The nondual state: Better than Psychedelics or Sex

Soh Wei Yu

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How to be blissful and happy all the time without external stimulus: have a nondual awakening.




happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com
Which is more pleasurable...psychedelics, the nondual state, or sex?
Q. How does the nondual state compare to sex? How does the nondual state compare to psychedelics? Does sex affect the nondual state...

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Soh Wei Yu
How I came across this:
Recently I had an exchange of sorts with a number of spiritual teachers, I sent them the AtR links and see what their responses are. Most teachers are appreciative, and usually they send me some of their own links and I read up on them to find out more. 
 
Gary Weber told me that there is much that is very similar to his work and that I might enjoy my talk "The End of Suffering and the Default Mode Network" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX1IFUDNtto&feature=youtu.be ) for a scientific approach to awakening with lots of citations and papers.

In it he mentioned something about his research and comparison between meditators, nondual and psychedelics, and how nondual people have an even better state than those on psychedelics.
So I went to search up on that. Another link: http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/.../magic...
The End of Suffering and the Default Mode Network
YOUTUBE.COM
The End of Suffering and the Default Mode Network
The End of Suffering and the Default Mode Network
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    I wrote this years ago - This is not an exaggeration at all:
    Why awakening is so worth it
    From time to time, people ask me why should they seek awakening. I say, awakening will be the best thing that happen in your life, I guarantee it. It is worth whatever effort you put into it. You won't regret it. Or as Daniel M. Ingram said, "Would I trade this for anything? Maybe world peace, but I would have to think about it. Until then, this totally rocks, and missing out on it would be barking crazy from my point of view."
    What is it like? I can only give a little preview, an excerpt of what I wrote taken from the AtR guide:
    "Personally, I can say from direct experience that direct realization is completely direct, immediate, and non-intellectual, it is the most direct and intimate taste of reality beyond the realm of imagination. It far exceeds one’s expectations and is far superior to anything the mind can ever imagine or dream of. It is utter freedom. Can you imagine living every moment in purity and perfection without effort, where grasping at identity does not take hold, where there is not a trace or sense of 'I' as a seer, feeler, thinker, doer, be-er/being, an agent, a 'self' entity residing inside the body somewhere relating to an outside world, and what shines forth and stands out in the absence of a 'self' is a very marvellous, wondrous, vivid, alive world that is full of intense vividness, joy, clarity, vitality, and an intelligence that is operating as every spontaneous action (there is no sense of being a doer), where any bodily actions, speech and thoughts are just as spontaneous as heart beating, fingernails growing, birds singing, air moving gently, breath flowing, sun shining - there is no distinction between ‘you are doing action’/’you are living’ and ‘action is being done to you’/’you are being lived’ (as there is simply no ‘you’ and ‘it’ - only total and boundless spontaneous presencing).
    This is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions, where every color, sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless directness without separation, where life and the universe is experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. - William Blake)
    You know all the Mahayana Sutras (e.g. Vimalakirti Sutra), old Zen talks about seeing this very earth as pure land and all the Vajrayana talks about the point of tantra as the pure vision of seeing this very world, body, speech and mind in its primordial unfabricated purity as the Buddha field, palace, mandala, mantra and deity? Now you truly get it, you realise everything is really just like that when experienced in its primordial purity and perfection, and that the old sages have not been exaggerating at all. It is as much a literal and precise description of the state of consciousness as it is a metaphor. As I told John Tan before, Amitabha Sutra’s description of pure land resembles my living experience here and now. “To me it just means anatta. When what’s seen, tasted, touched, smelled are in clean purity, everywhere is pure land.” - John Tan, 2019. "If one is free from background self, all manifestations appear in clean purity in taste. Impurities from what I know come from mental constructions." – John Tan, 2020
    This is a freedom that is free from any artificially constructed boundaries and limitations. And yet, this boundlessness does not in any way lead to the dissociation from one’s body, instead one feels more alive than ever as one’s very body, one grows ever more somatic, at home and intimate as one’s body. This is not a body normally conceived of, as the boundaries of an artificially solidified body that stands separated from the universe, dissolve into energetic streams of aliveness dancing and pulsating throughout the body in high energy and pleasure, as well as sensations of foot steps, movement, palm touching an object, where the body is no longer conflated with a constructed boundary of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’, ‘self’ or ‘other’, where no trace of an ‘inside’ and an ‘outside’ can be found in one’s state of consciousness - there’s only one indivisible, boundless and measureless world/mind - only this infinitude of a dynamic and seamlessly interconnected dance that we call ‘the universe’. This is better than any passing peak experiences be they arisen spontaneously, in meditation or through the use of psychedelic substances. And yet, despite experiencing life to it fullest every moment without any veils, in complete openness and utter nakedness, nothing gains a foothold in consciousness, for as vivid as they are, they leave no trace just as a bird leaves no tracks in the sky, an empty and lucid display such as a gust of wind and the glittery reflections of moon on the ocean waves - appearing but nothing ‘there’ or anywhere. All these words and descriptions I just wrote came very easily and spontaneously in a very short time as I am simply describing my current state of experience that is experienced every moment. I am not being poetic here but simply being as direct and clear as possible about what is immediately experienced. And this is only a figment that I am describing. If I were to tell you more of what this is like, you would not believe it. But once you enter this gateless realm you shall see that words always pale in comparison."
    Labels: Anatta |
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    • Yin Ling
    Agree. Don’t need even bliss, just reduce suffering is already bliss.
    It’s Probably the only way or method that works to drop my suffering
