These conversations took place before I (Soh) even had the I AM realization which happened in February 2010.

 

Session Start: Thursday, March 06, 2008

 

(11:44 PM) AEN:              when the 'me' drops completely then it feels like everything is there but you dont exist rite... like fusing into everything but there is no center... yesterday i tried and pretended to be dead... like 'i' died, but rather than losing consciousness its like i fuse into surrounding, awareness as 'forms' become stronger.. but then v quickly the sense of 'i' comes back like something in the head

(11:45 PM) Thusness:    not bad but not good enough

(11:45 PM) AEN:              icic

(11:45 PM) AEN:              ya cos the propensity is strong, like v fast comes back

(11:46 PM) Thusness:    the glimpse is there but the clarity isn't

(11:47 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:48 PM) Thusness:    like 1&2

(11:48 PM) AEN:              wat 1&2?

(11:48 PM) Thusness:    but yet there is no vividness of experiences of stage 1&2

(11:48 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:49 PM) Thusness:    but at least u hv some experience

(11:50 PM) AEN:              but its like v hard to sustain unless there is complete dropping.. i guess i need to meditate more...

(11:51 PM) AEN:              but its not 'i amness' mah btw

(11:51 PM) Thusness:    yes but ur dropping is still not there ... u hv to go through life experiences & get honed

(11:52 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:53 PM) Thusness:    it is still 'I Amness'

(11:53 PM) Thusness:    Read what I said to spwn07

(11:56 PM) AEN:             

 

3.         The experience can be further divided into the followings:

 

 

 

3.1       A strong individual sense of identity         

 

 

 

3.2       An oceanic experience free from conceptualization.

 

This is due to the practitioner freeing himself from conceptuality, from labels and symbols.  The mind continuous disassociates itself from all labeling and symbols.

 

 

 

3.3       An oceanic experience dissolving into everything.

 

The period of non-conceptuality is prolonged.  Long enough to dissolve the mind/body ‘symbolic’ bond and therefore inner and outer division is temporarily suspended.

(11:57 PM) Thusness:    yes

(11:57 PM) Thusness:    u r going through these 3 phases

(11:57 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:58 PM) Thusness:    but the depth & clarity of experiences r not there yet

(11:59 PM) AEN:              ya

(11:59 PM) Thusness:    even then it is still not non-dual, anatta & emptiness

(11:59 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:59 PM) Thusness:    still at 'i m' level

(12:00 AM) Thusness:    I told u that u will be hving these 2 experiences soon

(12:00 AM) AEN:             y is it 'i am'

(12:00 AM) AEN:             its just a stage rite

(12:01 AM) Thusness:    what u experienced is luminosity

(12:01 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:01 AM) Thusness:    continue dropping

(12:01 AM) AEN:             ok

(12:02 AM) Thusness:    & do summary of whatever I said about non-dual

(12:02 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:02 AM) Thusness:    but u r on the right track

(12:03 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:03 AM) Thusness:    u must dare to drop & sheh

(12:04 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:04 AM) Thusness:    u hv gone into not 'thoughts'

(12:04 AM) AEN:             u mean thoughtlessness?

(12:04 AM) Thusness:    but vividness of luminosity

(12:05 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:06 AM) Thusness:    that is there is no thought, no I, no personality sort of experience

(12:06 AM) Thusness:    but this time it is vividness of phenomenon

(12:06 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:06 AM) Thusness:    however there is no insight

(12:07 AM) AEN:             ya

(12:08 AM) Thusness:    so u know what I meant abt 'I AMness' as thought realm?

(12:08 AM) Thusness:    and as everything fuse into it

(12:08 AM) Thusness:    stage 1 & 2?

(12:09 AM) AEN:             i know the fusing part but wat u mean by thought realm

(12:09 AM) AEN:             thought realm is more like last time i mentioned the experience?

(12:09 AM) Thusness:    just imagine these 2 experiences r prolonged

(12:09 AM) Thusness:    yes

(12:09 AM) AEN:             oic but they are not the same experience rite

(12:09 AM) Thusness:    yeah

(12:10 AM) AEN:             icic

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    one is a pure sense of existence

(12:10 AM) AEN:             ya

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    but there is no vividness of form

(12:11 AM) AEN:             icic.. yea

(12:11 AM) Thusness:    the other is losing the sense of 'I' & fuses into everything

(12:11 AM) AEN:             ya

(12:12 AM) Thusness:    so u know what I meant by stage 1-2?

(12:12 AM) Thusness:    then there is a block

(12:12 AM) AEN:             yea

(12:12 AM) Thusness:    like '' 'I' is the block

(12:13 AM) Thusness:    that is stage 3

(12:13 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:14 AM) Thusness:    imagine u can profound the experiences & prolonged it.  Then that is stage 1&2

(12:14 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:15 AM) Thusness:    but at least there is progress & u will know what I meant

(12:15 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:16 AM) AEN:             ya tink so

(12:18 AM) AEN:             i tink u told me yesterday about something like death and whether its scary or wat... then i tried and pretended that 'i' died and then fused as everything. actually is blissful.. lol

(12:18 AM) Thusness:    just read & summarized whatever I said about anatta

(12:19 AM) AEN:             icic.. ok

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    u must learn to drop, to sheh

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    then u progress & understand more

(12:19 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:20 AM) Thusness:    u cannot understand through thinking alone

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    u need to realize step by step & know that there is nothing to fear

(12:21 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    u know more through each elimination

(12:22 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:22 AM) Thusness:    till u really want & dare complete death

(12:22 AM) Thusness:    like natural progression

(12:22 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:23 AM) Thusness:    but now just practice dropping

(12:23 AM) Thusness:    mind & body drop

(12:24 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:24 AM) Thusness:    but summarize what I said about anatta, not emptiness

(12:24 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:24 AM) Thusness:    ur condition is not there yet

(12:25 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:25 AM) Thusness:    it can take 20yrs without proper guidance

(12:26 AM) AEN:             oic.. guidance like leading one to proper insights of anatta and emptiness?

(12:26 AM) Thusness:    but that is the 'jue' ur master want u to experience

(12:26 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:26 AM) Thusness:    just hv to prolong it.

(12:26 AM) AEN:             icic..

 

(1:12 AM) AEN: ooh

(1:13 AM) AEN: ok i click join ah

(1:16 AM) AEN: oops! wrong window

 

Session Start: Friday, March 07, 2008

 

(11:53 PM) AEN:              wah u back home so fast?

(11:53 PM) AEN:              lol

(11:53 PM) AEN:              btw eckhart tolle admitted trying LSD last time

(11:54 PM) AEN:              lol jonls also admitted trying LSD last time

(11:54 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(11:54 PM) Thusness:    is it?

(11:54 PM) Thusness:    ahahaha

(11:54 PM) Thusness:    i din.

(11:54 PM) Thusness:    :)

(11:54 PM) AEN:              https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnow-for-you.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D3662&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ks3sHcSonj%2FvMtfg2%2Bz2nlAuhThKHV4TMktVr2sBo5k%3D&reserved=0

(11:54 PM) AEN:              hahaha

(11:54 PM) Thusness:    u dun have to.

(11:54 PM) AEN:              wah u v fast

(11:54 PM) AEN:              hmm ya

(11:55 PM) Thusness:    u just have to drop

(11:55 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:55 PM) Thusness:    u will experience that clarity

(11:55 PM) Thusness:    with deeper insight and understanding

(11:55 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:01 AM) AEN:             ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR “A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE’S PURPOSE”): Well,

later on, people tell me, they ask me is that like acid. Because some people take acid and they say oh we experienced that when we took acid, they told me many times. Until finally, I’ll tell you in confidence, finally I tried acid just for once.

 

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): You're telling me in confidence here?

 

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR “A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE’S PURPOSE”): Yes.

 

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Okay, good.

(12:01 AM) AEN:             he said 'confidence' but actually he is speaking to half a million ppl worldwide on webcast, i tink he forgot.. LOL

(12:05 AM) Thusness:    in confidential u mean

(12:05 AM) AEN:             ya lol

(12:05 AM) Thusness:    :)

 

Session Start: Monday, March 10, 2008

 

(6:24 PM) Thusness:      The book is so so only.  More pilosophical than practical. :P

(6:24 PM) Thusness:      But I bought another book, "Cultivating the Empty Field".  Think it is good. :)

(6:25 PM) Thusness:      Don't buy open secret unless u want to go into philosophy.

(6:25 PM) Thusness:      LOL

(6:36 PM) Thusness:      ur reply is not very good.

(6:36 PM) Thusness:      Just bring him to the awareness that he is in stage 1.

(6:39 PM) Thusness:      Until this sentence "You are beginning to experience the 'AMness'"  is enough.  The rest is not important and confusing at this point in time.

:)

(6:47 PM) AEN: back

(6:47 PM) AEN: oic

(6:48 PM) Thusness:      slowly tell him about stage 1-2 first.

(6:49 PM) Thusness:      1 is to have a direct glimpse of awareness yet still being affected by the propensity of 'I'.

(6:50 PM) Thusness:      stage 2 is an experience of its relationship of phenomena and still having the propensity.

(6:50 PM) Thusness:      first these 2.

(6:51 PM) Thusness:      As long as u caution him that it is not it, it is okie.

(6:51 PM) AEN: oic..

(6:52 PM) AEN: oh no! the posting period has expired :P

(6:52 PM) AEN: cannot edit liao

(6:52 PM) AEN: esangha only allows editing up to 2 hours i tink

(6:52 PM) Thusness:      ahahah...okie.

(6:52 PM) AEN: then how

(6:52 PM) AEN: i clarify in another post

(6:52 PM) AEN: ?

(6:52 PM) Thusness:      just let it be.

(6:53 PM) Thusness:      no need

(6:53 PM) Thusness:      see what he replies first.

(6:53 PM) AEN: icic

(6:55 PM) AEN: wats Cultivating the Empty Field about

(6:55 PM) Thusness:      it is a zen book.

(6:55 PM) Thusness:      quite good.

(6:55 PM) Thusness:      but mainly poetic.

(6:55 PM) Thusness:      :)

(6:56 PM) Thusness:      not many are able to explain step by step like buddha on something so transcendental.

(6:57 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:30 PM) AEN: added:

(7:30 PM) AEN: Maybe the teaching of No-Self, non-duality, emptiness may be a little confusing for you now. Just have to know that what you are experiencing is Stage 1 of my friend's 6 stages, https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fawakeningtoreality.blogspot.com%2F200...experience.html&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5I7RqwmFbRNxMHLR%2FBxvuHyfFkYM%2BjfxpVrRDYV2JWc%3D&reserved=0 .

 

The experience is characterised by a pure sense of existence, or as you described a vast, oceanic, all-pervading 'energy'. Stage 1 is like having direct glimpse of awareness yet still being affected by the propensity of 'I'. But this experience lacks the 'vividness' of form.

 

Stage 2 is an experience of its relationship of phenomena and still having the propensity. This experience comes when the period of non-conceptuality is prolonged. Long enough to dissolve the mind/body 'symbolic' bond and therefore inner and outer division is temporarily suspended.

 

That is one experiences a kind of death of being a separate self, and fuses into everything, experiences everything as 'Consciousness'. But the propensity (to perceive 'self' and duality) is still there, and this becomes merely a stage that has entry and exit unlike when there is true insight int

(7:30 PM) AEN: true insight into non-duality.

 

And then stage 3 is the 'block' that prevents recapturing the experience, the 'block' is seen to be the 'self'. So one practices deep meditation trying to dissolve the self to recapture the experience. But the true nature of awareness is not understood.

 

Both experiences (Stage 1 & 2) are not it, so do not be mistaken that the 'I AM' is Buddha-nature.

(7:50 PM) Thusness:      LOL

(7:50 PM) Thusness:      no need to write too much.

(7:50 PM) AEN: lol

(7:51 PM) Thusness:      just wait for his reply.

(7:52 PM) AEN: oic

 

 

Session Start: Tuesday, March 11, 2008

 

(2:56 AM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffftv-buddhistgeeks.s3.amazonaws.com%2FEpisode061_Buddhist_Magic.mp3&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=f3IOUCUKbmfcplVjB0%2BxUXeGA7wRCfUoKL092uckETI%3D&reserved=0 -- dharma dan talks about supernatural powers

(2:58 AM) AEN: dharma dan say u cant have supernatural powers without developing insights into interconnectedness of things and running into classic insights etc

(2:58 AM) AEN: as in u wld develope insights from it

(3:04 AM) AEN: wah he discuss his supernatural powers.. :P

(3:04 AM) AEN: nub wld be realy interested

(3:04 AM) AEN: hahahaha

(8:49 AM) Thusness:      so early?

(8:49 AM) Thusness:      :)

(8:49 AM) Thusness:      Actually it is about visualisation of strong colors and 'sheh' that give rise to psychic powers.

(8:50 AM) AEN: yea i was also thinking about that

(8:50 AM) AEN: tats y tantric focus so much on visualisation rite

(8:50 AM) AEN: anyway u said last time u practiced visualisation isnt it

(9:14 AM) Thusness:      yes

(9:14 AM) AEN: oic.. taoist practices?

(9:15 AM) Thusness:      yeah but not like vajrayana so intense.

(9:15 AM) Thusness:      i got to go now.

(9:15 AM) AEN: oic..

(9:15 AM) AEN: ok cya

(9:22 AM) AEN: eckhart teaching body mindfulness

(9:39 AM) AEN: alot on vipassana like seeing a tree without perception or any sense perception

 

Session Start: Tuesday, March 11, 2008

 

(7:08 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:08 PM) Thusness:      But u must understand the right view and the wrong view.

(7:08 PM) Thusness:      what is anatta and what is DO.

(7:09 PM) Thusness:      when we stop at non-duality according to the Advaita and Vedanta side, there is the 'essence'.

(7:09 PM) Thusness:      the 'IT'

(7:09 PM) Thusness:      it is the dualistic propensities of understanding non-duality.

(7:10 PM) Thusness:      therefore one cannot understand correctly anatta and emptiness.

(7:10 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:10 PM) Thusness:      If right view is not important, we might as well stop at "I AMness".

(7:10 PM) Thusness:      Why the need to understand the observer is the observed.

(7:10 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:11 PM) Thusness:      Right understanding is to bring us further and Buddhism points out the fundamental problem of wrongly understanding Reality and Awareness.

(7:11 PM) Thusness:      Seeing 'Self', 'Entity', Unchanging Essence is a distorted view of experience.

(7:12 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:22 PM) Thusness:      optomistic replied u.

(7:23 PM) AEN: yea i pasted to u juts now

(7:23 PM) Thusness:      I din received it.

(7:24 PM) AEN: oic

(7:24 PM) AEN: so u saw his msg?

(7:24 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(7:25 PM) AEN: oic

(7:25 PM) AEN: tats stage 2 rite

(7:26 PM) Thusness:      It is common for that 1 leads to 2.

(7:26 PM) Thusness:      But the clarity of what is 1 and what is 2 must be there.

(7:26 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:26 PM) AEN: so his experience is 1 leading to 2?

(7:26 PM) AEN: clarity as in wat

(7:27 PM) Thusness:      as in what is stage 1 and what is stage 2.

(7:27 PM) AEN: icic

(7:27 PM) AEN: so his experience is like 1 leading to 2?

(7:27 PM) Thusness:      it will take some time.

(7:28 PM) Thusness:      But like what he said, it is the 'terms' used in the description of the experience.

(7:28 PM) Thusness:      He is not sure.

(7:29 PM) Thusness:      It is common for someone to get used to the terms used in describing these experiences.

(7:29 PM) Thusness:      it will take some time.

(7:29 PM) Thusness:      Presence is a term used for longchen and jonls.

(7:29 PM) Thusness:      Because ET also used that term.

(7:29 PM) Thusness:      So do most New Age groups.

(7:29 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:30 PM) Thusness:      In Dzogchen it is commonly used too.

(7:30 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:30 PM) Thusness:      but in Buddhism, it may not sound right.

(7:30 PM) Thusness:      But because ur explanation is not clear and is unable to bring out the essence of what he experiences, he is not sure.

(7:31 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:31 PM) AEN: so how to explain

(7:31 PM) Thusness:      there is no how to explain lah

(7:31 PM) AEN: huh y.. can explain one mah

(7:33 PM) Thusness:      everyone's experience is different.

(7:33 PM) Thusness:      it is not a formula...how many times must I tell u.

(7:33 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:33 PM) Thusness:      Since he already know that he needs a teacher, it is better for him to look for an experienced teacher.

(7:34 PM) Thusness:      Only one that has gone through these process knows how to guide him.

(7:34 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:42 PM) Thusness:      His conditions are already there for refining the experience of "I am everything".

(7:43 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:43 PM) Thusness:      Just a simple question that I asked Spdwn07 will do.

(7:43 PM) AEN: oic what qn

(7:43 PM) Thusness:      the one that I asked spdwn07.

(7:45 PM) AEN:

“Without using any languages, ‘I’, ‘me’ or any signs or symbols, how is ‘I’ experienced?”

(7:45 PM) AEN: ?

(7:45 PM) Thusness:      Just say that u have casually sent his question to a friend.  I think this question will help him deepen his insight of stage 2. :)

(7:46 PM) Thusness:      and say hope that helps. :)

(7:46 PM) AEN: icic.. ok

(7:46 PM) Thusness:      As short as possible but do caution him as what i have cautioned spdwn07.

(7:47 PM) AEN: cautioned him?

(7:47 PM) Thusness:      I wrote in the same post.

(7:47 PM) AEN:

 

The experience for 3.2 and 3.3 are transcendental and are precious.  However these experiences are commonly misinterpreted and distorted by objectifying these experiences into an entity that is “ultimate, changeless and independent”.  The objectified experience is known as Atman, God or Buddha Nature by  the speaker in the videos.  It is known as the experience of “I AM” with differing degree of intensity of non-conceptuality.  Usually practitioners that have experienced 3.2 and 3.3 find it difficult to accept the doctrine of Anatta and Emptiness.  The experiences are too clear, real and blissful to discard.  They are overwhelmed.

 

 

 

Before we go further, why do you think these experiences are distorted?

(7:47 PM) Thusness:      no need...

(7:47 PM) Thusness:      what is the url?

(7:48 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbuddhism.sgforums.com%2Fusers%2F97367%2Fposts&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=BmRNSdlviZ81lxI2Er%2B35bkqOH6pYH5XoWCT1HAjjH0%3D&reserved=0

(7:48 PM) AEN: oops

(7:48 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbuddhism.sgforums.com%2Fforums%2F1728%2Ftopics%2F306388&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mbg0Iso6XCxgsU0ckjvMVNxxDbYQI1c9DHTX%2Fo0nwBI%3D&reserved=0

(7:50 PM) Thusness:      “Without using any languages, ‘I’, ‘me’ or any signs or symbols, how is ‘I’ experienced?”

