Absolute and Relative?

 

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    28/4/13 6:20:48 PM: John Tan: Absolute and relative, absolute in relative and relative in absolute ... All these points to the fundamental problem of view
    28/4/13 6:22:31 PM: John Tan: Yet experiencing and the deconstruction of the 2 poles r crucial and must led to it's eventual dissolution into a new paradigm shift.
    28/4/13 6:22:41 PM: John Tan: Must lead
    28/4/13 6:25:24 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see
    28/4/13 6:25:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Not sure how I should explain. I just copy that part can?
    28/4/13 6:28:55 PM: John Tan: Hm...unless u want to adequately address that otherwise write in more detail abt this next time.
    28/4/13 6:29:19 PM: John Tan: When we discuss, write to the point.
    28/4/13 6:30:48 PM: Soh Wei Yu: How should I write about that to the point
    28/4/13 6:31:49 PM: John Tan: That will b a long essay...lol
    28/4/13 6:32:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's ok I already write long hahaha
    28/4/13 6:32:31 PM: John Tan: I know but I mean for me to write
    28/4/13 6:32:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    28/4/13 6:33:00 PM: John Tan: U talk abt a single activity that is already understood
    28/4/13 6:33:18 PM: John Tan: It is not the zen teacher's issue
    28/4/13 6:33:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
    28/4/13 6:34:49 PM: John Tan: The fundamental issue is the view of absolute and relative, absolute in relative and relative in absolute.
    28/4/13 6:35:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see.. Can u tell me how to reply on that 😛
    28/4/13 6:37:35 PM: John Tan: Why dogen pointed out and expressed as total exertion of maha experience in most mundane activity and not as Pure Awareness is also this issue. In fact that ultimate Awareness sort of understanding was being refuted.
    28/4/13 6:39:07 PM: John Tan: It will take some time to think through. As there r many issues related to it.
    28/4/13 6:39:34 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    28/4/13 6:40:56 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So I put my reply on hold first? 😛
    28/4/13 6:41:07 PM: John Tan: Still ok
    28/4/13 6:41:32 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But then how to address what u said is the main issue
    28/4/13 6:41:33 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Hmm
    28/4/13 6:42:15 PM: John Tan: Exchanges r ongoing ...
    28/4/13 6:44:13 PM: John Tan: It is not a one exchange and that's it.
    28/4/13 6:48:26 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So do I mention about the absolute and relative like what u said now? Not sure how to elaborate on It. Will email u again
    28/4/13 6:51:33 PM: John Tan: Not so relevant unless with more detailed explanation
    28/4/13 6:51:58 PM: John Tan: But I told u past and future r being transcended is not right
    28/4/13 6:52:49 PM: John Tan: Totally exerted does not mean u disregard past and future
    28/4/13 6:53:24 PM: John Tan: Like what u told me there is just now ... That is ignorant imo
    28/4/13 6:54:08 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Yeah not disregarded but cast off and exertion via interdependence
    28/4/13 6:54:05 PM: John Tan: This one thought contains all of past
    28/4/13 6:55:03 PM: John Tan: Not to fall into a now philosophy
    28/4/13 6:55:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I didn't say there is just now
    28/4/13 6:55:39 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I said I can't see aeons only what's presented
    28/4/13 6:55:48 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But what's presented is total exertion of conditions
    28/4/13 6:55:52 PM: John Tan: Like u see a building, disregarding how it is build from scratch is not wisdom...is ignorance
    28/4/13 6:55:58 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But doesn't mean I can see all conditions
    28/4/13 6:56:00 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Isn't it?
    28/4/13 6:57:38 PM: Soh Wei Yu: How about I put it this way
    28/4/13 6:57:50 PM: Soh Wei Yu: My intention to raise my hand... Gone... Exerted as raising my hand