    • Yin Ling
    Btw soh the link doesn’t work on my phone somehow
    Which is more pleasurable...psychedelics, the nondual state, or sex?
    HAPPINESSBEYONDTHOUGHT.BLOGSPOT.COM
    Which is more pleasurable...psychedelics, the nondual state, or sex?
    Which is more pleasurable...psychedelics, the nondual state, or sex?
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Yin Ling oh you are right. Cannot view from phone only pc.
    • Which is more pleasurable...psychedelics, the nondual state, or sex?
    HAPPINESSBEYONDTHOUGHT.BLOGSPOT.COM
    Which is more pleasurable...psychedelics, the nondual state, or sex?
    Which is more pleasurable...psychedelics, the nondual state, or sex?
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    I remember John Tan once made a similar comparison, but instead I would say nondual presence is even better, rather than just similar - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../transcript-with...
    "John: I had an experience when I was 17. That time when I experienced the I AMness, then I AM Everything. At that time I very much wanted to become a monk. When I first experienced, it lasted for many days, not just (hours?) Then when it rained, I suddenly strip off all my clothes, then I go out and get drenched, and kept laughing and smiling. Because I think I am everything – I like being (dripped) by the rain. Then I thought, if there is a waterfall, I can just sit there and how nice that will be! Then I saw a dog, I really wanted to go and touch it. That was when I was 17 years old, suddenly I had this ? intoxicated. So when the bond of the consciousness is being released, (?). Then when I meditate, you will not believe the kind of bliss that I undergo. That kind of intoxication, it is just like taking drugs. "
    Transcript with Thusness 2012 - Group Gathering
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Transcript with Thusness 2012 - Group Gathering
    Transcript with Thusness 2012 - Group Gathering
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Also even if psychedelics provide some people (that is not the path I went through, John Tan and I reached I AM through self enquiry) a glimpse of I AM, it will not be able to bring them into deeper insights like anatta or emptiness which is even more crucial. In any case taking psychedelics for spiritual purposes is not a path I recommend, self enquiry and meditation is better IMO. But for psychological and other healing purposes, then if the state or country (some countries do allow) allows, like even in Singapore which everyone knows is a hardcore anti-drug country, even here we just legalized the psychedelic/dissociative Ketamine for treatment of serious depression last year, in such cases I believe it can be very beneficial.
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  • Yin Ling
    Soh Wei Yu yea. Actually until now I still have this “like taking drugs” feelings whenever I meditate or even in daily life if ppl leave me alone(they don’t thankfullly) I will just meditate day and night 😂
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  • Joe Pardue
    I agree with Daniel Ingram that perpetual bliss models of awakening are unrealistic at best. Impermanence will always come and knock us back down to reality and suffering again at some point, even with the arising of non-dual wisdom. Much more realistic to hope for reduced mental suffering and anxiety than for total elimination of all negative or painful emotions forever imo.
    I'd be very skeptical of anyone who claims to be in a bliss state 24/7 365 days a year. I'd think they were trying to sell me something. Just not the way reality works unfortunately, even for enlightened people.
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    • The Incredible Bliss of Anatta
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Incredible Bliss of Anatta
    The Incredible Bliss of Anatta
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Total removal of all suffering is also possible but you must reach arahant stage. Or eighth bhumi or buddha
    • Joe Pardue
    Soh Wei Yu Oh I know that anatta, emptiness, the non-dual wisdom of suchness - those realizations bring unimaginable feelings of peace. I've had those experiences, levels of bliss I never thought possible. But no bliss state remains forever. Why? It just goes back to impermanence.
    The teachings are fundamentally built on impermanence. Understanding the fact of impermanence is part and parcel of understanding emptiness. From a metaphysical standpoint, no impermanence = no emptiness. So to throw that out at some point and just say "No, now permanence IS possible, because we can be happy and blissful 24/7" is a huge contradiction. This is also addressed well by Ingram in MCTB.
    It's the same problem that he brings up when talking about the emotional perfection models. The false idea that somehow enlightenment will make one completely morally pure and perfect and never able to do anything bad again. Well we know that's not true just by looking at all the supposedly enlightened masters who have done horrible things to others in their personal lives. Perfection in any sense, emotionally, psychologically, morally, is imo a misguided goal.
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    • Joe Pardue
    Soh Wei Yu Eh, I don't buy that that's possible even if you reach that level. Again, look at all the masters who've had high realization who did terrible things from a moral standpoint. Some of them were definitely Arhats. Sogyal Rinpoche? Hurting others usually comes from one's one emotional pain in some sense. What about Trungpa? Reading his books, he certainly seems like he had high realization, probably an Arhat, but he wasn't exactly a model human being, and sure seems like he suffered a lot.
    So do you then not believe Daniel Ingram when he says he's an Arhat?
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Joe Pardue sogyal rinpoche is definitely Not an arahat, in fact not even a sotapanna in my books. I only saw him describe I Am and possible nondual experience but not anatta insight.
    I have also expressed my skepticism about Trungpa, i doubt he even reached stream entry. He described no mind experience but not anatta realisation
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    • [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
    [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Joe Pardue john tan told me this year to make the above thread to the top of the reading list in our blog.
    It clarifies much misunderstandings.
    • Soh Wei Yu
    It is rare even among masters to realise anatta
    Even though to realise anatta is also not an end
    “Though buddha nature is plainness and most direct, these are still the steps. If one does not know the process and said ‘yes this is it’… then it is extremely misleading. For 99 percent [of ‘realized’/’enlightened’ persons] what one is talking about is "I AMness", and has not gone beyond permanence, still thinking [of] permanence, formless… ...all and almost all will think of it along the line of "I AMness", all are like the grandchildren of "AMness", and that is the root cause of duality.” - John Tan, 2007
