Soh Wei Yu

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I like how Dogen expresses the union of luminosity and emptiness as illusory vivid appearances:
The appearance of buddhas and ancestors in the world, being prior to the emergence of any incipient sign, has nothing to do with old, narrow opinions. This accounts for the virtues of buddha-ancestors, as of going beyond the Buddha. Unconcerned with time, the life-span [of buddha-ancestors] is neither prolonged nor momentary, as it is far from the comprehension of ordinary minds.
The ever turning wheel of the Dharma is also a principle prior to the emergence of any incipient sign; as such, it is an eternal paragon with immeasurably great merit. [Buddha-ancestors] expound this as a dream in a dream. Because they see verification within verification, it is known as expounding a dream in a dream.
The place where a dream is expounded in a dream is indeed the land and assembly of buddha-ancestors. The buddha-land and buddha-assembly, the ancestral way and ancestral seat, are all verification founded upon verification, hence all are the expounding of a dream in a dream. Upon encountering their utterances and discourses, do not think that these are not of the buddha-assembly; they are the Buddha’s turning the wheel of the Dharma. Because this wheel of the Dharma turns in all directions, the great oceans and Mt. Sumeru, the lands and buddhas are all realized. Such is expounding a dream in a dream, which is prior to all dreams.
The entire world, crystal-clear everywhere, is a dream; and a dream is all grasses [things] clear and bright. To doubt the dream state is itself to dream; all perplexity is a dream as well. At this very moment, [all are] grasses of the “dream state,” grasses “in” [a dream], grasses“expounding” [a dream], and so on. Even as we study this, the very roots and stalks, leaves and branches, flowers and fruits, lights and hues [of our perception] are all a great dream. Never mistake this, however, for a dreamy state.
Dogen, Shobogenzo, Muchu-setsumu (Expounding a dream in a dream), Trans. Hee-Jin Kim, Flowers of Emptiness, p.279-280

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Geovani Geo
Only perceiving the dream as a dream renders the dream real.
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Soh Wei Yu
Geovani Geo Where is the dream? Can it be found anywhere?
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Soh Wei Yu
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../daniel-post-on...

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Daniel's Post on Anatta/Emptiness
Daniel's Post on Anatta/Emptiness
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Geovani Geo
Where is it not?
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Geovani Geo
why did you post that link about Anatta? Where is the relation?
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Geovani Geo
You are so eager to stand correct that you don't even bother to read/understand what was implied.
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Soh Wei Yu
Geovani Geo You didn't get what I mean. I am not pointing at anatta. I am pointing to the emptiness of presence-appearance. Nowhere to be found, like a dream, a reflection, a rainbow, vivid yet unreal, nowhere, unlocatable, unfindable, empty, groundless.
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Soh Wei Yu
Related: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/05/rainbow.html
www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/primordially-unborn.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../non-arising-due-to...