 

Of all teachings, no teaching is more important then a direct ‘touch’ of our Buddha essence; but of all dangers, none is more dangerous than misinterpreting our essence after the ‘touch’.

 

The ‘touch’ of the pure sense of existence is often wrongly understood due to our karmic tendencies.

(7:50 PM) Thusness:      Use the doctrine of Anatta and Emptiness as antidote after the 'touch'.

 

(7:56 PM) Thusness:      I have casually sent ur question to a friend.  He thinks the question below will help u deepen ur insight.  Nothing intense.

(7:56 PM) Thusness:      “Without using any languages, ‘I’, ‘me’ or any signs or symbols, how is ‘I’ experienced?”

 

Of all teachings, no teaching is more important then a direct ‘touch’ of our Buddha essence; but of all dangers, none is more dangerous than misinterpreting our essence after the ‘touch’.

 

The ‘touch’ of the pure sense of existence is often wrongly understood due to our karmic tendencies.

(7:57 PM) AEN: ohh your qn is refering to the qn in his post?

(7:57 PM) AEN: lol i tot wat.. so confusing

(7:57 PM) Thusness:      yes

(8:02 PM) AEN: posted

(8:02 PM) Thusness:      hope that helps. :)

(8:02 PM) Thusness:      anyway the question will help him.

(8:03 PM) AEN: ok added

(8:03 PM) AEN: icic

(8:03 PM) AEN: how come?

(8:03 PM) AEN: bcos of letting go of self and symbols?

(8:03 PM) Thusness:      no

(8:04 PM) Thusness:      because his conditions require this question to break through.

(8:04 PM) Thusness:      depends on his yuan now lah.

(8:05 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:05 PM) AEN: how is this qn different from the self inquiry qn he was asking himself'

(8:06 PM) Thusness:      ai yoh...u won't understand now lah

(8:06 PM) Thusness:      see what he replies first.

(8:06 PM) Thusness:      if it doesn't help...then bo bian. :P

(8:06 PM) AEN: icic..

 

(8:32 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sacred-texts.com%2Fbud%2Ftib%2Ftantra.htm&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MAnP3TlJy5O1MEZRbOVOeIAYhvZaeg8OWZNX0UZEPvA%3D&reserved=0

(8:36 PM) AEN: oic

(8:36 PM) AEN: wat u tink about his description of emptiness:

(8:36 PM) AEN: R.  I am not sure I understand what you mean by public and private

non-realities. Are the images, energies, and beings worked with in the

practices real or not? Could you elaborate on that bit?

 

P.  The basis of all this lies in an understanding of Dharmakaya and

sunyata, "the realm of essence" and "emptiness". The Dharmakaya is not

a place or even a state of being or consciousness. Dharmakaya is the

field of pure potential, which is exploding into actualized energy and

matter at every moment. Each object or thing, even in its "thingness",

is still in essence characterized by this field of potentiality. In

other words, each "thing" is empty of permanent characteristics; its

characteristics share the quality of pure dynamic potentiality and are

always tending towards the expression of that potential via constant

change and transformation.

   All worlds and fields of perception explode from this pure

potentiality, which is also pure awareness or emptiness. This essence,

this emptiness, is unspeakable and is not any thing at all. And yet it

is the dynamic matrix from which all of this (

(8:36 PM) AEN: (waving his arm about the

room) arises, and of which all of this is a presentation, and into

which all this returns.

   This explosion of essence creates fields of energetic

perception. This energy is conditioned into forms by the play of cause

and effect. These forms are our world and our self. The world, and all

worlds, are coincident with the essence of awareness, which is

birthless and deathless and utterly free of the implications of form

and limit. The manifest world is not other than essence, but essence

is not limited to the shape or conditions of the manifest worlds. One

might say that the world and all worlds are held together as form by

the conditioned and habitual intent of consciousness. Our particular

world is held together by the intent of human beings. The worlds of

other beings are held by the force of their conditioned intent.

   The structures of existence are not "real" in any ultimate

sense. They are public non-realities, playful dreams shaped out of

essence and molded in form. They are the radiance of pure

potentiality, momentarily given shape by intent and held

(8:37 PM) AEN: in a

seemingly cohesive pattern by karma or patterned habitualized

consciousness. A Tantric yogi shatters the tyranny of ordinary

appearance - the forgetting of how things took on their seemingly real

forms - by molding new structures of existence - private

non-realities.

   We are not talking here about "creative visualization" in the sense

generally used. Imagination is, generally, simply mind forms within

the public non-reality. We are talking about the actual deconstruction

of the building blocks of reality and reconstruction of

alternatives. Both public and private non-realities are conditioned

forms of consciousness. By enacting the process of creation and

destruction in the private non-reality the unquestioned authority and

permanence of the public non-reality is undermined. Through the

process of advanced Tantric sadhana one is able to recognize the

ground of intrinsic awareness within all conditioned forms. This

realization allows one to live as intrinsic awareness and recognize

all arising as ornaments of that awareness.

   The idea of Tantra is not identification with end

(8:37 PM) AEN:    The idea of Tantra is not identification with endless new

conditioned forms of awareness and color.  The point is to slip

between the cracks into the matrix of pure potentiality itself. The

goal is not achievement of unusual states it is to recognize your

primordial intrinsic nature in all appearence. Then all appearance has

the single taste of bliss and wisdom. That's not the end either it's

the beginning of endless play.

(8:39 PM) Thusness:      yes...well said.

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      unfortunately it is expressed in such a way. :P

(8:40 PM) AEN: in wat way

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      The way he put it.

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      it is very well put.

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      but not all will understand what he meant.

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      very much similar to what i told u.

(8:40 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:41 PM) Thusness:      u could appreciate it better.

(8:41 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:41 PM) Thusness:      who is this guy?

(8:44 PM) AEN: im not to osure... i tink he practice vajrayana, he described having some sexual like experience with some tibetan deities and received tantric initiation from those deities... i tink his visions or something

(8:44 PM) AEN: It was an intense

pleasurable sensation that pushed out from the center of my body, from

my heart, towards my skin, though this time it seemed to open forth

from silent space. I felt giddy and drunk. I looked up and for a

moment I could swear I saw the outline of a dancing woman standing in

the air above the library.  She was huge!  Maybe three hundred feet

tall.

   The vision lasted for a second, and I went in and began reading on

the nearly deserted fourth floor.  The longer I sat, the more intense

this vibration became.  I knew this process very well, and I knew it

would lead to a feeling of such intensity, that the ordinary world

around me would black out. This feeling of ecstatic drunkenness gets

stronger and stronger as if it's resonating more and more swiftly

through the entire body.  At a certain point visionary experience

outshines the "ordinary" world.

   I found myself in a cemetery.  A woman approached.  She was naked,

except for some bone ornaments. She was singing and dancing a tune of

haunting melody, which I later discovered was the mantra of her

consort Padmasambhava

(8:44 PM) AEN: : Om Ah Hung Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hung!

   I was entranced, simultaneously with ecstatic love and an absolute

feeling of overwhelming sexual desire so strong that I was sure I

would die from it. She danced around me and then swiftly stood

directly in front of me placing her genitals over my face. Her vagina

was over my mouth, there was blood flowing from it, and I drank this

blood deeply in an unending flow.  I could feel it coursing through my

body like liquid heat.  Suddenly the vision disappeared.  I got up and

went home - well, actually, I think I first went and had a chocolate

chip cookie. This began a period of what my wife and I refer to as the

"drooling in the living room" period.  I spent close to a month, mostly

sitting in a rocking chair in our living room unable to function

because the force of Bliss that was flowing through my body was so

overwhelming. I was also unable to speak about what was happening.

 

R: You have a very understanding wife.

 

P: Yes.  Without her I cannot imagine what would have happened to me

during this time.  These experiences awoke in my mind an

(8:45 PM) AEN: cant find much info about him tho...

(8:45 PM) Thusness:      what is his name?

(8:45 PM) Thusness:      Pranama

(8:46 PM) AEN: "What is Tantra?"

  an interview with Tantric Master Prem Pranama

(8:46 PM) AEN: hmm

(8:47 PM) AEN: This interview occured in the summer of 1994. The interviewer, Ralph

Abrams, has been a spiritual seeker for the last 25 years. He has

worked with Swami Muktananda, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Chagdud Tulku,

Nagkpa Chogyum, Native American teachers and currently lives in the

Crazy Cloud Hermitage where he studies the Tantric path with Pranama.

(8:47 PM) AEN: that means

(8:47 PM) AEN: Pranama is a tantric teacher at Crazy Cloud Hermitage.. i go check

(8:50 PM) AEN: oh

(8:50 PM) AEN: his tibetan title is Traktung Rinpoche

(8:51 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalserve.net%2F~sarlo%2FYnonice.htm&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=W5WihCsdMPW1vL0LaVDEt0e4A2iqR9yj4gq5w%2FpIPAs%3D&reserved=0

(8:51 PM) AEN:

 

Traktung 'Rinpoche' is one of those self-proclaimed tertons who go

around and find Tibetans to recognize him.

 

He used to call himself Khepa and his consort, 'Adzom Rinpoche' is

naturally an emanation of Yeshe Tsogyal.

 

He says he's the tulku of Do Khyentse ...the crazy wisdom yogi who

was one of the three main tulkus of Jigme Lingpa (the other two being

Paltrul Rinpoche and Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo)

 

However the only recognized emanations of Do Khyentse I know of are

Alak Zankar Rinpoche and Hungkar Dorje Rinpoche.

 

Traktung ?is a bright guy who claims to have had many intense

visionary experiences of Guru Rinpoche and others....he says his

teachings come from the mind mandate he received from Guru Rinpoche

in visions.

 

What he says below about the American Buddhist movement is not

something I completely disagree with...many Tibetans find this

movement to be off the mark because of its de-emphasis of the

importance of the guru...but I think Traktung may just be a part of a

different western buddhist movement...the self-proclaimed lineage

holders...which is cause for equal concern.

(8:51 PM) AEN: By coming off orthodox in

his statements he makes his own movement seem more traditional and

therefore more real...but I have plenty of doubts.

 

All that being said....I've never met the man and don't know if he

has any realization....and I always hesitate to judge without

personal experience. But I do know that his group was linked with the

Aro group (at least for a while) and we all know there are plenty of

questions surrounding them.

(8:52 PM) AEN: this guy say in his interview

(8:53 PM) AEN: "   The other reason is, I am a wild card as far as Tantric teachings

go. I claim the authority to teach Tantra based on my own radical

awakening into non-dual awareness and my own Mind Mandate Transmission

from Padmasambhava. Such claims could easily be made by any idiot -

and often are. I want my students and disciples to have a strong

ground on which they can evaluate me and decide where our connection

will go. I would like my students who do Tantric practice to be able

to work with other masters so that they can come to a greater degree

of understanding of my work when evaluated in the context of the

traditional tantric practice.

"

(8:53 PM) AEN: R: So you really didn't have any contact with Tibetan lamas, or the

Nyingma (Padmasambhava's) lineage, yet your teaching is very much

influenced by Tantra and you recognize Padmasambhava as your root

Guru. Without any contact with the lineage, you're kind of a wild card

as a teacher.

 

P: (Laughing uproariously) Yeah, I am a wild card as a Tantric

Master. But even wilder than this crazy connection with Tantra is that

I am free. Free of birth and death, fear, anxiety, worry. Free beyond

being and non-being. Free to do anything. And I just might - and it's

a wonderful thing!

     A wild card like me who has awakened into and embodied the heart

of Tantric practice is unique in terms of the trans-cultural migration

of Tantra to the West.  Padmasambhava was a wild guy because he was

the freedom and bliss of this mysterious reality. Those who awaken to

their true nature are the same one - though in their own unique

appearance. As Tantra develops in this culture, many aspects of its

form are going to have to change.  At the same time this must be done

in such a way as to not damage the teach

(8:53 PM) AEN: he dun have apparent lineages from living masters... but maybe he got his initiation from some dakini or wat? lol

(8:54 PM) AEN: he also seem to be involved in advaita

(8:54 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(8:55 PM) Thusness:      It is better to remain quiet.  It can cause confusions. :)

(8:56 PM) Thusness:      Like ur teacher chen, without ur Master will not be accepted.  Even with ur Master authentication, he may still not be accepted in orthodox schools.

(8:56 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:57 PM) Thusness:      My view is though great awakening does not really require lineages, it is best not to go around starting new movement to confuse ppl.

(8:57 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:58 PM) AEN: i wonder if any living rinpoches recognised him

(8:58 PM) Thusness:      time will tell. :)

(8:58 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:06 PM)           Thusness is now Offline

(9:11 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.traktungrinpoche.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hNkXX8bHaTq4G5awHkNyenY08oHtGmwvn7SaE21eSGw%3D&reserved=0

 

 

Session Start: Wednesday, March 12, 2008

 

(12:21 PM) AEN:              yesterday i had a rather strange experience

(12:21 PM) AEN:              quite difficult to describe

(12:22 PM) AEN:              feels like fading out of existence... and forcefully 'absorbed' into the surroundings... a bit intense... like as if entering a different state of consciousness

(12:22 PM) AEN:              but lasted for a while then returned

(12:23 PM) Thusness:    hmm....not a good description.

(12:23 PM) AEN:              ya i dunno how to describe

(12:23 PM) AEN:              lol

(12:23 PM) AEN:              but it was like more intense than the other day

(12:23 PM) Thusness:    is there clarity?

(12:23 PM) AEN:              ya i think so... just awareness as form

(12:24 PM) Thusness:    did u sit?

(12:24 PM) AEN:              ya i was sitting

(12:24 PM) Thusness:    oh...u open ur eyes. :P

(12:24 PM) AEN:              yea i opened my eyes cos i felt a bit tired

(12:24 PM) AEN:              lol

(12:25 PM) Thusness:    fading out of existence is not a good description then.

(12:25 PM) AEN:              isit.. how come

(12:26 PM) Thusness:    it is just personality dissolving.

(12:26 PM) AEN:              ya i mean not becoming unconscious la

(12:26 PM) AEN:              icic

(12:26 PM) Thusness:    knowing that u r not body, mind but mere luminosity

(12:27 PM) Thusness:    however this is not the body/mind dropped yet.

(12:27 PM) AEN:              yea i had a feeling as if my body and mind is dissolving

(12:27 PM) AEN:              but im not sure if tats the case

(12:27 PM) Thusness:    yet u experienced vividness of forms.

(12:27 PM) AEN:              ya

(12:27 PM) Thusness:    this is like stage 2.

(12:28 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:28 PM) Thusness:    u need to do more summary of what i said.

(12:28 PM) Thusness:    about anatta.

(12:28 PM) Thusness:    for now, u will not not understand the profound meaning of anatta and emptiness in terms of experience.

(12:28 PM) Thusness:    it will only come many many years later.

(12:29 PM) Thusness:    but it is sort of advaita vedanta experience.

(12:29 PM) AEN:              oic

(12:29 PM) Thusness:    u must do sitting meditation.

(12:30 PM) Thusness:    u will not be able to overcome thoughts

(12:30 PM) Thusness:    when u sit, u will lose that clarity or luminosity

(12:30 PM) AEN:              y when i sit i will lose that clarity

(12:30 PM) Thusness:    that is why u must learn to sit

(12:30 PM) AEN:              u mean when i dun sit?

(12:31 PM) Thusness:    because ur mind have not reached the sort of stability

(12:31 PM) Thusness:    when u shut ur eyes and lost vividness, ur mind does not know how to remain calm and clear.

(12:32 PM) AEN:              oic

(12:32 PM) AEN:              yesterday i was too tired

(12:32 PM) AEN:              so i opened my eyes

(12:32 PM) AEN:              otherwise i feel like falling asleep

(12:32 PM) AEN:              lol

(12:32 PM) AEN:              but if im awake i can remain calm and clear with eyes closed

(12:32 PM) Thusness:    so when u sit, although u r not able to have that clarity, when u open ur eyes, u will.

(12:32 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:32 PM) Thusness:    so u must practice.

(12:33 PM) Thusness:    what u r experiencing is merely because of ur conditions ripening due to continuing summarizing

(12:33 PM) Thusness:    it is not meditative 'strength'

(12:34 PM) AEN:              after the experience i was wondering if i actually dissolved my body as if last time jhana like tat... cos i felt like as if my body and mind is dissolving. but then i dun tink its a v similar experience, unless i forgotten

(12:34 PM) Thusness:    it is like glimpses

(12:34 PM) AEN:              icic

(12:34 PM) Thusness:    yes but not yet body and mind drop.

(12:34 PM) Thusness:    that will come much later

(12:34 PM) Thusness:    it requires u to be able to do body mind deconstruction.

(12:35 PM) Thusness:    at present u still do not know the strength of propensities.

(12:35 PM) AEN:              u said its not meditative strength but more like glimpses... but the experience was kind of intense leh

(12:35 PM) Thusness:    u do not know exactly what is bonding u yet.

(12:35 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(12:35 PM) AEN:              its like a bit scary... well not scary during the experience la

(12:35 PM) AEN:              lol

(12:35 PM) Thusness:    intense does not mean meditative strength

(12:36 PM) AEN:              i mean its kind of forceful as if entering a different state of consciousness

(12:36 PM) AEN:              icic

(12:36 PM) Thusness:    meditative strength means u are able to experience it right now.

(12:36 PM) AEN:              oic

(12:36 PM) Thusness:    ur intensity is not the sort of oceanic feeling yet

(12:36 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:37 PM) Thusness:    u must learn how to sit.

(12:37 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:38 PM) Thusness:    actually ur experience is very similar to that optimistic

(12:38 PM) AEN:              isit

(12:38 PM) AEN:              lol

(12:39 PM) AEN:              oh he replied

(12:39 PM) AEN:              Thank you Suguno and Xabir! Your comments are very appreciated.

 

Now off to the cushion...

 

biggrin.gif

(12:40 PM) Thusness:    for u realisation comes easiest from opening eyes and having movement.

(12:40 PM) Thusness:    however of all the six senses, u can only have clarity of sight.

(12:41 PM) Thusness:    all six doors must have that sort of clarity

(12:41 PM) AEN:              not realy i tink i was being absorbed in sound and other sensation also

(12:41 PM) AEN:              icic

(12:41 PM) Thusness:    when u close ur eyes, touch, taste, sound and thoughts come into play

(12:41 PM) Thusness:    when u sit u will know lah

(12:42 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:42 PM) Thusness:    sit then u compare that clarity

(12:42 PM) Thusness:    u will know what i meant

(12:43 PM) AEN:              oic

(12:43 PM) Thusness:    but u can jot down ur experiences.