    • Joe Pardue
    Soh Wei Yu My point is that having insight into the nature of reality does not change the fundamental fact that every experience, whether blissful or suffering, is temporary. Since even enlightened people still live on the level of the relative, all of their experiences, good or bad, will be transitory, as will the experiences of ordinary people.
    To believe that there is a possible permanent, unchanging state of being that can be attained in any sense is to go directly against the Buddha's foundational teaching of impermanence, which is at the very core of the dharma.
    And my other point is that having insight into the nature of reality does *not* make one perfect in any way - morally, psychologically or otherwise. I know that because I have personally had deep insights and I am in no way perfect.
    And it isn't just that if I had more insights I would be perfect, or if I trained or practiced and meditated more then I would be perfect at some point. None of us can ever achieve complete perfection because of the fact that life moves in cycles and, again, everything changes.
    We make mistakes, we fail, then we succeed, then we fail again. Just like Summer changes to fall and fall changes to Winter and Winter changes back to Spring. We don't control that process of cycling because we *are* the process. That's why mental suffering can never be completely removed. Whatever bliss we might be experiencing will cycle and transform back to suffering at some point.
    Even enlightened people who have seen directly into dharmata, suchness, with the light of non-conceptual wisdom are still subject to this impermanence simply because they still live in the relative world where change is a brute, unavoidable fact.
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Realizations and attainments are permanent: they permanently put an end to fetters and tendencies.
    For example, stream entry puts an end to the first three fetters permanently. This is why realization is not an experience.
    • SUTTACENTRAL.NET
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    suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway
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    • Joe Pardue
    Soh Wei Yu Nope, you can't get away with saying that without denying impermanence, and thus undermining a core tenet of the teachings. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
    Even if you are talking about permanent realizations, that still d…
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    • Geovani Geo
    Joe Pardue, that is purely theoretical. I mean "theoretical" in an impersonal way. The thing is that you are imagining an enlightened dude and eventual events that could happen to him. These are all images in a mind.
    • Soh Wei Yu
    You fail to understand something: impermanence only applies to conditioned phenomena.
    Impermanence does not apply to cessation, which is an unconditioned phenomena (although also empty).
    Nirvana (cessation) is not impermanent. It is however unreal and a mere designation.
    Also I wrote this on reddit two months ago:
    Anatta, unlike the other two seals, covers both conditioned and unconditioned phenomena such as cessation or unbinding [nirvana]. (The three marks are: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā — "all saṅkhāras (conditioned things) are impermanent" sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā — "all saṅkhāras are unsatisfactory" sabbe dhammā anattā — "all dharmas (conditioned or unconditioned things) are not self" https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwji_JSwlMb3AhXCmuYKHdlvBUkQFnoECAwQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThree_marks_of_existence&usg=AOvVaw0zJ_UvB957Jv1sHHe5M8-V )
    Three marks of existence - Wikipedia
    EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
    Three marks of existence - Wikipedia
    Three marks of existence - Wikipedia
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    • Joe Pardue
    Geovani Geo It's not really theoretical, the point is to show that realization is in no way permanent because there are things that could happen to reverse those realizations even if they did occur.
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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Also Daniel agrees with me that awakening is about the permanent end of something (the illusion of self), not about an experience. I will see if I can find what he said when I get home.
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    • Joe Pardue
    Soh Wei Yu The absolute is always approached through the relative/conventional. You know this. Dharmadhatu is cognized through non-dual wisdom/rigpa, which is itself relative. It is the nature of an *appearance* which is known to be suchness (the "ultimate"). All this also implies an agent on the relative level who is doing the cognizing/abiding in non-dual wisdom.
    All of this - non dual wisdom, the appearance which is being cognized, and the agent which is doing the cognizing, are relative (and ultimately empty) phenomena. Being empty, all of them are impermanent and conditioned.
    Nibbana may not be conditioned, but the relative agent who knows Nibbana is completely conditioned, impermanent, and transitory in every way. And since the agent only approaches or knows Nibbana through his or her Wisdom, and since that Wisdom is conditioned and impermanent, it cannot be so that that person can possibly remain permanently in an unchanging state of non-dual equipoise.
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    • Geovani Geo
    Joe Pardue, "realization" as a state must be impermanent. But, just as an exercise of imagination: can space be ended?
    • Joe Pardue
    Geovani Geo Are you referring to the basic spaciousness of phenomena in their "real" nature beyond elaboration and concepts?
    • Geovani Geo
    Joe Pardue, Yes. For space is just an analogy.
    • Joe Pardue
    Geovani Geo Well I would say no then, as phenomena in their basic spaciousness, as Dharmadhatu, are beyond the four extremes of existence, non-existence, both or neither, so to talk about anything ending or not ending ultimately doesn't make sense.
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    • Geovani Geo
    Joe Pardue. Yes. Also, as I see it, the same with permanent and not permanent. And the "space" of the analogy is inert while the underlying meaning is not. What this "not" could mean? Lucid? Aware? Open and receptive like Lao Tzu's "spirit of the valley"?
    • Geovani Geo
    So, when we regard the meaning of "enlightened person" one must be careful to not conceptualize. Enlightenment and Dharmkaya are the same.
    • Joe Pardue
    Geovani Geo We have to distinguish between the ultimate and the relative levels of things. As I see it, the relative world of appearances, or the world of impermanence, still retains it's validity even after one has seen the ultimate.
    If the entire path, which takes places on the relative level, were realized to be a cognitive error upon seeing the ultimate beyond fabrications, what incentive would the Buddha have had to teach after his awakening?