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Rainbow
Rainbow
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Soh Wei Yu
If one establishes presence/appearance as real, one has not realised emptiness even if one has realised anatta.
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Soh Wei Yu
It is not only realising mere appearances r just one's radiance clarity but empty clarity is like that...like a . Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important.
1. Very "vivid", pellucid
2. Nothing real
Tasting either one will not trigger the "aha" realization.
- John Tan, 2020
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Geovani Geo
Positing "nothing real" is the same as positing something real
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Soh Wei Yu
Geovani Geo No.
Saying nothing is real is not positing anything.
"The great 11th Nyingma scholar Rongzom points out that only Madhyamaka accepts that its critical methodology "harms itself", meaning that Madhyamaka uses non-affirming negations to reject the positions of opponents, but does not resort to affirming negations to support a position of its own. Since Madhyamaka, as Buddhapalita states "does not propose the non-existence of existents, but instead rejects claims for the existence of existents", there is no true Madhyamaka position since there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be formulated; likewise there is no false Madhyamaka position since there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be rejected."
- Acarya Malcolm Smith
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Geovani Geo
Right. So you prefer "nothing is real" to "real". The former is more real.
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Geovani Geo
And I prefer to see the real in the unreal, the true-ness in the false.
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Geovani Geo
The fact that dreams are not-tangible, rainbow like, does not render them unreal, but real, exactly as that.
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Soh Wei Yu
If you can pinpoint somewhere and say there the dream is, then it is real. Instead, the vivid shimmering cannot be found anywhere despite vivid appearance, much like a reflection of moon on water. It is just a dependently originating presence that was never 'there' or 'anywhere', unfindable, like a mirage, a reflection, appearing yet hollow without substance. That should be the discovery. There is nothing real, physical, substantial, in any way. This empty and non-arisen nature of presence/appearance is its true nature. Not real, truly there, or worse -- physical, and so on. All the latter substantialist views simply obscure the true nature of presence/appearance and causes subtle grasping and landing or traces.
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Soh Wei Yu
If the reflection of moon on water or rainbow is really "there", then it would not be empty, it would have essence, and it would not arise due to dependent origination. It would stand on its own without the need for causes and conditions. It would not shift or disappear when you look at it a certain other angle or move slightly away or disappear in a few minutes. None of these are true (non-empty, having essence, not dependently originating), instead, we find that the opposite is true (all phenomena are empty, without essence, dependently originating).
Hence everything is non-arisen like a reflection and a rainbow, and non-arisen, and unreal.
“Pursuant to the middle view, Tson-kha-pa cites Nagarjuna's Yuk-tisastika and Candrakirti's Yuktisastika-vrtti.
Nagarjuna:
What arises in dependence is not born;
That is proclaimed by the supreme knower of reality Buddha).
Candrakirti:
(The realist opponent says): If (as you say) whatever thing arises in dependence is not even born, then why does (the Madhyamika) say it is not born? But if you (Madhyamika) have a reason for saying (this thing) is not born, then you should not say it "arises in dependence." Therefore, because of mutual inconsistency, (what you have said) is not valid.)
(The Madhyamika replies with compassionate interjection:)
Alas! Because you are without ears or heart you have thrown a challenge that is severe on us! When we say that anything arising in dependence, in the manner of a reflected image, does not arise by reason of self-existence - at that time where is the possibility of disputing (us)!” - excerpt from Calming the Mind and Discerning the Real: Buddhist Meditation and the Middle View
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Geovani Geo
Is it REALLY vivid?
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Geovani Geo
Or unreally vivid?
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Soh Wei Yu
It is conventionally vivid but ultimately unreal (empty).
Conventional means mere name only, like weather, it does not pertain to a true reality that is findable somewhere.
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Soh Wei Yu
Everything, every phenomena, including vivid clarity, can be conventionally true but ultimately empty.
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Geovani Geo
You are being extremely theoretical, dialectical to be more precise. There must be a poetical license in these matters. For instance: is "beauty" real or unreal?
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Geovani Geo
hein??
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Soh Wei Yu
In short, you are skewing towards the vivid pellucidity of PCE post anatta. This is not the true nature of consciousness. The true nature of consciousness/appearance is its unreality and emptiness. That is Thusness Stage 6.
"It is not only realising mere appearances r just one's radiance clarity but empty clarity is like that...like a . Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important.
1. Very "vivid", pellucid
2. Nothing real
Tasting either one will not trigger the "aha" realization.
- John Tan, 2020"
Ok I got to go rest.. this is not something that can be settled in a debate or argument, so I feel it is rather useless for me to go on and on about this. You really have to investigate with open mindedness into the emptiness teachings.
Put aside vivid presence post anatta, since those are stabilized. Look into its empty nature. As per the links I sent you above and this: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../putting-aside...
....
[5:23 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The whole universe is just burning light of empty clarity. Its literally like a flame burning due to dependent origination. Its like rainbow but rather than static is dynamically changing and flickering yet without anything arisen or abiding or ceasing. No origination or destination can be found either. I think empty clarity is quite familiar to me by now but somehow this analogy just came up. Changing is also conventional of course
[5:36 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: There is no end to the depth on the illusionariness of what appears. Focusing on realness will only end up in pce.
[5:37 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. yeah. Actually pce is already like a natural state here. But its not pce with physicality but empty clarity. Lol
[5:40 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Do you feel like passing through walls and the whole realm are not in any dimension?
[5:41 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Thats what i dont understand. Malcolm yesterday related empty clarity to passing through walls. I cannot do it lol except maybe in lucid dreams or what
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Did he say that?
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Interesting
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Lol what another coincidence
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan:
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[5:43 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Whole realm are not anywhere... yes
[5:48 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Keep seeing and tasting what appears are nothing real. Not only there is no sense of observer and observed, sounds, sensations and everything lost their "semantics" and "meanings" and fully absorbed as this empty non-arisen taste.
[5:49 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: This is unlike just sound, colors...etc