(12:43 PM) Thusness:    do more summary of anatta and emptiness.

(12:43 PM) AEN:              actually if im awake i can maintain clarity, but i dunno if i can have that sort of experience..

(12:44 PM) AEN:              but last time the 'i am' sort of experience is when my eyes close i tink

(12:44 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(12:44 PM) AEN:              i mean if im awake and i closed my eyes

(12:44 PM) Thusness:    remember to learn how to drop

(12:44 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:45 PM) Thusness:    learning how to drop further is very important now.

(12:45 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:46 PM) Thusness:    especially that stanza i told u to keep in mind

(12:46 PM) Thusness:    then learn to drop 'sheh' further.

(12:47 PM) AEN:              icic

(12:47 PM) AEN:              which stanza? :P

(12:47 PM) Thusness:    in the bahiya sutta

(12:47 PM) AEN:              o icic

(12:47 PM) Thusness:    or the buddhagosha

(12:47 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:48 PM) Thusness:    what u are doing now is like having a speedy glimpse...but u need to develop meditative strength

(12:48 PM) Thusness:    otherwise later u will face problem

(12:48 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:53 PM) Thusness:    rem about the 2 stanza i told u.

(12:53 PM) AEN:              bahiya sutta?

(12:53 PM) Thusness:    and the buddhagosha stanza

(12:53 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:54 PM)         Thusness is now Offline

(12:56 PM) Thusness:    by the way the question for optomistic is also suitable for u. :P

(12:56 PM) AEN:              oic..

 

(12:57 PM) AEN:              btw can u go online for a while :P send u something

(12:57 PM) Thusness:    When u have complete certainty of the 'I', the 'Self', tell me. :)

(12:57 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:57 PM)         Thusness is now Online

(12:58 PM) AEN:              Initiated a file transfer

(12:58 PM) AEN:              ya i tried 'who am i' yesterday then became more aware of this awareness, like the 'i am'

(12:58 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(12:58 PM) Thusness:    when u have vividness and complete certainty as if u r enlightened, tell me. :P

(12:58 PM) Thusness:    then i will lead u towards non-dual.

(12:58 PM) AEN:              haha ok

(12:58 PM) Thusness:    anatta.

(12:58 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:59 PM) Thusness:    what is that file hah?

(1:00 PM) Thusness:      don't ask "who am i".

(1:00 PM) Thusness:      ask the question i told u. (before birth, who am i?)

(1:00 PM) AEN: icic.. ok

 (1:00 PM) AEN: hmm some excerpts from a talk by li zhu lao shi.. lol

(1:01 PM) Thusness:      some similarity about ur experiences

(1:01 PM) AEN: a few parts. but last part cut off cos tape change.

(1:01 PM)           Transfer of "LZLS_Q&A1_excerpts.wmv" is complete.

(1:07 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(1:08 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Online

(1:08 PM) Thusness:      what u wanna ask?

(1:10 PM) AEN: hmm nothing much actually just wanted to ask in meditation we shld drop and at the same time maintain clarity such tats there whether there is thought rite.. like if theres thought then theres awareness of it but theres also clarity when theres no thought

(1:10 PM) AEN: and also we can practice this in chanting rite.. like the 3 stages

(1:10 PM) AEN: like as in maintain awareness of chanting?

(1:11 PM) Thusness:      now what is ur understanding of what she said?

(1:11 PM) AEN: hmm sounds a bit like 'watcher' (Comments by Soh in 2022: my local dharma teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi has progressed from I AM to anatta since, see Singaporean Dharma Teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi (丽珠老师))

(1:12 PM) Thusness:      yes

(1:12 PM) Thusness:      so should u practice that way?

(1:12 PM) AEN: no?

(1:12 PM) Thusness:      nope

(1:12 PM) Thusness:      u should

(1:12 PM) AEN: yea i just practice clarity lor...

(1:12 PM) AEN: i never tink in terms of watcher or not

(1:13 PM) Thusness:      u should practice according to what she said first.

(1:13 PM) Thusness:      but continue to do summary of what i said.

(1:13 PM) Thusness:      there is no way u can enter directly into non-dual or awakening to the profound experience of anatta.

(1:13 PM) Thusness:      not now.

(1:14 PM) Thusness:      so u must do accordingly.

(1:14 PM) Thusness:      whatever that is taught is for u to have the experiece of the first 2 stages.

(1:15 PM) Thusness:      then sustain these stages.

(1:15 PM) Thusness:      the purpose is to maintain these stages.

(1:15 PM) AEN: icic..

(1:15 PM) Thusness:      first is to have the understanding of what is awareness.

(1:16 PM) Thusness:      then use whatever method and all ur understanding to keep this state.

(1:16 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:17 PM) Thusness:      because our mind is under such a deep influence of our propensities, u have to do that.

(1:18 PM) Thusness:      that meditative strength of sustaining will lead u to the arising of prajna wisdom if u continue to summarize the doctrine of anatta and emptiness.

(1:18 PM) AEN: icic..

 

Session Start: Friday, March 14, 2008

 

(12:38 AM) AEN:             https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D65796%26st%3D0%26%23entry903192&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ft1MfK1FWGgPkXtdGDRgcHEFyd8geeh84mvtD7%2FvRbw%3D&reserved=0

(12:38 AM) AEN:            

THE FUNCTION OF BHAVANGA

 

There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Is there at those moments still citta? Even when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking, there must be citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta. Bhavanga literally means 'factor of life'; bhavanga is usually translated into English as 'life-continuum'. The bhavanga-citta sees to it that there is continuity in a life-span, so that what we call a 'being' keeps alive.

 

One may wonder whether bhavanga-cittas often arise. There must be countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming there are akusala cittas or kusala cittas, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep, there still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at these moments. Also when we are awake there are countless bhavanga-cittas arising; they arise in b

(12:38 AM) AEN:             they arise in between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there are different processes of citta and in between these processes there are bhavanga-cittas.

 

The bhavanga-citta is the same type of citta as the first citta in life, the patisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness). When the patisandhi-citta falls away it conditions the next citta to arise which is the second citta in that life. This citta is the first bhavanga-citta in life.

 

The bhavanga-citta is vipakacitta; it is the result of the same kamma which produced the patisandhi-citta. There is only one patisandhi-citta in a life, but there are countless bhavanga-cittas. Not only the first bhavanga-citta, but all bhavanga-cittas arising during a lifespan are the result of the kamma which produced the patisandhi-citta.

 

There are nineteen types of patisandhi-citta and thus there are nineteen types of bhavanga-citta. If the patisandhi-citta is akusala vipaka, which is the case when there is birth in a woeful plane, all bhavanga-cittas of that life

(12:39 AM) AEN:             is bhavanga citta the 8th consciousness?

(12:40 AM) Thusness:    can be taken as yes.

(12:40 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:41 AM) Thusness:    theravada & mahayaha hv different teachings

(12:41 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:44 AM) Thusness:    don't think too much for now

(12:44 AM) AEN:             icic

(12:46 AM) Thusness:    later part after anatta & emptiness is experienced

(12:47 AM) Thusness:    u will not worry abt these anymore

(12:47 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:47 AM) Thusness:    there is just full focus on the depth of luminosity

(12:48 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:48 AM) Thusness:    luminosity with no-self

(12:48 AM) Thusness:    till as if absorption

(12:49 AM) Thusness:    u will only interested in 'effortlessness' of perfect luminosity without self

 

 

Session Start: Saturday, March 15, 2008

 

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    anyway what u wrote is a good expression of ur experience.

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    i will comment next day...quite busy these days

(12:19 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:20 AM) Thusness:    did u practice dropping?

(12:21 AM) AEN:             ya

(12:21 AM) AEN:             just dropped loh

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    ok...

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    it must go into ur mind.

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    sheh

(12:21 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:25 AM) Thusness:    to bring about the insight of anatta, u need to have the experience of stage 2, u need to 'sheh' as in stage 3 and u need to have the right view

(12:26 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:50 AM) AEN:             btw just now u said Thusness said:

True only to certain extend.  There is also over exaggeration.

(12:51 AM) AEN:             wat were u refering to?

 

Session Start: Saturday, March 15, 2008

 

(9:29 PM) AEN: hi

(9:30 PM) AEN: u said The dissolving of 'I' and 'death' must include both the experience of luminosity and 'losing of consciousness'. 

(9:30 PM) AEN: u mean luminosity and losing consciousness must be experienced at the same time?

(9:30 PM) AEN: or as separate events

(9:30 PM) AEN: even while losing consciousness one must still experience luminosity rite

(9:57 PM) Thusness:      no

(9:57 PM) Thusness:      just like deep sleep, u do not experience consciousness.

(9:57 PM) Thusness:      do u experience luminosity?

(9:58 PM) AEN: no

(9:58 PM) AEN: i dunnu

(9:58 PM) AEN: i dun remember anything

(9:58 PM) AEN: lol

(9:59 PM) Thusness:      LOL

(9:59 PM) Thusness:      because u r thinking from the perspective of 'entity' bounded by the four extremes, u cannot know.

(10:00 PM) Thusness:    learn the meaning of anatta and meditate upon it.

(10:01 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:02 PM) Thusness:    must karma takes place immediately?

(10:04 PM) AEN:              nope

(10:05 PM) AEN:              it can span lifetimes

(10:06 PM) Thusness:    is the previous moment the same as this moment?

(10:08 PM) AEN:              no

(10:09 PM) Thusness:    can karmic tendencies be found?

(10:09 PM) AEN:              no

(10:10 PM) AEN:              its not an entity but when conditions are there it manifests?

(10:10 PM) Thusness:    then karmic tendencies planted in the previous moment, taking effect after spanning multiple lives time, does it exist or not exist?

(10:11 PM) AEN:              its just there as potential lor... like a seed

(10:11 PM) AEN:              as in before it manifests

(10:11 PM) Thusness:    then where is it?

(10:12 PM) AEN:              its not a something.. just a potential?

(10:12 PM) Thusness:    a potential is not an existence.

(10:12 PM) Thusness:    it is just a concept for the conventional mind to grasp.

(10:12 PM) Thusness:    to understand.

(10:13 PM) Thusness:    anyway what is important is for u to understand what anatta is first.

(10:13 PM) Thusness:    then know the strength of propensities.

(10:13 PM) Thusness:    the impacts of labels have on consciousness and how it creates reality.

(10:14 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:14 PM) Thusness:    so experience the luminosity...

(10:14 PM) Thusness:    go step by step...

(10:14 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:14 PM) AEN:              btw i brb.. need to help my sis

(10:14 PM) AEN:              on her comp

(10:26 PM) AEN:              back

(10:27 PM) AEN:              so potential is not an existence

(10:27 PM) AEN:              but its part of our 8th consciousness rite?

(10:27 PM) Thusness:    it is no good for u to be too conceptual now.

(10:28 PM) Thusness:    just practice according to ur experience.

(10:28 PM) AEN:              and is like a process?

(10:28 PM) AEN:              oic

(10:28 PM) Thusness:    once u experience ur luminosity, u should be less conceptual and focus more on letting go and doing away with ur self.

(10:29 PM) Thusness:    in fact if anatta and emptiness has nothing to do with doing away with the self, u should not even think of it.

(10:29 PM) AEN:              wat u mean

(10:29 PM) Thusness:    what that is most important is doing away with the self.

(10:30 PM) Thusness:    u should be less conceptual.

(10:30 PM) Thusness:    does what u experience tell u to be conceptual or non-conceptual?

(10:30 PM) AEN:              non conceptual

(10:31 PM) AEN:              in fact if anatta and emptiness has nothing to do with doing away with the self, u should not even think of it. --> wat u mean by not thinking about doing away with the self

(10:31 PM) Thusness:    if in a period of no buddha, there is no teaching of anatta and emptiness, what would u do now?

(10:31 PM) AEN:              just practice and see for oneself loh

(10:32 PM) Thusness:    how will u practice?

(10:32 PM) AEN:              dropping?

(10:32 PM) Thusness:    dropping?

(10:32 PM) Thusness:    why dropped?

(10:32 PM) Thusness:    after some glimpses of the luminosity, u dropped what?

(10:32 PM) AEN:              thoughts, concepts, self?

(10:33 PM) Thusness:    for what?

(10:33 PM) AEN:              to experience things as it is.. like originality?

(10:33 PM) Thusness:    i mean for what?

(10:33 PM) Thusness:    who tell u that?

(10:33 PM) AEN:              for liberation?

(10:33 PM) Thusness:    pengz

(10:33 PM) AEN:              lol

(10:33 PM) Thusness:    who tell u that?

(10:34 PM) AEN:              huh

(10:34 PM) AEN:              buddha?

(10:34 PM) Thusness:    in a period where there is no buddha's teaching, u talk about buddha?

(10:34 PM) AEN:              lol

(10:35 PM) AEN:              for clarity.. bliss..?

(10:35 PM) Thusness:    after the glimpses, what is the first thing u want to do?

(10:36 PM) AEN:              dunnu.. sustain or experience it again?

(10:36 PM) Thusness:    yes

(10:36 PM) Thusness:    what dunno

(10:36 PM) AEN:              lol

(10:36 PM) Thusness:    how will u able to progress then without teacher

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    after the glimpses, u r guided by that experience

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    u wanted to find out more about the experience

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    to prolong it

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    to master it

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    to find out the peak of it

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    right?

(10:37 PM) AEN:              oh i get wat u mean haha

(10:37 PM) AEN:              ya

(10:38 PM) Thusness:    so what is anatta and emptiness about?

(10:38 PM) Thusness:    it is a teaching of buddha to do that.

(10:38 PM) Thusness:    about right undersanding of the experience

(10:38 PM) Thusness:    in fact any pure experience

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    what is it so that the peak of experience can be understood correctly and effortlessly sustained.

(10:39 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    it already is but just need to know the propensities at work.

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    but in a period of no buddha teachings, u r guided by ur own inner wisdom.

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    u find out more

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    u attempt to sustain

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    to maintain but u can't

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    u struggled

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    u meditate

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    u speculate

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    u think

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    then u realised more and more like a scientist

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    then u know what are the important conditions that require u to have such experiences

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    u know tat u must be non-conceptual

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    u have to let go

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    but still u r unable to reach effortlessness luminosity

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    u go on...trying

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    get it?

(10:41 PM) AEN:              ya

(10:42 PM) Thusness:    this is what buddha did...

(10:42 PM) Thusness:    u must first have some experience

(10:42 PM) Thusness:    the more experienced practitioners can only guide u.

(10:42 PM) Thusness:    buddha is one that has reached the highest wisdom and achievement

(10:43 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:43 PM) Thusness:    so we follow

(10:43 PM) Thusness:    if there isn't one...then u are guided by ur own inner wisdom

(10:43 PM) Thusness:    till u understand the 'already is' vs propensities

(10:44 PM) AEN:              back

(10:44 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:44 PM) Thusness:    at present u must learn how to profound ur experience

(10:44 PM) Thusness:    know what conciousness is.

(10:45 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:45 PM) Thusness:    stage 1, 2 and 3 are advaita vedanta

(10:45 PM) AEN:              oic

(10:46 PM) Thusness:    what u experienced is similar to ramana maharishi

(10:46 PM) Thusness:    he went through the same question pretending that he is dead.

(10:46 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:47 PM) Thusness:    a person undergoing stage 1 when he experiences stage 2, he might not know the difference.

(10:47 PM) AEN:              how come

(10:47 PM) Thusness:    there is no insight into it...

(10:47 PM) Thusness:    because of propensities

(10:47 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:48 PM) Thusness:    he might not be able to see the conditions

(10:48 PM) Thusness:    so stage 1 is inner, stage 2 is outer

(10:49 PM) Thusness:    but deep in these practitioners, the views are still dual.

(10:50 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:52 PM) Thusness:    u must also be deeply aware of these tendencies and their strength to blind

(10:53 PM) Thusness:    and that is what consciousness is all about.

(10:53 PM) Thusness:    luminosity and tendencies and emptiness

(10:53 PM) Thusness:    that is all.

(10:53 PM) AEN:              oic..

 

Session Start: Sunday, March 16, 2008

 

(12:35 PM) Thusness:    posted.

(12:35 PM) Thusness:    it is not appropriate to ask me whether it is nirodha samapatti.

(12:35 PM) Thusness:    as it is mislead ppl thinking of ones attainment.

(12:35 PM) Thusness:    will mislead

(12:40 PM) Thusness:    ic.

(12:40 PM) Thusness:    what i said is stage 3.

(12:40 PM) AEN:              btw i tink at first i tink its a little bit scary... but i just let go

(12:41 PM) AEN:              oic

(12:43 PM) Thusness:    I think i stated quite clearly in stage 3.

(12:43 PM) Thusness:    the mind after going through few of these experiences need to sort out and integrate all these experiences.

(12:44 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:44 PM) Thusness:    therefore i tell u to drop

(12:44 PM) Thusness:    for dropping is the antidote of intense vividness

(12:44 PM) Thusness:    and dropping allows u to have another experience

 (12:45 PM) AEN:             different experience?

(12:45 PM) Thusness:    yes

(12:45 PM) Thusness:    did i tell u it is the same experience?

(12:45 PM) Thusness:    read what i wrote about stage 3.

(12:45 PM) AEN:             

However I came to one important understanding –

The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything simply Self So.

(12:45 PM) AEN:              this?

(12:45 PM) Thusness:    yes

(12:45 PM) Thusness:    i din tok about luminosity

(12:46 PM) Thusness:    clarity

(12:46 PM) Thusness:    i said it is a state of oblivious

(12:46 PM) Thusness:    i go makan first and tell u later...

(12:46 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:47 PM) Thusness:    the purpose of me telling u to drop is for u to get around the problem of intense luminosity and at the same time experience naturalness and spontaneity by way of dropping.

(12:47 PM) Thusness:    however all these experiences contribute later to the insight of anatta.

(12:47 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:47 PM) Thusness:    or great clarity of anatta.

(12:48 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:48 PM) Thusness:    therefore i told u to summarize at the same time.

(12:48 PM) AEN:              icic..

(12:48 PM) Thusness:    and also learn how to drop

(12:49 PM) AEN:              oic

(12:51 PM) Thusness:    anatta is like the integration of both

(12:52 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:52 PM) Thusness:    with right understanding.

(12:52 PM) AEN:              icic..

 

Session Start: Sunday, March 16, 2008

 

(2:11 PM) AEN: continue dropping?

(2:12 PM) Thusness:      not only that

(2:16 PM) AEN: the experience of vivid luminosity?

(2:16 PM) Thusness:      kok ur head!

(2:16 PM) AEN: lol

(2:16 PM) AEN: understand anatta?

(2:16 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(2:16 PM) Thusness:      summarize it.