    If the relative did not retain it's validity after one's seeing the ultimate, then to talk of only being able to approach the ultimate through the relative, as is asserted by Nagarjuna and many other masters, would be nonsensical.
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    • Geovani Geo
    Joe Pardue, of course the relative it maintains its validity. Nonetheless, its interesting how we visualize such "approaching the ultimate through the relative". We eventually see it as something getting closer to some other. But that is not the case at all - imo. As I see it, in fact, the relative stops making noises, stops claiming that it is other then the ultimate. It is the claims that stop, no? Also, not that the relative comes to see the ultimate, but there is the realization that the claims where conceptual clouds seemingly obstructing the seeing - not specifically a seeing of the relative. Such seeing is entity-less. I don't know.... maybe you (or others) see it otherwise.
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    • Yin Ling
    Saw this on my newsfeed, just gonna say one or two words.
    U seem to be closing ur door to a place where complete liberation is possible.
    Realisation is a permanent shift in perception. It is not a myth for me.
    Suffering can drop. Massively.
    But no one can convince u, not even the buddha himself.
    It’s up to u to work hard and find out. 🙂 hope u don’t close ur doors too early. Just a light comment, I don’t want to debate. 🙂
    • Soh Wei Yu
    Well said.
    Also I was just reminded of an explanation by Kyle Dixon, I liked it including Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's analogy.
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    krodha
    ·
    3 yr. ago
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    edited 3 yr. ago
    Nirvana is a species of cessation, and is defined as a total cessation of cause for rebirth in the three realms. Once the cause of affliction is exhausted there is no longer a means for it to re-arise, hence buddhahood is irreversible and permanent.
    Nirvāṇa is the total exhaustion of one's ignorance regarding the nature of phenomena, and for that reason nirvāṇa is described as a cessation. What ceases is the cause for the further arising and proliferation of delusion regarding the nature of phenomena, which is precisely the cessation of cause for the arising of the cyclical round of rebirth in the three realms we call "saṃsāra."
    For this reason, nirvāṇa is said to be 'permanent', because due to the exhaustion of cause for the further proliferation of saṃsāra, saṃsāra no longer has any way to arise.
    Tsele Natsok Rangdrol:
    You might ask, 'Why wouldn't confusion reoccur as before, after... [liberation has occured]?" This is because no basis [foundation] exists for its re-arising. Samantabhadra's liberation into the basis [wisdom] itself and the yogi liberated through practicing the path are both devoid of any basis [foundation] for reverting back to becoming a cause, just like a person who has recovered from a plague or the fruit of the se tree.
    He then states that the se tree is a particular tree which is poisonous to touch, causing blisters and swelling. However once recovered, one is then immune.
    Lopon Tenzin Namdak also explains this principle of immunity:
    Anyone who follows the teachings of the Buddhas will most likely attain results and purify negative karmic causes. Then that person will be like a man who has caught smallpox in the past; he will never catch it again because he is immune. The sickness of samsara will never come back. And this is the purpose of following the teachings.
    and from Lopon Kunga Namdrol:
    Buddhahood is a subtractive process; it means removing, gradually, obscurations of affliction and obscurations of knowledge. Since wisdom burns these obscurations away, in the end they have no causes for returning; and further, the causes for buddhahood are permanent leading to a permanent result.
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    unkeptzen
    ·
    3 yr. ago
    Nirvana is a species of cessation
    I guess you could say that nirvana is the cessation of conditionality which reveals the unconditioned.
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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    krodha
    ·
    3 yr. ago
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    edited 3 yr. ago
    "I guess you could say that nirvana is the cessation of conditionality which reveals the unconditioned."
    Nirvana is defined as pratisaṃkhyā-nirodha or “analytical cessation.” Which is the total cessation of cause for rebirth in the three realms.
    As for “unconditioned,” there is an unconditioned nature of so-called conditioned existents, specifically; that they are figments of ignorance and are therefore non-arisen and free from extremes. But there is no "the unconditioned" as a stand-alone separate capacity.
    From Nāgārjuna:
    Since arising, abiding and perishing are not established, the conditioned is not established; since the conditioned is never established, how can the unconditioned be established?
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    unkeptzen
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    3 yr. ago
    I would just add that in the Pali discourses the only dhamma that is unconditioned is nibbāna (nirvana). All other dhammas are conditioned.
    Also to help you on your journey, Zen Ma-tsu says:
    The conditioned is the function of the unconditioned; the unconditioned is the essence of the conditioned.
    Both the Buddha and Jesus understood that the universe and everything in it, even our thoughts, are only the "shape of spirit" (shape being conditioned; spirit being unconditioned). But the shape hides the spirit if one is not, personally, awakened to the spirit. God too is spirit (Jhn 4:24). For those of us who have meditated in deep forests and in caves, setting the books aside, the unconditioned has to be personally witnessed. Peace to you pandita
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    krodha
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    3 yr. ago
    "I would just add that in the Pali discourses the only dhamma that is unconditioned is nibbāna (nirvana). All other dhammas are conditioned."
    In Mahāyāna there are three unconditioned dharmas, which are space and two forms of cessation, nirvana is one of those cessations.
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    • Cheng Chen
    I’ve known about Gary Weber’s work for a while, but didn’t know he was still active. Soh Wei Yu you’re in touch with him? Is he still putting out content?
    Soh Wei Yu
    Cheng Chen Only just one e-mail. I spam the 7 stages and On Anatta, Emptiness article to all the spiritual teachers in the world 🤣🤣🤣
    • Soh Wei Yu
    Even Eckhart Tolle thanked me too. 😂
    • Soh Wei Yu
    Gary's latest blog post seem to be in 2018 https://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/
    happinessbeyondthought
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    Difference Between Thusness Stage 4 and 5