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Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
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Soh Wei Yu
6/9/2012 9:30 PM: John: I have told you about the disease of non conceptuality, you need to seek a balance. Otherwise it will limit your progress into phase 6 and especially 7. View must be fully integrated into your practice for you to understand what the maha experience is
6/9/2012 9:33 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. Maha is like everything is seamlessly interconnected as this very arising right, its not like one thing interacting with other (which would have segmented experience subtly), but that everything is integrated in one interconnected suchness
6/9/2012 9:40 PM: John: Many do not understand the implication of right view yet. You do not go non conceptual and realize the maha experience of suchness. It is just like how dualistic and inherent view has integrated into our moment to moment of experience. And we feel and behave as if the world is really dual. If a practitioner is simply at "in hearing, only sound and no hearer", he can still get stuck at no self and simply be awed by the grandeur of the pce. This is different from understanding the emptiness of self. Understanding "emptiness" requires you to understand the analogy given by the h2o YouTube and more. It also requires to penetrate into dependent origination by deeper investigation of the nature of experience
Where does sound go? Is there a "going, coming", is there a "here and there" of sound, is there a voidness where sound return to? Then what does it mean by "no going anywhere" and seeing DO. Then we begin to understand the view of activities and actions and when we see everywhere the seamless integration and total exertions, then maha experience will become more and more obvious and effortless. At this phase there is no self, no dual... All these are already implied...
There are the content of emptiness
You should look at few aspects
1. Seeing inherent object as a mere convention collating ... If a practitioner keeps penetrating whatever arises this way, experience will turn groundless and illusion -like
2. Seeing clearly in non dual mode but deep in us realize that this is merely a dependent originated manifestation, nothing ultimate and solidly real
3. You see "no going, no coming, no here, no there" and penetrate deeply into the seamless interpenetration of activities leading to the maha experience
Until this empty nature of whatever arises is intuited in our moment to moment of experience, you can then feel the total exertion and self liberating aspect of experience”
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Geovani Geo
You are tripping in your reveries... To fast to qualify, to classify.
I am asking you a simple question - not making a statement: is "beauty" real or unreal?
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Soh Wei Yu
The radiance and directness and gapless nondual taste of all luminous aggregates is just the initial anatta. It is not the mature realisation and taste of emptiness. The initial anatta can be skewed towards the radiance of PCE (pure consciousness experience) in foreground aggregates.
“[7:49 PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: I think non-arisen, non-inherentness, illusoriness emptiness have sunk quite deeply in me already.
[8:00 PM, 4/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. any triggers? Or just contemplating mmk (mulamadhyamikakarika)
[8:02 PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: I dunno but it is more experiential taste. And the understanding of it is clear and firmed. Radiance is overshadowed by such realization and understanding. I am letting it sinks slow and deep.
[8:04 PM, 4/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. What do you mean by radiance is overshadowed, not as important?
[8:21 PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: Means illusionariness overshadowed radiance”
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../advice-for...
Advice for Taiyaki
Also see:
+A and -A Emptiness (On the two experiential insights involved in Thusness Stage 6)
Last year, a forummer from the NewBuddhist forum (Albert Hong a.k.a. Taiyaki) penetrated within a year the realization of I AM to non dual and anatta. He is an avid reader of this blog.
Thusness wrote the following pointers for him:
"There are several points that maybe of help to Taiyaki:
1. First there must be a deep conviction that arising does not need an essence. That view of subjective essence is simply a convenient view.
2. First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual.
3. First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an 'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor one's progress for a few months.
4. Second emptying of phenomena will turn experience illusion-like but take note of how emptying of phenomena is simply extending the same "emptiness view" of Self/self.
5. From these experiences and realizations, contemplate what is meant by "thing", what is meant by mere construct and imputation.
6. "Mind and body drop" are simply dissolving of mind and body constructs. If one day the experience of anatta turns a practitioner to the attachment of an 'objective and actual' world, deconstruct "physical".
7. There is a relationship between "mental constructs", energy, luminosity and weight. A practitioner will experience a release of energies, freedom, clarity and feel light and weightless deconstructing 'mental constructs'.
8. Also understand how the maha experience of interpenetration and non-obstruction is related to deconstructions of inherent view.
9. No body, no mind, no dependent origination, no nothing, no something, no birth, no death. Profoundly deconstructed and emptied! Just vivid shimmering appearances as Primordial Suchness in one whole seamless unobstructed-interpenetration."
---------
On another occasion, Thusness wrote (not to Taiyaki):
...Like after anatta, as I have said many times the sense of externality and physicality can still be very strong. My deconstruction process of "externality" and "physicality" is actually based few questions: 1. Why is mind which is "mental" is able to "interact" with something "physical"? 2. Why does consciousness need conditions for its arising? 3. What is interaction? All these questions help stabilized my experiences when I penetrated them in my own way.
Illusion like realization (arose) when I contemplated "hereness" and "nowness" until my mind was able to intuit the logic behind all these, then experience becomes stable. However one can enter by experience to have a taste of it...
Labels: Anatta, Dropping, Emptiness, Maha |

