Also see: Two Types of Nondual Contemplation after I AM
Exertion that is neither self-imposed nor imposed by others

Also see: Problem with Many Zen Teachings
My opinion on Shurangama Sutra

If the historical Zen masters Chinul and Zong-mi are depicting the views of the various historical Zen masters correctly, it is quite clear that different historical Zen masters are at different stages of the Thusness 7 Stages of Awakening (which is not at all surprising as the same situation is present today among different dharma teachers of various Buddhist traditions).

E.g. Chinul and Zongmi/Tsung-mi themselves are at Thusness Stage 4/Mirror Bright, Hung Chou (Mazu Daoyi's school) sounds like it's describing Anatta/Stage 5, Northern School sounds like I AM/Stage 1, while Niu Tou Farong sounds like he's describing the Stage 6 realization of the non-arising of both mind and phenomena. This is also related to Thusness's article Three levels of understanding Non-Dual

From: The Korean Approach to Zen

Excerpts from Dharma Collection

Also see:

Another Kind of Self-Inquiry: Chandrakirti’s Sevenfold Reasoning on Selflessness
+A and -A Emptiness


Thusness had a deeper insight into emptiness in the past after encountering the chariot analogy by Arahant Nagasena. You can refer to his discussion on this here.

For full text refer to http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut045.htm

The Questions of King Milinda

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Introduction

In the land of the Bactrian Greeks, there was a city called Sagala, a great centre of trade. Rivers and hills beautified it, delightful landscapes surrounded it, and it possessed many parks, gardens, woods, lakes and lotus-ponds. Its king was Milinda, a man who was learned, experienced, intelligent and competent, and who at the proper times carefully observed all the appropriate Brahminic rites, with regard to things past, present and future. As a disputant he was hard to assail, hard to overcome, and he was recognized as a prominent sectarian teacher.

One day, a numerous company of Arhats, who lived in a well-protected spot in the Himalayas, sent a messenger to the Venerable Nagasena, then, at the Asoka Park in Patna, asking him to come, as they wished to see him. Nagasena immediately complied by vanishing from where he was and miraculously appearing before them.

And the Arhats said to him: "That king Milinda, Nagasena, constantly harasses the order of monks with questions and counter-questions, with arguments and counter-arguments. Please go, Nagasena, and subdue him!"

But Nagasena replied: "Nevermind just this one king Milinda! If all the kings of India would come to see me with their questions, I could well dispose of them, and they would give no more trouble after that! You may go to Sagala without any fear whatever!"

And the elders went to Sagala, lighting up the city with their yellow robes which shone like lamps, and bringing with them the fresh breeze of the holy mountains.

The Venerable Nagasena stayed at the Sankheyya hermitage together with 80,000 monks. King Milinda, accompanied by a retinue of 500 Greeks, went up to where he was, gave him a friendly and courteous greeting, and sat on one side. Nagasena returned his greetings, and his courtesy pleased the king's heart.
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THE CHARIOT

And King Milinda asked him: "How is Your Reverence known, and what is your name, sir?"

"As Nagasena I am known, O Great King, and as Nagasena do my fellow religious habitually address me. But although parents give name such as Nagasena, or Surasena, or Virasena, or Sihasena, nevertheless, this word "Nagasena" is just a denomination, a designation, a conceptual term, a current appellation, a mere name. For no real person can here be apprehended."

But King Milinda explained: "Now listen, you 500 Greeks and 80,000 monks, this Nagasena tells me that he is not a real person! How can I be expected to agree with that!" And to Nagasena he said: "If, Most Reverend Nagasena, no person can be apprehended in reality, who then, I ask you, gives you what you require by way of robes, food, lodging, and medicines? Who is it that guards morality, practises meditation, and realizes the [Four] Paths and their Fruits, and thereafter Nirvana? Who is it that killing living beings, takes what is not given, commits sexual misconduct, tell lies, drinks intoxicants? Who is it that commits the Five Deadly Sins? For, if there were no person, there could ne no merit and no demerit; no doer of meritorious or demeritorious deeds, and no agent behind them; no fruit of good and evil deeds, and no reward or punishment for them. If someone should kill you, O Venerable Nagasena, would not be a real teacher, or instructor, or ordained monk! You just told me that your fellow religious habitually address you as "Nagasena". Then, what is this "Nagasena"? Are perhaps the hairs of the head "Nagasena?"

"No, Great King!"

"Or perhaps the nails, teeth, skin, muscles, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, serous membranes, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach, excrement, the bile, phlegm, pus, blood, grease, fat, tears, sweat, spittle, snot, fluid of the joints, urine, or the brain in the skull-are they this "Nagasena"?"

"No, Great King!"

"Or is "Nagasena" a form, or feelings, or perceptions, or impulses, or consciousness?"

"No, Great King!"

Then is it the combination of form, feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness?"

"No, Great King!"

"Then is it outside the combination of form, feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness?"

"No, Great King!"

"Then, ask as I may, I can discover no Nagasena at all. This "Nagasena" is just a mere sound, but who is the real Nagasena? Your Reverence has told a lie, has spoken a falsehood! There is really no Nagasena!"