    28/4/13 7:01:45 PM: John Tan: Don't anyhow express
    28/4/13 7:02:03 PM: John Tan: Let's talk abt de-chaining
    28/4/13 7:03:08 PM: John Tan: Past is gone, future has not arisen, just focus on now...what is being freed?
    28/4/13 7:05:12 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Traces of self, past, etc?
    28/4/13 7:09:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Any sense of a ground
    28/4/13 7:10:06 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Or any sense of any thing persisting
    28/4/13 7:10:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But there is no need to focus on now
    28/4/13 7:12:17 PM: John Tan: Din always say isn't whatever said r just stories? Why confuse urself with all these?
    28/4/13 7:12:48 PM: John Tan: Isn't this advise better than no past and future?
    28/4/13 7:12:58 PM: John Tan: Past
    28/4/13 7:31:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Insight into wrong view is needed for release
    28/4/13 7:31:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But trying to stay thoughtless
    28/4/13 7:31:29 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Not
    28/4/13 7:34:58 PM: John Tan: U borrowed from someone a sum of money, both the lender and u changes every moment, the lender is not the same lender and u r not the same u, so u din actually borrow and the lender din actually lend so if u pay the lender, u r paying the wrong person?
    28/4/13 7:37:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: All actions leave traces that continues in a stream of becoming but not lost, like karma
    28/4/13 7:37:59 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Conventionally one say one inherits and reaps karma
    28/4/13 7:38:08 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Actually just karma alone rolls and ripens
    28/4/13 7:38:17 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Likewise for owing and returning
    28/4/13 7:39:06 PM: John Tan: I m saying u must hv right understanding and not erroneous view
    28/4/13 7:39:55 PM: John Tan: I go makan
    28/4/13 7:40:10 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok.. Cya
    28/4/13 7:41:02 PM: John Tan: Also when u write to ur zen teacher, he writes humbly and u must write sincerely...not teaching him whatever
    28/4/13 7:41:47 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
    28/4/13 7:44:29 PM: John Tan: Therefore even if I want to write, I must write with utmost respect and sincerity. He is definitely practicing so must we.
    28/4/13 7:46:02 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
    28/4/13 8:10:40 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Sent u a draft
    28/4/13 8:19:13 PM: John Tan: Ok will go through later
    28/4/13 8:40:09 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Will add one more line "I apologise if my previous email sounded disrespectful"
    28/4/13 8:55:33 PM: John Tan: No need just this mail write properly
    28/4/13 8:55:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Huh
    28/4/13 8:56:28 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok
    28/4/13 8:56:48 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Have u read my draft
    28/4/13 8:59:09 PM: John Tan: Haven't...
    28/4/13 9:00:27 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    28/4/13 9:56:47 PM: John Tan: I change the para ... U rephase and make it more humble and sincere
    28/4/13 9:57:19 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok
    28/4/13 10:01:51 PM: John Tan: Not ur dreams arose out of my intention
    28/4/13 10:03:07 PM: John Tan: Ur dreams arose several times that coincide with the messages that I hope u can get especially when u r in army.
    28/4/13 10:04:15 PM: John Tan: U see it as more of a synchronicity than coincidental.
    28/4/13 10:04:58 PM: John Tan: U r saying it as a causal effect arose from my intention
    28/4/13 10:06:21 PM: John Tan: I did pray and meditate when u r in army regarding those stuff u dreamt but I m not sure y u dreamt of it...though I hope u can practice these in dreams
    28/4/13 10:07:01 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    28/4/13 10:07:27 PM: John Tan: So don't mystify it as if I hv special power ... Lol