     Also see: 


    Soh wrote


    Hi Mr B, 


    Thanks for the links. I enjoyed reading your descriptions.


    The awareness as nothing is what we would call the I AM realization, a crucial realisation but not the end, as you know.


    The awareness as everything is nondual realization. However there is a distinction between stage 4 and stage 5 realizations, they are not the same. In Stage 5, there is clear realization that 'Awareness' is just name-only and not intrinsically existing by its own side like 'weather' and verbs, and even verbs are name only and not self-established. Just like there is no wind besides blowing, wind implies or is just another name for blowing, blowing implies wind, lightning implies flash and is not an agent behind or besides or producing flash but is synonymous with flash, weather is none other than a label for rain falling wind blowing clouds forming and so on and not some reality on its own that can be found, awareness too is just a label and none other than the whole display and process. There is no inherent existence to awareness of its own. Everything is luminous, vivid presence in dynamic manifestation. Or the Bahiya Sutta that led to my insight in October 2010, that hearing is merely sound, never a hearing existing on its own apart from sound, nor is there a hearer. In seeing, seeing is merely colors, never was there a seeing or seer besides self-luminous colors. Same goes for all senses including thought. 'Awareness' cannot be found besides manifestation, it has no intrinsic existence of its own as a background or even a source/substratum that is 'inseparable' from manifestation.


    Stage 4 is instead like an unchanging space of awareness, or a mirror, that is nonetheless 'inseparable' from the changing dynamic display occuring in or as that unchanging source and substratum of manifestation. This is substantialist nondualism based on an essence view. But when the inherent view of a subject, agent, and inherently existing awareness is seen through in stage 5, that view would be dropped and seen as delusory as the notion that there is an unchanging wind being inseparable from blowing, or an unchanging lightning being inseparable or modulating as flash. 


    I wrote this for someone else just a few days ago on the phase 5 insight:

     

     

    “That which remains as that which is aware is not a problem, the problem is if that which is aware is reified into an independently or inherently existing source and substratum behind appearance, which turns into a view of dualism and inherency.

     

    In truth, a quarter is 25 cents, 25 cents is simply a quarter. Quarter is not “one with” 25 cents but simply another name for the same “entity” of 25 cents. Hearing is only sound, never was there a hearer or a hearing besides sound. It is not hearing becoming one with sound, or hearing is inseparable with sound, but rather hearing is just a name for sound. In seeing, seeing is merely colors, never was there a seer or seeing besides self luminous colors. Not seer or seeing becoming one with colors or inseparable with colors, seeing is just another name for colors. This is the bahiya sutta that arose for me in october 2010.

     

    Awareness likewise, is just a name like river or wind (as thich nhat hanh explained), being is another name for becoming, and so on. No nouns, just verbs, and verbs too are name only and not self-established. Then one no longer mistakes “that which is aware” to be something changeless, independent, self-established or intrinsically existing by its own side. That does not mean we negate or deny “that which is aware”, just like we do not deny “a quarter”, we simply no longer mistaken the name-only “a quarter” as referencing a real self existing entity besides “25 cents”. We no longer mistaken “weather” for anything besides the raining, wetting, wind blowing, lightning and so on, we no longer mistaken awareness as anything besides manifestation.

     

    This leads to realization and actualization of awareness as the entire activity without subsuming subject into object or object into subject, but by releasing subject and object on spot through piercing through reifications.

     

    The pure sense of existence even when all five senses are shut and concepts vanish is just another occurrence, another manifestation. It is not the source and or background behind manifestation.

     

     

    …..

     

     

    …being is also none other than becoming.

    I like what Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh said here (he’s the most famous Buddhist master right after the Dalai Lama, and he just passed away this year unfortunately):

     

    Excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/10/sun-of-awareness-and-river-of.html


    "When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'."

    "..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming...."

    "In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."

    ---------------- Comments by Thusness/PasserBy: "...as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent Origination perspective."

     

     

    .............

     

     

    Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh:

    "When we say it's raining, we mean that raining is taking place. You don't need someone up above to perform the raining. It's not that there is the rain, and there is the one who causes the rain to fall. In fact, when you say the rain is falling, it's very funny, because if it weren't falling, it wouldn't be rain. In our way of speaking, we're used to having a subject and a verb. That's why we need the word "it" when we say, "it rains." "It" is the subject, the one who makes the rain possible. But, looking deeply, we don't need a "rainer," we just need the rain. Raining and the rain are the same. The formations of birds and the birds are the same -- there's no "self," no boss involved. 