(2:17 PM) Thusness:      with ur experience relate it.

(2:17 PM) AEN: lol the taoist guy asked me ++GeNoTaUr++  2008 taiwan presidential elections says:

so being and non being matually creates each other is wrong ?

(2:17 PM) AEN: oic

(2:17 PM) Thusness:      with luminosity and dropping, u experience new frontiers and refinement of what u know about consciousness then continue to summarize it.

(2:17 PM) Thusness:      and take the bahiya sutta seriously until the insight dawn.

(2:18 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:18 PM) AEN: btw someone asking me wat does emptiness giving rise to form means in taoism

(2:19 PM) Thusness:      it is a different concept.

(2:19 PM) Thusness:      not the same as buddhism.

(2:19 PM) AEN: icic

(2:19 PM) AEN: then wat it means

(2:19 PM) Thusness:      it is tao through yin and yang interaction

(2:20 PM) AEN: oic

(2:21 PM) AEN: btw entering oblivious isnt it the experience u told longchen not to get into last time?

(2:21 PM) Thusness:      nope

(2:21 PM) Thusness:      i said presence is more important

(2:21 PM) Thusness:      i did not deny that state.

(2:22 PM) AEN: oic presence is more impt?

(2:22 PM) Thusness:      u r seeking a state.

(2:22 PM) Thusness:      that is the problem of sentient being.

(2:22 PM) AEN: lzls also said about 'pian kong' and is complete absence even no awareness but we shldnt get into the state, awareness more impt

(2:22 PM) AEN: icic

(2:23 PM) Thusness:      i did not deny "I AMness" either

(2:23 PM) Thusness:      I only say it is not what it is claimed to be.  Ultimate, changeless, independent.

(2:23 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:24 PM) Thusness:      There is no denial of anything.  It is to correctly understand the nature of this experience.

(2:24 PM) AEN: (3:02 AM) AEN: ajahn brahm: "Then superpower mindfulness takes the jhana experience just past, a sustained experience of the citta set apart from the five senses, as its object of investigation. Only in this way will the truth be seen that the citta is anatta, that mind consciousness is subject to arising and passing, that it is neither "me" nor "mine" nor a self, that it is neither God nor cosmic consciousness -- that it is just citta, a flame burning because of fuel."

(3:05 AM) AEN: "...The citta too depends on fuel. The suttas say that the citta depends on nama-rupa (body and objects of mind) and when nama rupa ceases, the citta completely ceases. It goes out. It "nibbanas." It doesn't go anywhere, it just ceases to exist. Interestingly, the two famous bhikkunis Kisagotami and Patacara became fully enlightened when they saw the flame of a lamp go out."

(2:24 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:24 PM) Thusness:      when u understand it wrongly, u sought after it.

(2:24 PM) AEN: oic

(2:24 PM) Thusness:      when it is understood correctly, it is everywhere.

(2:24 PM) Thusness:      that is the whole purpose.

(2:24 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:24 PM) Thusness:      Yes what ajahn brahm put is quite clear.

(2:25 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:26 PM) Thusness:      a person that experiences 'going out' is not interested in existence or non-existence.

(2:26 PM) Thusness:      a person that is dualistic is interested in do 'I' exist after 'going out'.

(2:28 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:28 PM) AEN: lol

(2:30 PM) Thusness:      anatta has the 2 characteristics of 'dropping' and 'vividness'

(2:30 PM) Thusness:      but the way towards it is the arising of insight.  Not by any act of effort.

(2:31 PM) Thusness:      It is the arising of prajna wisdom of no-self as an already experientially in every moment and manifestation.

(2:32 PM) Thusness:      when the insight is fully clear and sunk in our inmost consciousness, u will be vividly clear and effortless and spontaneous.  U neither know or not know.

(2:32 PM) Thusness:      Nor are u troubled by arbitrary thoughts of life and death.

(2:32 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:33 PM) Thusness:      u do not entertain a particular system of thoughts and engage in useless and fruitless argument that is dualistic in nature.

(2:34 PM) Thusness:      for u do not see 'essence' in anything.  Coming and going of an 'essence' no more troubles u.

(2:34 PM) Thusness:      and u do not think that way.  Experiences is not bounded that way.

(2:34 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      ur undertanding slowly enters into spontaneity, unconditioned, unborn, intuitive and vivid.

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      there is no vagueness.

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      in understanding.

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      the dualistic framework is gone.

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      many masters now over claim their experiences.

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      even many so called zen masters anyhow anyhow

(2:35 PM) Thusness:      :P

(2:36 PM) AEN: lol

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      like what u experienced is considered enlightenment.

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      they experienced non-conceptuality but does not understand the core of buddhism.

(2:36 PM) AEN: usually those who think they're enlightened are those that experienced  "that deep and utimate conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence -- "I AM'. rite

(2:36 PM) AEN: oic

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(2:36 PM) Thusness:      Even some zen masters.

(2:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:37 PM) Thusness:      david loy wrote pretty well about non-dual but missed it.  He under-estimated the teaching of Bahiya Sutta.

(2:38 PM) Thusness:      And remarked that it is not clear that buddha spoke of non-dual experiences.

(2:38 PM) AEN: he wrote about bahiya sutta a few times also

(2:38 PM) AEN: oic

(2:38 PM) Thusness:      That is a wrong concept.

(2:38 PM) Thusness:      in fact it is most clear that Bahiya Sutta taught the peak of non-dual experience.

(2:38 PM) Thusness:      That is the correct view.

(2:38 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:39 PM) Thusness:      But David Loy present a very good foundation for one to understand non-dual experience.

(2:39 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:39 PM) Thusness:      It is difficult to find such explanation in words.

(2:39 PM) AEN: icic..

 (2:41 PM) Thusness:     where u get that from, the subject A.

(2:42 PM) AEN: back.. lol my sis comp motherboard burst... now going to buy laptop

(2:42 PM) AEN: from david loy's book

(2:42 PM) AEN: the person said at first is blue, the mist, then like oceanic

(2:42 PM) AEN: isit like the oceanic experience u said

(2:42 PM) Thusness:      which book?

(2:43 PM) AEN: nonduality

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      non-duality?

(2:43 PM) AEN: yea

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      or those i lent u?

(2:43 PM) AEN: nope nonduality

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      i don't remember reading it.

(2:43 PM) AEN: nonduality i bought i tink

(2:43 PM) AEN: isit

(2:43 PM) AEN: chapter 2, nondual perception

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      i will re-read again. :P

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      no time these days.

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      lol

(2:43 PM) AEN: oic

(2:44 PM) AEN: but the thing i copied is like stage 2?

(2:44 PM) Thusness:      The more important stuff is do u understand what i wrote about the 6 stages?

(2:44 PM) AEN: think so

(2:44 PM) Thusness:      till now u still can't relate?

(2:44 PM) AEN: lol

(2:45 PM) AEN: In later sessions Subject A described a "filmn of blue" -- later a "mist" and then "a sea of blue" -- that developed as the boundaries of the vase dissolved, covering the table on which the vase sat and the wall behind it, giving them all a blue color. She experienced some anxiety in that "it [this sea of blue] lost its boundaries and I might lose mine too... I was swimming in a sea of blue and I felt for a moment that I was going to drown..."

(2:45 PM) AEN: isit wat u said absorption until experience becomes oceanic

(2:45 PM) Thusness:      i got to read first.

(2:45 PM) AEN: also she said she experienced anxiety or fear... tats common rite.. i tink at first it feels a bit scary and weird but just let go

(2:45 PM) AEN: oic

(2:46 PM) Thusness:      When the insight of anatta truly arise, there is absolutely no fear of letting go of the 'I'.  It is natural and understood as our natural state.

(2:47 PM) Thusness:      anyway, u should look for ur master and teacher to relate ur experience.

(2:47 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:48 PM) Thusness:      just don't get too attached to it.

(2:48 PM) Thusness:      but correctly understand it.

(2:48 PM) AEN: icic

(2:48 PM) Thusness:      But lzls insight is still not there. :P (Comments by Soh in 2022: my local dharma teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi has progressed from I AM to anatta since, see Singaporean Dharma Teacher Li Zhu Lao Shi (丽珠老师))

(2:49 PM) Thusness:      u might want to look for chen ming an.

(2:49 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:49 PM) AEN: still not there as in anatta?

(2:49 PM) Thusness:      yes

(2:49 PM) AEN: teacher chen coming year end

(2:49 PM) AEN: icic

(2:52 PM) AEN: yesterday i try asking 'who am i' or 'without thoughts or symbols how is 'I' experienced'... wat i experience is more like conscious presence more like 'i am'

(2:52 PM) Thusness:      continue

(2:53 PM) Thusness:      i will ask u further.

(2:53 PM) AEN: but i din experience 'dissolving self'... as in not like the other kind of experience

(2:53 PM) AEN: huh

(2:53 PM) Thusness:      the kind of experience of forms and nothing else.

(2:53 PM) Thusness:      no-self?

(2:53 PM) AEN: ya

(2:53 PM) Thusness:      non-dual.

(2:53 PM) AEN: i mean i din experience tat yesterday

(2:54 PM) Thusness:      means u never experience the non-dual epxerience.

(2:54 PM) AEN: ya

(2:54 PM) AEN: cos i was asking the qn

(2:54 PM) Thusness:      u experience the "AMness"

(2:54 PM) AEN: 'without symbols or thoughts what does 'I' feel like'

(2:54 PM) AEN: oic

(2:54 PM) Thusness:      ask this "before birth, who r u"

(2:54 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:54 PM) AEN: y 'before birth'

(2:55 PM) Thusness:      don't ask lah

(2:55 PM) AEN: lol

 

Session Start: Sunday, March 16, 2008

 

 

(9:11 PM) AEN: longchen replied today Sorry... haven't come up for a long time.

 

I read a bit about your post. IMO, the death experience is not the same as what you described. Total shut of thoughts and sense... cannot be cognited.... there is no understanding of anything there for the split second that the shut down is experienced.

 

(9:41 PM) Thusness:      yes

(9:42 PM) AEN: death is like stage 3 rite

(9:42 PM) AEN: like clinical death experience?

(9:43 PM) Thusness:      it is not like it is like stage 3.  It is ur are assuming ur present experience to infer the complete experience of 'death' or the total dissolution of 'I'.

(9:45 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:45 PM) Thusness:      Whatever I told u don't have to post.

(9:45 PM) AEN: lol ok

(9:45 PM) Thusness:      coz certain thing i don't want ppl to know.

(9:46 PM) Thusness:      they are not in constant interaction with me

(9:46 PM) Thusness:      when they practice accordingly who is there to help?

(9:46 PM) Thusness:      u?

(9:46 PM) AEN: wat u mean

(9:47 PM) Thusness:      if ppl follow according what that is being conversed and there is problem, who is there to help?

(9:47 PM) Thusness:      u go help them or what?

(9:47 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:47 PM) Thusness:      because u r in constant interaction with me, when u have the problem, i know how to help.

(9:47 PM) Thusness:      but they are neither here nor there.

(9:48 PM) Thusness:      what that is suitable is not really suitable for other ppl.

(9:48 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:48 PM) Thusness:      what is intense luminosity?

(9:48 PM) Thusness:      do i tell them to ask "before birth who r u"

(9:49 PM) Thusness:      don't anyhow write about what i told u.

(9:49 PM) Thusness:      especially when it is not about buddhism.

(9:49 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:49 PM) Thusness:      take it out.

(9:49 PM) AEN: yea i removed it

(9:49 PM) Thusness:      stage one to 3 is not about Buddhism.

(9:49 PM) Thusness:      if it is about vipassana or insight meditation, it is okie.

(9:50 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:50 PM) Thusness:      These are not the right practice.

(9:50 PM) Thusness:      short cut somemore

(9:50 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:51 PM) Thusness:      when u said about fusing into everything, I just warn u about being to conclusive.

(9:51 PM) Thusness:      u missed some other points.

(9:52 PM) Thusness:      what u experienced is not Buddhist anatta yet though it is non-dual.

(9:52 PM) Thusness:      insight into anatta is still not there.

(9:52 PM) Thusness:      but don't go around posting question like 'before birth, who are u'

(9:52 PM) Thusness:      if got problem, u go solve for them ah

(9:52 PM) Thusness:      or telling them to drop

(9:53 PM) Thusness:      they can become zombie leh

(9:53 PM) AEN: lol

(9:53 PM) Thusness:      trance like leh

(9:53 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:53 PM) Thusness:      spirit can enter leh

(9:53 PM) Thusness:      don't anyhow go write without not knowing it.

(9:53 PM) AEN: huh really? spirit can enter?

(9:53 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(9:53 PM) AEN: u mean if enter into oblivious

(9:53 PM) Thusness:      yes

(9:53 PM) AEN: then how

(9:53 PM) Thusness:      how what?

(9:53 PM) AEN: i mean how to avoid

(9:54 PM) Thusness:      did u tell ppl to practice this way?

(9:54 PM) AEN: no

(9:54 PM) AEN: lol

(9:54 PM) Thusness:      then?

(9:54 PM) Thusness:      what how?

(9:54 PM) AEN: i mean if i practice or u practice

(9:54 PM) AEN: lol

(9:54 PM) Thusness:      total surrendering with certain chant can get u into that if there is genuine intention to invite.

(9:54 PM) Thusness:      so don't anyhow anyhow

(9:55 PM) AEN: oic so dun chant that chant can liao?

(9:55 PM) Thusness:      it depends

(9:55 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:55 PM) Thusness:      but luminosity of non-dual normally prevent this sort of stuff from happening.

(9:55 PM) Thusness:      when u dropped, u go through various phases

(9:56 PM) Thusness:      especially the cycle of sleep

(9:56 PM) Thusness:      u r going through the cycles via meditation

(9:56 PM) Thusness:      u will and might have images

(9:56 PM) Thusness:      it all depends

(9:56 PM) Thusness:      drop and drop and drop

(9:56 PM) Thusness:      like ur lower half of ur body numb

(9:56 PM) AEN: images of wat

(9:56 PM) AEN: oic

(9:56 PM) Thusness:      dunno

(9:57 PM) Thusness:      it depends on ur conditions

(9:57 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:57 PM) Thusness:      but because in ur case, ur luminosity is already there

(9:57 PM) AEN: but i dun tink i can sustain leh

(9:57 PM) Thusness:      it is prevents u from entering a state of oblivious.

(9:57 PM) Thusness:      not so easy lah

(9:57 PM) AEN: icic

(9:58 PM) Thusness:      only ppl like TWE or Nub...

(9:58 PM) Thusness:      dangerous

(9:58 PM) AEN: hahaha

(9:58 PM) AEN: icic..

(9:58 PM) Thusness:      so don't go around talking when u r not sure.

(9:58 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:58 PM) Thusness:      I tell u and u tell ppl is different.

(9:58 PM) Thusness:      do u see me writing about that in posts?

(9:58 PM) Thusness:      i merely clarify wrong understanding.

(9:59 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:00 PM) AEN:              no wonder last time got ppl experience posession during meditation

(10:00 PM) AEN:              then meet lzls then lzls say better stop meditating liao if meditate more will be worse

(10:00 PM) AEN:              then the other time she said when meditate better sit in front of buddha.. more 'brightness'

(10:00 PM) Thusness:    because the luminosity isn't there.

(10:00 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:01 PM) Thusness:    when there is luminosity, it is difficult.

(10:01 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:02 PM) Thusness:    i told u to drop because u might experience intense luminosity later

(10:02 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:05 PM) AEN:              when there is luminosity, it is difficult. --> yea my master and teachers say when the mind has 'brightness' such things wont happen

(10:06 PM) Thusness:    yes

(10:06 PM) Thusness:    therefore u must see conditions

(10:06 PM) Thusness:    what is that person in...is he suitable?

(10:07 PM) Thusness:    then when there is intensity of brightness, what are the side effect?

(10:07 PM) Thusness:    how to counter it or balance it.

(10:07 PM) Thusness:    and what is the next phase.

(10:08 PM) AEN:              dropping?

(10:09 PM) Thusness:    U might want to try the koan.

(10:09 PM) AEN:              u mean who am i?

(10:09 PM) AEN:              b4 birth who am i

(10:10 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(10:10 PM) AEN:              icic

(10:10 PM) AEN:              but that one also lead to luminosity rite

(10:11 PM) Thusness:    don't worry nothing mystical will happen. :P

(10:11 PM) Thusness:    it is just reconfirming certain experience that u already have.

(10:11 PM) AEN:              lol

(10:11 PM) AEN:              icic

(10:11 PM) Thusness:    except that it is clearer. :)

(10:12 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:13 PM) Thusness:    certain experience it is difficult for u to re-experience it.

(10:14 PM) Thusness:    the koan will help u to relive certain experience and this time will be more clear and u can tell me more.

(10:14 PM) Thusness:    after that, the koan is deemed useless. :)

(10:14 PM) Thusness:    even if u asked again, the same effect will not come.

(10:15 PM) AEN:              back

(10:15 PM) AEN:              oic

(10:15 PM) AEN:              becomes useless?

(10:15 PM) AEN:              but i tot u said last time

(10:15 PM) AEN:              for the ex-monk, the koan will keep profunding his experience

(10:15 PM) AEN:              or something like tat?

(10:18 PM) Thusness:    i think u might have misinterpeted what i said.

(10:18 PM) Thusness:    anyway learn how to drop

(10:18 PM) Thusness:    it is important for u.

(10:18 PM) AEN:              icic..

 

(10:21 PM) Thusness:    does the non-dual experience occur to u again?

(10:21 PM) AEN:              since that day nope.. i also told u yesterday i was asking more like 'who am i'

(10:21 PM) AEN:              and wat i sense is more like 'inner'

(10:21 PM) AEN:              rather than 'outer'

(10:21 PM) Thusness:    why is this so?

(10:22 PM) AEN:              why is wat? inner?

(10:22 PM) Thusness:    why the experience never re-cur?

(10:22 PM) AEN:              dunnu.. din drop enough?

(10:24 PM) Thusness:    no lah

(10:24 PM) AEN:              cos i was inquiring on the 'subject'

(10:24 PM) Thusness:    coz u r thinking stage 2.

(10:25 PM) AEN:              huh

(10:25 PM) Thusness:    :)

(10:25 PM) AEN:              wat u mean.. lol

(10:25 PM) Thusness:    what trigger the experience of fusing into everything

(10:25 PM) AEN:              contemplating death

(10:25 PM) AEN:              the first time

(10:26 PM) AEN:              then the second time.. i tink i just let go or drop

(10:26 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(10:26 PM) Thusness:    anyway learn how to drop.

(10:27 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:27 PM) AEN:              btw u said dropping leads to oblivious

(10:27 PM) Thusness:    not to relive the experience.

