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The Problem with Don't Know Mind
Soh

Also see: The Disease of Non-Conceptuality

[10:43 PM, 6/6/2020] John Tan: There are two folds to it. Any view is ultimately empty... But freeing one from constructs and conceptualization has a different meaning to me. Like when see through self, we realized anatta. It is not the freeing, but must also involves the arising insight and wisdom.
I think I mentioned I am not into without view. The freeing from seeing through self is not a form of "not knowing", contrary it is deep wisdom that allows one to understand our nature directly.”

 

 

    Soh Wei Yu
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    John Tan and I are "against" "don't know mind". In fact usually it refers to a state of marigpa (ignorance) called the indeterminancy of alaya. (see next post)
    [14/5/18, 9:56:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Anyway she asked dae Kwang who let’s go
    [14/5/18, 9:57:07 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Dae Kwang said precisely, he ask her back I think she said don’t know then he say correct, even Buddha’s don’t know, this don’t know is Buddha nature
    [14/5/18, 9:57:22 AM] John Tan: Nonsense
    [14/5/18, 9:57:42 AM] Soh Wei Yu: What nonsense?
    [14/5/18, 9:58:01 AM] John Tan: Such half past six answers is not zen
    [14/5/18, 9:58:08 AM] John Tan: Degraded
    [14/5/18, 9:58:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oh but also he say
    [14/5/18, 9:58:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Heart Sutra no eyes no nose no... etc
    [14/5/18, 9:58:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Then he ask what is no eyes
    [14/5/18, 9:58:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He ask someone he doesn’t know
    [14/5/18, 9:58:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He say wall is white
    [14/5/18, 9:59:46 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Seung sahn always emphasise don’t know
    [14/5/18, 9:59:50 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think it’s just non conceptuality
    [14/5/18, 9:59:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I mean the don’t know part
    [14/5/18, 9:59:57 AM] John Tan: I know
    [14/5/18, 10:00:29 AM] John Tan: This is a disease rather than wisdom
    [14/5/18, 10:01:44 AM] John Tan: What "don't know" points to is "non-conceptual" functioning.
    [14/5/18, 10:03:30 AM] John Tan: Lack of investigation and stable insights we will not be able to distinguish stable insights of non-conceptual functioning from "conceptual releasing".
    [14/5/18, 10:04:20 AM] John Tan: Originally I wanted to tell tan jui Hong but dun want to talk too much.
    [14/5/18, 10:05:11 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [14/5/18, 10:05:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think u shld tell jui.. anyway jui has realised anatta I think might be into total exertion but not sure
    [14/5/18, 10:06:15 AM] John Tan: Next time
    [14/5/18, 10:06:21 AM] John Tan: Is he Singaporean
    [14/5/18, 10:09:06 AM] John Tan: Freeing from reified constructs is a whole new world of practice. That is "don't know mind" starts from there.
    [14/5/18, 10:14:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: U mean jui?
    [14/5/18, 10:14:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya jui is singaporean, u met before
    [14/5/18, 10:14:37 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [14/5/18, 10:14:37 AM] John Tan: Yes
    [14/5/18, 10:14:40 AM] John Tan: Ic
    [14/5/18, 10:23:21 AM] John Tan: Also understanding reified constructs and experiencing reified constructs in oneself is the most crucial aspect.
    [14/5/18, 10:24:31 AM] John Tan: That is the first part of an anatta is key to understanding grasping.
    [14/5/18, 10:25:25 AM] John Tan: Only when we understand constructs and reification, can we understand grasping.
    [14/5/18, 10:27:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [14/5/18, 10:27:49 AM] John Tan: So understanding mental constructs r very imp
    [14/5/18, 10:28:11 AM] John Tan: That includes the energy and mind-body reactions
    [14/5/18, 10:32:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    ‎[14/5/18, 10:46:32 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
    [14/5/18, 10:46:43 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Overemphasize non conceptual I think
    [14/5/18, 10:48:17 AM] John Tan: That is lack of insight and investigation
    [14/5/18, 10:49:16 AM] John Tan: Means due to lack of working with conceptual mind, the "reasons" and the "way" isn't appropriately expressed
    [14/5/18, 10:49:33 AM] John Tan: There is the beauty of mathematics
    [14/5/18, 10:49:59 AM] John Tan: Like calculus to understand complex movement and rate of change
    [14/5/18, 10:51:03 AM] John Tan: There is glendin that can express total exertion and anatta properly.
    [14/5/18, 10:51:52 AM] John Tan: There r energies, prana, awareness teachings of functionality not due to "conceptualities"
    [14/5/18, 10:54:06 AM] John Tan: What just "don't know mind". By doing that, he has caused confusion in himself and others due to lack of investigation. The way of non-conceptual function is not to be solved by mind.
    [14/5/18, 11:13:12 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. not to be solved by the mind but by what way?
    [14/5/18, 11:15:23 AM] John Tan: By the "don't know mind" they r talking
    [14/5/18, 11:15:37 AM] John Tan: The problem is they do not know
    [14/5/18, 11:15:39 AM] John Tan: Lol