Thereupon, the Venerable Nagasena said to King Milinda: "As a king you have been brought up in great refinement and you avoid roughness of any kind. If you would walk at midday on this hot, burning, and sandy ground, then your feet would have to trend on the rough and gritty gravel and pebbles, and they would hurt you, your body would get tired, your mind impaired, and your awareness of your body would be associated with pain. How then did you come on foot, or on a mount?"

"I did not come, Sir, on foot, but on a chariot."

"If you have come on a chariot, then please explain to me what a chariot is. Is the pole the chariot?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Is then the axle the chariot?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Is it then the wheels, or the framework, of the flag-staff, or the yoke, or the reins, or the goad-stick?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Then is it the combination of poke, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins, and goad which is the "chariot"?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Then, is this "chariot" outside the combination of poke, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins and goad?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Then, ask as I may, I can discover no chariot at all. This "chariot" is just a mere sound. But what is the real chariot? Your Majesty has told a lie, has spoken a falsehood! There is really no chariot! Your Majesty is the greatest king in the whole of India. Of whom then are you afraid, that you do not speak the truth?" And he exclaimed: "Now listen, you 500 Greeks and 80,000 monks, this King Milinda tells me that he has come on a chariot. But when asked to explain to me what a chariot is, he cannot establish its existence. How can one possibly approve of that?"

The 500 Greeks thereupon applauded the Venerable Nagasena and said to King Milinda: "Now let You Majesty get out of that if you can!"

But King Milinda said to Nagasena: "I have not, Nagasena, spoken a falsehood. For it is in dependence on the pole, the axle, the wheels, the framework, the flag-staff, etc, there takes place this denomination "chariot", this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name."

"Your Majesty has spoken well about the chariot. It is just so with me. In dependence on the thirty-two parts of the body and the five Skandhas, there takes place this denomination "Nagasena", this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name. In ultimate realtiy, however, this person cannot be apprehended. And this has been said by our sister Vajira when she was face to face with the Lord Buddha:

"Where all constituent parts are present, the word "a chariot" is applied. So, likewise, where the skandhas are, the term a "being" commonly is used."

"It is wonderful, Nagasena, it is astonishing, Nagasena! Most brilliantly have these questions been answered! Were the Lord Buddha Himself here, He would approve what you have said. Well spoken, Nagasena! Well spoken!"
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Personal Identity and Rebirth

The king asked: "When someone is reborn, Venerable Nagasena, is he the same as the one who just died, or is he another?"

The elder replied: "He is neither the same nor another."

"Give me an illustration!"

"What do you think, Great King? When you were a tiny infant, newly born and quite soft, were you then the same as the one who is now grown up?"

"No, that infant was one, I, now grown up, am another."

"If that is so, then, Great King, you have had no mother, no father, no reaching, no schooling! Do we then take it that there is one mother for the embryo in the first stage, another for the second stage, another for the third, another for the fourth, another for the baby, another for the grown-up man? Is the school-boy one person, and the one who has finished school another? Does one commit a crime, but the hands and feet of another are cut off?"

"Certainly not! But what would you say, Reverend Sir, to all that?"

The elder replied: "I was neither the tiny infant, newly born and quite soft, nor am I now the grown-up man; but all these are comprised in one unit depending on this very body."

"Give me a simile!"

"If a man were to light a lamp, could it give light throughout the whole night?"

"Yes, it could."

"Is now the flame which burns in the first watch of the night the same as the one which burns in the second?"

"It is not the same."

"Or is the flame which burns in the second watch the same as the one which burns in the last one?"

"It is not the same."

"Do we then take it that there is one lamp in the first watch of the night, another in the second, and another again in the third?"

"No, it is just because of the light of the lamp shines throughout the night."

"Even so must we understand the collocation of a series of successive dharmas. At rebirth one dharma arises, while another stops; but the two processes take place almost simultaneously (i.e. they are continous). Therefore, the first act of consciousness in the new existence is neither the same as the last act of consciousness in the previous existence, nor it is the another."

"Give me another simile!"

"Milk, once the milking is done, turns after sometimes into curds; from curds it turns into fresh butter; and from fresh butter into ghee. Would it now be correct to say that the milk is the same thing as the curds, or the fresh butter, or the ghee?"

"No, it would not. But they have been produced because of it."

"Just so must be understood the collocation of a series of successive dharmas."
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Personal Idenitity and Karma

The king asked: "Is there, Venerable Nagasena, any being which passes on from this body to another body?"

"No, Your Majesty!"

"If there were no passing on from this body to another, would not one then in one's next life be freed from the evil deeds committed in the past?"

"Yes, that would be so if one were not linked once again with a new organism. But since, Your Majesty, one is linked once again with a new organism, therefore one is not freed from one's evil deeds."

"Give me a simile!"

"If a man should steal another man's mangoes, would he deserve a thrashing for that?"

"Yes, of course!"

"But he would not have stolen the very same mangoes as the other one had planted. Why should he deserve a thrashing?"

"For the reason that the stolen mangoes had grown because of those that were planted."

"Just so, Your Majesty, it is because of the deeds one does, whether pure or impure, by means of this psycho-physical organism, that one is once again linked with another psycho-physical organism, and is not freed from one's evil deeds."