(10:27 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(10:27 PM) AEN:              but in my case it seems it leads to intensifying lumionsity?

(10:27 PM) AEN:              lol

(10:27 PM) Thusness:    yes.

(10:27 PM) Thusness:    i want u to let go more and more and not about the luminosity

(10:28 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:29 PM) Thusness:    ur conscious mind does not know but ur subsconcious mind knows.

(10:30 PM) Thusness:    so when u think of what is the meaning of of live as if u never existed, dropping, luminosity...

(10:30 PM) Thusness:    the experience manifest

(10:30 PM) AEN:              subconscious mind knows the experience of luminosity?

(10:30 PM) Thusness:    nope...subconscious knows it from what u have summarized.

(10:31 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:31 PM) Thusness:    if u have not summarized and do accordingly, the experience will not come so fast.

(10:31 PM) Thusness:    it normally takes several years.

(10:31 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:32 PM) Thusness:    but the foundation is not there.  Not as in the case of advaita practitioners.

(10:32 PM) AEN:              oiuc..

(10:32 PM) Thusness:    or zen students.

(10:33 PM) AEN:              icic.. ya bcos of lack of emphasis on teaching rite

(10:33 PM) AEN:              keep pointing to direct experience and non conceptuality

(10:33 PM) Thusness:    yes

(10:33 PM) AEN:              icic

(10:34 PM) Thusness:    if u did what i said last time and u meditate diligently, then it is different.

(10:34 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:35 PM) Thusness:    when ur understanding reaches sufficient depth, what u must have is merely the right practice.

(10:35 PM) Thusness:    then the experience will come.

(10:35 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:35 PM) Thusness:    so it only takes weeks or months for the glimpse to emerge.

(10:36 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:36 PM) Thusness:    for optimistic, it takes years of meditation.

(10:36 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:36 PM) Thusness:    yet he doesn't know what is it.

(10:36 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:36 PM) AEN:              then how about ppl like eckhart tolle :P

(10:36 PM) AEN:              lol

(10:36 PM) AEN:              so sudden

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    but his meditative strength is stronger.

(10:37 PM) AEN:              or ramana

(10:37 PM) AEN:              oic

(10:37 PM) AEN:              ya

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    as the foundation is stronger.

(10:37 PM) AEN:              icic

(10:37 PM) Thusness:    but he has not experienced the 'forms' of awareness.

(10:38 PM) Thusness:    or non-dual as in the case of ken wilber.

(10:38 PM) AEN:              optimistic?

(10:38 PM) AEN:              oic

(10:38 PM) Thusness:    normally he said take 20 yrs.

(10:38 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:38 PM) Thusness:    but what he meant is insight.

(10:38 PM) Thusness:    insight of non-dual but not anatta yet.

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    anatta is the natural state of non-dual accomplished by the right understanding.

(10:39 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:39 PM) AEN:              stage 4 is anatta already?

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    nope

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    stage 5.

(10:39 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    stage 4 is non-dual with insight of longchen.

(10:40 PM) AEN:              so longchen still stage 4?

(10:40 PM) AEN:              longchen not yet anatta?

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    going 5.

(10:40 PM) AEN:              icic

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    is anatta but needs the bahiya sutta stanza.

(10:40 PM) Thusness:    but don't say i said he is stage 4 hah.

(10:40 PM) AEN:              hahaha

(10:40 PM) AEN:              ok

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    if got chance just focus on the bahiya sutta.

(10:41 PM) AEN:              me?

(10:41 PM) AEN:              or him

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    him.

(10:41 PM) AEN:              icic

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    it is different from buddhaghosa stanza.

(10:41 PM) AEN:              how come

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    it is one step further.

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    :)

(10:41 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:41 PM) Thusness:    don't tell u.

(10:42 PM) AEN:              buddhaghosa only anagami, not yet arhat :P

(10:42 PM) Thusness:    like the question i posted to spwn07 and "before birth, who r u"

(10:42 PM) Thusness:    have different implications.

(10:42 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:42 PM) Thusness:    who tell u that?

(10:42 PM) Thusness:    don't anyhow say

(10:42 PM) AEN:              buddhaghosa

(10:42 PM) AEN:              he wrote he's an anagami

(10:42 PM) AEN:              in his book i tink

(10:43 PM) Thusness:    did he say that?

(10:43 PM) AEN:              yea..

(10:43 PM) Thusness:    in the path of purification?

(10:43 PM) AEN:              yea

(10:43 PM) Thusness:    interesting.

(10:44 PM) AEN:              theres another one rather similar

(10:44 PM) AEN:              The Path of Freedom (Vimuttimagga) by The Arahant Upatissa,

(10:44 PM) Thusness:    both stanza are equally important.

(10:44 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:45 PM) Thusness:    but whether one can penetrate into the deeper meaning of bahiya sutta, it depends on yuan.

(10:45 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:47 PM) Thusness:    no need to write that lah

(10:47 PM) Thusness:    just eliminate that post.

(10:47 PM) AEN:              hahaha ok

(10:47 PM) Thusness:    say right undersanding of Buddhism practice is more important.

(10:48 PM) Thusness:    just practice insight meditation from a qualified teacher that is all.

(10:48 PM) Thusness:    whatever said is not suitable.

(10:48 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:48 PM) AEN:              i say that too?

(10:49 PM) Thusness:    why when Buddha taught so clearly the path, u tok so much unrelated stuff.

(10:49 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:49 PM) Thusness:    Whatever i told u and experience till now is more advaita sort of experience.

(10:49 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:49 PM) Thusness:    take out the post.

(10:50 PM) Thusness:    don't say i said this or that.

(10:50 PM) Thusness:    kok ur head.

(10:50 PM) AEN:              lol

(10:50 PM) AEN:              Thusness says:

say right undersanding of Buddhism practice is more important.

Thusness says:

just practice insight meditation from a qualified teacher that is all.

Thusness says:

whatever said is not suitable.

(10:50 PM) AEN:              i say all these?

(10:51 PM) Thusness:    just say yes and look for a qualified masters. 

(10:51 PM) AEN:              yes?

(10:51 PM) Thusness:    Don't say i said this or that.

(10:51 PM) AEN:              Right understanding of Buddhist practice is more important. Just practice insight meditation from a qualified master/teacher. Whatever said is not suitable.

(10:51 PM) AEN:              i say this?

(10:51 PM) Thusness:    Whatever said is not suitable and is not required.

(10:52 PM) AEN:              Sorry, removed a conversation from this post.

 

Right understanding of Buddhist practice is more important. Just practice insight meditation from a qualified master/teacher. Whatever said is not suitable and is not required.

(10:52 PM) AEN:              ok

(10:52 PM) Thusness:    Nevertheless, right understanding of Buddhist practice is most important. Just practice insight meditation from a qualified master/teacher.  That is safest.

(10:53 PM) AEN:              no need "Whatever said is not suitable and is not required.?

(10:54 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(10:54 PM) AEN:              ok

(10:54 PM) Thusness:    u should know very clearly that is buddhist practice or not.

(10:55 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:55 PM) Thusness:    how come it returns back to the previous one.

(10:55 PM) AEN:              u din reload i tink

(10:55 PM) AEN:              press F5

(10:56 PM) Thusness:    nope reloaded

(10:56 PM) AEN:              ok i try reloading

(10:56 PM) AEN:              weird.. server like not responding

(10:57 PM) Thusness:    Whatever i told u is just to let u have some experiences.

(10:57 PM) AEN:              reloaded

(10:57 PM) Thusness:    after that u should not seek fast experiences and practice insight meditation.

(10:57 PM) AEN:              correct leh

(10:57 PM) AEN:              shld be displaying "

 

Sorry, removed a conversation from this post as it is not so suitable.

 

Nevertheless, right understanding of Buddhist practice is most important. Just practice insight meditation from a qualified master/teacher. That is safest.

"

(10:57 PM) Thusness:    yeah

(10:57 PM) AEN:              oic

(10:58 PM) Thusness:    after there is insight into anatta, then vipassana is as natural as it can be.

(10:58 PM) AEN:              icic..

(10:58 PM) Thusness:    however after some clarity of stage 1 and 2 experiences, there is no need to profound it further.

(10:59 PM) Thusness:    just practice insight meditation

(10:59 PM) Thusness:    u will find it easier and contemplate deeply what is the meaning of anatta and emptiness.

(10:59 PM) AEN:              oic..

(10:59 PM) Thusness:    it will provide some foundations for u to move forward...that is all.

(10:59 PM) Thusness:    drop the rest.

(11:00 PM) Thusness:    u don't have to have too intense vivid experiences.

(11:00 PM) Thusness:    just another round of clarity, u will know what i want u to experience.

(11:00 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:01 PM) AEN:              wat u mean

(11:01 PM) Thusness:    then u have a clearer understanding of what i meant.

(11:01 PM) Thusness:    and what advaita practitioner meant.

(11:01 PM) Thusness:    now u should have some clarity of what david carse, ken wilber spoke of non-duality.

(11:01 PM) Thusness:    what is the experience like right?

(11:01 PM) AEN:              yea

(11:02 PM) Thusness:    u also know clearly there is stage 1 and 2 right?

(11:02 PM) AEN:              yup

(11:02 PM) Thusness:    with vivid experiences.

(11:02 PM) Thusness:    though there is no strength in these experiences.

(11:02 PM) Thusness:    there is a 3rd one, that is stage 3.

(11:02 PM) Thusness:    as what i told u in the post.

(11:02 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:03 PM) Thusness:    stage 4 is like stage 2 except with insight.

(11:03 PM) Thusness:    the pathless is seen.

(11:03 PM) Thusness:    it is no more like a stage...but the insight has no deep clarity.

(11:04 PM) Thusness:    propensities need to dissolve to quite sufficiently to go into stage 5 as stated in the bahiya sutta.

(11:04 PM) AEN:              eckhart tolle is like stage 4?

(11:04 PM) Thusness:    that is a deeper insight.

(11:04 PM) AEN:              oic

(11:04 PM) Thusness:    don't ask me lah

(11:04 PM) AEN:              lol

(11:04 PM) Thusness:    to me...ehee...like stage 2. :P

(11:04 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:04 PM) Thusness:    but the strength of sustaining is strong.

(11:04 PM) AEN:              but u said there is constant luminosity of observer and observed is one

(11:04 PM) AEN:              oic

(11:04 PM) Thusness:    tony parsons is stage 4-5.

(11:05 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:05 PM) Thusness:    jeff foster also.

(11:05 PM) Thusness:    observer and observed as one is non-dual experience.

(11:05 PM) Thusness:    stage 2 is non-dual.

(11:05 PM) Thusness:    but there is no insight of no-self.

(11:05 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:06 PM) Thusness:    insight is u know and understand the pathless path of no-self.

(11:06 PM) Thusness:    u see it although it is pathless.

(11:06 PM) Thusness:    u see the path.

(11:06 PM) Thusness:    this is due to insight and therefore there is more permanent lucidity.

(11:06 PM) Thusness:    stage 2 remains as a stage

(11:06 PM) Thusness:    u don't know how to get it.

(11:07 PM) Thusness:    don't know when it comes again.

(11:07 PM) Thusness:    or the path towards it.

(11:07 PM) AEN:              oic ya

(11:07 PM) AEN:              haha

(11:07 PM) Thusness:    longchen knows it.

(11:07 PM) AEN:              oic

(11:07 PM) Thusness:    but needs to further refine it.

(11:07 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:08 PM) Thusness:    but penetrating into the deeper depth of non-dual and into anatta.

(11:08 PM) Thusness:    as stated in the bahiya sutta.

(11:08 PM) Thusness:    then come emptiness.

(11:08 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:08 PM) Thusness:    so u understand more about the various stages?

(11:09 PM) AEN:              yea

(11:09 PM) Thusness:    stage 1 can be very blissful too.

(11:09 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:09 PM) Thusness:    when the meditative strength is there.

(11:09 PM) Thusness:    but there is no understanding of the 'forms'

(11:09 PM) Thusness:    only the pure sense of existence

(11:09 PM) Thusness:    in thought realm.

(11:10 PM) Thusness:    not in the 'forms'.

(11:10 PM) Thusness:    u should know by now.

(11:10 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:10 PM) AEN:              yea

(11:11 PM) Thusness:    it is difficult for ppl who have no experience to know what i meant.

(11:11 PM) Thusness:    but when u have experienced, u will know what i meant.

(11:11 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:19 PM)         Thusness is now Online

 

Session Start: Monday, March 17, 2008

 

(12:56 PM) AEN:              while i was inquiring the koan yesterday i had a brief impression that my conscious presence is everpresent, timeless, eternal, unmoving, formless?

(1:23 PM) AEN: linji says "Get to know your real self. It has no form, no appearance, no root, no basis, no abode, but is lively and buoyant. It responds with versatile facility, but its function cannot be located."

 

Session Start: Monday, March 17, 2008

 

(5:41 PM) Thusness:      not good enough.

(5:41 PM) AEN: icic..

 

Session Start: Monday, March 17, 2008

 

(8:32 PM) Thusness:      u told this evilgold i practice taoism?

(8:33 PM) AEN: maybe last time.. i dunnu lol... but the other day i refer him to u cos he kept asking me taoist things :P

(8:33 PM) AEN: which i dunno

(8:33 PM) Thusness:      Then why refer to me lah.

(8:34 PM) AEN: cos u shld know mah haha

(8:34 PM) Thusness:      Should know doesn't mean I have to teach.

(8:34 PM) AEN: oic

(8:34 PM) Thusness:      and all those stuff can just read from books.

(8:34 PM) AEN: oic.. then i tink u refer him to books then

(8:35 PM) Thusness:      next when the position is not there, it is no good to over claim or to assume a position.

(8:35 PM) Thusness:      This is considered dangerous in taoism.

(8:35 PM) Thusness:      That is, I may not in the correct position to advice and not the right person to advice.

(8:36 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:37 PM) Thusness:      The questions he asked can be gather from a good book.

(8:37 PM) Thusness:      One of them is Thomas Cleary.

(8:37 PM) AEN: oic.. which bk

(8:37 PM) Thusness:      Any book about Taoism by him.

(8:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:38 PM) Thusness:      The essence of Tao cannot be taught.

(8:38 PM) Thusness:      It is like zen or any spiritual practice.

(8:39 PM) Thusness:      It cannot be explained in such a way...

(8:39 PM) Thusness:      tell him to get a good book first.

(8:39 PM) Thusness:      He asked me all those questions that will only lead to further questions.

(8:39 PM) Thusness:      By the way how old is he?

(8:40 PM) AEN: ya i agree.. and he likes to ask alot of qns hahaha

(8:40 PM) AEN: first year in NS

(8:40 PM) AEN: i tink 19

(8:40 PM) AEN: or 20

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      ic

(8:40 PM) Thusness:      The market is damn ridiculous, ur dad got kenna or not?

(8:41 PM) AEN: nv asked..

(8:41 PM) AEN: u?

(8:41 PM) Thusness:      ai...many of my friends kenna.

(8:41 PM) Thusness:      I din really kenna.

(8:41 PM) Thusness:      but have to lost some money next 2 months.

(8:41 PM) AEN: icic..

 

Session Start: Monday, March 17, 2008

 

(11:42 PM) AEN:              hi

(11:42 PM) AEN:              the buddha said regarding the 18 dhatus:

(11:42 PM) AEN:             

 

Now, if anyone were to say,

 

?Aside from this

explanation of totality,

I will preach another totality,?

 

that person

would be speaking empty words,

and being questioned

would not be able to answer.

 

Why is this ?

 

Because that person

is talking about something

outside of all possible knowledge.

(11:43 PM) AEN:              but existence of the 'world' apart from the 18 dhatus can be inferred rite...

(11:44 PM) AEN:              also

(11:45 PM) AEN:              when the 18 dhatus speak of 'objects of cognition' 'objects of touch'

(11:45 PM) AEN:              is the 'objects' refering to external reality

(11:46 PM) Thusness:    u mean u can hv cognition outside 18 datus?

(11:48 PM) AEN:              i mean if totality is only cognised then isnt it like subjective realism

(11:48 PM) AEN:              or subjective idealism

(11:48 PM) Thusness:    is this what u meant?

(11:49 PM) AEN:              huh

(11:49 PM) AEN:              ya

(11:50 PM) Thusness:    obviously u do not understand at all the teaching of buddhism

(11:50 PM) AEN:              haha.. i tink i know the ans but sometimes still a bit confused

(11:51 PM) Thusness:    whatever taught is abt DO & emptiness.

(11:51 PM) Thusness:    anything of an essence is not buddhism

(11:52 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:53 PM) Thusness:    anyway at ur present understanding, it is difficult to go beyond pure subjectivity

(11:53 PM) AEN:              wat u mean by pure subjectivity

(11:54 PM) Thusness:    it is also good for u to hv direct experience of it.

(11:54 PM) Thusness:    advaita

(11:54 PM) AEN:              oic

(11:56 PM) AEN:              actually i kind of know that theres no subject and object and appearances are nondual and conditioned manifestation... but sometimes i still get a bit confused la :P

(11:57 PM) Thusness:    the purpose of buddhism is not to deny any experience but to point out that reality is not what u perceived it to be.

(11:58 PM) Thusness:    when u say u know, actually u don't really understand yet.

(11:58 PM) AEN:              lol

(11:58 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:58 PM) Thusness:    for now just experience non-dual.

(11:59 PM) AEN:              oic

(11:59 PM) Thusness:    it is not easy to arise insight of anatta & emptiness

(11:59 PM) Thusness:    but non-dual insight will help.

(12:00 AM) AEN:             wats the diff

(12:00 AM) AEN:             as in anatta and nondual insight

(12:01 AM) Thusness:    anatta is the peak or natural state of non-dual.

(12:01 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:03 AM) Thusness:    in anatta, u hv the deepest insight of non-dual & knows exactly why non-dual.

(12:03 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:04 AM) Thusness:    see the 'path' of pathlessness

(12:04 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:04 AM) AEN:             huh

(12:04 AM) AEN:             wat is the path of the pathless

(12:04 AM) AEN:             as in no entry and exit?

(12:04 AM) Thusness:    now u cannot know

(12:05 AM) Thusness:    pointless to ask.

(12:05 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:05 AM) AEN:             stage 4 already pathless rite

(12:05 AM) Thusness:    in stage 4, the insight is already there

(12:06 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:06 AM) Thusness:    in stage 5, the insight is clearest

(12:06 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:07 AM) Thusness:    u do not enter stage 5 as a stage

(12:07 AM) AEN:             but as insight?

