This is related to a conversation between Thusness/John Tan and Sim Pern Chong in early 2007:

Sim:

It is like what i have said before there is various depths to non-duality.

There appears to be 2 distinct 'levels' of non-duality...to me.

In the first level, mental thoughts are still quite active. Here thoughts arises but there is no thinker. Here no subject-object split is clearly understood.

At this level there is the ‘insight’ of no-self but momentum continues.

However momentum stops being re-enforced.

And there is another distinct level that mental thoughts loses it attraction all together. In this level, there feels like cognitions have

been de-constructed.

Thusness:

There are several reasons:

1. Here most of the propensities that resulted from holding to the illusion view of a background begin to subside.

2. When background subsides, Natural awareness takes place and there is natural tendency to feel everything directly, the burden is being more equally distributed to the rest of the five senses instead of being skewed to just

‘thinking’ alone.

3. A subtle “insight” is about to take place or has already taken place. It is the “insight” that ‘content’ is the problem of all problems. It is what that conjured out all sorts of illusions, fears and worries.

4. The practice of the second door is gaining strength at the pre-conscious

level.

Sim:

This is a blissful level and it feels like resting on 'nothing'.

Thusness/John:

It is resting on ‘nothing of content’ but it is resting on ‘peace, clarity, blissfulness, vitality’. Here focus is gradually shifting from "content" of the mind to "qualities" of the mind. The qualities of mind has nothing to do with “content".

Sim:

But without the first level non-duality, the second level cannot be moved into.

Thusness/John Tan:

This need not be the case. The first level of ‘insight’ is more important from my point of view. It is what that leads to Oneness. A person that practices mindfulness may enter the second level u mentioned without first having that ‘non-dual’ insight of the first level, this in fact has been my case for many years. It is due to the ability to sustain for a prolong period of bare attention or non-conceptuality. The understanding of no-self here can still remain as ‘no-personal self' or as a form of mirror bright clarity that is free of labels but the mirror still exist in a dualistic form. In the second level, the sense of ego diminishes but the attachment of a background is still strong and insight into

"non-dual" has not really aroused.

Edited by Thusness 31 Jan `07, 9:33PM

(Source: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss... )

——

However, Gary Weber and Bernadette Roberts lack the insight of anatta. The former is into I AM and impersonality (see: different degrees of no self that I wrote: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degress...) while the latter is the transition from I AM into nondual but not yet realising the seal of anatta (Bernadette is discussed in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../no-mind-and-anatta... )

(10:22 PM) Thusness: i termed it myself...lol

(10:22 PM) AEN: oh haha

(10:22 PM) Thusness: as a distinct phase of crystal clarity.

(10:22 PM) AEN: oic

(10:22 PM) Thusness: going through all 3 phases.

(10:23 PM) Thusness: in the first round one is unable to break through all 3 phases

(10:23 PM) Thusness: although there is no entry or exit in non-dual.

(10:23 PM) AEN: icic

(10:24 PM) Thusness: it is not that there is a second round.

(10:24 PM) Thusness: lol

(10:24 PM) Thusness: as what longchen said. 

(10:25 PM) AEN: icic

(10:25 PM) AEN: oh but i tot u can maintain non dual in sleep? 

(10:26 PM) Thusness: there is no need to maintain anything during deep sleep.

(10:26 PM) Thusness: it is non-dual by itself.

(10:26 PM) Thusness: more pure than anything. 

(10:26 PM) Thusness: but just like what longchen said in one of his posts, there are various phases

(10:27 PM) Thusness: in the first phase, there is no thinker but thinking

(10:27 PM) Thusness: in later refinement of non-duality, there is no thoughts and thoughts have lost their attraction.

(10:28 PM) AEN: back

(10:28 PM) AEN: oic...

(10:28 PM) AEN: no thoughts meaning few thoughts rite... not no thoughts 

(10:28 PM) Thusness: but these are not phases of non dual. Rather they are the different degrees of luminosity

(10:28 PM) Thusness: yeah

(10:29 PM) AEN: ok

(10:29 PM) AEN: icic

(10:29 PM) Thusness: there is always non-dual like what longchen said.

(10:29 PM) Thusness: means he has understood it as a seal.

(10:29 PM) Thusness: no-self is a seal.

(10:29 PM) Thusness: a dharma seal.

——

Also see:

Are the insight stages strictly linear?

I wrote this based on what Thusness/PasserBy have said regarding his Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Experience on Spiritual Enlightenment - not to think of the 7 stages as strictly linear or having a hierarchy.

Some are able to understand the profound wisdom of emptiness from the start but have no direct experience of luminosity, then luminosity becomes a later phase. So does that mean the most pristine experience of "I AM" is now the last stage? On the other hand, some have experienced luminosity but does not understand how he got himself 'lost', as there is no insight to the karmic tendencies/propensities at all, therefore they cannot understand Dependent Origination adequately. But does that mean that the one that experiences emptiness is higher than the one experiencing luminosity?

Some people experience non-dual but do not go through the I AM, and then after non-dual the I AM becomes even more precious because it brings out the luminosity aspect more. Also, when in non-dual, one can still be full of thoughts, therefore the focus then is to experience the thoroughness of being no-thoughts, fully luminous and present... then it is not about non-dual, not about the no object-subject split, it is about the degree of luminosity for these non-dualist. But for some monks that is trapped in luminosity and rest in samadhi, then the focus should be on refining non-dual insight and experience. For non-dualists, depending on the level of understanding, one can move forward and backward, there is no hierarchy.

So just see the phases as different aspect of insights of our true nature, not necessarily as linear stages or a 'superiority' and 'inferiority' comparison. What one should understand is what is lacking in the form of realization. There is no hierarchy to it, only insights. Understanding this means that one will be able to see all stages as flat, no higher.

Labels: Stages of Enlightenment |