"Very good, Venerable Nagasena!"

The king said: "Is it through wise attention that people become exempt from further rebirth?"

"Yes, that is due to wise attention, and also to wisdom, and the other wholesome dharmas."

"But is not wise attention the same as wisdom?"

"No, Your Majesty! Attention is one thing, and wisdom another. Sheep and goats, oxen and buffaloes, camels and asses have attention, but wisdom they have not."

"Well put, Venerable Nagasena!"

The king asked: "What is the mark of attention, and what is the mark of wisdom?"

"Consideration is the mark of attention, cutting off that of wisdom."

"How is that? Give me a simile!"

"You know barley-reapers, I suppose?"

"Yes, I do."

"How then do they reap the barley?"

"With the left hand they seize a bunch of barley, in the right hand they hold a sickle, and they cut off the barley with that sickle."

"Just so, Your Majesty, the yogin seizes his mental processes with his attention, and by his wisdom he cuts off the defilements."

"Well put, Venerable Nagasena!"

The king said: "When you just spoke of the other wholesome dharmas, which one did you mean?"

"I meant morality, faith, vigour, mindfulness, and concentration."

"And what is the mark of morality?"

"Morality has the mark of providing a basis for all wholesome dharmas, whatever they may be. When based on morality, all the wholesome dharmas will not dwindle away."

"Give me an illustration!"

"As all plants and animals which increase, grow, and prosper, do so with the earth as their basis, just so the yogin, with morality as his support, with morality as basis, develops the five cardinal virtues, i.e. faith, vigour, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom."

"Give me an illustration!"

"As the builder of a city when constructing a town, first of all clears the site, removes all stumps and thorns, and levels it; and only after that he lays out and marks off the roads and cross-roads, and so builds the city. Even so the yogin develops the five cardinal virtues with morality as his support, with morality as his basis."

The king said: "What is the mark of faith?"

"Faith makes serene, and it leaps forward."

"And how does faith make serene?"

"When faith arises it arrests the [Five] Hindrances, and the heart becomes free from them, clear, serene and undisturbed."

"Give me an illustration!"

"A universal monarch might on his way, together with his fourfold army, cross over a small stream. Stirred up by the elephants and horses, by the chariots and infantry, the water would become disturbed, agitated and muddy. Have crossed over, the universal monarch would order his men to bring some water to drink. But the king would possesses a miraculous water-cleaning gem, and his men, in obedience to his command, would throw it into the stream. Then at once all fragments of vegetation would float away, the mud would settle at the bottom, the stream would become clear, serene and undisturbed, and fit to be drunk by the universal monarch. Here the stream corresponds to the heart, the monarch's men to the yogin, the fragments of vegetation and the mud to the defilements, and the miraculous water-clearing gem to faith."

"And how does faith leap forward?"

"When the yogin sees that the hearts of other have been set free, he leaps forward, by way of aspiration, to the various fruits of a holy life, and he makes efforts to attain the yet unattained, to find the yet unfound, to realize the yet unrealized."

"Give me an illustrated!"

"Suppose that a great cloud were to burst over a hill-slope. The water then would flow down the slope, would first fill all the hill's clefts, fissures, and gullies, and would then run into the river below, making its bank overflow on both sides. Now suppose further a great crowd of people had come along, and unable to size up either the width or the depth of the river, should stand frightened and hesitating on the bank. But then the some man would come along, who, conscious of his own strength and power, would firmly tie on his loin-cloth and jump across the river. And the great crowd of people, seeing him on the other side, would cross likewise. Even so the yogin, when he has seen that the hearts of others have been set free, leaps forward, by aspiration, to the various fruits of the holy life, and he makes efforts to attain the yet unattained, to find the yet unfound, to realise the yet unrealized. And this is what the Lord Buddha has said in the Samyutta Nikaya:

"By faith the flood is crossed,
By wakefulness the sea;
By vigour ill is passed;
By wisdom cleansed is he."

The king asked: "And what is the mark of vigour?"

"Vigour props up, and when propped up by vigour, all the wholesome dharmas do not dwindle away."

"Give me a simile!"

"If a man's house were falling down, he would prop it up with a new place of wood, and so supported, that house would not collaspe."

The king asked: "And what is the mark of mindfulness?"

"When mindfulness arises, one calls to mind the dharmas which participate in what is wholesome and unwholesome, blameable and blameless, inferior and sublime, dark and light, i.e. these are the four applications of mindfulness, there are the four applications of mindfulness, these are the four right efforts, these are the four roads to psychic power, these are the five cardinal virtues, these are the five powers, these are the seven limbs of enlightenment, this is the holy eightfold path, this is calm, this is insight, this is knowledge and this is emancipation. Thereafter, the yogin tends those dharmas which should be tended, and he does not tend those which should not be tended; he partakes of those dharmas which should be followed, and he does not partake of those which should not be followed. It is in this sense that calling to mind is a mark of mindfulness."

"Give me a simile!"

"It is like the treasurer of a universal monarch, who each morning and evening reminds his royal master of his magnificent assets: So many elephants you have, so many horses, so many chariots, so much infantry, so many gold coins, so much bullion, so much property; may your majesty bear in this mind! In this way he calls to mind his master's wealth."