(12:07 AM) Thusness:    u 'see' it as the natural state of awareness

(12:07 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:09 AM) Thusness:    stage six is the clear understanding of non-inherent aspect of reality

(12:09 AM) Thusness:    the itness completely disappeared

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    it is the experience of the operatmanifestion

(12:10 AM) AEN:             stage stage is the clear understanding of non-inherent aspect of reality --> stage wat?

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    operation of manifestion as DO

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    6

(12:12 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:12 AM) AEN:             itness means wat

(12:12 AM) AEN:             anything having inherent existence?

(12:13 AM) Thusness:    having essence

(12:13 AM) AEN:             like the idea of something inherently existing apart from cognition?

(12:13 AM) Thusness:    yes

(12:13 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:13 AM) Thusness:    no

(12:13 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:13 AM) Thusness:    having essence

(12:13 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:14 AM) Thusness:    inherently existing itself

(12:14 AM) Thusness:    just like 'redness'

(12:14 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:14 AM) Thusness:    u see it. So real.  So colorful

(12:15 AM) Thusness:    right in front of u...

(12:16 AM) Thusness:    it cannot be not belonging to the flower

(12:16 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:16 AM) Thusness:    but in reality it doesn't exist the way u thought it to be

(12:17 AM) Thusness:    in ur mind, deep in u, u still c that way.

(12:18 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:18 AM) Thusness:    redness belongs to the flower

(12:18 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:18 AM) Thusness:    'belong' is the result of inherent view

(12:19 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:20 AM) Thusness:    seeing & taking things inherently

(12:20 AM) AEN:             btw i still tink in terms of 'otherness' like theres something happening at a different location from here, beyond my cognition... yet buddha says the totality is the 18 dhatus. so tats dualistic?

(12:21 AM) AEN:             as in my tinking

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    yes

(12:21 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:22 AM) AEN:             but whenever we infer thinks we have to do tat dualistically rite

(12:22 AM) Thusness:    its like UG krishamurti say abt body

(12:23 AM) AEN:             wat about it

(12:24 AM) Thusness:    there is always only point or moment of contacts

(12:24 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:24 AM) Thusness:    but we think in terms of 'body'

(12:25 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:25 AM) Thusness:    u will not understand the implication & what he meant

(12:25 AM) AEN:             yesterday i was meditating and the thought arise where is the body... there is no body in my experience, only sensations etc. body is 'inferred'

(12:26 AM) Thusness:    unless u r sufficiently stable in bare awareness or insight meditation

(12:26 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:26 AM) Thusness:    yes that is a gd start

(12:27 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:27 AM) AEN:             actually i was doing self inquiry :P

(12:27 AM) AEN:             but at one point i asked tat qn

(12:27 AM) Thusness:    it is the depth of experience

(12:27 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:28 AM) Thusness:    This is because u r trained with right understanding

(12:28 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:29 AM) Thusness:    otherwise u will think in terms of self

(12:29 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:29 AM) Thusness:    so what is sensation?

(12:29 AM) AEN:             any form of awareness?

(12:31 AM) Thusness:    u must practice dropping first

(12:31 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:31 AM) Thusness:    without certain experience,

(12:32 AM) Thusness:    it is impossible to know

(12:32 AM) AEN:             oic..

 

Session Start: Tuesday, March 18, 2008

 

(2:39 AM) AEN: With sustained attention, coarse contactual sensations gradually gave way to subtle vibrations of rapid frequency. Persistent concentration on these vibrations seemed to increase the intensity and field of this experience; awareness of breathing seemed to have totally dissolved into the ‘sea’ of vibration. In a sudden and unexpected moment, however, the field of vibrations disappeared, leaving a pervasive sense of ‘nothingness’ wherein no boundary between the ‘self’ and the environment existed. I had lost all consciousness of bodily sensations and thoughts, and awareness, which was initially clear and present at the start of the practice, now became indistinct and blurred. It was a state in which ‘I’ was not there at all, characterized by the lack rather than presence of clear awareness. While this may be a glimpse of anatta, albeit an imperfect and distorted one, it never had the significance and clarity that the second experience had. -- https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buddhanet.net%2Fanattamed.htm&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Sao7zGYF8WJBKGwtjjFJc600PZ8wpirA52jBAq5V4xo%3D&reserved=0

(3:11 AM) AEN: steven norquist "This struck a chord in me, I set the book down and stared at a paper that was sitting on the table in front of me, after about a minute or two an exciting and frightening thing happened, I disappeared! By that I mean the middle fell right out of the equation. Normally there would be Steve over here looking at the paper on the desk over there, now there was only the experience, "paper" but no Steve over here seeing it. It was clear that the middle that normally separated the paper from Steve did not really exist, there was only the experience, "paper." " experience quite similar lol

 

Session Start: Tuesday, March 18, 2008

 

(5:53 PM) AEN: hi i bought two books

(5:54 PM) AEN: one is maitreya's distinguishing phenomena and pure being

(5:54 PM) AEN: with commentary by miphan

(5:54 PM) AEN: under the guidance of khenpo tsultrim gyamtso rinpoche

(5:54 PM) AEN: the other is Clarifying the natural state by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

(6:09 PM) AEN: oh i just realised khenpo tsultrim gyamtso rinpoche is the one who wrote the article

 

A Teaching on Guru Rinpoche’s Supplication That All Thoughts Be Self-Liberated

(10:38 PM) AEN:              haven read alot.. just came back from bbq

(10:49 PM) AEN:             

It is easy to resolve that (this conscious mind) does not consist of any shape, colour, location, support, or material substance. However, if you take it to be a definable entity that is aware and empty and you remain quietly in that state, you are still unresolved, since that is the meditative mood of stillness. Therefore, make mandala offerings, supplicate with deep devotion and investigate each instance of how it is aware, how it is empty and what its real mode is.

 

Through this you may find that mind is not comprised of a concrete or material substance and therefore has no shape or colour, no dwelling place or support. You may also understand that it is an aware emptiness that defies any description of being such-and-such -- it is inexpressible and yet it can be experienced.

 

When that is the case, the lama should try to present confusing statements. If the meditator's understanding is merely theory or hearsay it will be inconsistent and will not withstand scrutiny. If it is personal experience, it will converge on one point even when he is unable to articulate with traditional

(10:49 PM) AEN:              words. When this happens, the meditator has reached personal experience.

 

Even so, there are eloquent and articulate meditators who lack personal experience. There are also experienced and tongue-tied meditators who are unable to explain. The lama should therefore let them thoroughly investigate and resolve this fully through real experience.

 

While in the previous state of lucid and thoughtfree shamatha, as before, look directly into your conscious mind. It is a wakefulness for which no words suffice. It is not a definable entity, but at the same time, it is a self-knowing aware emptiness that is clear, lucid and awake. Sustain this without distraction.

(10:54 PM) AEN:              from another part:

(10:54 PM) AEN:             

 

 

.

.

.

 

Next, in order to continue to gain personal experience, examine a particular thought or perception. You may now say, "it does not have a shape, color, or definable identity. The identity of mind is simply an aware emptiness!" Or you may deliver some other piece of theoretical understanding.

 

However, it isn't certain what you mean by aware emptiness. Do you mean an aware emptiness that happens after a thought event has ceased or dissolved? Or is it an aware emptiness while the thought is present? In the latter case, you may say the state is aware, but it is meaningless to say it is empty. Scrutinize in this way and continue examining.

 

No matter what kind of thought occurs, its experience is, in itself, something unidentifiable -- it is unobstructedly aware and yet not conceptualizing. As for perceptions, they are a mere impression of unobstructed presence, which is insubstantial and not a clinging to a solid reality. They are hard to describe as being such-and-such, and when you understand them to be this way you have reached personal experience.

 

Without getting distracte

(10:54 PM) AEN:              Without getting distracted then, simply sustain this aware emptiness that is an unidentifiable awareness, also referred to as a perceiving emptiness that is perception devoid of a self-nature.

 

Someone may say, "When I look directly into a thought or perception, it dissolves and becomes an aware emptiness." This is a case of not having established certainty about the nature of thoughts and perceptions, but rather of using the idea of aware emptiness as an antidote against them.

(10:57 PM) Thusness:    quite good

(10:59 PM) AEN:              then there are quite a few pointing out instruction.. like actual pointing out of the innate, pointing out of the innate mind essence, etc etc

(10:59 PM) AEN:              and one of them are pointing out innate thinking and another pointing out innate perception.. which i tink is about non duality

(10:59 PM) AEN:              for example

(11:00 PM) Thusness:    The mind essence that is empty is most difficult to understand.  More difficult to experience than anatta

(11:06 PM) AEN:              Pointing Out Innate Thinking

 

Second, the meditator should now assume the correct posture in front of (the master, and be told the following): “Let your mind remain in its natural way. When thoughts have subsided, your mind is an intangible, aware emptiness. Be undistracted and look directly into the identity of this naked state!

 

“At this moment, allow a feisty thought, such as delight, to take form. The very moment it vividly occurs, look directly into its identity from within the state of aware emptiness.

 

“Now, is this thought the intangible and naked state of aware emptiness? Or is it absolutely no different from the identity of innate mind-essence itself? Look!”

 

Let the meditator look for a short while.

 

The meditator may say, “It is the aware emptiness. There seems to be no difference.” If so, ask:

 

“Is it an aware emptiness after the thought has dissolved? Or is it an aware emptiness by driving away the thought by meditation? Or is the vividness of the thought itself and aware emptiness?”

 

If the meditator says it is like one of the first two cases, he has not cleared up th

(11:07 PM) AEN:              If the meditator says it is like one of the first two cases, he has not cleared up the former uncertainties and should therefore be set to resolve this for a few days.

 

On the other hand, if he personally experiences it to belike the latter case, he has seen the identity of thought and can therefore be given the following pointing-out instruction:

 

“When you look into a thought’s identity, without having to dissolve the thought and without having to force it out by meditation, the vividness of the thought is itself the indescribable and naked state of aware emptiness. We call this “Seeing the natural face of innate thought”, or, “Thought dawns as dharmakaya.”

“Previously, when you determined the thought’s identity and when you investigated the calm and the moving mind, you found that there was nothing other than this intangible single mind that is a self-knowing, natural awareness. It is just like the analogy of water and waves.

(11:07 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:10 PM) Thusness:    what is the example?

(11:10 PM) AEN:              i just pasted above :P

(11:10 PM) AEN:              u din receive?

(11:11 PM) AEN:              'pointing out innate thinking'

(11:11 PM) Thusness:    it said for exmple

(11:12 PM) AEN:              did u see Pointing Out Innate Thinking

 

Second, the meditator should now assume the correct posture in front of (the master, and be told the following): “Let your mind remain in its natural way. When thoughts have subsided, your mind is an intangible, aware emptiness. Be undistracted and look directly into the identity of this naked state!

etc etc

(11:12 PM) AEN:              never receive?

(11:13 PM) Thusness:    nv

(11:13 PM) AEN:              ok continue from there:

(11:13 PM) AEN:              “At this moment, allow a feisty thought, such as delight, to take form. The very moment it vividly occurs, look directly into its identity from within the state of aware emptiness.

(11:13 PM) AEN:              “Now, is this thought the intangible and naked state of aware emptiness? Or is it absolutely no different from the identity of innate mind-essence itself? Look!”

(11:13 PM) AEN:              Let the meditator look for a short while.

(11:13 PM) AEN:              The meditator may say, “It is the aware emptiness. There seems to be no difference.” If so, ask:

(11:13 PM) AEN:              “Is it an aware emptiness after the thought has dissolved? Or is it an aware emptiness by driving away the thought by meditation? Or is the vividness of the thought itself an aware emptiness?”

(11:13 PM) AEN:              If the meditator says it is like one of the first two cases, he has not cleared up the former uncertainties and should therefore be set to resolve this for a few days.

(11:13 PM) AEN:              On the other hand, if he personally experiences it to belike the latter case, he has seen the identity of thought and can therefore be given the following pointing-out instruction:

(11:13 PM) AEN:              “When you look into a thought’s identity, without having to dissolve the thought and without having to force it out by meditation, the vividness of the thought is itself the indescribable and naked state of aware emptiness. We call this “Seeing the natural face of innate thought”, or, “Thought dawns as dharmakaya.”

(11:13 PM) AEN:              “Previously, when you determined the thought’s identity and when you investigated the calm and the moving mind, you found that there was nothing other than this intangible single mind that is a self-knowing, natural awareness. It is just like the analogy of water and waves.

(11:13 PM) AEN:              etc...

(11:14 PM) AEN:              then theres also innnate pointing of perception

(11:16 PM) Thusness:    This is very good!

(11:16 PM) Thusness:    This is anatta.

(11:16 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:17 PM) Thusness:    from who?

(11:17 PM) AEN:              Clarifying The Natural State by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

(11:18 PM) AEN:              if im not wrong there are two series and same cover design, only difference in color

(11:18 PM) AEN:              the other is by Thrangu Rinpoche i tink

(11:18 PM) Thusness:    however this must be extended to all 6 senses

(11:18 PM) AEN:              yea i only copied the innate pointing of thinking

(11:19 PM) Thusness:    Actually it is just insight that is all.

(11:19 PM) AEN:              there is also perception... where it uses visual perception

(11:19 PM) AEN:              oic

(11:19 PM) Thusness:    it cannot be attained as a state.

(11:20 PM) Thusness:    only as an insight.  Once bahiya sutta is understood

(11:20 PM) AEN:              ...."Previously you cleared up uncertainties when you looked into the identity of a perception and resolved that perceptions are mind. Accordingly, the perception is not outside and the mind is not inside. It is merely, and nothing other than, this empty and aware mind that appears as a perception. It is exactly like the example of a dream-object and the dreaming mind..."

(11:20 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:20 PM) Thusness:    it is a natural state

(11:20 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:22 PM) Thusness:    empty luminosity

(11:22 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:22 PM) Thusness:    but must be understood from DO.

(11:23 PM) Thusness:    The first 2 cases is 'I Amness'

(11:23 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:24 PM) Thusness:    I m glad that it is stated.

(11:26 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:27 PM) AEN:              oh wait

(11:27 PM) AEN:              clarifyign the natural state is not in two series, though it has same cover design as 'Crystal Clear' by thrangu rincpoeh

(11:27 PM) AEN:              rinpoche

(11:27 PM) AEN:              lol

(11:28 PM) Thusness:    where u get this?

(11:28 PM) Thusness:    do I hv the book?

(11:28 PM) AEN:              ya the same qn is also asked when allowing visual perception such as mountain and a houe to be vividly experienced, and the books says, "Let the meditator look. He may say, Theres no difference. Its an intangible, aware emptienss." If so, then ask:

(11:29 PM) AEN:              "Is it an awre emptiness after hte perceived image has disappered? Or is the image an awre emptiness by means of cultivating the aware emptiness? Or is the perceived image itself an aware emptiness?"

(11:31 PM) AEN:              then he goes on to say the fist two cases is tat the meditators has not thoroughly investigate the above and should be once more sent to meditate and resolve this. But if he does experience that the vividly perceived visual image itself -- unidentifiable in any way other than as a mere persence of unconfined perception -- is an aware emptiness, the master should then give this pointing out instruction: "When you vividly perceive a mountain or a house, no matter how this perception appears, it does not need to disappear or be stopped. Rather, while this perception is experienced, it is itself an intangible, empty awareness. This is called seeing the identity of perception.

(11:31 PM) AEN:              i got it from Evergreen just now

(11:31 PM) AEN:              nope

(11:31 PM) AEN:              the bk u lent me was Crystal Clear

(11:31 PM) AEN:              but no 'Clarifying the Natural State'

(11:31 PM) Thusness:    ic

(11:33 PM) Thusness:    Anyway luminosity-emptiness cannot be separated

(11:33 PM) AEN:              it also talks about the 4 yogas, simplicity, one taste, non meditation etc

(11:33 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:33 PM) Thusness:    u must first understand anatta first.

(11:34 PM) Thusness:    I like it.

(11:34 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:34 PM) AEN:              it has guides to practice of shamatha and vipashyana

(11:35 PM) Thusness:    Emptiness must be understood without essence & operate like DO.

(11:35 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:38 PM) Thusness:    But u must be able to correctly discern stage 1 & 2

(11:38 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:39 PM) Thusness:    case 1 & 2 is just about stage 1

(11:41 PM) Thusness:    when a person experience stage 2, he might mistaken it that he has understood what that is described above.

(11:41 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:44 PM) Thusness:    when u read, u r able to discern correctly

(11:44 PM) Thusness:    that is gd.

(11:44 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:44 PM) Thusness:    didn't waste my effort ...haha

(11:44 PM) AEN:              lol

(11:45 PM) Thusness:    normal practitioners even after stage 2 will not understand

(11:45 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:46 PM) Thusness:    and is unable to appreciate the passage

(11:46 PM) AEN:              i bought another book which is also all about nonduality

(11:46 PM) AEN:              oic

(11:47 PM) Thusness:    buddhism or advaita

(11:48 PM) AEN:              buddhism

(11:49 PM) AEN:              its called "maitreya's distinguishing phenomena and pure being"

(11:49 PM) AEN:              its a text by maitreya bodhisattva

(11:49 PM) AEN:              commentaries by Mipham

(11:49 PM) AEN:              i bought it bcos it contains some stuff which i was just contemplating on yesterday

(11:49 PM) AEN:              lol

(11:49 PM) Thusness:    is it good?

(11:49 PM) AEN:              haven read a lot yet... wait i copy for u some parts

(11:53 PM) AEN:              ..."Those who cling compulsively to the existence of outer objects claim, "Outer objects exist, because no one can deny that anything composed of atoms, such as mountains and any other object observed in common, exists." But that is not how it is.

(11:54 PM) AEN:              Given what appear to be outer and perceivable in common, such as mountains and so on, as the postulate subject, these are not outer referents discrete from the inner consciousness and existing with a material essence, because they are the inner perceiving awareness itself appearing as the image of this and that outer referent for those whose operative habitual tendenceis correspond, just like forms in a dream.

(11:54 PM) AEN:              What are being called "outer objects observed in common" are not referents existing as something extrinsic to or other t han consciousness, because they are only apparently experienced as common by a variety of beings whose mindstreams are not identical. But this is what proves that they are nothing other than differeing perceptions of differing mindstreams.

(11:54 PM) AEN:              And how does it prove that? What are claimed to be "factors observed in common" are proposed as providing the proof for the existence of outer referents. But these can only be posited as "outer referents experiecned in common" due to a similarity in the character of their appearance from the subjective viewpoint of distinct mindstreams. But that means these appearances are the private impressions of mindstreams which differ among themselves. And that means they could never constitute common experience.

(11:54 PM) AEN:              Thus to say, "There are outer objects which are something other than a mere appearance (or impression)" and to say, "Here is one expereinced in common" could never be demonstrated logically, since, to do so, one would have to posit the existence of objects other than those which appear to a mind. But it would make no sense to posit an object that could not appear to any mind, since it could not be evaluated through valid cognition.