    28/4/13 10:07:35 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Hahaha
    28/4/13 10:07:50 PM: John Tan: It maybe u picking up my thoughts 😛
    28/4/13 10:08:00 PM: John Tan: Change it
    28/4/13 10:08:05 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol ok
    28/4/13 10:11:13 PM: John Tan: Better...lol
    28/4/13 10:11:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Haha
    28/4/13 10:12:38 PM: Soh Wei Yu: By the way u only commented the part on absolute right
    28/4/13 10:12:47 PM: John Tan: Very soon u will make me a cult leader
    28/4/13 10:13:12 PM: John Tan: Yes ... It is just to point out
    28/4/13 10:13:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol..
    28/4/13 10:13:35 PM: John Tan: To look into it replacing a dry pure presence
    28/4/13 10:13:49 PM: John Tan: But put in a nice way
    28/4/13 10:14:44 PM: John Tan: Dogen is not only talking about pure awareness, not understanding pure awareness as dry Pure Presence
    28/4/13 10:23:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: By the way but not my view
    28/4/13 10:24:01 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I copy that too?
    28/4/13 10:24:12 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ur bracket
    28/4/13 10:24:28 PM: John Tan: Yeah but write it properly
    28/4/13 10:25:11 PM: John Tan: Means the deconstruction of absolute and relative r ur experiences but not ur view n
    ow ...
    28/4/13 10:29:24 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What u mean To look into it replacing a dry pure presence
    28/4/13 10:36:19 PM: John Tan: Nvm no need to add and add unless u understand what I mean
    28/4/13 10:36:42 PM: John Tan: Otherwise there will b no ending
    28/4/13 10:37:06 PM: Soh Wei Yu: U mean not pointing to awareness in and of itself ?
    28/4/13 10:37:27 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Btw u said he understood one activity, does he understand anatta?
    28/4/13 10:37:29 PM: John Tan: This issue is not a single issue...as I said is a total paradigm shift and how could it b capture in these words
    28/4/13 10:37:53 PM: John Tan: How I know he understands or not
    28/4/13 10:37:55 PM: John Tan: Lol
    28/4/13 10:38:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    28/4/13 10:38:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Dry pure presence is like substantial nondual isn't it
    28/4/13 10:38:55 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Dogen is talking about the manifold
    28/4/13 10:48:48 PM: Soh Wei Yu: By the way
    28/4/13 10:49:57 PM: Soh Wei Yu: "Another aspect of Dogen’s unique treatment of koans was his use of the Five Ranks of Master Dongshan (J. Tozan) to illuminate different perspectives available within a koan. The Five Ranks—first delineated by Dongshan and elaborated on by his successor Caoshan (J. Sozan)—are a formulation of the coming together of dualities. The first rank is “the relative within the absolute.” This is emptiness: no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind. The second rank is the realization of that emptiness, and is referred to as “the absolute within the relative”—the realm in which the enlightenment experience, or “kensho,” occurs. Yet absolute and relative are still dualistic. The third rank is “coming from within the absolute.” No longer in the abstract, the whole universe becomes your very life itself and, inevitably, compassion arises. Dongshan’s fourth rank is “arriving at mutual integration,” the coming from both absolute and relative. At this stage, the absolute and relative are integrated, but they’re still two things. In the fifth rank, “unity attained,” there is no more duality. There is just one thing—neither absolute nor relative, up nor down, profane nor holy, good nor bad, male nor female.
    Dogen never explicitly talked about the Five Ranks, except to summarily dismiss them, yet he definitely engaged them in a way that reflects a singular understanding and appreciation of their method. In “Sansuikyo” for example, he writes:
    "
    28/4/13 10:50:17 PM: Soh Wei Yu: - https://web.archive.org/web/20150121054037/http://www.mro.org/mr/archive/24-2/articles/dogenandkoansdaido.html