"And how does mindfulness take up?"

"When mindfulness arises, the outcome of beneficial and harmful dharmas is examined in this way: These dharmas are beneficial, these harmful, these dharmas are helpful, these unhelpful. Thereafter, the yogin removes the harmful dharmas, and takes up the beneficial ones; he removes the unhelpful dharmas, and takes up the helpful ones. It is in this sense that mindfulness takes up."

"Give me a comparison!"

"It is like the invaluable adviser of a universal monarch who knows what is beneficial and what harmful to his royal master, what is helpful and what is unhelpful. Thereafter what is harmful and unhelpful can be removed, what is beneficial and helpful can be taken up."

The king asked: "And what is the mark of concentration?"

"It stands at the head. Whatever wholesome dharmas there may be, they all are headed by concentration, they bend towards concentration, lead to concentration, incline to concentration."

"Give me a comparison!"

"It is as with a building with a pointed roof: Whatever rafters they are, they all converge on the top, and bend towards the top, meet at the top, and the top occupies the most prominent place. So with concentration on relation to the other wholesome dharmas."

"Give me a further comparison!"

"If a king were to enter a battle with his fourfold army. then all his troops: The elephants, cavalry, chariots, and infantry, would be handed by him, and would be ranged around him. Such is the position of concentration in relation to the other wholesome dharmas."

The king then asked: "Then, what is the mark of wisdom?"

"Cutting off is, as I said before, one mark of wisdom. In addition, it illuminates."

"And how does wisdom illuminate?"

"When wisdom arises, it dispels the darkness of ignorance, generates the illumination of knowledge, sheds the light of cognition, and makes the holy truths stand out clearly. Thereafter the yogin, with his correct wisdom, can see impermanence, ill, and not self."

"Give me a comparison!"

"It is like a lamp which a man would take into a dark house. It would dispel the darkness, would illuminate, shed light, and make the forms in the house stand out clearly."

"Well put, Nagasena!"
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Problems of Nirvana

The king asked: "Is cessation Nirvana?"

"Yes, your majesty!"

"How is that, Nagasena?"

"All the foolish common people take delight in the senses and their objects, are impressed by them, are attached to them. In that way, they are carried away by the flood and are not set free from birth, old age and death, from grief, lamentation, pain, sadness, and despair - they are, I say, not set free from suffering. But the well-informed holy disciples do not take delight in the senses and their objects, are not impressed by them, are not attached to them, and in consequence their craving ceases; the cessation of craving leads successively to that of grasping, of becoming, of birth, of old age and death, of grief, lamentation, pain, sadness, and despair - that is to say, to the cessation of all this mass of ill. It is thus that cessation is Nirvana."

"Very good, Nagasena!"

The king asked: "Do all win Nirvana?"

"No, they do not. Only those win Nirvana who, progressing correctly, know by their super knowledge those dharmas which should be known by super knowledge, comprehend those dharmas which should be comprehended, forsake those dharmas which should be forsaken, develop those dharmas which should be developed, and realize those dharmas which should be realized."

"Very good, Nagasena!"

The king asked: "Do those who have not won Nirvana know how happy a state it is?"

"Yes, they do."

"But how can one know this about Nirvana without having attained it?"

"Now, what do you think, your majesty? Do those who have not had their hands and feet cut off know how hard it is to have them cut off?"

"Yes, they do."

"And how do they know it?"

"From hearing the sound of the lamentations of those whose hands and feet have been cut off."

"So it is by hearing the words of those who have seen Nirvana that one knows it to be comforted."

"Well said, Nagasena!"
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The Nature of Nirvana

King Milinda said: "I will grant you, Nagasena, that Nirvana is absolute ease, and that nevertheless one cannot point to its form or shape, its duration or size, either by simile or explanation, by reason or by argument. But is there perhaps some quality of Nirvana which it shares with other things, and which lends itself to a metaphorical explanation?"

"Its form, O King, cannot be elucidated by similes, but its qualities can."

"How good to hear that, Nagasena! Speak then, quickly, so that I may have an explanation of even one of the aspects of Nirvana! Appease the fever of my heart! Allay it with the cool sweet breezes of your words!"

"Nirvana shares one quality with the lotus, two with water, three with medicine, ten with space, three with the wishing jewel, and five with a mountain peak. As the lotus is unstained by water, so is Nirvana unstained by all the defilements. As cool water allays feverish heat, so also Nirvana is cool and allays the fever of all the passions. Moreover, as water removes the thirst of men and beasts who are exhausted, parched, and thirsty, and overpowered by heat, so also Nirvana removes the craving for sensuous enjoyments, the craving for further becoming, the craving for the cessation of becoming. As medicine protects from the torments of poisons, so Nirvana protects from the torments of the poisonous passions. Moreover, as medicine puts an end to sickness, so Nirvana puts an end to all sufferings. Finally, Nirvana and medicine both give security. And these are the ten qualities which Nirvana shares with space. Neither is born, grows old, dies, passes away, or is reborn; both are unconquerable, cannot be stolen, are unsupported, are roads respectively for birds and Arhats to journey on, are unobstructed and infinite. Like the wishing jewel, Nirvana grants all one can desire, brings joy, and sheds light. As a mountain peak is lofty and exalted, so is Nirvana. As a mountain peak is unshakeable, so is Nirvana. As a mountain is inaccessible, so is Nirvana inaccessible to all the passions. As no seeds can grow on a mountain peak, so the seeds of all the passions cannot grow in Nirvana. And finally, as a mountain peak is free from all desire to please or displease, so is Nirvana!"