(11:54 PM) AEN:              still typing.. hehe

(11:57 PM) AEN:             

On subjecting this so-called "common experience" to critical scrutiny, the reason for claiming it to be "common" turns out to be built on the similarity of appearance with respect to mindstreams which themselves differ, so it follows that, even though there is a similarity in the appearance, its underlying cause includes no necessity of a

(11:57 PM) AEN:              specific outer common referent literally existing, just as corresponding appearances manifest for spectators under the influence of the charm of an illusionist. Similarly, for creatures whose operative habitual tendenceis correspond, not only will environements and so on have a similar appearance for as long as the energy of those habitual

(11:57 PM) AEN:              tendenceies has not been exhausted, but, what is more, the specific cause for their appearing to be similar will not be existence of a referent on the outside. Just as something which one type of being sees as water will be seen as existing under another apperance by others among the six types of beings whose karmic impressions differ, anything perceived should be understood to be neither more nor less than a self-manifestation of the mentality internal to a specific observer.

(11:57 PM) Thusness:    The first book better

(11:57 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:58 PM) AEN:              the second bk is more theoretical i tink

(11:58 PM) Thusness:    yes

(11:58 PM) Thusness:    first is a meditative & intuitive experience

(11:59 PM) AEN:              btw those are comments, not the real text by maitreya

(11:59 PM) AEN:              icic

(11:59 PM) AEN:              the real text is also included tho

(11:59 PM) Thusness:    second is to logically understand something from a buddhist perspective

(12:00 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:00 AM) Thusness:    it is not an arising of prajna wisdom

(12:00 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:01 AM) Thusness:    u can take first book as ur guide.

(12:01 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:02 AM) Thusness:    lend it to me once u finished

(12:02 AM) AEN:             ok

(12:09 AM) Thusness:    even after anatta experience

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    u must practice dropping especially as a lay.

(12:11 AM) AEN:             oic..

 

(12:17 AM) AEN:             oh i just realised the author of Clarifying the Natural State, Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, is not a modern master.. he's 16th century master

(12:18 AM) AEN:             the book is translated from tibetan by Thrangu Rinpoche

(12:18 AM) Thusness:    ic

(12:19 AM) AEN:             "The words of Dakpo Tashi Namgyal are unique. Adorned with plenty of pithy advice out of his personal experience, practitioners are greatly benefited by his instructions on how to remove hindrances and progress further. His methods for practicing Mahamudra are preeminent. This book is indispensable as it focuses exclusively on practice."

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    Tibetan masters seem to hv deeper insight.

(12:19 AM) AEN:             -- Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche

(12:19 AM) AEN:             oic

(12:19 AM) AEN:             hmm how come :P

(12:20 AM) AEN:             bcos of the teachings?

(12:20 AM) Thusness:    no insight

(12:20 AM) AEN:             huh

(12:21 AM) Thusness:    I m referring to insight

(12:21 AM) AEN:             o icic..

(12:22 AM) Thusness:    I c many dualistic teachings nowadays

(12:22 AM) AEN:             oh i just found out Crystal Clear is Thrangu Rinpoche's "loose commentaries on "Clarifying the Natural State"" based on talks

(12:22 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:23 AM) Thusness:    in buddhist circles

(12:23 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:23 AM) Thusness:    esp zen

(12:23 AM) AEN:             oic but a few zen masters are quite enlightened rite

(12:24 AM) Thusness:    yes

(12:24 AM) AEN:             oic so y isit that many zen ppl are dualistic

(12:24 AM) AEN:             due to lack of proper teaching or guidance or concept?

(12:25 AM) Thusness:    yes

(12:25 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:35 AM)         Thusness is now Offline

(12:40 AM) AEN:             btw u know mahamudra also practices self inquiry?

(12:40 AM) AEN:             (C) Finally, practice the meditation by looking directly at self as guided by the question ‘Who am I?’ This meditation was taught by Milarepa. Rest in this non-dual awareness.

(12:40 AM) AEN:             so not only zen :P actually theravada also... particularly thai forest tradition, ajahn chah that side

(1:07 AM) AEN: Hi

 

Very interesting posts.

 

I'm just speaking from direct experience about the awareness, which seems relevant to this debate too.

 

I would call it "aware nothingness" really, as it feels empty and without identity.

 

Yet time and again, it always feels to be the same, stable and unchanging. And recalling distant memories, it feels the same too. Perhaps that's why Vedantins describe it so. It spontaineously realises itself several times a day and it feels like it's always there too. The dimension within which all experience seems to happen, within which consciousness changes through the day.

 

But how can this aware nothingness feel so unchanging if it is not so? I am open to it being impermanent, but it does not feel like this.

 

I'd also be very grateful if someone could simply describe how Buddha nature is impermanent too.

 

Many thanks

 

Metta

Dolphin

(1:07 AM) AEN: --- https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D66843&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Ej8p7v1I7pd2aErHzqciSEQmwYYFIE%2FBdZvtNemig%2BQ%3D&reserved=0

(1:49 AM) AEN: btw wat is the problem with 'Crystal Clear' which u said last time?

(3:18 AM) AEN: OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Well, if I’m not the memories and I’m not the things that happened

to me and I’m not my story, then who am I?

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): That's the question. And, in fact, who am I is

actually a question that in some spiritual -- eastern spiritual teachings is used as a kind of

(3:18 AM) AEN: mantra or pointer that you repeat to yourself in a meditation setting. So you sit down and

you ask yourself, who am I? And you're not supposed to answer that question. You leave the

blank after the question. In that blank, in that empty space, if it works, if this practice works

as it should, you suddenly get a sense of your own presence…

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Mm-hmm.

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): …that has nothing to do with your thought

processes. Your own sense of conscious presence, your being-ness, your presence, which

part of which is actually also your physical presence, but it's a sense of aliveness.

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Mm-hmm.

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): Every cell of the body becomes part of that

sense of presence and aliveness. So, as we state here, we can (unintelligible) if we can get a

little glimpse of that. A glimpse of our own presence, which again is nothing to do with

thinking. It is deeper than thinking.

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): How do we get a glimpse of it sitting here?

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): We get a glimpse of it. I recommend

(3:19 AM) AEN: I recommend that see if

you can feel the inner aliveness in your body. As (unintelligible), is there any sense in which

you can feel that there is an aliveness in every cell of the body? Now, if people…

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): But isn't my mind thinking that?

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): Your mind may be thinking, yes, of course, I’m

alive.

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Like in the book you say, feel the aliveness in your hands. Okay.

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): Yes.

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): When I go to feel the aliveness in my hand, I can't feel the aliveness

in my hand unless I had a mind in which to feel that.

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): No. So, if you close your eyes and you hold out

your hand like this…

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yes, yes.

ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): …and then you -- the question…

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): You feel this -- the vibrating sensation in your hand.

(3:20 AM) AEN: ...ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR, "A NEW EARTH"): So the moment you enter the inner aliveness of

the body, you sense – there is a sense of self that is deeper than thinking. You are that

aliveness that you feel. You are that alive presence. And so -- and this applies whether your

past or your personal history is a happy one or an unhappy one. For most people, it's a very

mixed story.

(1:30 PM) Thusness:      Dolphin is not bad but the way u answer must be more careful and precise.

(1:30 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:32 PM) Thusness:      I read his reply.

(1:32 PM) Thusness:      need to explain more.

(1:32 PM) Thusness:      He seems to agree in his latest mail.

(1:33 PM) AEN: icic.. seems to agree with?

(1:33 PM) AEN: im just starting to read now

(1:36 PM) AEN: hmm

(1:36 PM) AEN: so how to reply him

(1:37 PM) Thusness:      he said he re-read and more deeply.  "But permanent, as the Advaitins say, the awareness it is not necesarily so, even though it has the appearance of it in direct human experience."

 

(1:38 PM) Thusness:      What he meant by this?

(1:38 PM) Thusness:      I read it as he thinks although it appears permanent in direct human experience, it is not so.

(1:40 PM) AEN: wat he means ah

(1:41 PM) AEN: oh lol u asking the same thing

(1:41 PM) Thusness:      what he said is he begin to understand why it is impermanent.

(1:42 PM) Thusness:      only in appearance it is permanent though in direct human experience it seems to be permanent.

(1:42 PM) Thusness:      I will tell u how to answer why...going to makan.

(1:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:43 PM) AEN: ok

(1:43 PM) Thusness:      for him, u must answer more carefully.

(1:44 PM) AEN: icic..

(1:44 PM) Thusness:      Quote what i said in the url and link it with views.  The relationship between views and consciousness.

(1:44 PM) Thusness:      How it distort an experience and make it appears permanent.

(1:45 PM) Thusness:      Tok to u after I makan.

(1:45 PM) AEN: ok..

(1:45 PM) AEN: which url

(1:45 PM) AEN: oh

(1:45 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fawakeningtoreality.blogspot.com%2F2008%2F02%2Fthusnesss-reply-to-longchen-at.html&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GV%2BVlTfxXv0pT%2B9Gz6S7%2BLvN4ac7QPN0Ndk3%2F4mYbCY%3D&reserved=0

(1:46 PM) AEN: The Link Between Non-Duality and Emptiness ?

(1:50 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(2:37 PM) Thusness:      no

(2:38 PM) AEN: oic which url

(2:38 PM) AEN: u mean the buddha nature is not I AM

(2:39 PM) Thusness:      yes

(2:39 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:42 PM) AEN: u mean link it with karmic propensities?

(2:43 PM) Thusness:      yes

(2:52 PM) Thusness:      r u denying the "I AMness" experience?

(2:54 PM) AEN: u mean in the post?

(2:54 PM) AEN: no

(2:54 PM) AEN: its more like the nature of 'i am' rite

(2:54 PM) Thusness:      what is being denied?

(2:54 PM) AEN: the dualistic understanding?

(2:55 PM) Thusness:      yes it is the wrong understanding of that experience.  Just like 'redness' of a flower.

(2:55 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:55 PM) Thusness:      Vivid and seems real and belongs to the flower.  It only appears so, it is not so.

(2:57 PM) Thusness:      When we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there is thoughts, no thinker.  There is sound, no hearer and there is rebirth, but no permanent soul being reborn.

(2:58 PM) Thusness:      It is puzzling because of our deeply held view of seeing things inherently where dualism is a subset of this 'inherent' seeing.

(2:59 PM) Thusness:      So what is the problem?

(2:59 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:59 PM) AEN: the deeply held views?

(2:59 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(2:59 PM) Thusness:      what is the problem?

(3:01 PM) AEN: back

(3:02 PM) Thusness:      The problem is the root cause of suffering lies in this deeply held view.  We search and are attached because these views.  This is the relationship between 'view' and 'consciousness'.  There is no escape.  With inherent view, there is always 'I' and 'Mine'.  There is always 'belongs' like the 'redness' belongs to the flower.

(3:02 PM) Thusness:      Therefore despite all transcendental experiences, there is no liberation without right understanding.

(3:02 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:03 PM) AEN: but that guy said something like the 'I'ness illusion is lost or something

(3:03 PM) AEN: though he still tinks its permanent and formless

(3:03 PM) Thusness:      u don't have to care what is said lah.

(3:03 PM) AEN: hahaha

(3:03 PM) AEN: ok

(3:08 PM) AEN: he thinks awareness is the void background of experiences

(3:08 PM) AEN: even though he does treat it as 'self'

(3:08 PM) Thusness:      doesn't

(3:09 PM) AEN: ya

(3:09 PM) Thusness:      but after reading the url, he knows what u meant.

(3:09 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:09 PM) Thusness:      The subtlety of the 'bond' cannot be underestimated.

(3:10 PM) AEN: icic..

 

Session Start: Wednesday, March 19, 2008

 

(3:16 PM) AEN: btw did u msg me after my 'icic', cos my msn crashed

(3:16 PM) Thusness:      When we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there can be thoughts without thinker; sound without hearer and there is rebirth, without permanent soul being reborn.  But this is an experiential fact when we are free from the ‘bond’ of labels and symbols with bare and naked awareness, we will realized that it is ‘views’ that blind us from seeing what reality is.

 

(3:17 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:18 PM) Thusness:      What is the problem?

It is the deeply held ‘inherent’ view that creates all the searches and attachment.  That is as long as he sees inherently, we will be attached.  We will always search and takes things in the form of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ because this is the nature of dualistic and inherent thought. 

 

(3:19 PM) Thusness:     

What is the problem?

It is the deeply held ‘inherent’ view that creates all the searches and attachments.  That is, as long as he sees inherently, we will be attached.  We will always search and see in the form of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ because this is the nature of dualistic and inherent thought. 

 

(3:19 PM) Thusness:      Better. :)

(3:20 PM) Thusness:      Summarize and post to him.  See whether that helps. :)

(3:20 PM) AEN: ok..

(3:22 PM) AEN: all these also hor:

(3:22 PM) AEN:

(2:55 PM) Thusness: Vivid and seems real and belongs to the flower.  It only appears so, it is not so.

(2:57 PM) Thusness: When we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there is thoughts, no thinker.  There is sound, no hearer and there is rebirth, but no permanent soul being reborn.

(2:58 PM) Thusness: It is puzzling because of our deeply held view of seeing things inherently where dualism is a subset of this 'inherent' seeing.

(3:23 PM) Thusness:      Buddhism transform the 'permanent' into 'anatta and emptiness' without compromising the experience.  Nothing is lost; But experientially it becomes most vivid and clear without being 'bonded' by inherent views.

(3:23 PM) Thusness:      u summarized then show me.  Good for u also.

(3:23 PM) Thusness:      I go rest first. :P

(3:23 PM) AEN: oic..

(3:28 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(4:13 PM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D66843%26st%3D0%26p%3D907822%26%23entry907822&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WUnvK%2B5pVmigqLxEE00pxSLzPXK4aEV1joTd9PTY%2BTI%3D&reserved=0

(4:31 PM) Thusness:      wrong

(4:38 PM) AEN: oic then how

(4:39 PM) Thusness:      wait...correcting

(4:39 PM) AEN: ok

(4:55 PM) Thusness:      like i write like that. :P

(4:55 PM) Thusness:     

The experience of pristine awareness only appears permanent, unchanging and independent.

The notion of this vast permanent void background where phenomena pops in and out leaving this void aware/witnessing background unchanged, is in fact an illusion.   This is the result of a deeply held view rather than an experientially truth.

(4:55 PM) Thusness:      Buddhism replaces these attributes ' permanence, unchanging and independent ' into 'anatta (no-self) and sunyata (emptiness)' without compromising the experience of Presence. Nothing is lost; but it becomes most vivid and clear experientially without being 'bonded' by inherent views.  There is no denial of the experience, only correctly understand the true nature of that experience.

(4:56 PM) Thusness:      Like a red flower that is vividly clear and right in front of an observer, the ‘redness’ only appears to ‘belong’ to the flower, it is in actuality not so. Vision of red does not arise in all animal species (dogs cannot perceive colours) nor is the ‘redness’ is an attribute of the mind.  If given a 'quantum eyesight' to look into the atomic structure,

(4:57 PM) Thusness:      there is similarly no attribute ‘redness’ anywhere found, only almost complete space/void with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever Appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, or 'redness'. Whatever arises is the indivisibility of luminosity (luminous clarity, awareness) and emptiness (empty of inherent existence).

 

(4:57 PM) Thusness:      The problem is the root cause of suffering lies in this deeply held view of seeing things inherently where dualistic view is a subset of it.  It may not be obvious but even ‘searching’ and ‘attachments’ are the result of inherent views.  This is the subtlety of the relationship between 'views' and 'consciousness'. With inherent view, there is always 'I',

(4:57 PM) Thusness:      'mine' and all these 'belongs' like the 'redness' ‘belonging’ to the flower.  There is no escape. 

 

(4:57 PM) Thusness:      What is the problem?

Therefore despite all transcendental experiences, there is no liberation without right understanding. The subtlety of the 'bond' cannot be underestimated.  When we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there can be thoughts without thinker; sound without hearer and there is rebirth, without a permanent soul being passed on.

(4:57 PM) Thusness:      But this is an experiential fact when we are free from the 'bond' of labels and symbols.  Impermanence yet there is continuity is only illogical when we attempt to forcefully into a dualistic framework.

With the strength of bare attention and sustained naked awareness, we will realize that it is 'views' that blind us from seeing what reality is.

 

(4:58 PM) Thusness:      That said, presently I am going through rather similar experiences as you and recently I get to have a vivid glimpse in term of real experience of what that is being described in stage 2 of my friend's six stages of experience  https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fawakeningtoreality.blogspot.com%2F200...experience.html&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5I7RqwmFbRNxMHLR%2FBxvuHyfFkYM%2BjfxpVrRDYV2JWc%3D&reserved=0.  Do take a casual read if you have time.  Nothing really intense.  Hope that helps!

 

(5:03 PM) AEN: back

(5:03 PM) AEN: like i write like that. :P --> hahahaha

(5:04 PM) Thusness:      ahha...

(5:04 PM) Thusness:      i send u the file. :P

(5:04 PM) AEN: okie

(5:06 PM) Thusness:      Initiated a file transfer

(5:06 PM)           You have successfully received emptinessExplaination2.doc from Thusness.

(5:08 PM) Thusness:      can still change?

(5:08 PM) AEN: yea

(5:08 PM) AEN: change which part

(5:09 PM) Thusness:      huh?

(5:09 PM) Thusness:      i thought i send u the file?

(5:09 PM) AEN: huh

(5:09 PM) AEN: yea u sent me

(5:09 PM) AEN: u want to change something rite

(5:09 PM) Thusness:      just replace it.

(5:09 PM) AEN: ok replace which part

(5:09 PM) Thusness:      all

(5:10 PM) AEN: oh i tot u still wanted to change further

(5:10 PM) AEN: ORH

(5:10 PM) AEN: haha u mean the 2 hours

(5:10 PM) AEN: ok

(5:10 PM) AEN: yea now only 1+ hours past

(5:10 PM) Thusness:      Incorherent

(5:12 PM) AEN: updated

(5:12 PM) AEN: huh u mean the previous one or current one

(5:12 PM) Thusness:      the previous one

(5:12 PM) AEN: icic

(5:12 PM) AEN: a bit slow still uploading

(5:12 PM) AEN: updated

(5:16 PM) Thusness:      Impermanence yet there is continuity is only illogical when we attempt to forcefully into a dualistic framework.

(5:16 PM) Thusness:      this line:

(5:16 PM) Thusness:      Impermanence yet there is continuity is only illogical when we attempt to forcefully our experience into a dualistic framework.

(5:17 PM) Thusness:      Amend: Impermanence yet there is continuity is only illogical when we attempt to forcefully fit our experience into a dualistic framework.

