Also See: Mr. RD's Breakthrough

The Buddha on Non-Duality


Mr C:

Question
The insight of Anatta in actual experience, meaning day to day, came by way of Bahiya Sutta. The insight through actual experience. In contemplating it in the back yard casually. The initial insight was in meditation pushing the mind to see what came Before its identity. Meaning I went in memory looking for a me and when I found it I asked what was Before. That led to the unraveling of identity and booted me from always in thoughts past present future and spit me out here.
Then there is a a though of "nothing is happening" and seeing that everything is perfect and unfolding. Not good no bad not neutral either.
There is still this effort to attain something. To make Anatta a permanent everyday moment to moment experience. There is the sense of me left. Just a sense.
What do I do and how to do it?
I had a dream that I asked you this question
And the answer was clear
There are only thoughts the cover this up and the clarity is already so.
That*
Fundamentally I know experience has something false, ME. But it keeps reinforcing the sense of me.
Be straight, tell me as it is. Direct. Please.




Soh replied:

Bahiya sutta must be realised as pointing to what is always already the case, not a state or a stage. In seeing, always already, only the seen, seeing is merely the seen, never a seer. Same for all other senses. This must be seen..

I will say more later.. having dinner now 🙂



Mr C:

Ok. I'm dropping the kids to school. Thanks




Soh replied:

So when you contemplate on bahiya sutta, try not to treat it as a stage to attain. But rather a pointer, a koan, to investigate the nature of reality, mind, consciousness and phenomena
Meaning when engaged in the act of seeing, investigate and challenge the very view and sense of being a seer or a seeing that exists behind or besides the seen
Is there a seer seeing? Is seeing anything besides colors or is it just colors? Does the seer seeing seen paradigm truly apply to reality or it is just another linguistic construct much like “the wind is blowing” or “the lightning is flashing”, where language moulds a vivid appearance into entities, agents and actions… but in truth both “lightning” and “flash” are simply two words imputed on a single activity or happening?
Likewise is there a “knowing” besides “known” or is it just another linguistic construct like lightning and flash, wind and blowing?
There is no wind besides blowing, no lightning besides flash, no seer or seeing besides colors and no hearer or hearing besides sound
Is this the case? So we look into our experience and challenge and investigate whether this is so until a paradigm shifting insight arises that cuts through all doubts and delusion.. and “in the seen just the seen” is realised to be what is always already the case, never was there a seer
Doer doing deed… hearer hearing heard… sensor sensing sensed. All these can be investigated the same way



Mr C:
It is. It's a constant cycle
Seeing so then going back it lol and cycling through again.
But there is that fundamental dissatisfaction. Only when it's seen, meaning contemplating the sutta and result does that goes.
Then, it cycles again. It gets easier and easier. But man.....




Soh replied:

Now supposed sense of self arise. What do you suppose is the difference between how sense of self is seen in light of the insight of anatta? Any difference before and after?



Mr C:
It's hollow
No substance.
Transparent.
Before it was indistinguishable. Could not see it.
The center to which everything happened to.



Soh replied:

Yes.. so before insight of anatta, Self is not hollow or substanceless. It is seen to be real, actual, truly existing by its own side. You feel that you truly are an agent, a self, a Self.

If insight is clear, there is no doer or doing besides deed or hearer or hearing besides sound. Likewise sense of self is also not an agent but merely a “being done without doer” activity. It is just an activity of grasping without truly a true grasper and grasped. So until this is clearly seen, one should contemplate. When seen just remain in equipoise.. and refine one’s view into dependent origination and twofold emptiness




Mr C:
Now, there are happenings. Sounds are crisps and of their own. Same with each sense
Ok.



Soh replied:

There must be clarity what the insight is about
And what is the experience of no mind and how insight leads to effortless no mind
Otherwise no mind will not become stable
What satellite and phroggy said here must be clear

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/just-manifestation-or-just-mind.html
 



Mr C:
That came by way that there is just experience. The first experience by way of memory and unraveling. Reading the above.
I was watching the vid you posted. Very clear and confirming.
A alot of this I have no context for.
That helped immensely
Seeing that the bahiya sutta is a pointer to the nature of reality instead of a place or stage to try and get too. Just that subtle shift was of great help.