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    The Disease of Non-Conceptuality
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Disease of Non-Conceptuality
    The Disease of Non-Conceptuality

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    On how "Don't Know Mind" is actually a state of ma-rigpa (or at most the coarse form of unripened rigpa), Mipham Rinpoche puts it nicely:
    quote: "In this, there is not any of the clear insight of vipaśyanā, which discerns things precisely, and so the masters call it marigpa (“non-recognition, ignorance, unknowing”). Since you cannot define it and say “This is what it’s like”, or “This is it!” such a state is called lungmaten (“undecided, indeterminate”). And since you cannot say what kind of state it is you are resting in, or what your mind is thinking, it is also called tha mal tang nyom (“an ordinary state of apathetic indifference”). In fact, you are stuck in an ordinary state within the ālaya."
    Contra rigpa (knowledge): "Although there is no dualistic separation here between an experience and an experiencer, still the mind is certain about its own true nature, and there is a sense that, “There is nothing whatsoever beyond this.” When this occurs, because you can not conceptualize it or express it in words, it is acceptable to apply such terms as: “free from all extremes”, “beyond description”, “the fundamental state of clear light” and “the pure awareness of rigpa.”
    As the wisdom of recognizing your own true nature dawns, it clears away the blinding darkness of confusion, and, just as you can see clearly the inside of your home once the sun has risen, you gain confident certainty in the true nature of your mind."
    A Lamp to Dispel Darkness
    LOTSAWAHOUSE.ORG
    A Lamp to Dispel Darkness
    A Lamp to Dispel Darkness

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    And likewise, Tsoknyi Rinpoche and many other teachers pointed out that rigpa is marked by certainty. I have said likewise in my journal.
    Absolute Certainty
    "First, acknowledging it is called recognizing one's nature. Next, we must be decisive about what is recognized. This is more complicated, because who really decides? Is it conceptual mind that settles it? Or is it rigpa itself that decides? or is it your teacher who makes up your mind - "The guru said so, so it must be true"? Or will modern technology validate it for you? Could you go to the Rigpa Lab and check your heart and brain with instruments to decide if your rigpa is fine and fit, if your nonduality is in good shape?
    How do you resolve this point? It may be tough to have to immediately endorse your own experience, but we can decide upon it if we feel even 60 percent confident that it's actually rigpa. As the basis for verifying, we use our teacher's words, the words of an authentic scripture, and our own experience. When our state of experiencing rigpa really is rigpa, there is within that an automatic feeling of certainty. To arrive at that certainty you need to give some time to the process, and you also need to have passion. There is a point at which the certainty is built-in, automatic certainty. Once we get to this natural, unshakable certainty, we feel so sure that even if the Buddha himself came before us and said, "Hey, you're wrong, it's not rigpa!" we would thank him for coming, but it would not change our certainty at all. At a certain point the qualities of empty essence, cognizant nature, and unconfined capacity become so utterly obvious that we really know. At this point, we have gained the certainty that whatever occurs in our minds can be freed by itself."
    - Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Fearless Simplicity: The Dzogchen Way of Living Freely in a Complex World
    Labels: Tsoknyi Rinpoche |
    Absolute Certainty
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Absolute Certainty
    Absolute Certainty

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    And likewise John Tan said in the quote above,
    "I think I mentioned I am not into without view. The freeing from seeing through self is not a form of "not knowing", contrary it is deep wisdom that allows one to understand our nature directly.”"

