he reads, he does not understand it. Malcolm, or Greg, etc, because I do not write for them. For example the transmission, because their understanding is different, maybe they get irritated when they read it, Malcolm say fuck, talk these kind of things. But Jax might experience that until he cries. I'm not lying, he might cried. Because you must write until it touches his heart. Because I understand what he's thinking. The person you write to is different.

For example your Teacher Chen wants to experience something, he (wants to) pass his bowl (lineage), or he wants you to experience non-arising to you, but he ask you one question if you can answer him, he cries out. It is such feeling. So you must understand whether you are able to accomplish this, then you will truly 发威跟李 and not keep vomitting some things out and expect him to accept it, will he accept? Unless you are able to accomplish this, it is difficult for you to truly communicate and deeply discuss well with him. I do not have that much time, but I should still have a few times. A few more times to discuss with him.

Jackson is a very difficult (?) to teach. Very difficult for your standard to guide him. Very difficult, not impossible but very difficult. I think in your whole forum nobody can guide him. That is my opinion. Maybe possible, but I think not possible. Greg I think is also unable to.

But Greg's experience is very good. Because he went through both sides (Awareness and emptiness) and he enters very deeply into those two aspects, not just on the surface level. 

What I told you about the gravity, do you understand? Then, for example, X and Y is a universal set. You know what is a universal set right? Lets say the entire universe contains only two elements, A and B. If A travels at 50km/h and B also travels at 50km/h, then from the perspective of A what is B travelling at? 0. Yes. So what's that? Relativity. So is there any way that A can know that B is travelling at all? There is no other way because the universal set is 1 and 2. If I put in a C and C travels at 70km/h, what will be the speed of C? 20 only right? So it is always a relative aspect. There is no absolute aspect. In relation to this, that arise. Speed. Right? Therefore in actual experience, there is only two thoughts, this is what I explained to Piotr but Piotr doesn't understand. If there is only two thoughts, how can one arise? It is the same principle. If there is no comparison, the idea and experience that there is Y also cannot arise. If A and B travels at the same speed at 50km/h there is no such thing as they travel at 50km/h if they only hit stationary 0. I told him but I don't know whether he understands or not. This is a state of no-mind. But it's not anatta. But he doesn't accept it that time, Piotr. But you must see dependency, then it is more like... you must see dependency, then give rise to, then it is insight. Then you relate this dependency with direct experience.