"Well said, Nagasena! So it is, and as much I accept it."
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The Realization of Nirvana

King Milinda said: "In the world one can see things produced of karma, things produced from a cause, things produced by nature. Tell me, what in the world is not born of karma, or a cause, or of nature?"

"There are two such things, space and Nirvana."

"Do not, Nagasena, corrupt the Jina (Buddha)'s words, do not answer the question ignorantly!"

"What did I say, Your Majesty, that you speak thus to me?"

"What you said about space not being born of karma, or from a cause, or from nature, that was correct. But with many hundreds of arguments has the Lord Buddha proclaimed to His disciples the way to the realization of Nirvana, and then you say that Nirvana is not born of a cause!"

"It is true that the Lord has with many hundreds of arguments proclaimed to His disciples the way to the realization of Nirvana, but that does not mean that He has spoken of a cause for the production of Nirvana."

"Here, Nagasena, we do indeed enter from darkness into greater darkness, from a jungle into a deeper jungle, from a thicket into a denser thicket, in as much as we are given a cause for the realization of Nirvana, but no cause for the production of that same dharma (Nirvana). If there is a cause for the realization of Nirvana, we would also expect one for its production. If there is a son's father, one would for that reason also expect the father to have had a father; if there is a pupil's teacher, one would for that reason also expect the teacher to have had a teacher; if there is a seed for a sprout, one would for that reason also expect the seed to have had a seed. Just so, if there is cause for the realization of Nirvana, one would for that reason it must have also expect a cause for its production. If a tree or creeper has a top, then for that reason it must also have a middle and a root. Just so, if there is a cause for the realization of Nirvana, one would for that reason also expect a cause for its production."

"Nirvana, O King, is not something that should be produced. That is why no cause for its production has been proclaimed."

"Please, Nagasena, give me a reason, convince me by an argument, so that I can understand this point!"

"Well then, O King, attend carefully, listen closely and I will tell you the reason for this. Could a man with his natural strength go up from here to the Himalaya mountains?"

"Yes, he could."

"But could that man with his natural strength bring the Himalaya mountains here?"

"No, he could not."

"Just so, it is possible to point out the way to the realization of Nirvana, but impossible to show a cause for its production. Could a man, who with his natural strength has crossed in a boat over the great ocean, get to the farther shore?"

"Yes, he could."

"But could that man with his natural strength bring the farther shore of the great ocean shore here?"

"No, he could not."

"Just so, one can point out the way to the realization of Nirvana, but one cannot show a cause for its production. And what is the reason for that? Because that dharma (Nirvana) is unconditioned."

"Then, Nagasena, is Nirvana unconditioned?"

"So it is, O King, unconditioned is Nirvana, not made by anything. Of Nirvana one cannot say that it is produced, or unproduced, or that it should be produced; that it is past, or present, or future; or that one can become aware of it by the eye, or the ear, or the nose, or the tongue, or the body."

"In that case, Nagasena, you indicate Nirvana as a dharma which is not, and Nirvana does not exist."

"Nirvana is something which is recognizable by the mind. A holy disciple, who has followed the right road, sees Nirvana with a mind which is pure, sublime, straight, unimpeded and disinterested."

"But what then is that Nirvana like? Give me a simile, and convince me by arguments. For a dharma which exists can surely be illustrated by a simile!"

"Is there, Great King, something called wind?"

"Yes, there is such a thing."

"Please, will Your Majesty show me the wind, its colour and shape, and whether it is thin or thick, long or short?"

"One cannot point to the wind like that for the wind does not lend itself to being grasped with the hands, or to being untouched. But nevertheless there is such a thing called 'wind'."

"If one cannot point to the wind, one might concluded that there is no wind at all."

"But I know, Nagasena, that there is wind, I am quite convincted of it, in spite of the fact that I cannot point it out."

"Just so, Your Majesty, there is Nirvana, but one cannot point to Nirvana, either by its colour or its shape."

"Very good, Nagasena. Clear is the simile, convincing is the argument. So it is, and so I accept it: There is a Nirvana."
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The Arhats and their Bodies

The king asked: "Does someone who is no more reborn feel any unpleasant feelings?"

The elder replied: "Some he feels, and others not."

"Which one does he feel, and which one not?"

"He feels physical, but not any mental pain."

"How is that?"

"The causes and conditions which produce feelings of physical pain have not ceased to operate, whereas those which produce feelings of mental pain have. And so it has been said by the Lord Buddha: Only one kind of feelings he feels, physical, and not mental."

"And when he feels a physical pain, why does he not escape into Final Nirvana, by dying quickly?"

"An Arhat has no more likes or dislikes. Arhats do not shake down the unripe fruit, the wise wait for it to mature. And so it has been said by the elder Sariputra, the Dharma's General:

"It is not death, it is not life I cherish.
I bide my time, as a servant waiting for his wage.
It is not death, it is not life I cherish.
I bide my time, in mindfulness and wisdom steeped."
"Well put, Nagasena!"