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    "However due to ignorance, we have a very inherent and dual view, if we do see through the nature of presence, the mind continues to be influenced by dualistic and inherent tendencies. Many teach to overcome it through mere non conceptuality but this is highly misleading." - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-pure...
    Anatta and Pure Presence
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Anatta and Pure Presence
    Anatta and Pure Presence

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    [30/9/17, 10:50:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The he Say open mouth already wrong. Cut off thinking.. then he use the Zen stick hit the floor.. is the mind and The hit same or different? Answer is just hit. No inside outside etc.. where you come from.. where does the one return to etc. All just hit. But after the interview I hear they discussing among themselves do u understand? They all just shrug, dunnu what the Teacher talking about
    [30/9/17, 10:55:20 PM] John Tan: Zen is a non verbal expression of suchness
    [30/9/17, 10:56:00 PM] John Tan: Attending to express in the most direct and intuitive way the actualization of anatta
    [30/9/17, 10:57:05 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [30/9/17, 10:57:12 PM] John Tan: But the extreme of it is the insight will prevent further insights
    [30/9/17, 10:57:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Cos falling into non conceptual disease?
    [30/9/17, 10:58:32 PM] John Tan: And actualization is on-going...After the koan an, one has to mature oneself to embrace both side of the coins...
    [30/9/17, 10:59:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: What are the both sides?
    [30/9/17, 10:59:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: View and nondual experience?
    [30/9/17, 10:59:37 PM] John Tan: Yes
    [30/9/17, 10:59:52 PM] John Tan: Non-verbal direct experience is important
    [30/9/17, 11:00:05 PM] John Tan: Only the over emphasis is the issue
    [30/9/17, 11:00:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [30/9/17, 11:01:52 PM] John Tan: Too much emphasis on just non-verbal stuff will prevent one from further insights into our nature as the mind can't clearly see
    [30/9/17, 11:02:59 PM] John Tan: But too much analysis and thinking is a grave obstruction to energy and intuitive felt sense practice 🤣
    [30/9/17, 11:03:05 PM] John Tan: Have to balance
    [30/9/17, 11:16:37 PM] John Tan: Sat chit Ananda can b a very refined stage too
    [30/9/17, 11:16:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Like different stages of I amness?
    [30/9/17, 11:17:04 PM] John Tan: Yes
    [30/9/17, 11:17:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [30/9/17, 11:17:58 PM] John Tan: Just don't like to say I hv experience this and that...lol. ... Too old to go into debate anymore...
    [30/9/17, 11:18:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    [30/9/17, 11:19:46 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Just now he ask the question what is the one clear thing beyond life and death even before interview.. then I sat on the question and just experienced blissful being ness. Like beingness is blissful... actually anything nondual is blissful that’s why breathing can also be incredibly blissful
    [30/9/17, 11:21:27 PM] John Tan: Yes but u R in anatta or total exertion or non-obstruction self arising phenomenon
    [30/9/17, 11:21:42 PM] John Tan: Or in silence?
    [30/9/17, 11:22:05 PM] John Tan: Or in non-dual awareness?
    [30/9/17, 11:22:14 PM] John Tan: All are non dual🤣🤣🤣
    [30/9/17, 11:22:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    [30/9/17, 11:22:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Depends on the question I think, like before birth who am I leads to more like silent being, just mind
    [30/9/17, 11:23:22 PM] John Tan: Just I M
    [30/9/17, 11:23:46 PM] John Tan: fully into beingness
    [30/9/17, 11:25:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya

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Three Poisons / Afflictions etc
Soh

 Someone wrote, "

Why five poisons.....why poisons at all.....aren't there schools of Buddhism which suggest that these "poisons" are actually doors to liberation/realization of emptiness. And (this is a rhetorical question)....what is this obsession with numbers in formal orthodox Buddhism...... the 5 poisons? Why not 3 1/2.....the 88 desires.....why not 87 .....or why not only 1 (the clinging to life)? What is this obsession Buddhism has with systemizing everything with numbers.....(orthodox Buddhism was probalgated by men, that's why)....... though I detest the Buddhism lite you see in bookstores, I appreciate people like Daniel Ingram who take such rigorous systematizing as metaphorical rather than literal (he may disagree with me here). Or am I mistaken and Buddhism is a coherent and precise science to liberation with quantifiable stages and steps and hindrances......who knows?"
 