    There's a mental formation called vitarka, "initial thought." When we use the verb "to think" in English, we need a subject of the verb: I think, you think, he thinks. But, really, you don't need a subject for a thought to be produced. Thinking without a thinker -- it's absolutely possible. To think is to think about something. To perceive is to perceive something. The perceiver and the perceived object that is perceived are one.


    When Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am," his point was that if I think, there must be an "I" for thinking to be possible. When he made the declaration "I think," he believed that he could demonstrate that the "I" exists. We have the strong habit or believing in a self. But, observing very deeply, we can see that a thought does not need a thinker to be possible. There is no thinker behind the thinking -- there is just the thinking; that's enough. 


    Now, if Mr. Descartes were here, we might ask him, "Monsieur Descartes, you say, 'You think, therefore you are.' But what are you? You are your thinking. Thinking -- that's enough. Thinking manifests without the need of a self behind it."


    Thinking without a thinker. Feeling without a feeler. What is our anger without our 'self'? This is the object of our meditation. All the fifty-one mental formations take place and manifest without a self behind them arranging for this to appear, and then for that to appear. Our mind consciousness is in the habit of basing itself on the idea of self, on manas. But we can meditate to be more aware of our store consciousness, where we keep the seeds of all those mental formations that are not currently manifesting in our mind. 


    When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed. This is what we call transformation. In the Buddhist tradition, transformation is possible with deep understanding. The moment the vision of no-self is there, manas, the elusive notion of 'I am,' disintegrates, and we find ourselves enjoying, in this very moment, freedom and happiness."

     “

     

    ....




    The following link goes into some of the differences, it is good to read through the whole article for a clearer understanding but I will paste short excerpts below:


    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/09/difference-between-thusness-stage-4-and.html


    Partial excerpts:



    "15/4/13 12:53:28 AM: John Tan: Anatta is a realization that there isn't a consciousness besides sound, scenery...etc

    15/4/13 12:56:15 AM: John Tan: U c through reification of that agent and get in touch with the base manifestation  where the label rely upon

    15/4/13 12:57:02 AM: John Tan: So sound is the actual consciousness is referring to

    15/4/13 12:57:36 AM: John Tan: There is no consciousness other than that


    15/4/13 1:01:13 AM: John Tan: When they see through reification, then phenomena has a different meaning

    15/4/13 1:02:04 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as awareness is not one mind

    15/4/13 1:02:52 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as the same unchanging mind is the problem

    15/4/13 1:04:09 AM: John Tan: When u c through reification, u realized "awareness" is just a label point to these manifestations

    15/4/13 1:04:32 AM: John Tan: So there is nothing wrong saying that

    15/4/13 1:05:24 AM: John Tan: Only when we treat awareness to b of true existence then we r deluded because there isn't any

    15/4/13 1:11:14 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..

    15/4/13 1:11:36 AM: John Tan: In hearing, there is only sound

    15/4/13 1:11:57 AM: John Tan: Hearing implies the presence of sound


    14/5/13 9:39:15 PM: John Tan: One mind is different

    14/5/13 9:40:04 PM: John Tan: One mind as I told u is the witness is gone but subsume into an overarching Awareness

    14/5/13 9:40:31 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Is there a distinct phase of one mind in your seven stages?

    14/5/13 9:40:48 PM: John Tan: Phase 4

    14/5/13 9:41:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But u said phase 4 u already realised anatta and experience no mind?

    14/5/13 9:41:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So does that mean the insight already arise by tendency to sink back to one mind is still there

    14/5/13 9:42:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But

    14/5/13 9:42:17 PM: John Tan: All such gray area is put onto phase 4 insight when view isn't completely clear

    14/5/13 9:42:44 PM: John Tan: There is no way to describe the grey scale

    14/5/13 9:43:24 PM: John Tan: Even in anatta there r so many different degree of refinements

    14/5/13 9:43:34 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see

    14/5/13 9:43:59 PM: John Tan: But it is not practical to talk abt all

    14/5/13 9:44:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. U mean not describable

    14/5/13 9:45:32 PM: John Tan: No...not that it is not describable but not practical to describe

    14/5/13 9:46:48 PM: John Tan: Like AF is part of the deviation looking into purely physical flesh and blood of pure experience ... Some went into details some does not

    14/5/13 9:47:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What do u mean by went into details

    14/5/13 9:48:54 PM: John Tan: It is like I M, there r all those experiences u undergone but I do not say they r diff phases



    14/4/13 7:35:01 PM: John Tan: When u say "weather", does weather exist?

    14/4/13 7:35:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No

    14/4/13 7:35:42 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's a convention imputed on a seamless activity

    14/4/13 7:35:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Existence and non existence don't apply

    14/4/13 7:36:02 PM: John Tan: What is the basis where this label rely on

    14/4/13 7:36:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Rain clouds wind etc

    14/4/13 7:36:25 PM: John Tan: Don't talk prasanga

    14/4/13 7:36:36 PM: John Tan: Directly see

    14/4/13 7:38:11 PM: John Tan: Rain too is a label

    14/4/13 7:39:10 PM: John Tan: But in direct experience, there is no issue but when probed, u realized how one is confused abt the reification from language

    14/4/13 7:39:52 PM: John Tan: And from there life/death/creation/cessation arise

    14/4/13 7:40:06 PM: John Tan: And whole lots of attachment

    14/4/13 7:40:25 PM: John Tan: But it does not mean there is no basis...get it?