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Advice for Taiyaki
Advice for Taiyaki
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Soh Wei Yu
"is "beauty" real or unreal?"
I have answered you umpteen times but you refuse to see it. Beauty is unreal, and not only is beauty unreal, even nirvana is unreal. If there is anything higher than nirvana, it too is unreal. In short, nothing is real.
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Soh Wei Yu
The Buddha already said,
"Nirvāṇa is an illusion. Even if there is anything greater than Nirvāṇa, that too will be only an illusion."
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Soh Wei Yu
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-concept-of...

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The Concept of Sunyata in Mahayana Sutras
The Concept of Sunyata in Mahayana Sutras
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Soh Wei Yu
ok gtg good night
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• Soh Wei Yu

  Geovani Geo You're just talking about non conceptual experience. Everybody down to an ant has non conceptual experience, because our five sense consciousness are always non conceptual. It can be followed up by a conceptual thought, but the five sense consciousness in themselves are non conceptual.

  It is also useless. It is useless to have a non conceptual five sense consciousness (all ignorant sentient beings are already having it anyway). It is also useless to have a non conceptual experience that you call "beauty". Why useless? It is not liberating, it has never gotten anyone out of samsara.

  Likewise even if after anatta one does not realise the emptiness and unreality of even the most beautiful PCE, then one still has not overcome deeply latent delusions.

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  Soh Wei Yu

  Speaking about Actual Freedom teachings, John Tan wrote before,

  John Tan wrote on 24 March 2019 to me,

  “Not going back. If you want to write a guide, write with sincerity. If you write with a sincere heart, I am sure people will benefit as those are genuine insights leading to effortlessness of instant presence. However, never claim or even suggest the phases of insight are end of journey, that is very naive, untrue and misleading.

  As for powerful vivid radiance, they are normal if you have spent quality time post your anatta insight. When the center is gone, externally you will feel like a ball of radiance appearing as the world. Internally, energetic radiance will beam through your body cells, vibrating on your crown, your face, dancing as pulsation of your flowing blood, that is the time you should seriously look into energy practice. If you are not interested in energy practice, just learn deep rhythmic abdominal breathing until a state of no mind into deep release, it will help to contain and regulate and the powerful energetic radiance.