 
 
 Soh replied:

“There are three traditional methods of dealing with emotions: abandoning them, transforming them, and recognizing their nature. All three levels of Buddhist teaching, all three yanas, describe how to deal with disturbing emotions. It is never taught, on any level, that one can be an enlightened buddha while remaining involved in disturbing emotions - never. Each level deals with emotions differently.
…
Just like darkness cannot remain when the sun rises, none of the disturbing emotions can endure within the recognition of mind nature. That is the moment of realizing original wakefulness, and it is the same for each of the five poisons.
…
In any of the five disturbing emotions, we do not have to transmute the emotion into empty cognizance. The nature of the emotion already is this indivisible empty cognizance.” - Vajra Speech, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
“Why would you accept afflictive emotions? They are afflictive and are the root cause of suffering.
Either you renounce them, transform them or self-liberate them. But you certainly don't accept them. That way just leads to further rebirth in samsara.
M” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith
“We do bad things, non-virtuous things, because we are afflicted. Afflictions are never a part of oneself but they do define us as sentient beings. If you want to stop being a sentient being and start being an awakening being you have to deal with your afflictions via one of three paths I mentioned.
Why am I a sentient being and not a Buddha? Because I am subject to afflictions. How do I become a Buddha? By overcoming afflictions and attaining omniscience. How do I begin? By setting out on one of the three paths, depending on my capacity.” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith
“Mr. JK said: What you're describing is the duality found in Christianity. saying we are impure and must better ourselves.
Kyle Dixon replied: Not at all, this is literally the teaching of Dzogchen, Śrī Siṃha one of the original Dzogchen masters, who was Padmasambhava’s guru, states:
This is acceptable since a so called “primordial buddhahood” is not asserted. Full awakening is not possible without being free of the five afflictions... It is not possible for wisdom to increase without giving up afflictions. Wisdom will not arise without purifying afflictions. (Bolded and emphasized by Soh)
Likewise, Khenpo Ngachung, one of the greatest luminaries of recent times states:
In any system of sutra or tantra, without gathering the accumulations and purifying obscurations, Buddhahood can never be attained. Though the system of gathering accumulations and purifying obscurations is different, in this respect [dzogchen] is the same.
Longchenpa states:
All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence (ngo bo) of mind is purified, samsara is purified... The essence of mind is an obscuration to be given up. The essence of vidyā is pristine consciousness (ye shes) to be attained... That being so, it is very important to differentiate mind and pristine consciousness because all meditation is just that: all methods of purifying vāyu and vidyā are that; and in the end at the time of liberation, vidyā is purified of all obscurations because it is purified of the mind.
Even Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche’s father, states:
Purification happens through training on the path. We have strayed from the basis and become sentient beings. To free the basis from what obscures it, we have to train. Right now, we are on the path and have not yet attained the result. When we are freed from obscuration, then the result - dharmakāya - appears... the qualities of the result are contained in the state of the basis; yet, they are not evident or manifest. That is the difference between the basis and the result. At the time of the path, if we do not apply effort, the result will not appear.
Thus there is still much for you to understand about how Dzogchen actually works. You are only speaking of the side of the nature, the state of Dzogchen, but the side of appearances, the side of the practitioner, is not pure and perfect just yet. The two sides meet when the practitioner recognizes that nature, which is not presently known, and trains in the method and view.
5” – Kyle Dixon, 2021, krodha (u/krodha) - Reddit
“Only Buddhas rest in prajñā at all times, because they rest in “samati” which is an unfragmented samādhi which directly cognizes the nature of phenomena at all times.
The rest of us do our best to cultivate concentration, dhyāna, which then will lead to samādhi, and after time we will awaken to have the awakened equipoise which comes about due to our samādhi being infused with prajñā. However due to latent obscurations that awakened equipoise will be unstable and our prajñā will be fragmented. The more we access awakened equipoise however, the more karma in the form of kleśa and vāsanā will be burned away, and as a result, the more obscurations will be removed and diminished. The path is precisely eliminating those obscurations, the afflictive obscuration that conceives of a self and the cognitive obscuration that conceives of external objects. Buddhas have completely eliminated these two obscurations and as a result their samādhi is samati, a transcendent state of awakened equipoise beyond the three times.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021
“No. Every liberated person has realized the absence of self, i.e., emptiness, and in so doing, has ceased being under control of afflictions. Degrees of liberation are determined by remainder of afflictive obscuration one must eradicate.
Dzogchen is simply one path among many to accomplish this aim. As the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:
If someone does not dwell in words and does not dwell in names,
that is Prajñāpāramitā,
the transcendent state of buddhahood itself;
it is obtained with wisdom
and is liberated from all affliction.” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith, 2018
“No, the difference between a buddha and and sentient beings is the presence or absence of adventitious afflictions, as the Buddha states in the Hevajra tantra:
Sentient beings are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious afflictions.
When those are removed, they are buddhas.” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith, 2021