(5:18 PM) AEN: ok

(5:21 PM) Thusness:      Whatever arises is the indivisibility of luminosity (luminous clarity, awareness) and emptiness (empty of inherent existence).

(5:21 PM) Thusness:      Change this line to:

(5:21 PM) Thusness:      -- merely luminous yet empty.

(5:23 PM) AEN: Whatever arises is merely luminous yet empty.

(5:23 PM) AEN: ?

(5:24 PM) AEN: Whatever appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, or “redness”... merely luminous yet empty.

(5:24 PM) AEN: ?

(5:24 PM) Thusness:      Whatever appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, or “redness” --merely luminous yet empty.

(5:24 PM) AEN: ok

(5:28 PM) Thusness:      much more coherent. :P

(5:29 PM) AEN: lol

(5:29 PM) Thusness:      also help u understand better

(5:29 PM) AEN: icic..

(5:29 PM) AEN: ya

 

Session Start: Wednesday, March 19, 2008

 

(6:16 PM) AEN: With sustained attention, coarse contactual sensations gradually gave way to subtle vibrations of rapid frequency. Persistent concentration on these vibrations seemed to increase the intensity and field of this experience; awareness of breathing seemed to have totally dissolved into the ‘sea’ of vibration. In a sudden and unexpected moment, however, the field of vibrations disappeared, leaving a pervasive sense of ‘nothingness’ wherein no boundary between the ‘self’ and the environment existed. I had lost all consciousness of bodily sensations and thoughts, and awareness, which was initially clear and present at the start of the practice, now became indistinct and blurred. It was a state in which ‘I’ was not there at all, characterized by the lack rather than presence of clear awareness. While this may be a glimpse of anatta, albeit an imperfect and distorted one, it never had the significance and clarity that the second experience had. -- https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buddhanet.net%2Fanattamed.htm&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Sao7zGYF8WJBKGwtjjFJc600PZ8wpirA52jBAq5V4xo%3D&reserved=0

(6:17 PM) AEN:

 

This experience occurred, again, during the practice of conscious breathing. Following a period of focussed attention on the breath, I started suffusing the whole body with awareness, all the while keeping the breath at the background of my mind. Awareness was light, open, and pervasive, giving rise to a deepening sense of joy and ease. Gradually and gently, it seemed as if the awareness, the breath, and the blissful sensations of the body merged into one, leaving no solid ‘self’ or ‘experiencer’ behind or within this flowing experience of clarity and non-thought. It was a profoundly invigorating ‘non-experience’ which left a deep and lasting impression on me. It made me think of its resemblance to what Thich Nhat Hanh has described as the anatta experience.

(6:17 PM) AEN:

 

Another interesting experience that bear a relation to anatta occurred on a particular occasion when I was at the beach. On this occasion, the sea breeze was blowing with great strength and its extreme chill sent shivers down my spine and through my entire frame. I felt myself tensing up every single muscle I could find in my body. In that moment of need, awareness arose in my mind and an immediate relaxation of the muscles ensued. I decided to experiment with how far I could possibly relate to this somewhat unpleasant experience with clear awareness. Gradually I was able to let go of my resistance to the wind and to allow my body to experience the strong sensations as they are, without interference. It was as if the wind was allowed to sweep across and into my body even as I stood there open, aware, and vulnerable. As I stayed with it for some time, the separation between the wind and myself seemed to vanish, and in a brief but unforgettable moment, I was the wind. The ‘self’ had merged into the wind, as it were, and my sense of a separate ego had been forgotten.

(6:17 PM) AEN: wat u tink

(6:18 PM) AEN: btw last time u said crystal clear not tat good.. how come

(6:18 PM) AEN: as in the book

(6:18 PM) AEN: the other one, not clarifying the natural state

(6:23 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Online

(6:26 PM) Thusness:      so so only

(6:26 PM) Thusness:      forgotten...

(6:27 PM) AEN: oic

(6:28 PM) AEN: the experience above is like anatta?

(6:28 PM) Thusness:      but the one u have seem quite good. :)

(6:28 PM) Thusness:      no

(6:28 PM) Thusness:      the experience is not anatta. :P

(6:28 PM) AEN: lol

(6:28 PM) AEN: icic

(6:28 PM) Thusness:      it is non-dual

(6:28 PM) Thusness:      but there is no insight of anatta.

(6:28 PM) Thusness:      anatta is an insight.

(6:29 PM) AEN: oic..

(6:29 PM) Thusness:      an intuitive insight into the nature of reality.

(6:29 PM) Thusness:      there is always no-self.

(6:29 PM) AEN: so his experience is like stage 2?

(6:29 PM) AEN: icic

(6:29 PM) Thusness:      as for the experience, it is just the degree of non-dual.

(6:29 PM) AEN: oic

(6:30 PM) Thusness:      in order to have the peak of experience of anatta, even with insight, the depth and degree of experience depends on 'sheh'.

(6:31 PM) Thusness:      like for me, the degree of experience is definitely not equal to a monk that has realised anatta with the same depth of insight.

(6:31 PM) AEN: icic..

(6:31 PM) AEN: ya the book says

(6:31 PM) AEN: i mean clarifying the natural state says,

(6:34 PM) AEN: hmm it says there are those who quickly have the insight into the 4 yogas but theres no stability and said "if his period of practice during this life is but a short while, it is taught that he will have true realization in the bardo"

(6:35 PM) Thusness:      ic.

(6:35 PM) Thusness:      good book.

(6:36 PM) Thusness:      But still need to read through.

(6:36 PM) Thusness:      sometimes just a few pages.

(6:36 PM) Thusness:      LOOL

(6:36 PM) AEN: lol

(6:41 PM) AEN: it says in the beginning of nonmeditation "During the ensuing perceptions, there is a remnant of ignorance called "thoughtless nonrecognition", which is the all-ground consciousness remaining as a thoughtless state of indifference. This is also known as the "defilement of negative tendencies".

(6:41 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(6:42 PM) AEN: Although you do not create karma, it is taught that clinging, not yet dissolved into original wakefulness, still occurs like fugitive moments of magical illusion. During dreams you still encounter a slight clinging to them as being real due to not recognizing.

(6:42 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Online

(6:42 PM) AEN: wat is thoughtless nonrecognition

(6:43 PM) Thusness:      in dreams or in real life.  :)

(6:43 PM) Thusness:      both will.

(6:43 PM) AEN: icic.. so wats tat about

(6:44 PM) AEN: "At the time of medium Nonmeditation, even this most subtle dualistic perception, which is like a magical illusion, dissolves and you become uninterrupted in the state of nonmeditation throughout day and night.

(6:45 PM) AEN: "During the ensuing perceptions, the extremely subtle trait of thoughtless nonrecognition dawns as a natural awareness. This is called "perfection in accordance with the intrinsic nature". It is taught that this trait is the subtlest defilement of negative tendencies and that it is still present at night.

(6:46 PM) Thusness:      i m not there yet

(6:46 PM) AEN: "At the time of greater Nonmeditation, this extremely subtle trait of thoughtless nonrecognition dissolves into original wakefulness so that the mother and child luminosities intermigle. Everything is not the all-encompassing expanse of original wakefulness so that -- for the benefit of yourself -- you attain dharmakaya in completeness. Since its natural expression is mastered, free from any partiality, it is taught that the reflections of the form-bodies for the benefit of others will spontaneously fulfill the welfare of beings for as long as samsara lasts.

(6:46 PM) AEN: oic

(6:46 PM) AEN: but wat is thoughtless nonrecognition about'

(6:47 PM) Thusness:      Presence

(6:47 PM) AEN: but its a form of ignorance?

(6:48 PM) Thusness:      i got to read about it first

(6:48 PM) AEN: oic..

(6:48 PM) Thusness:      The book seems a good practitioner's guide.

(6:48 PM) AEN: icic..

(6:49 PM) Thusness:      Who is able to have these experience?

(6:49 PM) Thusness:      I mean who is the originator?

(6:50 PM) AEN: Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, a 16th century master

(6:55 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(7:07 PM) AEN: Everything is not the all-encompassing expanse of original wakefulness  -- sorry, i mean 'now the'

(7:08 PM) Thusness:      yes

(7:08 PM) Thusness:      but this realisation is not a dualistic sort of realisation.

(7:08 PM) AEN: wat u mean

(7:08 PM) Thusness:      as I am the tree.

(7:08 PM) Thusness:      :P

(7:08 PM) AEN: oic haha

(7:08 PM) Thusness:      or I am you.

(7:09 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:09 PM) Thusness:      all remains as it is, still the same as before.

(7:09 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:09 PM) Thusness:      universe is not a dualistic universe.

(7:09 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:10 PM) Thusness:      it is just a form of realisation.

(7:10 PM) Thusness:      what is important is the actual experience.

(7:10 PM) Thusness:      the liberating experience due to our no-self and empty nature.

(7:10 PM) AEN: oic..

 

Session Start: Thursday, March 20, 2008

 

(1:45 AM) AEN: Xabir

 

The stage 2 he describes is referred to as "I am everything". so I do not follow when you say you experience this when I know you don't really believe in your "I" ness anymore.

 

I used to have this experience / sense of I am everything, when I used to believe in my "I" and see it as everything.

 

Now, as we've been discussing, it's just an aware nothingness which comes later it seems.

 

Metta

Dolphin

(1:45 AM) AEN: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D66843&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Ej8p7v1I7pd2aErHzqciSEQmwYYFIE%2FBdZvtNemig%2BQ%3D&reserved=0

(1:47 AM) AEN: lol

(1:22 PM) AEN: hi so how to reply

(2:54 PM) AEN: hi u there?

(6:01 PM) Thusness:      u don't know how to reply eh?

(7:24 PM) AEN: back

(7:25 PM) Thusness:      How come u like to say what i say in the forum hah

(7:25 PM) Thusness:      kok ur head!

(7:25 PM) AEN: lol

(7:25 PM) Thusness:      Just put in ur own words what is the danger can liao.

(7:25 PM) Thusness:      don't say i say.

(7:25 PM) Thusness:      as if i know everything

(7:25 PM) Thusness:      this is no good.

(7:26 PM) Thusness:      it gives ppl wrong impression.

(7:26 PM) AEN: oic.. haha

(7:26 PM) Thusness:      Just say what u think.

(7:26 PM) Thusness:      Very often when we seek spiritual power, we start with a very wrong mindset.

(7:27 PM) Thusness:      whatever...:P

(7:27 PM) Thusness:      don't have to quote me even for this.

(7:27 PM) AEN: lol

(7:27 PM) AEN: ok..

(7:28 PM) Thusness:      because that is told by all teachers too.

(7:28 PM) Thusness:      what is important is normally we are dealing with consciousness.

(7:28 PM) Thusness:      we are unable to deal with the propensities of consciousness.

(7:28 PM) Thusness:      we cannot over estimate ourselves.

(7:28 PM) AEN: oic..

(7:29 PM) Thusness:      What is dolphin asking?

(7:29 PM) AEN: he's asking like why if i dun believe in 'self' then i experience stage 2

(7:30 PM) Thusness:      no

(7:31 PM) Thusness:      what is he saying really?

(7:37 PM) AEN: back

(7:38 PM) AEN: not so sure

(7:38 PM) Thusness:      U must be able to communicate humbly to him.

(7:42 PM) AEN: icic

(7:42 PM) AEN: so wats he saying?

(7:44 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(7:44 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Online

(7:45 PM) Thusness:      What is the most important factor of stage 1 and 2?

(7:45 PM) AEN: dunnu

(7:45 PM) AEN: intense luminosity?

(7:45 PM) Thusness:      ai...

(7:45 PM) AEN: Self?

(7:46 PM) Thusness:      The post that u wrote.

(7:46 PM) Thusness:      that is ur experience.

(7:46 PM) Thusness:      it is non-dual.

(7:46 PM) Thusness:      but insight hasn't arisen.

(7:46 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:46 PM) Thusness:      but what did i tell u?

(7:47 PM) AEN: practice dropping?

(7:47 PM) AEN: duration must be prolonged?

(7:47 PM) Thusness:      what else?

(7:48 PM) AEN: summarise anatta?

(7:48 PM) Thusness:      no no

(7:48 PM) Thusness:      r u in stage 1 and 2?

(7:48 PM) AEN: oh u mean "the downside is it also denies you from experiencing that deep and utimate conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence -- "I AM'."

(7:48 PM) AEN: eh brb

(7:48 PM) Thusness:      yes

(7:49 PM) AEN: back

(7:49 PM) AEN: icic

(7:49 PM) Thusness:      The drop of personality is just part of non-dual.

(7:50 PM) Thusness:      i mean non-dual experience but the insight that leads to natural abiding of non-dual experience requires that awakening of insight.

(7:50 PM) Thusness:      Therefore u do not consider urself to be in stage 4.

(7:51 PM) Thusness:      Furthermore what you were told in one of ur post is that there are 2 important factors that you have to be aware:

(7:51 PM) Thusness:      Those that i wrote.

(7:52 PM) Thusness:      Then tell him that what u have written are summaries over the years of conversation with me.  It is not necessarily ur experiences.

(7:53 PM) AEN: icic..

(7:57 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(8:07 PM) AEN: Furthermore what you were told in one of ur post is that there are 2 important factors that you have to be aware:

(8:08 PM) AEN: Although the 'teaching of anatta' helps to prevent you from landing into wrong views, the downside is it also denies you from experiencing that deep and utimate conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence -- "I AM'.  This is a very important factor for Advaita practitioners.

 

 

 

The next important factor is the duration of this non-dual experience must be prolonged; long enough for you to enter into a sort of absorption that the experience becomes 'oceanic'.

(8:08 PM) AEN: this?

(8:11 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Online

(8:11 PM) Thusness:      yes

(8:11 PM) Thusness:      finished makan

(8:11 PM) AEN: icic ok

(8:12 PM) Thusness:      with practice the experience of non-duality can be sustained normally through sufficient elimination of 'self'.

(8:13 PM) Thusness:      but the sense of permanence, independence and unchangingness remain.

(8:13 PM) AEN: posted https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lioncity.net%2Fbuddhism%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D66843%26st%3D0%26p%3D908657%26%23entry908657&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce0c92ed17b1f40e53eba08da74326565%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637950057068833608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=K4qqZbGzRXlfXiEFhqnZG1I6XVHlQzPo6QvANd9n5FE%3D&reserved=0

(8:14 PM) Thusness:      This resulted in distancing itself from the transients which is in essence Awareness itself.  There is nothing to distant.

(8:14 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:14 PM) Thusness:      There is a poem I wrote in the awakeningfromdreams forum.

(8:14 PM) Thusness:      to awakening.

(8:15 PM) AEN: leo's forum?

(8:17 PM) Thusness:      yes

(8:20 PM) AEN: oic

(8:20 PM) AEN: which poem

(8:20 PM) AEN: btw my post ok?

(8:21 PM) Thusness:      haven't read yet

(8:21 PM) Thusness:      there is no this that is more 'this' than 'that'

(8:21 PM) Thusness:      this poem.

(8:21 PM) AEN: oic

(8:25 PM) Thusness:      There is no this that is more this than that.

Although thought arises and ceases vividly,

Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.

 

The emptiness nature that is ever manifesting presently

Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.

 

Although non-dual is seen with clarity,

The urge to remain can still blind subtly.

Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.

Die utterly

(8:25 PM) Thusness:      And bear witness of this pure presence, its non-locality.

(8:26 PM) Thusness:      This is suitable for him for he think Awareness is 'special' and 'ultimate' and different from the transient mind.

(8:26 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:26 PM) AEN: i paste this ?

(8:26 PM) Thusness:      Summarized a bit lah

(8:27 PM) AEN: oh.. but its quite short mah :P

(8:27 PM) AEN: u mean in non-poem form?

(8:27 PM) AEN: as in write in normal text

(8:28 PM) Thusness:      poem

(8:29 PM) Thusness:      but u must bring out the point that Awareness is not any 'special' and 'ultimate' and different from the transient mind.

(8:31 PM) AEN: dolphin: Xabir

 

I think we can agree to differ on the content of the stages and each others tastes of them, but that's OK too.

 

To clarify all this for my simple mind, I generally try to restrict my comments to what I directly experience where possible. That way I hope to stay focussed on where things are really at and avoid intellectualising all this or just asserting theories. So I have little more to say now! Thanks for the dialogue. smile.gif

 

Metta

Dolphin

(8:33 PM) AEN: ?

(8:33 PM) Thusness:      Just say ur sentiment too.

(8:33 PM) Thusness:      what else u want to say

(8:34 PM) Thusness:      u can convey to him about not seeing 'awareness' as anymore  'special' than the transient mind.

(8:34 PM) AEN: ok

(8:34 PM) AEN: wat about the poem

(8:35 PM) Thusness:      can

(8:35 PM) AEN: ok just post it directly?

(8:35 PM) Thusness:      yeah

(8:36 PM) Thusness:      but remember to say "Awareness" is not anymore 'special' than the transient mind.

(8:36 PM) AEN: ok

(8:49 PM) Thusness:      wah...u write so long?

(8:49 PM) AEN: no not yet.. lol

(8:50 PM) AEN: just now answering call

(8:53 PM) Thusness:     

The arising and ceasing is called the Transience,

Is self luminous and self perfected from beginning.

However due the karmic propensity that divides,

The mind separates the ‘brilliance’ from the ever arising and ceasing.

This karmic illusion constructs ‘the brilliance’,

Into an object that is permanent and unchanging.

The ‘unchanging’ appears unimaginably real,

(8:54 PM) Thusness:      Only exists in subtle thinking and recalling.

In essence the luminosity is itself empty,

Is already unborn, unconditioned and ever pervading.

Therefore fear not the arising and ceasing.

(8:54 PM) Thusness:      This one also okie.

(8:54 PM) AEN: icic.. okie

(8:57 PM) AEN: ok posted

(9:02 PM) Thusness:      Good answer wrong timing. :)

(9:02 PM) Thusness:      Yuan jing!

(9:02 PM) AEN: y wrong timing

(9:04 PM) AEN: how come wrong timing?

(9:04 PM) Thusness:      my opinion only. :)

(9:04 PM) AEN: oic but he will still read rite :P

(9:04 PM) AEN: how come wrong timing

(9:05 PM) Thusness:      Think so.

(9:05 PM) Thusness:      :)

(9:05 PM) AEN: icic

(9:15 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle

(9:22 PM)           Thusness has changed his/her status to Online

(9:22 PM) Thusness:      The share market is dropping like no tomorrow.

(9:22 PM) Thusness:      :P

(9:23 PM) AEN: lol

(9:23 PM) Thusness:      quite scary.

(9:23 PM) AEN: u sold ur shares?

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