  As for AF, the immolation of Self/self is simply the deconstruction of mental construct of self as a center background. Richard has carried it far enough to reach total exertion which he called "realizing one's destiny" if I remember correctly. However the same cause reifying the background is now manifesting in the foreground as the "actual world", therefore there is no thorough liberation. Imo from the perspective of self immolation, he has carried it further than you and his essays can definitely help to guide you. It does seems final in a pseudo sense.

  For you, it will be difficult to find a teacher but if you humble yourself, everyone, every event is your teacher. When I tell you to differentiate experience from realization and established firmly on the view as your guide, the purpose is not for you to go around stereotyping people, it is strictly for your own development.

  Lastly due to the Awakening to Reality group and your relentless advertisement, I have been receiving messages. I do not want to mislead people and I am not a spiritual teacher and I do not wish to develop it into a cultic group. As for me, practice is ongoing and there is no finality. So I will continue my never ending journey. You can WhatsApp me just don't message me who is at what stage… lol.”

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      What liberates is not non conceptual experience. What liberates is prajna, the wisdom that realizes emptiness directly. Twofold emptiness -- both the self/Self, and also all phenomena. Anatta is just the first part. Wisdom of dependent origination and emptiness is even more vital after that, else one simply gets stuck with the grandeur of the radiance of "actual world" being reified as real (like Actual Freedom teachings)

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 Mr H: Thank you mate, I will look into everything focused and calmly this week.

I want to ask you beforehand, what would in your opinion be the most important part of "practise" to reach anatta ?

To be more specific, did you incorporate any new habit of meditating, thinking or living in order to reach anatta, and if you did, what would you say would be the most important factor ?

I might realise what to do after reading the information you sent but I wanted to ask you right now out of curiosity :)

Soh replied:

for me the most important is to 1) have the right view at least intellectually at first, so that one can know what to investigate/contemplate/challenge (one's deluded sense of inherent existence and duality), for example.

reading through the articles above** will help you with that.

2) after I AM, i focused on the four aspects of I AM, which served as a pre condition for successful nondual and anatta contemplation -- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/four-aspects-of-i-am.html

3) personally, contemplating on bahiya sutta led to my anatman breakthrough, see https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/10/my-commentary-on-bahiya-sutta.html , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/a-zen-exploration-of-bahiya-sutta.html , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/12/the-sutta-about-bahiya.html

4) these articles has also led others to the anatman breakthrough: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/two-types-of-nondual-contemplation.html

**"the articles above" refers to my earlier sharing with him:

these links will be helpful, you can slowly go through them but focus particularly on the first four that are numbered 1 to 4, excerpt taken from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html : 

Soh to someone at the I AM phase: In my AtR (awakening to reality community), more than 60+ people have realised anatta and most have went through the same phases (from I AM to non dual to anatta ... and many have now went into twofold emptiness), and you are most welcomed to join our online community if you wish: https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality
For practical purpose, if you had the I AM awakening, and focus on contemplating and practicing based on these articles, you will be able to awaken the anatta insight within a year. Plenty of people get stuck at I AM for decades or lifetimes, but I progressed from I AM to anatta realisation within a year due to guidance from John Tan and focusing on the following contemplations:


1) The Four Aspects of I AM , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/four-aspects-of-i-am.html

2) The Two Nondual Contemplations , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/two-types-of-nondual-contemplation.html

3) The Two Stanzas of Anatta , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html

4) Bahiya Sutta , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/10/my-commentary-on-bahiya-sutta.html


its important to go into the textures and forms of awareness, not just dwell on formless... then with contemplating the two stanzas of anatta, you will breakthrough to nondual anatta

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/thusnesss-vipassana.html

here's an excerpt from another good article 

“It is extremely difficult to express what is ‘Isness’. Isness is awareness as forms. It is a pure sense of presence yet encompassing the ‘transparent concreteness’ of forms. There is a crystal clear sensations of awareness manifesting as the manifold of phenomenal existence. If we are vague in the experiencing of this ‘transparent concreteness’ of Isness, it is always due to that ‘sense of self’ creating the sense of division… ...you must stress the ‘form’ part of awareness. It is the ‘forms’, it is the ‘things’.” - John Tan, 2007
 