    (Comments by Soh: I also like reading John Daido Loori's explanations and expressions)
    28/4/13 10:50:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What do u think
    28/4/13 10:52:13 PM: Soh Wei Yu: From the way he put it
    28/4/13 10:52:24 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Anatta is instant tozan stage five
    28/4/13 10:52:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    28/4/13 10:55:32 PM: John Tan: For a genuine practitioner, there is no ending
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Soh Wei YuSunday, July 13, 2014 at 9:30pm UTC+08
    Hmm although bernie [glassman] uses the terms source absolute and relative in earlier part of the book, at later part he rejects them and says those are dualistic and extra notions. Yet he says it is necessary to go through those steps as long as one has not overcome sense of self. The five ranks.. at the fifth rank there is no more source, absolute or relative.

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Tibetan Buddhism on Maha Total Exertion

 

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In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen / No Movement

John Tan: If seen is just seen, then there is no movement.
Soh: Movement?
John Tan: In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen.  There is no changing nor unchanging.
Soh: Ic..
Soh: The nancy also said the same.. nothing changing or unchanging


[10:15 pm, 05/10/2021] John Tan: That is ultimate view.
[10:16 pm, 05/10/2021] John Tan: Conventionally, there is changes and impermanence and origination in dependence as the right way of expression.

Soh: https://nancyspoems.blogspot.com/
Nancy:


We are infinite reflections without a source
Echoes spinning
Fleeting images
Flowing thought dreams
Without sides or a middle
Dancing without movement or non movement
without direction or non direction
There are no colors or rainbows without us
Without an imaginary persona there is no imaginary heart
Beating
Loving all this
That is not this
Or that
Or both
Or neither

There is no one to be free or bound
Or gaze as infinite awe painting the dream scape with colors that cannot be seen
Only felt
No one to fall into your unutterable beauty
Or fall endlessly in love with you


….



At first this felt like, 'I am all this!"



Then it felt like, 'All this!'



Later it was .... 'Not even nothing...'


….

no eyes apart from the seeing....
no ears apart from the hearing
no sound separate from the listening...
no wind separate from your cheek
no love separate from your heart
no inside
no outside
the horizon that held the sky apart from the sea
untied itself
the timeline from birth to death collapsed
as well as the time walker
and left this knowing and feeling that there are no things
simply an atemporal seamless flow without movement or non movement....
no things to be permeant or changing ...
feels like the first and last kiss ....
a constant union of what was never apart...



Soh: Sounds like she went through the stages

John Tan: 👍

 

 

 

.................

 

“The next understanding you must have after anatta and emptiness is to know that all qualities similar to those that are described and sounded ontological are always manifesting presently, spontaneously and effortlessly after the purification of anatta and emptiness insights. That is, spontaneous arising is not just saying responding automatically. It is the manifestation of these blissful characteristics of nature spontaneously. Non-arising, unmoving, unchanging, pristiness, clarity... spontaneously present” – John Tan, 2009


“Mr. T: I cannot find a ground a base, to identify with, everything is changing constantly. Arising and passing away. All of experience, where do I stand?

Kyle Dixon: Arising and passing away are characteristics of conditioned phenomena. As practitioners of the buddhadharma, our aim is to fully realize the unconditioned nature of phenomena, free of arising and cessation. That natural and perfect nature, is the true refuge.

Upon realizing that nature, the Buddha stated the following:

I have obtained the ambrosia of Dharma,
 profound, peaceful, immaculate, luminous and unconditioned. 
Even though I explain it, no one will understand, 
I think I will remain in the forest without speaking. 
Free from words, untrained by speech,
 suchness, the nature of Dharma, is like space
 free from the movements of mind and intellect, 
supreme, amazing, the sublime knowledge. 
Always like space, 
nonconceptual, luminous, 
the teaching without periphery or center 
is expressed in this Dharmawheel. 
Free from existence and nonexistence,
 beyond self and nonself, 
the teaching of natural nonarising 
is expressed in this Dharmawheel.


— The Ārya-lalitavistara-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra” – Kyle Dixon, 2021




"This is correct.  "Permanent" is not referring to something not undergoing change, it refers to the absence of causing of arising." - John Tan, 2021


"To conclude, in the expanse of phenomena, there is no dual nature of appearance and emptiness, and no twofold division. Therefore, by a mere expression of language—through words—it is also said that the relative truth and ultimate truth are “indivisible.” Although the expanse is like this, separate categories are made merely in terms of the conventional, based on the way things appear. In this way, all phenomena included within samsara—all that is comprised by distorted perceptions and all that appears through the power of dualistic thought—are not real when analyzed. They are fluctuating and impermanent; therefore, these deceptive phenomena are the relative truth. And all phenomena comprised by great nirvana—which is difficult to realize and thus profound, free from constructs, and which is the luminous clarity of wisdom’s knowing, relinquished from all suffering—are beyond material and momentary phenomena. Therefore, they are free from the misery of change. Having the nature of immutability, they are the ultimate truth."

- Mipham

Duckworth, Douglas; Mipam, Jamgon. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 159). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

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