The king asked: "Is the body dear to you recluses?"

"No, it is not."

"But then, why do you look after it, and cherish it so?"

"Has Your Majesty somewhere and at some time in the course of a battle been wounded by an arrow?"

"Yes, that has happened."

"In such cases, is not the wound anointed with salve, smeared with oil, and bandaged with fine linen?"

"Yes, so it is."

"Then, is this treatment a sign that the wound is dear to Your Majesty?"

"No, it is not dear to me, but all this is done to it so that the flesh may grow again."

"Just so the body is not dear to the recluses. Without being attached to the body they take care of it for the purpose of making a holy life possible. The Lord Buddha has compared the body to a wound, and so the recluses take care for the body as for a wound, without being attached to it. For the Lord Buddha said:

"A damp skin hides it,
But it is a wound,
Large with nine openings.
All around it ozzes impure
And evil smelling matter."

"Well answered, Nagasena!"

The king asked: "What is the difference between someone with greed and someone without greed?"

"The one is attached, the other unattached."

"What does that mean?"

"The one covets, the other does not."

"As I see it, the greedy person and the one who is free from greed both wish for agreeable food, and neither of them wishes for bad food."

"But the one who is not free from greed eats his food while experiencing both its taste and some greed for tastes; the one who is free from greed eats his food while experiencing its taste, but without having any greed for it."

"Very good, Nagasena!"

The king asked: "For what reason does the common worlding suffer both physical and mental pain?"

"Because his thought is so undeveloped. He is like a hungry and excited ox, who has been tied up with a weak, fragile and short piece of straw or creeper, and who, when agitated, rushes off, taking his tender with him. So, someone whose thought is undeveloped, gets agitated in his mind when a pain arises in him, and his agitated mind bends and contorts his body, and makes it writhe. Undeveloped in his mind, he trembles, shrieks, and cries with terror. This is reason why the common worlding suffers both physical and mental pain."

"And what is the reason why Arhats feel only one kind of feelings, physical and not mental?"

"The thought of the Arhats is developed, well developed, it is tamed, well tamed, it is obedient and disciplined. When invaded by a painful feeling, the Arhat firmly grasps at the idea of its impermanence, and ties his thought to the post of contemplation. And his thought, tied to the post of contemplation, does not tremble or shake, remains steadfast and undisturbed. But the disturbing influence of the pain, nevertheless, makes his body bend, contorts it, makes it writhe."

"That Nagasena, is indeed a most wonderful thing in this world, that someone's mind should remain unshaken when his body is shaken. Tell me the reason for that!"

"Suppose, Your Majesty, that there is a gigantic tree, with trunk, branches, and leaves. If it were hit by the force of the wind, its branches would shake, but would the trunk also shake?"

"No, Venerable Sir!"

"Just so the thought of the Arhat does not tremble or shake, like the trunk of the gigantic tree."

"Wonderful, Nagasena, most admireable, Nagasena!"
[^ Index]

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Conclusion


The king, as a result of his discussions with the Venerable Nagasena, was overjoyed and humbled. He saw the value in the Buddha's religion, gained confidence in the Triple Gem, lost his spikiness and obstinacy, gained faith in the qualities of the elder, in his observation of the monastic rules, his spiritual progress and his general demeanour; became trusting and resigned, free from conceit and arrogance. Like a cobra whose fangs have been drawn, he said: "Well said, well said, Nagasena! You have answered my questions, which would have given scope to a Buddha, you have answered them well! Apart from the elder Sariputra, the supreme General of the Dharma, there is no one in this religion of Buddha who can deal with questions as well as you do. Forgive my transgressions, Nagasena! May the Venerable Nagasena accept me as a lay-follower, as one who takes his refuge the Triple Gem from today onwards, as long as I shall live!"

---

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-v-awakening/37-models-of-the-stages-of-awakening/ditching-our-stuff-versus-ditching-the-split/

While these two models are stated implicitly earlier, I thought I would summarize them again to make sure that I have made this important point clear. There are models of awakening that involve getting rid of all of our “stuff”, that is, our issues, flaws, quirks, pains, negative emotions, traumas, personalities, cultural baggage, childhood scars, relationship difficulties, insecurities, fears, strange notions, illnesses, etc. Such models underlie most of the mainstream ideals of spiritual attainment. 
What is funny is that lots of people spend so much time working so hard to get rid of all their stuff but think that awakening, which is ditching the illusion of the separate self and the dualistic split, is largely unattainable. I have exactly the opposite view: that ditching the split is very attainable, but getting rid of all of our stuff while in this mammalian body is completely impossible. When I hear about those who wish to attain a type of Buddhahood that is defined by not having any stuff in any form, regardless of how it is perceived by them, I usually think to myself that the countless eons they usually claim are necessary to accomplish this are a gross underestimation. The real world is about stuff, and awakening is about the real world.