 
 
These articles can also help:
 
my article No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/no-nouns-are-necessary-to-initiate-verbs.html, 
 
my article The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the Wind - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/08/the-wind-is-blowing.html,  
 
Daniel's Explanations on Vipassana - https://vimeo.com/250616410,  
 
A Zen Exploration of the Bahiya Sutta (Anatta and Bahiya Sutta as explained in the context of Zen Buddhism by a Zen teacher who went through the phases of insights) https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/a-zen-exploration-of-bahiya-sutta.html
 
Joel Agee: Appearances are Self-Illuminating https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/09/joel-agee-appearances-are-self_1.html
 
Advice from Kyle Dixon https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/10/advise-from-kyle_10.html
 
A Sun That Never Sets https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/03/a-sun-that-never-sets.html
 
Early Forum Posts by Thusness - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/09/early-forum-posts-by-thusness_17.html (as Thusness said himself, these early forum posts are suitable for guiding someone from I AM to nondual and anatta), 
 
Part 2 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/12/part-2-of-early-forum-posts-by-thusness_3.html
 
Part 3 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/07/part-3-of-early-forum-posts-by-thusness_10.html
 
Early Conversations Part 4 - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/08/early-conversations-part-4_13.html
 
Early Conversations Part 5 -  https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2015/08/early-conversations-part-5.html
 
Early Conversations Part 6 - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2015/08/early-conversations-part-6.html

Thusness's (Forum) Conversations Between 2004 to 2012 - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/01/thusnesss-conversation-between-2004-to.html
 
A Compilation of Simpo's Writings - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/09/a-compilation-of-simpos-writings.html
 

you can contemplate on the anatta stanzas

and see this convo:

"Session Start: Monday, September 22, 2008

(12:31 PM) AEN: hi i replied you just now
(12:31 PM) AEN: i mean forum
(12:54 PM) Thusness: don't talk about effortless and spontaneity
(12:54 PM) Thusness: if we look at Isis question, why is it so?
(12:54 PM) Thusness: why is there fear and phobia?
(12:55 PM) Thusness: What is mind?
(12:56 PM) AEN: bcos of past experiences right
(12:56 PM) AEN: like something happened before
(12:56 PM) AEN: and so when he/she experience something (like dog)
(12:57 PM) AEN: then he/she will react through conditioned thinking
(12:57 PM) AEN: so give rise to fear
(12:57 PM) Thusness: you are using logical reasoning
(12:57 PM) AEN: its like habitual reaction
(12:58 PM) AEN: or karmic propensity?
(12:58 PM) Thusness: all experiences that resulted has just one impact, they becomes imprints
(12:58 PM) AEN: oic
(12:58 PM) Thusness: so what is mind?
(12:58 PM) AEN: imprints and mental activities?
(12:58 PM) Thusness: you must feel it
(12:59 PM) Thusness: it is not an entity...
(12:59 PM) Thusness: it is a tendency
(12:59 PM) Thusness: that is not as an entity...u still have that sensation as if it is a Witness, an entity because you cannot feel this truth yet.
(1:00 PM) Thusness: can you see that mind As an arising tendency
(1:01 PM) AEN: the other day when meditating i had a sense suddenly that my entire mind is just tendencies arising, and there is like no thinker
(1:01 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:02 PM) Thusness: you must first feel this truth with your entire being
(1:02 PM) Thusness: like what Jeff Foster said, 'YOU' are just an arising thought
(1:02 PM) AEN: oic
(1:02 PM) Thusness: don't worry too much how it arises and how it subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: for now, you must see 'what is'
(1:03 PM) Thusness: a thought arises, then subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: then sound, then subsides
(1:03 PM) Thusness: then another thought arises
(1:04 PM) Thusness: what is thought?
(1:04 PM) AEN: just thought lor
(1:04 PM) AEN: awareness?
(1:04 PM) Thusness: no good
(1:04 PM) AEN: its like a kind of phenomena just like sound, sight, etc
(1:05 PM) AEN: but a different kind
(1:05 PM) Thusness: very good
(1:05 PM) Thusness: very good. 🙂
(1:05 PM) Thusness: what sort of phenomena?
(1:05 PM) AEN: dunnu how to describe it leh
(1:05 PM) AEN: mental phenomena?
(1:05 PM) Thusness: haha...
(1:05 PM) Thusness: yes what is it like?
(1:06 PM) AEN: images recalled, mental reasoning, arising in the mind?
(1:07 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:07 PM) AEN: words, etc
(1:07 PM) Thusness: but what that is more important, it is a 'knowing' or 'luminous' phenomenon
(1:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:08 PM) Thusness: an arising thought, then another arising thought
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:08 PM) Thusness: each thought is 'luminous'
(1:08 PM) Thusness: first you must know this
(1:08 PM) Thusness: but if you see it from all previous experiences, you 'see' differently.
(1:09 PM) Thusness: what is seen is 'An Eternal Witness' sort of experience.
(1:09 PM) Thusness: is it not true?
(1:10 PM) AEN: yea
(1:10 PM) AEN: and theres a subtle tendency to push away all thoughts rather than simple see everything as it is
(1:10 PM) AEN: or rather
(1:10 PM) AEN: attempt to be the background awareness
(1:10 PM) Thusness: yes the tendency to push, to relate to a 'center' a source
(1:10 PM) Thusness: to be a container, a background
(1:11 PM) Thusness: you must feel the differences
(1:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:12 PM) Thusness: it is just a tendency to relate back to a source and refuses to 'see' what is.
(1:13 PM) Thusness: every arising of a thought carries with it deeply rooted imprints
(1:13 PM) Thusness: that 'blinds'
(1:13 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:14 PM) AEN: and the eternal witness is the thought of what is and what isnt awareness right, then becomes a tendency
(1:14 PM) AEN: to sink back to a center
(1:14 PM) Thusness: yes
(1:14 PM) Thusness: but first you must understand 'thought'
(1:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness: a thought is luminous
(1:15 PM) Thusness: a luminous arising mental phenomena
(1:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:15 PM) Thusness: isn't it?
(1:16 PM) AEN: yes
(1:16 PM) Thusness: besides that what else? Isn't it always so?
(1:16 PM) Thusness: 'You are just an arising thought'
(1:17 PM) Thusness: a luminous thought at this moment 'looking' back, relating
(1:17 PM) Thusness: pondering
(1:17 PM) Thusness: in thinking, there is only thoughts
(1:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:17 PM) Thusness: now meditate on the stanza
(1:18 PM) Thusness: in thinking there is only thought
(1:18 PM) Thusness: in hearing, there is only sound
(1:18 PM) Thusness: just this two lines is enough
(1:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:21 PM) AEN: so whenever thoughts, tendency arise, we should just experience the thought as it is
(1:21 PM) AEN: as luminous
(1:21 PM) Thusness: no
(1:22 PM) Thusness: you must first understand clearly what is meant by no-self
(1:23 PM) Thusness: but know what is thought first.
(1:23 PM) Thusness: then understand anatta
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:31 PM) Thusness: What is the different between in 'thinking, no thinker' and in thinking, only thoughts?
(1:31 PM) AEN: the luminosity of the thought is not thoroughly experienced even though there is insight into no split?
(1:31 PM) AEN: i dunno
(1:32 PM) Thusness: until you understand, then tell me.
(1:32 PM) Thusness: 😛
(1:32 PM) AEN: lol ok
(1:35 PM) AEN: in thinking, only thought, means each thought is discrete and complete?
(1:35 PM) AEN: no linking
(1:37 PM) AEN: before that there is still chaining of one thought with another?
(1:39 PM) Thusness: okie..so so only...anyway you have not understood the real essence of being unsupported, discrete and complete yet.
(1:40 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:40 PM) Thusness: just meditate on the first 2 lines : in thinking, just thoughts and in hearing, just sound
(1:40 PM) AEN: ok"

you can also read this: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/11/few-excerpts-from-clarifying-natural.html