Also see:

Dharma Talk - Steve hagen, "In the Seen There Is Only the Seen" July 18

Steve Hagen books are also clear and highly recommended.

Excerpts:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/04/buddhism-is-not-what-you-think.html

Soh Wei Yu
Michael Hernandez
I don’t think Steve is saying there is something unchanging like Advaita. Rather, he is talking about the unborn nature of dharma.
Excerpt from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../buddhism-is-not...
Buddhism Plain and Simple page 115, by Zen Teacher Steve Hagen:
With the two types of views there are two kinds of minds. As human beings, we all have what we could call ordinary minds - the mind that you've always assumed you've had. It's a calculating mind, a discriminating mind, a fragmented mind. It's the mind of ordinary consciousness, the mind of self and other. We generally think of it as "my mind."
But there's another mind that is unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Unlike "your mind," it is unbound, for there is nothing beyond it. To this Mind, there is no "other mind."
This Mind is nothing other than the Whole. It's simply thus, the fabric of the world itself - the ongoing arising and falling away that are matter, energy and events.
Speaking of this Mind, the great Chinese Zen master Huang Po said,
All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind... This Mind is beyond all measurements, names, oppositions: this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind you turn away from It.
This Mind is self-evident - it's always switched on, so to speak. We can - and, in fact, we do - see It in every moment. If we would refrain from stirring our minds (rest our frontal lobes, as my Zen teacher used to say) and let our conceptualising die down, like the ripples on a pond after the stirring wind has ceased, we would realise - we would know Mind directly.
(Steve Hagen)
.
.
.
Ultimate Truth, on the other hand, is direct perception. And what is directly perceived (as opposed to conceive) is that no separate, individualised things exist as such. There's nothing to be experienced but this seamless, thoroughgoing relativity and flux.
In other words, there are no particulars, but only thus.
....
When the Buddha spoke of individuals, he often used a different term: "stream." Imagine a stream flowing-eonstantly moving and changing, always different from one moment to the next. Most of us see ourselves as corks floating in a stream, persisting things moving along in the stream of time. But this is yet another frozen view.
According to this view, everything in the stream changes except the cork. While we generally admit to changes in our body, our mind, our thoughts, our feelings, our understandings, and our beliefs, we still believe, "I myself don't change. I'm still me. I'm an unchanging cork in an ever-changing stream." This is precisely what we believe the self to be-something that doesn't change.
The fact is, however, that there are no corks in the stream. There is only stream. What we conceptualize as "cork" is also stream. We are like music. Music, after all, is a type of stream. Music exists only in constant flow and flux and change. Once the movement stops, the music is no more. It exists not as a particular thing, but as pure coming and going with no thing that comes or goes.
Look at this carefully. If this is true-how a stream exists, how music exists, and how we exist-see how it is that when we insert the notion of "I" we've posited some little, solid entity that floats along, not as stream, but like a cork in a stream. We see ourselves as solid corks, not as the actual stream we are.
If we are the stream, what is it that experiences the flux, the flow, the change? The Buddha saw that there is no particular thing that is having an experience. There is experience, but no experiencer. There is perception, but no perceiver. There is consciousness, but no self that can be located or identified.