What is nice about ditching the split, aside from the fact that it can be done, is that now we can naturally, gently, be friends with our stuff, even if our stuff sucks. We can work with it as well as can be expected and from a place of great clarity and understanding. Stage by stage, ditching the split makes all the slow but necessary healing so much easier, or at least more tolerable and less miserable. Thus, take the time to work with your stuff, or try not to, as you like. Our stuff is here and being dealt with anyway. 

Try these two scenarios on for size and see which seems to fit with your life goals, with your vision of a life well-lived. In the first, imagine working with your stuff as best you can for most of your life, never really knowing what is just needless mind noise and mental duress caused by a lack of basic clarity. In your old age, you do the practices that lead to realization. The benefits of that level of understanding may then be used for yourself and others during the remaining years of your life.
In the second scenario, you take the time early in your spiritual practice to attain realization, following the precise instructions and recommendations of a well-developed insight tradition. You then use that level of increased clarity, acceptance, intimacy with life, and transcendence to work on your stuff and benefit others for the rest of your life. The second approach seems vastly superior to me, but my biases are a result of my own conditioning. Our conditioning, opportunity or lack thereof, and circumstance will have a strong impact on what happens. Still, from a relative point of view, take responsibility for the choice you make.

Scott Kiloby:



    Anonymous
    Jan 9, 2019, 2:17:00 PM
    What does it mean to live in the world selflessly?  It is even possible?  Desirable?

    In spiritual circles, the term selflessness can mean different things, depending on the context.  It can refer to living in service to others, the realization of “no self” similar to what Buddha realized or some other hybrid of those definitions or realizations.

    Let’s start with Webster’s dictionary for a simple definition:  selfless means “having no regard to self, unselfish.”  In that definition, there is a reference to being unselfish.  Selfish is defined as “caring supremely or unduly for one’s self, regarding one’s own comfort, advantage, in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others.”

    In Buddhism, the Visuddhimagga states:

    “Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found.
    The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there.
    Nibbaana is, but not the man that enters it.
    The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.
    Further:
    No doer of the deeds is found,
    No being that may reap their fruits.
    Empty phenomena roll on!
    This is the only right view.”

    The eight fold path in Buddhism refers to moral conduct, how one lives and acts in the world.  It is not limited to a realization that one has while sitting in meditation, a realization merely of the unfindability or unreality of the self.

    This is where modern nondual teachings often divorce themselves from the history of some of the great traditions, which were concerned with more than just a spiritual experience or realization.  They focused on selflessness as referring to living in the world in a less selfish way.

    Quite often, the reference to unselfishness is stripped away from the modern teachings, perhaps in part because of western culture’s infatuation with the idea of a one time, life-changing transformational fix, where one simply becomes fully enlightened or fully liberated in one fell swoop.  In the rush to experience this realization of no self, much of the wisdom of this other meaning of selflessness gets left behind.

    This is why we see teachers who claim, explicitly or implicitly, to be fully awakened while still being attached to their own image as a teacher or still attached to how they present themselves to others or even attached to fame, acknowledgment, attention, praise or some other worldly possession.

    Head awakening is the term I use to refer to the initial phase of nondual awakening where one experiences an absence of self, either as a sudden experience or gradual realization.  The focus is on how the self cannot be found when one looks.  In finding the emptiness of that self, there can be a sense of “I’m done, this is it, the final realization.”   And yet, because of how the mind and body (especially the body) hold tight to old conditioning, one is not truly done at all, unless one holds a very low standard in mind when it comes to selflessness.

    I have personally experienced attachment to self-image, worldly attainment and material possessions both before and after my head awakening.  I am not particularly ashamed of this because I find it to be a necessary aspect of “growing up” spiritually.  The first true dawning of a head awakening merely revealed that, from within and while looking from awareness, the self is not there.  But that is all that a head awakening really shows.  It’s in the movement of life, the every day living as an individual on earth, where the rubber meets the road.  To live selflessly, meaning to live in an unselfish way, is quite another endeavor completely.  A head awakening is merely the door that may or may not lead one towards living such a life – it is by no means a guarantee.

    Anonymous
    Jan 9, 2019, 2:23:00 PM


     The body has the final say.  Even after a head awakening, the body stores everything surrounding selfishness – possession, control, greed, addiction, anxiety, trauma, desire, fear, all of it.  To move through and leave behind these aspects of one’s self is a higher calling on the spiritual path.  To use an admittedly sexist phrase, it is what separates the men from the boys.

    Take, for example, the stomach, which I call the engine of ego.  Like any engine, it is a driving force.  It carries a pull towards earthly wants and desires, and a pull away from fearful threats.  This combination of wants and fears acts as the driving force behind the ego really.  This is where selfishness gets its fuel in large part.  To have experienced a head awakening, while having a stomach that is clenched like a fist, is to be led around the world in a very awkward and divided way – seeing that there is no self and yet being pulled into the somatic experience of the self’s desires and fears at the same time. This can be terribly painful and confusing.

    How does one live truly selflessly while the engine of the stomach is still yearning for the self’s desires and acting on the self’s fears?  I submit that it is virtually impossible – a fool’s game.