    14/4/13 7:40:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: The basis is just the experience right

    14/4/13 7:41:15 PM: John Tan: Yes which is plain and simple

    14/4/13 7:41:50 PM: John Tan: When we say the weather is windy

    14/4/13 7:42:04 PM: John Tan: Feel the wind, the blowing...

    14/4/13 7:43:04 PM: John Tan: But when we look at language and mistaken verb for nouns there r big issues

    14/4/13 7:43:22 PM: John Tan: So before we talk abt this and that

    14/4/13 7:43:40 PM: John Tan: Understand what consciousness is and awareness is

    14/4/13 7:43:45 PM: John Tan: Get it?

    14/4/13 7:44:40 PM: John Tan: When we say weather, feel the sunshine, the wind, the rain

    14/4/13 7:44:58 PM: John Tan: U do not search for weather

    14/4/13 7:45:04 PM: John Tan: Get it?

    14/4/13 7:45:57 PM: John Tan: Similarly, when we say awareness, look into scenery, sound, tactile sensations, scents and thoughts



    "(11:27 PM) Thusness: and see how one expresses these insights

    (11:27 PM) AEN: oic..

    (11:28 PM) Thusness: like joan tollifson

    it is the direct experience

    there is no view about it

    (11:28 PM) AEN: icic..

    (11:30 PM) Thusness: means a practitioner will only experience hardness, softness, intentions, scenery, sound

    no self

    (11:30 PM) Thusness: action

    directly

    (11:31 PM) Thusness: but conventionally, u r still u, i am still me

    (11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no such thing as u r me

    get it?

    (11:32 PM) Thusness: or there is an awareness that is sound

    or all is just this awareness

    there is no such concept

    (11:32 PM) AEN: oic..

    (11:33 PM) Thusness: there is sound, sight, thoughts

    (11:33 PM) Thusness: and what u call awareness are just that"


    "ession Start: Saturday, March 14, 2009


    (11:50 PM) AEN:    'Nevertheless it is a very key phase'

    u mean very important key phase?

    (11:51 PM) Thusness:    yeah

    (11:52 PM) AEN:    icic..

    btw wats the difference between stage 4 and 5 other than stabilizing non dual

    (11:54 PM) Thusness:    u need to face the problem to know

    it is not in words

    (11:55 PM) Thusness:    because u have not experienced non-division

    (11:55 PM) Thusness:    so u do not know what is non divison

    (11:55 PM) Thusness:    what is no-doership and what is no agent in experience

    (11:56 PM) Thusness:    and it is difficult to know what is that 'marks' that prevent the experience of spontaneity

    (11:56 PM) AEN:    oic..

    (11:58 PM) Thusness:    there is a difference seeing thinker/thoughts as one

    (11:58 PM) Thusness:    and hearer/sound as one

    then sound is awareness, no hearer

    (11:58 PM) Thusness:    stage 4 is more like hearer/sound as one

    (11:59 PM) Thusness:    that is why i said one thought, then another thought

    just like u, u said u feel like an open space

    (11:59 PM) Thusness:    then u hear sound

    sound and awareness seem to be one

    (11:59 PM) AEN:    oic..

    (12:00 AM) Thusness:    indistinguishable but u cannot have that experience that there is only sound

    only in logic u have but not in experience

    (12:00 AM) Thusness:    until one day u mature that experience

    (12:01 AM) AEN:    icic..

    just now i saw a website from truthz's blog lists

    i mean not truthz's blog but the blog link appeared in his

    (12:02 AM) AEN:    http://buddhaspace.blogspot.com/

    Correct Understanding - the first of the eight aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path - arises out of noticing the impermanent, unsatisfactory, and impersonal nature of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and tactile objects. When all these phenomena are realized to be not self, the mind will turn inwards, seeking out what it might cling to as ‘me’. But if it looks with absolute clarity it will find emptiness. Behind sensations, feelings, thoughts, and consciousness, there lies clear, endless space. I sometimes call it ‘Buddha Space’.

    (12:05 AM) Thusness:    yeah

    that is wrong view.

    (12:05 AM) AEN:    oic..

    (12:06 AM) Thusness:    it is very difficult to see the truth of this until our insight matures

    even at stage 4, it can be difficult but it is already the first steps towards anatta

    (12:06 AM) AEN:    difficult to what

    see anatta?

    (12:06 AM) Thusness:    yeah

    (12:06 AM) AEN:    oic

    (12:07 AM) Thusness:    u must see the no agent

    not only no division

    (12:07 AM) Thusness:    like i told u there are 3 stages

    (12:08 AM) Thusness:    later into just this non-dual luminosity

    (12:09 AM) Thusness:    if u ask non-dualists, they will not realise that they are an arising thought

    (12:09 AM) Thusness:    like what jeff foster said

    (12:09 AM) AEN:    oic..

    (12:10 AM) Thusness:    they will feel damn ultimate

    (12:10 AM) AEN:    ic..

    like brahman

    (12:11 AM) Thusness:    yes so they see self

    not events, process phenomena

    (12:12 AM) AEN:    oic..