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Buddhism Is Not What You Think
Buddhism Is Not What You Think

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Soh Wei Yu
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../in-seen-only-seen...
06
In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen
John Tan: If seen is just seen, then there is no movement.
Soh: Movement?
John Tan: In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen. There is no changing nor unchanging.
Soh: Ic..
Soh: The nancy also said the same.. nothing changing or unchanging
[10:15 pm, 05/10/2021] John Tan: That is ultimate view.
[10:16 pm, 05/10/2021] John Tan: Conventionally, there is changes and impermanence and origination in dependence as the right way of expression.
Soh: https://nancyspoems.blogspot.com/
Nancy:
We are infinite reflections without a source
Echoes spinning
Fleeting images
Flowing thought dreams
Without sides or a middle
Dancing without movement or non movement
without direction or non direction
There are no colors or rainbows without us
Without an imaginary persona there is no imaginary heart
Beating
Loving all this
That is not this
Or that
Or both
Or neither
There is no one to be free or bound
Or gaze as infinite awe painting the dream scape with colors that cannot be seen
Only felt
No one to fall into your unutterable beauty
Or fall endlessly in love with you
….
At first this felt like, 'I am all this!"
Then it felt like, 'All this!'
Later it was .... 'Not even nothing...'
….
no eyes apart from the seeing....
no ears apart from the hearing
no sound separate from the listening...
no wind separate from your cheek
no love separate from your heart
no inside
no outside
the horizon that held the sky apart from the sea
untied itself
the timeline from birth to death collapsed
as well as the time walker
and left this knowing and feeling that there are no things
simply an atemporal seamless flow without movement or non movement....
no things to be permeant or changing ...
feels like the first and last kiss ....
a constant union of what was never apart...
Soh: Sounds like she went through the stages
John Tan:

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen
In the seen only the seen is also no seer, no seeing and nothing seen
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Soh Wei Yu
“The next understanding you must have after anatta and emptiness is to know that all qualities similar to those that are described and sounded ontological are always manifesting presently, spontaneously and effortlessly after the purification of anatta and emptiness insights. That is, spontaneous arising is not just saying responding automatically. It is the manifestation of these blissful characteristics of nature spontaneously. Non-arising, unmoving, unchanging, pristiness, clarity... spontaneously present” – John Tan, 2009
“Mr. T: I cannot find a ground a base, to identify with, everything is changing constantly. Arising and passing away. All of experience, where do I stand?
Kyle Dixon: Arising and passing away are characteristics of conditioned phenomena. As practitioners of the buddhadharma, our aim is to fully realize the unconditioned nature of phenomena, free of arising and cessation. That natural and perfect nature, is the true refuge.
Upon realizing that nature, the Buddha stated the following:
I have obtained the ambrosia of Dharma,� profound, peaceful, immaculate, luminous and unconditioned. �Even though I explain it, no one will understand, �I think I will remain in the forest without speaking. �Free from words, untrained by speech,� suchness, the nature of Dharma, is like space� free from the movements of mind and intellect, �supreme, amazing, the sublime knowledge. �Always like space, �nonconceptual, luminous, �the teaching without periphery or center �is expressed in this Dharmawheel. �Free from existence and nonexistence,� beyond self and nonself, �the teaching of natural nonarising �is expressed in this Dharmawheel.
— The Ārya-lalitavistara-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra” – Kyle Dixon, 2021
Labels: Anatta, Emptiness, Movement, Nancy Neithercut 0 comments | |
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Soh Wei Yu
Also, John Tan said before:
“This is correct. "Permanent" is not referring to something not undergoing change, it refers to the absence of causing of arising.”
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Michael Hernandez
His comment on not having views is important. A view sets up a refuge of a temporal permanence. I have them. It is a world view. If we get down to what the view really is it's more that a thought. It's a feeling associated with it.
For example I feel a certain way about anti-vaxxers. I have this view which is really a feeling that they are ignorant. But that feeling is dislike or disgust. It is a subtle tension around the eyes down into the the gut. This view can lead to thoughts of reasonings.
A view is my reality right now.
I have a view when I perceive an attractive person. I like their looks. It occurs to me to they would be a desirable mate. That view exists entirely in my imagination but certainly I feel that attraction. I certainly identify with that perception feeling. My eyes might not be directed at the person but my peripheral vision has them located while all others are blurred out. It is a very temporal experience. And it's my view that they are attractive at this time and place. While they maybe attractive to another person our attractions on examination don't match completely on all points. We slightly different views yet mostly agree. That's politics, religion and ideologies.
They are absolutely based on now as views change.
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Soh Wei Yu
Michael Hernandez
The most crucial views to penetrate is the false view of 'existence' and 'non-existence'. Because that is the root of all grasping and suffering. You cannot grasp 'something' unless it is established to be existent (an attractive person, for example) or that existent thing becomes non-existent (such as the death of a loved one). Non-existence of something depends on apprehending an existent to begin with. What is non-arisen or has never originated to begin with cannot end up in non-existence. The extremes of existence and non-existence is the essential ignorance which reifies all self and phenomena into apparent reality, which is samsara.
Freedom from extremes and the viewless view of emptiness however does not necessarily mean exactly having no views. Even Buddha had views which may be considered religious or even political (just a quick example: he was against the Brahmanic interpretation of the caste system, he did not support the caste system but was pro equality of all castes). But of course he is not attached to these views as he simply had no attachments whatsoever (otherwise he cannot be called a Buddha or an Arahant). Some views, be it religious, political, ideological, can be harmful and must be refuted strongly. Such as the anti-vax ideology. That is however not an excuse to have hate for these people. Instead, we should feel more compassion for them. However to shun politics/ideology can be another form of spiritual bypassing. Spirituality is not an escapism from the mundane, it is full engagement and full involvement without attachment. Politics is one of the many arenas of mundane life, and even if you may be politically apathetic, we do exercise our voting rights in a democratic country. Spiritual life and mundane life are not two.
“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural [tendency] to explore in [various] arena[s] and enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I [am] involve[d] in Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga.... I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan/Thusness, 2019
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Soh Wei Yu
On how emptiness is not having no views:
[10:43 PM, 6/6/2020] John Tan: There are two folds to it. Any view is ultimately empty... But freeing one from constructs and conceptualization has a different meaning to me. Like when see through self, we realized anatta. It is not the freeing, but must also involves the arising insight and wisdom.
I think I mentioned I am not into without view. The freeing from seeing through self is not a form of "not knowing", contrary it is deep wisdom that allows one to understand our nature directly.”
From Dharmawheel, Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith says Madhyamaka is not a simple minded “I have no view” proposition:
“gad rgyangs wrote:
He clearly says in the VV that he has no view to defend. Do you think he was wrong about himself?
Malcolm wrote:
He states in the VV that he has no propositions/thesis concerning svabhāva as defined by his opponents. He does not say he has no views at all. For example, he clearly states in the MMK that he prefers the Sammitya view of karma.
Your claim is similar to the mistaken assertion made by some who claim that Candrakirti never resorts to syllogisms, which in fact he clearly does in the opening lines of the MAV. What Candra disputes is not syllogistic reasoning in its entirety, but rather, syllogistic reasoning applied to emptiness.
Likewise, he clearly asserts the view in the VV that there is no svabhāva in phenomena. Madhyamaka is not a simple minded "I have no view" proposition.
...
"Madhyamaka is not a simple minded "I have no view" proposition."
...
gad rgyangs wrote:
then why does the MMK end thusly? MMK 27.30:
I salute Gautama, who, based on compassion,
taught the true Dharma for the abandonment of all views.
Malcolm wrote:
"All views" here is summarized as two in chapter fifteen: i.e. substantial existence and nonexistence.”
“The purpose of the view is to open the mind up fully without background, duality and inherency. So that experience is fully open, direct, immediate and without boundaries. Chariot and its basis are not a cause and effect relationship, they originate in dependence.” - John Tan, 2019
“The truth of the matter is that “pacification of views” is directly related to the realization of emptiness. If you have not realized emptiness, then you have no business talking about a lack of view, because you still perceive conditioned phenomena and are therefore cognitively endowed with “views.” Those views can only be pacified through directly realizing non-arising.
For some reason you mistakenly believe that “no view” means something like withholding a view, but it has nothing at all to do with that.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021
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