    Many teachings and programs that do not focus on nondual realization (including the 12 step program and many modern therapies) instead focus on cultivating a positive “selfless” self-image.  They often fail for an entirely different reason.  They are asking of human beings something that is quite impossible.  They are suggesting falsely that one can live in the world in a truly selfless way without doing the hard work, the deep looking, the body and trauma work and without seeing that there is no self even as a head awakening.  These positive self-help type teachings are proposing something they cannot bring about, because their aim misses the mark entirely.  Living selflessly is not a mindset.  It is not a switch that we can merely turn on or realize just be acting selflessly.  There really is no “fake it until you make it.”  The deeper selflessness does not truly come about through positive affirmations or only through selfless service.  There has to be an internal transformation on every level of the body and mind, or else the body will pull the individual back into selfish motives.  Even acting selflessly in the world can have selfish underpinnings, where one is helping others in order to gain something in return such as a positive self-image, praise, acknowledgement, attention, fame or love.

    And so, just as many modern nondual teachings fail to go deep enough because they stop at a head awakening, many other modern spiritual and therapeutic teachings (including life coaching) do not go deep enough for entirely different reasons.  They ignore true awakening altogether, in favor of an ego-based mindset or programming.

    Where does that leave us?  Are we left with half-baked notions of true selflessness as something unattainable, like a dream we are always chasing?  I don’t believe so, not if we change how we examine the whole notion of self.  There will be some who are not interested in going as deep as they can go. They will be content to stop somewhere along the way, at the stage of a nondual head awakening or within a positive self-help program.  That is their right!   But the calling to true selflessness will appear for some people.  So the question is, “How?”

    Here’s an exercise which may help:

    Anonymous
    Jan 9, 2019, 2:25:00 PM


    Start by getting very quiet.  Look from awareness out into the world.  Notice that the world is made up of thoughts, emotions and sensations.  Then begin to imagine the world without you.  Whenever you see a want or fear that is truly ego-based, witness the thoughts and feelings around it.  Let them be as they are until they naturally and effortlessly vanish.  An ego-based want is any want where you are trying to get something personally in return.  An ego-based fear is a fear that is not based on physical survival but rather on survival of a certain image you have of yourself in the mind. Let all of that vanish, each thought and emotion, one at a time.  See what is left.  Where does your attention go after all those fears and wants have vanished.  Do you find yourself wanting to help others without anything in return?  Do you find yourself at peace with life?  If not, notice what is happening in your stomach.  Notice the pull towards worldly things, attention, praise, acknowledgment.  Let that pull be felt and let it vanish into space.  What is left?  When you get to the point where selfish wants and fears have subsided, open your eyes and start your day.  Notice where those ego-based wants and fears return.  And when they do, love them to death.  This means let them come fully into awareness and dissolve naturally without effort.  And then just live from that place.  See where life takes you.  It is likely to take you down a completely different path, with different values, perspectives and priorities.  Do this every day of your life!  Recognize that the fruits of living selflessly have nothing to do with you.  You get nothing in return.  This is what makes it selflessness.

    I first began this practice when I left the teaching world and opened up the Kiloby Center.  Many people come to the Kiloby Center without knowing who I am.  They do not come to praise the teacher because they don’t see me as a teacher.  In leaving behind the satsang world, I was left to question the remaining attachments to many different worldly possessions and self-images.  Then I took a position with a company that works entirely within the addiction treatment field, a company that does not have my name on the front door.  In that company, I am working within a team of people who do not recognize me as enlightened or as a teacher.  More and more, I feel that I am working within the addiction treatment field without bolstering the name Scott Kiloby, without bolstering “me.”  The deeper questions around selflessness naturally arise in this scenario.   I encourage every teacher to leave behind the teaching world for a while and ask these important questions – do this important self-investigation.  I encourage it for everyone, teacher or not.  There is still work for me to do in this area.  Selflessness is not a game of being done.  It is an ongoing exploration.

    Imagine living a life where you do not resign yourself just to some positive affirmations, programmed mindset or selfless service.  Imagine a life where you do not consider a head awakening as the final realization.  Imagine living a life where true selflessness is your aim.  You get to watch yourself fall short of it over and over, which just shows you the ego-based wants and fears.  They are all there to examine. But falling short does not have to be a game of fruitlessly seeking some future version of yourself.  That would be yet another ego game.   There is no seeking in this.  There is only the pure creativity of living more and more without self.  Doors naturally open in this way of being, doors that you never knew were there.  Walls that you didn’t realize were creating division in your life break down.  This is what allows your creativity to shine.

    Anonymous
    Jan 9, 2019, 2:27:00 PM


    This is more than just a seeing also.  It is not about having an experience on a meditation mat and then starting a blog or becoming a teacher or having others think that you are enlightened because of a fancy Facebook post.  That’s the stuff of head awakening.  It is much, much more humble than that.  It calls upon you to go deeper into your own life, however that shows up.  It is a living, in every sense.  Not just a new mental perspective, but a perspective in which your entire body and mind is transformed, in which every relationship feels and looks different.  In this living, you do not discard the notion of individuality.  Your individuality shines forth even brighter than before.  It is your selfishness that is increasingly missing.  These are two different things altogether.

    In this examination, you are not living in the spotlight.  You are not getting anything in return.  As your ego-based wants and fears increasingly vanish, you begin to feel more attuned to a deeper calling in life.  You finally get to see what it is that you really want to