    (12:12 AM) Thusness:    they see brahman, not sunyata

    (12:12 AM) Thusness:    even the experiences are very similar

    the insight has not matured into anatta"


    "2008:


    (11:46 PM) Thusness:    Does ken (Ken Wilber) talk about anatta

    (11:46 PM) AEN:    no

    (11:47 PM) Thusness:    Or Advaita sort of understanding

    (11:47 PM) AEN:    advaita (Ken Wilber is at Thusness Stage 4)

    (11:47 PM) Thusness:    Then y u kept asking me.

    (11:47 PM) Thusness:    What is anatta?

    (11:48 PM) AEN:    ya but wat i mean is nondual experience is not as in stage 2 type of passing experience, but as everpresent reality?

    (11:48 PM) AEN:    anatta is no agent and dependent origination?

    (11:48 PM) Thusness:    Didn't I tell u understanding non-dual experience as verb. (Soh: refer to my article The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the Wind)

    (11:48 PM) AEN:    icic

    (11:49 PM) Thusness:    Not an entity that is independent and unchanging?

    (11:49 PM) AEN:    but ken wilber say "You are that, and there is no you – just this entire luminous display spontaneously arising moment to moment. The separate self is nowhere to be found."

    (11:50 PM) AEN:    *oic

    (11:50 PM) Thusness:    Non-dual experience is there is clarity of no separation (As in Thusness Stage 4)

    (11:51 PM) Thusness:    Stage 2 is there is merging

    (11:51 PM) Thusness:    As if I dissolved and merge..

    (11:51 PM) AEN:    icic..

    (11:52 PM) Thusness:    There r two, dual

    (11:52 PM) AEN:    oic..

    (11:52 PM) Thusness:    Non-dual is there never was a separation

    (11:52 PM) Thusness:    No split

    (11:53 PM) AEN:    icic..

    (11:53 PM) Thusness:    There is no separate I.

    (11:53 PM) AEN:    oic..

    (11:53 PM) Thusness:    But this awareness is still very much constant, permanent and unchanging

    (11:54 PM) AEN:    icic..

    (11:54 PM) Thusness:    Anatta goes further and understand exactly what is non-dual experience

    (11:55 PM) Thusness:    This is a break-through in insight

    (11:55 PM) AEN:    oic..

    (11:55 PM) AEN:    its about discerning it as DO?

    (11:55 PM) Thusness:    There is thinking, no thinker

    (11:55 PM) AEN:    icic

    (11:55 PM) Thusness:    Seen no seer

    (11:56 PM) Thusness:    Sound no hearer

    (11:56 PM) AEN:    oic

    (11:56 PM) Thusness:    Understood becoming no being

    (11:56 PM) AEN:    icic..

    (11:57 PM) Thusness:    Understand that object@

    (11:57 PM) AEN:    wat u mean

    (11:59 PM) Thusness:    Object/subject is the result of compartmentizing 'verb'

    (11:59 PM) Thusness:    Action

    (11:59 PM) AEN:    icic..

    (11:59 PM) Thusness:    Thinking becomes thinker and thoughts

    (11:59 PM) Thusness:    That is anatta

    (12:00 AM) Thusness:    It is the direct experience that there is no thinker, just thoughts

    (12:01 AM) Thusness:    In seeing, always only the seen."



    Another very good article by Andre A. Pais clarifies: 


    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/11/beyond-awareness.html


    I think Andre clarifies the distinction between 1, 4 and 5 really well. (Not so much 6 but he got into it in the following years)


    In fact, once you read this, it can be hard to see how anyone who has read this can still be unable to distinguish between stage 4 and 5. I think Andre made it very clear.






    Also, stage 6 is not a re statement of stage 3. It is a very different realisation. In short, while 5 is the emptiness of a subjective self, 6 pertains to the dependently origination and emptiness/unfindability of a real essence in phenomena.


    And as to the nature of this prajna/gnosis/wisdom of emptiness, my dharma friend with similar realisations Kyle Dixon wrote:

     

    "Raw awareness is called vijñāna in unrealized sentient beings, which is dualistic and comprised of a threefold division of sensory faculty [eye], sense function [sight] and sensory object [visual appearances].

     

    In everyday people, even if conceptualization is absent, vijñāna is still experienced as dualistic because we feel we remain in an internal reference point and that objects are “over there” at a distance.

     

    Through practice however we have the opportunity to experientially realize emptiness, and when emptiness is realized, vijñāna reverts to its natural state as jñāna. Jñāna is a non-dual modality of cognition where the inner reference point and external objects are realized to be false."

     

    "Selflessness means there is ultimately no actual subject, which means there is no actual internal reference point that is apprehending sensory phenomena.

     

    In describing this simply it means through your practice you will hopefully, eventually, awaken to recognize that there is no actual seer of sights, no hearer of sounds, and so on. The feeling of an internal seer or hearer, etc., is a useful but false construct that is created and fortified by various causes and conditions.

     

    We suffer when we cling to this construct and think it is actually real. Recognition of the actual nature of that construct is liberating and freeing."


    “According to Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna there are two obscurations that prevent us from fully knowing the nature of phenomena. The first is called the afflictive obscuration, which is the fetter of an internal subjective reference point that the self is attributed to, and the second is called the cognitive obscuration, which is everything else that stands apart from our deluded sense of self, so all objects; persons, places, things.

    For some reason these obscurations can be uprooted at different times.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021



    There is more to Stage 6 but I think this much will suffice for now.. but if you wish to read more you can refer to http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/journey-from-anatta-to-emptiness.html and http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/emptiness-non-arising.html . 


    Thank you for your sharing and have a nice day ahead!


    Cheers

    Soh

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