“What is the use of a realization that fails to reduce your disturbing emotions?” ~ Padmasambhava/ Guru Rinpoche
“No. Every liberated person has realized the absence of self, i.e., emptiness, and in so doing, has ceased being under control of afflictions. Degrees of liberation are determined by remainder of afflictive obscuration one must eradicate.
Dzogchen is simply one path among many to accomplish this aim. As the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:
If someone does not dwell in words and does not dwell in names,
that is Prajñāpāramitā,
the transcendent state of buddhahood itself;
it is obtained with wisdom
and is liberated from all affliction.” – Acarya Malcolm Smith, 2018
“No, the difference between a buddha and and sentient beings is the presence or absence of adventitious afflictions, as the Buddha states in the Hevajra tantra:
Sentient beings are buddhas,
though obscured by adventitious afflictions.
When those are removed, they are buddhas.” – Acarya Malcolm Smith, 2021
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My experience is similar to Kyle Dixon:
"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013
“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.
Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.
The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019
“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021
...
“Though anatta is a seal [Soh: i.e. a truth that is always already so, pertaining to the nature of mind/experience], it also requires one to arise the insight to feel liberated. When a practitioner realizes the anatta nature of manifestation, at that moment without the sense of observer, there is no negative emotions. There is only vivid sensation of all the arising as presence. When you are angry, it is a split. When you realized its anatta nature, there is just vivid clarity of all the bodily sensations. Even when there is an arising thought of something bad, it dissolves with no involvement in the content [Soh: i.e. mental contents like stories, imagination and conceptualization along with emotional involvement]. To be angry, a 'someone' must come into the content. When there is no involvement of the extra agent, there is only recoiling and self liberations. One should differentiate arising thought from the active involvement of the content a practitioner that realizes anatta is only involved fully in the vivid presence of the action, phenomena but not getting lost in content.” - John Tan, 2009

“Not creating an idea of a self frees us completely from anger. You cannot have anger unless there is a self. There is no boundless and omniscient self somewhere in the sky that created the whole universe, and there is no tangible and limited self that inhabits this bag of skin. All of reality is simply infinite dharmas that arise and disappear in accord with the laws of karma. There is not one thing standing against another.” - Zen Master John Daido Loori
“I am only interested in the way to free from worries, fear, anger, greed and ignorance.” - John Tan, 2018
“After realization of anatta, I have found that negative emotions dissolves or are attenuated.” - Soh, 2018
 
 
Richard: "Can you begin to imagine what it is like to live in a world without fear, for example? It is the extinction of ‘me’ in ‘my’ entirety that results in a total and utter dissolution of fear itself. There is no fear here, in this actual world where I live. Not even disquietude, uneasiness, nervousness or apprehension, let alone anxiety, angst, fear, terror, horror or dread. There is no fear in a flower, a tree, an ashtray, an armchair, a rock ... only sentient beings experience fear. Fear is affective; it is an emotion, a passion, and as such is not actual. Fear is a feeling, not a fact.
It is an eminently sensible way to live."


.....
 
 
Actual Freedom Richard:
This is my position: we are all fellow human beings who find ourselves here in the world as it was when we were born. We find war, murder, torture, rape, domestic violence and corruption to be endemic ... we notice that it is intrinsic to the human condition ... we set out to discover why this is so. We find sadness, loneliness, sorrow, grief, depression and suicide to be a global incidence ... and we gather that it is also inherent to the human condition ... and we want to know why. We report to each other as to the nature of our discoveries for we are all well-meaning and seek to find a way out of this mess that we have landed in. Whether one believes in re-incarnation or not, we are all living this particular life for the very first time, and we wish to make sense of it. It is a challenge and the adventure of a life-time to enquire and to uncover, to seek and to find, to explore and to discover. All this being alive business is actually happening and we are totally involved in living it out ... whether we take the back seat or not, we are all still doing it.
I, for one, am not taking the back seat.
 

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